Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?

[Megorova]

22 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Are you 100% sure that the Prince Dany saw dying was Rhaegar? And not say a future vision of Aegon,or fAegon if you are on that side of the fence meeting the same fate? He seemed very intent to right Targ defeats.

 

22 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Dany saw Rhaegar in one of her visions at HOTU,remember? The whole " will you make a song for him".Yet she doesn't identify the dying prince as Rhaegar.She also doesn't identify the name spoken by said dying prince as Lyanna. This would be a nice reveal if we didn't get the story of Rhaegar supposedly kidnapping Lyanna since book one. GRRM is hiding nothing here except a misdirection. We have all heard the story of how Rheagar died,so naturally we assume that who Dany saw must be him.But those little red flags are indicators that "The when" is not what we think it is.

 

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not that particular quote no but the general line of though of which i completely understand. Textually, that all could be seen as evidence. Except if you consider that even the Warlocks told her that some visions were false. How do we know which was false, or how does Dany know? Why should i trust her visions any more that i should trust Mel's or any one else?

 

20 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well that's one way to interpret it all but hardly the only way to interpret that all, let alone whether a person should actually trust any of it. And why would Viserys have mentioned Rhaegars eyes among all the other random stuff he talked about. It's not like they lacked for time. This is still the same problem Melisandre has and what others warn about. Trusting visions and your interpretations of them. Mel thinks she's right, Morqorro thinks he's right, and so on. So your more right than any of these characters too? I just think this might be the same mistake we're all making. They are visions, and nothing more. Not history or eye witness accounts from people who were there.

I was writing a post in another thread, and suddenly deciphered GRRM's code for those visions in House of Undying, they should be placed in a slightly different order, and then they will be chronological.

First of all this is Rhaego's description from Dany's dream, after she gave birth to her baby, AGOT, Dany IX:

Quote

Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds.

And this is her vision from House of Undying, ACOK, Dany IV:

Quote

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

I had a theory that Rhaego's mission is to unite both religions - followers of R'hllor and followers of Stallion. His birth was predicted by both - dosh khaleen in Vaes Dothrak, and Red Priests in Asshai. According to those prophecies he is the Prince that was promised, and the Stallion that will mount the world. Thus fiery stallion is a sigil that combines fire of R'hllor and stallion deity of Dothraki. Add together this lord's banner with fiery stallion, his tall height, skin and hair color, and it's obvious that the person in both of Dany's visions is the same person - Dany's son Rhaego.

Even if the Undying were lying (but by the end of my post, with all quotes of that visions, you'll see that they didn't lied), first of visions with Rhaego Dany had many months prior arriving to Qarth, so that vision had NOTHING to do with Undying, nevertheless she saw in that vision the same person as in her vision, that she had later in the House of Undying.

Next - based on sequence of Dany's vision in House of Undying, that vision with lord beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, is a vision of a future. Dany sees three visions, and then again three more visions, and after that three more. ACOK, Dany IV:

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo.

1.1. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

1.2. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

1.3. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . .

mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

2.1. Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

2.2. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

2.3. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

. . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .

3.1. Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

3.2. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

3.3. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

. . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Based on this sequences -

• first visions depicts recent events:

1.1. death of Viserys,

2.1. Stannis with his magic sword (either at Dragonstone, when Melisandre gave it to him, or after victory over Mance, at The Wall),

3.1. Dany in Vaes Dothrak (going to bath after eating stallion's heart, or maybe it's a vision from her wedding night);

• second vision is from the future:

1.2. grown up Rhaego,

2.2. Mummers Dragon (fAegon),

3.2. dead man on a ship (someone connected to Jon and Dany);

• third vision is from the past:

1.3. Rhaegar's death,

2.3. (don't know what could be this one, but based on two others, this one also should be from the past, the only clue is that it happened before Melisandre gave red sword to Stannis, or before Stannis defeated Mance),

3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.)

Thus chronological order of those visions - third, first, second.

And if those events are placed in correct order, then there is seen a pattern in them:

- Rhaegar's death, Viserys' death, future of Rhaego - Targaryens or dragonblood;

- a beast from smoking tower, red sword of Stannis, Mummers dragon - false things or fakes;

- blue flower on The Wall (probably Jon Snow), Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship - ?

