Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

If (per canon) their destriers were circling within arms' reach of each other, and (per canon) Robert slammed his giant warhammer into Rhaegar's chest, crushing it, and (per canon) Robert's spike destroyed Rhaegar's heart...

...I think we can easily guess that Rhaegar died instantly and fell off his horse (no longer being able to balance).  

What "we can easily guess", and what Robert actually said, are two mutually contradictory things. Assuming that "spike through his heart" is true, and "