So we have Jon and Dany, and some unknown man. Probably it's not Theon, or one of Ironborn, probably this man is somehow connected to either love, or a prophecy about three dragon heads. Three visions from first two sequences had obvious connection between them - dragon blood in first, and a lie in the second. So there must be something like that, that connects together Jon/blue flower, Dany, and this third man.

Edit: 2.3.

Smoking tower - Tower of Joy, that was destroyed by Ned. Jon Snow is flying stone beast, breathing shadow fire. Not a dragon but a beast, because he is half-dragon half-wolf. Stone because he is binded by a lie of his birth, he is dormant as dragon. And thus he is one of the dragons that Dany will wake from the stone. Not only three of literal dragons from stone eggs, but also Jon Snow. And the last vision from the past, is from the same distant past as Rhaegar's death, not from recent events when Jon just arrived to The Wall. So this vision about blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, is Jon living in Winterfell, in a hostile environment, or more like in cold towards him environment. Starks gave Jon a small place/chink to grow in their family.

 

So near the end of her visit to Undying, Dany saw 9 visions, and 7 of them already happened. Visions that she saw prior that, also followed the same pattern: 1. recent event, 2. future, 3. more distant past:

Quote

1.

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

2.

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

3.

She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. “Little princess, there you are,” he said in his gruff kind voice. “Come,” he said, “come to me, my lady, you’re home now, you’re safe now.” His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He’s dead, he’s dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

Though next visions had a different pattern - past and more distant past, and there was no third vision (unless Rhaegar saying that the dragon has three heads is a vision of a future, and a sad song in the end will be Prince's song of Ice and Fire):

Quote

Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look.

1.

Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on.

2.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.

3.

“The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, it's not just about their preferred hobbies. It's about their greater parallels from the Tourney and other characteristics that Mirror Loras and Renly to Arthur and Rhaegar

Wait what; all those examples of KG and royalty are all gay?

You might want to Google formal fallacy to see why you are running down a blind alley

 

[Knight Of Winter]

Though one can say there's an indisputable evidence that Ned and Robert are gay

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im just not gonna deal with you if you really are going to be like this haha your not a newbie and you should know this, unless you've just been eating your own bs for so long you love the taste. 

I expect people who make claims about a work of fiction that we have both read to be able to find a passage that lead them to believe something. And that quote does not in any way negate my statement about the kingsguard and the lack of secrets in the order. In fact , it reinforces it, as Barristan is well aware that Rhaegar trusted Sir Dayne with things that he did not trust Selmy with. What those things are? We do not know yet. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Though one can say there's an indisputable evidence that Ned and Robert are gay

 

Best thread ever!

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Yes, having served four kings (if you count Joffrey) and a queen, he's certainly a first-rate authority there, in general terms.  

However, this is about the more specific question of whether (1) he really knew Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna or (2) he had just drawn a conclusion based on uncertain knowledge.  

I don't think we can know the answer to that because the canon (so typically) just isn't clear.  

She wouldn't.  

But if she didn't, then Selmy still leaped to a false conclusion, because he explicitly thinks she did -- "soon after," he thinks, as opposed to "more than a year after the baby died."

I'm actually not even sure there was a baby... or that Ashara is dead.  Selmy seems to be a tad overconfident on those points as well (though he could be right on both).

ETA: Or for that matter, whether she was even "dishonored" at Harrenhal.  All these things seem open to debate and could arise solely from rumor.

There is also deliberate ambiguity with the author, and when you combine that with the fact that he was missing a proofreader for the first 4 books and the mistakes published due to that, we can't really know exactly what is going on ever. So when a character makes a general statement like how the prince love lyanna, it makes sense that it is true, especially since the narrative that we had been given by the princes enemies has been one of rape and abuse, but someone MUCH closer says something completely different 

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

 

 

I was writing a post in another thread, and suddenly deciphered GRRM's code for those visions in House of Undying, they should be placed in a slightly different order, and then they will be chronological.

First of all this is Rhaego's description from Dany's dream, after she gave birth to her baby, AGOT, Dany IX:

And this is her vision from House of Undying, ACOK, Dany IV:

I had a theory that Rhaego's mission is to unite both religions - followers of R'hllor and followers of Stallion. His birth was predicted by both - dosh khaleen in Vaes Dothrak, and Red Priests in Asshai. According to those prophecies he is the Prince that was promised, and the Stallion that will mount the world. Thus fiery stallion is a sigil that combines fire of R'hllor and stallion deity of Dothraki. Add together this lord's banner with fiery stallion, his tall height, skin and hair color, and it's obvious that the person in both of Dany's visions is the same person - Dany's son Rhaego.

Even if the Undying were lying (but by the end of my post, with all quotes of that visions, you'll see that they didn't lied), first of visions with Rhaego Dany had many months prior arriving to Qarth, so that vision had NOTHING to do with Undying, nevertheless she saw in that vision the same person as in her vision, that she had later in the House of Undying.

Next - based on sequence of Dany's vision in House of Undying, that vision with lord beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, is a vision of a future. Dany sees three visions, and then again three more visions, and after that three more. ACOK, Dany IV:

Based on this sequences -

• first visions depicts recent events:

1.1. death of Viserys,

2.1. Stannis with his magic sword (either at Dragonstone, when Melisandre gave it to him, or after victory over Mance, at The Wall),

3.1. Dany in Vaes Dothrak (going to bath after eating stallion's heart, or maybe it's a vision from her wedding night);

• second vision is from the future:

1.2. grown up Rhaego,

2.2. Mummers Dragon (fAegon),

3.2. dead man on a ship (someone connected to Jon and Dany);

• third vision is from the past:

1.3. Rhaegar's death,

2.3. (don't know what could be this one, but based on two others, this one also should be from the past, the only clue is that it happened before Melisandre gave red sword to Stannis, or before Stannis defeated Mance),

3.3. Blue flower on The Wall (either Jon becoming Lord Commander, or arriving to The Wall.)

Thus chronological order of those visions - third, first, second.

And if those events are placed in correct order, then there is seen a pattern in them:

- Rhaegar's death, Viserys' death, future of Rhaego - Targaryens or dragonblood;

- a beast from smoking tower, red sword of Stannis, Mummers dragon - false things or fakes;

- blue flower on The Wall (probably Jon Snow), Dany in Dothraki Sea, dead man on a ship - ?

So we have Jon and Dany, and some unknown man. Probably it's not Theon, or one of Ironborn, probably this man is somehow connected to either love, or a prophecy about three dragon heads. Three visions from first two sequences had obvious connection between them - dragon blood in first, and a lie in the second. So there must be something like that, that connects together Jon/blue flower, Dany, and this third man.

 

So near the end of her visit to Undying, Dany saw 9 visions, and 7 of them already happened. Visions that she saw prior that, also followed the same pattern: 1. recent event, 2. future, 3. more distant past:

Though next visions had a different pattern - past and more distant past, and there was no third vision (unless Rhaegar saying that the dragon has three heads is a vision of a future, and a sad song in the end will be Prince's song of Ice and Fire):

 

The possible order is not the issue.The issue is when ,who and if these visions will come to past. Dany's vision of the copper lord for instance beneath a firey stallion.Ok let's say it was Rhaego...It is a vision of what might have been because he dead! Hence something that never will be.

At the end of the day what remains is that Dany gave no indication that the dying prince was the guy she saw in the room with the harp.The person she was absolutely sure was Rhaegar.

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Quotes are a bit wonky... Bolded is your reply to my reply to the second of your posts quoted here. 

First you claimed that Rhaegar told no one anything about Lyanna, and the fact is, you - or I or anyone - can't know that because we never get any accounts/recollections from any of Rhaegar's closest friends. And no, I don'r count JonCon among Rhaegar's closest friends, and Selmy even less.  

So, again, at the risk of repeating myself here, I don;t quite get the point you are trying to make. 

 

Kissedbyfire you not considering JonCon one of Rhaegar's closest friends does not alter the fact that he was close to Rhaegar.Close enough whereby fake or not they are associating fAegon/Aegon with him to give fAegon/Aegon credibility.

You also made a statement that isn't true. Dance with Dragons-The Griffin Reborn has a couple of long "sally eyed"  recollections by Joncon on Rhaegar. Even about how Elia wasn't good enough for his prince. Nothing about Lyanna.Perfect time to gripe about hiw his prince died for a flat chested tomboy.Nada.

Lastly, if there is no one in this story who could say something and don't say anything intimate about Lyanna and Rhaegar it probably because there is nothing to tell.

That be the point.

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Rhaegar gave details to members of the kingsguard, and there are no secrets within the white brotherhood. 

Ok, then please provide some secrets,any secrets he told to any said KG in his time that are still alive concerning him and Lyanna.

Or anyone who can give any,the slightest detail more than " Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna"

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

I have to say I always thought Rheagar had a more clinical feeling to his approach to attempt to sire a child on the she-wolf than affectionate. Like, she was but a means to an end he needed to use to bring about the messiah. I'm sure he may have cared for in a way but I also feel he didn't see her as the key he wouldn't have pursued her.And Lyanna, I don't know but I feel if she did run away with him, it wasn't so much she loved Rheagar but because she really didn't want to marry Robert and married the guy to show the world she is not some horse to sold to the highest bidder and ridden by that same man for the rest of her life. 

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The possible order is not the issue.

1. The issue is when ,who and if these visions will come to past.

2. Dany's vision of the copper lord for instance beneath a firey stallion.Ok let's say it was Rhaego...It is a vision of what might have been because he dead! Hence something that never will be.

3. At the end of the day what remains is that Dany gave no indication that the dying prince was the guy she saw in the room with the harp.The person she was absolutely sure was Rhaegar.

The order points out whether each vision is from the past or from the future.

1. Out of 30 visions/predictions that Dany saw/heard in THOU, 24 already happened. Some of them at that point of time were from Dany's past (such as house with red door), or past of other characters (Rhaegra's death, naming of little Aegon), but many at that point still didn't happened. Random order (those that didn't happened yet - text in bold):

1. War of Five Kings
2. Red Wedding
3. Stannis and his magic sword
4. Rhaegar's death
5. Viserys' death
6. Grown up Rhaego
7. Dead man on a ship
8. Dany in Vaes Dothrak
9. Visison with Willem Darry in house with red door
10. Blue flower on wall of ice <- could this be NOT Jon? I don't think so. (Edit: this one is probably not about Jon arriving to The Wall. This is from more distant past, when newborn Jon was brought by Ned to Winterfell, to grow amongs, cold towards Jon, family of Starks. Thus the blue flower growing in a chink on wall of ice.)
11. Mad King ordering to burn King's Landing
12. Elia and Rhaegar naming Aegon
13. Mummers dragon
14. A beast from smoking tower <- this is the only one that I don't know what it is, the clue is that it happened either prior Melisandre giving red swords to Stannis, or after Stannis defeated Mance. (Edit: Jon's birth at Tower of Joy. Beast because he is half-dragon half-wolf. Stone because he is binded by lie of his birth. In trinity of visions with this one, Dany is named slayer of lies. Thus she will reveal to Jon who he really is, she will wake dragons from stone, three literal dragons from stone eggs, and one metaphorical sleeping dragon - Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen.)
15. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.
16. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.
17. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames.
18. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.
19. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.
20. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.
21. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!”
22. three fires must you light . . . one for life
23. and one for death
24. and one to love
25. three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed
26. and one to dread
27. and one to love
28. three treasons will you know . . . once for blood
29. and once for gold
30. and once for love

2. There's no evidence that Rhaego died. In the book, aside from Mirri saying to Dany that her child is dead, no one else, besides her saw him.

Mirri said that Rhaego is dead, she also said that Dany won't bear any more children. When one of this things will be proven to be a lie, and Dany will become pregnant, will you consider then, a possibility that Rhaego is alive?

3. "Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name"

Dying prince + rubies from his chest + water = who else if not Rhaegar?

Also this vision is not from the future, it's from the past (based on two other trinitys of visions, a vision with dying prince is from the past).

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Dying prince + rubies from his chest + water = who else if not Rhaegar?

This has come up in Heresy before, after I pointed out that it's odd Dany thinks of her brother Rhaegar merely as "a dying prince" instead of, you know... "Rhaegar." 

@PrettyPig then pointed out that the "dying prince" vision actually matches this surprisingly well:

Quote

When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers.

Here you have (1) Littlefinger's "bright blood" coming from his chest (presumably ruby-ish in color) as he takes what Cat believed was (2) a "mortal" wound, while (3) in water, and then he says (4) a woman's name, and of course (5) he also loved this woman.

Now, I'm sure people will object: "Blood isn't literally rubies, and Littlefinger isn't a literal prince, and he didn't literally die." Of course those things are true, and valid objections.  

But it's still a nice job by PrettyPig coming up with an alternative nobody but her had even considered.  

[Megorova]

10 minutes ago, JNR said:

Now, I'm sure people will object: "Blood isn't literally rubies, and Littlefinger isn't a literal prince, and he didn't literally die." Of course those things are true, and valid objections.  

[PrettyPig]

18 minutes ago, JNR said:

But it's still a nice job by PrettyPig coming up with an alternative nobody but her had even considered.  

Why thank you, good ser.  

There are additional parallels worth exploring in this vision as well—the woman over whom the challenge was issued is already betrothed to another, and has no reciprocal romantic feelings for the challenger;  a pale blue favor;  a “promise me” extracted from a Stark.  

Lots going on in this brief passage, and all of it intentional.

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ok, then please provide some secrets,any secrets he told to any said KG in his time that are still alive concerning him and Lyanna.

Or anyone who can give any,the slightest detail more than " Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna"

We can't. they are all dead 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

This has come up in Heresy before, after I pointed out that it's odd Dany thinks of her brother Rhaegar merely as "a dying prince" instead of, you know... "Rhaegar." 

@PrettyPig then pointed out that the "dying prince" vision actually matches this surprisingly well:

Here you have (1) Littlefinger's "bright blood" coming from his chest (presumably ruby-ish in color) as he takes what Cat believed was (2) a "mortal" wound, while (3) in water, and then he says (4) a woman's name, and of course (5) he also loved this woman.

Now, I'm sure people will object: "Blood isn't literally rubies, and Littlefinger isn't a literal prince, and he didn't literally die." Of course those things are true, and valid objections.  

But it's still a nice job by PrettyPig coming up with an alternative nobody but her had even considered.  

 

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Why thank you, good ser.  

There are additional parallels worth exploring in this vision as well—the woman over whom the challenge was issued is already betrothed to another, and has no reciprocal romantic feelings for the challenger;  a pale blue favor;  a “promise me” extracted from a Stark.  

Lots going on in this brief passage, and all of it intentional.

Finding parallels is very useful and enjoyable when looking at the broad spectrum of the entire series of books. This parallel is awesome! I love looking at the two scenes side by side. Nice work, PrettyPig. 

However, when looking at a specific vision such as this one, the reader would be missing the message of what George is showing us by thinking "Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . ." was anything other than Rhaegar at the Trident.

 

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

Finding parallels is very useful and enjoyable when looking at the broad spectrum of the entire series of books. This parallel is awesome! I love looking at the two scenes side by side. Nice work, PrettyPig. 

However, when looking at a specific vision such as this one, the reader would be missing the message of what George is showing us by thinking "Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . ." was anything other than Rhaegar at the Trident.

 

Thanks!    Parallels are kind of my thing, I have found loads of them in this series.

While I agree that this HotU vision is probably Rhaegar/meant to imply Rhaegar, I think what is more interesting is the hidden message, the one we don’t see.   WHY did George opt to make these two scenes so similar?   What is he trying to tell us with this parallel?   When you break down Littlefinger’s duel, the core theme is unrequited love...and yet the vision of probably-Rhaegar dying at the Trident is nearly identical to that of Petyr taking his mortal wound for “only Cat”.  We are given this subtle echo for a reason.

[Chebyshov]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Why thank you, good ser.  

There are additional parallels worth exploring in this vision as well—the woman over whom the challenge was issued is already betrothed to another, and has no reciprocal romantic feelings for the challenger;  a pale blue favor;  a “promise me” extracted from a Stark.  

Lots going on in this brief passage, and all of it intentional.

Definitely interesting, and I'm always glad when something is brought up that makes me reconsider it. But like others I will say the context makes it pretty clear, and not sure what subverting the implication would really accomplish, at all. Unless it's to make a grander point about no one really giving a shit about the women in these cases, which I daresay we've gotten the message by now.

With this thread in general...

1. I can't believe how many people take Barry "dumb women prefer hot guys to nice guys" Selmy's account of anything at face-value. Dude has intense patriarchal POV bias, and his conception of Rhaegar "choosing love" would be part of that. As others have pointed out, those two were not particularly close at all.
2. I feel like the concept of bisexuality is eluding many people. 
3. What would Martin be attempting to accomplish by hinting at a love story between two men through nothing other than parallel and buried implication? What does this add to the story? If it's about Rhaegar being a tad cynical in his approach to Lyanna, why is sexuality a part of that over his already established interest in prophecy? Is this making some point about in-verse homosexuality, and if so, how would we expect this to become explicated?

It's not a bad shade to the tale or anything (and I'm 100% team Ned had a big ol' crush on Robert, for the record), but IMO something this veiled is a little wanting.

[JNR]

19 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

WHY did George opt to make these two scenes so similar?   What is he trying to tell us with this parallel?

We might similarly ask: "What would Dany think, if she had seen a vision of Littlefinger and Brandon?"

This is an important question to ask because Dany's mind is the lens through which the text comes to us.  What we read is what Dany thinks, and not an objective reality.  

So here's what she thinks:

Quote

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

This is curious phrasing on Dany's part, because if she had seen Rhaegar dying, I would have expected something more like this:

Quote

Her brother Rhaegar was struck a mortal blow in the chest by a huge man who could only be the Usurper.  As rubies flew from his black breastplate, he sank to his knees in the water and because he was wearing a helm to protect his head, there was no earthly way she could hear anything he murmured, or even that he was murmuring anything, let alone a woman's name.

So... first... I still agree that it was probably Rhaegar, not Littlefinger.  

But I note that Dany would have thought Littlefinger was dying, because that's exactly what Cat thought too, and she was there and saw it.

She might have thought Littlefinger was a prince just based on the way he was dressed.  That she thought the wounded figure was a prince doesn't mean he had to be a prince.

I note that Dany would have been far more likely to hear Littlefinger was murmuring something than in Rhaegar's case... where the odds would be nearly zero because it was a huge battle and unlike Littlefinger, Rhaegar surely would have been wearing a helm.

I note that Dany could conceivably have been mistaken about the rubies, and instead of rubies looking like drops of blood, it was drops of blood looking like rubies.   (This seems unlikely to me, but it's still possible.)

I note that Dany did not refer to Rhaegar as Rhaegar, but instead used the odd generic term "a dying prince."

I then file all this away for future reference if needed, not having been convinced it was really Littlefinger, but aware of the possibility.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

What we read is what Dany thinks, and not an objective reality.  

So here's what she thinks:

Quote

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

This is curious phrasing on Dany's part, because if she had seen Rhaegar dying, I would have expected something more like this:

But it's not what she "thinks". It's a shade if the evening induced vision. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Petyr isn't even figuratively a prince. He is literally a lowborn descendant of a foreign sellsword. Over a decade and a half later, Brandon is dead, Catelyn is dead, and Petyr is neither dead nor dying, no matter how mortal Catelyn may have thought the wound he took from Brandon looked at the time. The last and only wound whose location is given to us, the wound Catelyn thought mortal, was below Petyr's ribs, not chest. Whatever similarities one may think they see, it is absurd to suggest that Dany is being described as seeing Brandon and Petyr duel.

But I guess nobody should be surprised at how enticing such crackpottery and fan-fiction is to some considering the reality of Twilight fan-fiction turned 50 Shades of Grey.

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

We can't. they are all dead 

That be the point ,they would have nothing worth adding to some deluded story created in the minds of people who listen to intently to the fanciful tales of singers.

We haven't heard details about a so called love affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna because there is nothing to tell.

This is a staple gossip of Westeros.We have people who assume Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and we have people who assumed he ran off with her.There would be nothing to have someone giving a they heard Rhaegar said or Lyanna said. or someone who saw them together and just say something whereby it can be analysed.

Yet the visions we get of this guy that was soooooo in love with Lyanna reveal something else:

"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . ."

 

The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

 

Plus another guy griping about how the same wife didn't deserve him, all because he was in love with him.Same guy who is still alive and completely mum on a so called relationship with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The thing that almost everyone knows,has absolutely no one who can give anything regarding them.

 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

The order points out whether each vision is from the past or from the future.

1. Out of 30 visions/predictions that Dany saw/heard in THOU, 24 already happened. Some of them at that point of time were from Dany's past (such as house with red door), or past of other characters (Rhaegra's death, naming of little Aegon), but many at that point still didn't happened. Random order (those that didn't happened yet - text in bold):

1. War of Five Kings
2. Red Wedding
3. Stannis and his magic sword
4. Rhaegar's death
5. Viserys' death
6. Grown up Rhaego
7. Dead man on a ship
8. Dany in Vaes Dothrak
9. Visison with Willem Darry in house with red door
10. Blue flower on wall of ice <- could this be NOT Jon? I don't think so. (Edit: this one is probably not about Jon arriving to The Wall. This is from more distant past, when newborn Jon was brought by Ned to Winterfell, to grow amongs, cold towards Jon, family of Starks. Thus the blue flower growing in a chink on wall of ice.)
11. Mad King ordering to burn King's Landing
12. Elia and Rhaegar naming Aegon
13. Mummers dragon
14. A beast from smoking tower <- this is the only one that I don't know what it is, the clue is that it happened either prior Melisandre giving red swords to Stannis, or after Stannis defeated Mance. (Edit: Jon's birth at Tower of Joy. Beast because he is half-dragon half-wolf. Stone because he is binded by lie of his birth. In trinity of visions with this one, Dany is named slayer of lies. Thus she will reveal to Jon who he really is, she will wake dragons from stone, three literal dragons from stone eggs, and one metaphorical sleeping dragon - Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen.)
15. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible.
16. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.
17. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames.
18. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.
19. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.
20. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.
21. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!”
22. three fires must you light . . . one for life
23. and one for death
24. and one to love
25. three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed
26. and one to dread
27. and one to love
28. three treasons will you know . . . once for blood
29. and once for gold
30. and once for love

2. There's no evidence that Rhaego died. In the book, aside from Mirri saying to Dany that her child is dead, no one else, besides her saw him.

Mirri said that Rhaego is dead, she also said that Dany won't bear any more children. When one of this things will be proven to be a lie, and Dany will become pregnant, will you consider then, a possibility that Rhaego is alive?

3. "Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name"

Dying prince + rubies from his chest + water = who else if not Rhaegar?

Also this vision is not from the future, it's from the past (based on two other trinitys of visions, a vision with dying prince is from the past).

This tells me he is dead.

"He never lived, my princess. The women say …" He faltered, and Dany saw how the flesh hung loose on him, and the way he limped when he moved.

"Tell me. Tell me what the women say.

"Monstrous. Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.Mirri is an eye witness,she was also the woman who brought him into the world dead.Women who were around and saw gossiped about how messed up the child was.

 

This tells me he is dead.

"This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me."

"The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

The fact that there are now three dragons flying around tell me he is dead as Disco my friend.

 

Mirri in attempting to keep this prophecy from happening,made sure it will by her actions.

 

Mirri told Dany:

The words of Mirri Maz Duur rang in her head. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before. The meaning was plain enough; Khal Drogo was as like to return from the dead as she was to bear a living child. But there are some secrets she could not bring herself to share, even with a husband, so she let Hizdahr zo Loraq keep his hopes."

Though Dany accepts this as her fate all i see are loopholes in her prophecy.Ever heard GRRM's story about the man that heard a prophecy about his death;tried to prevent it and it unfolded in the most hilarious and unlikely way?

Everything could unfold as Mirri says ,but probably not literally.

Per the slides of HOTU

Visions in this story don't work like that...It never shows the entire picture nor the context.It is up to us to extract the elements that don't jive.

1.Warning to Dany that she will see see days gone by,days to come and things that never will be.

That isn't just a throw away warning.

 

2.@Megorova, Dany does not identify the dying prince as the person with the harp whom she was absolutely sure was Rhaegar.

Dying prince is dying prince to her, and harp dude is Rhaegar.

She has heard the story of how Rhaegar died and even after seeing that slide of dying prince she still doesn't make that connection people one here are making.

She has seen harp dude,mistook him for Viserys because of the resembelance, and based on that drew the conclusion that harp dude must be Rhaegar.Selmy then added more to it by confirming that Rhaegar played the harp.

She saw dying prince, has the stories of how Rhaegar died, saw harp dude and declared him Rhaegar.

So i conclude that from Dany's point of view,dying prince is just that,but what he isn't is her brother Rhaegar -aka harp dude.

As to who he is,he's,probably fAegon/Aegon.

 

5 hours ago, JNR said:

This has come up in Heresy before, after I pointed out that it's odd Dany thinks of her brother Rhaegar merely as "a dying prince" instead of, you know... "Rhaegar." 

@PrettyPig then pointed out that the "dying prince" vision actually matches this surprisingly well:

Here you have (1) Littlefinger's "bright blood" coming from his chest (presumably ruby-ish in color) as he takes what Cat believed was (2) a "mortal" wound, while (3) in water, and then he says (4) a woman's name, and of course (5) he also loved this woman.

Now, I'm sure people will object: "Blood isn't literally rubies, and Littlefinger isn't a literal prince, and he didn't literally die." Of course those things are true, and valid objections.  

But it's still a nice job by PrettyPig coming up with an alternative nobody but her had even considered.  

 That's a nice example of repetitiveness.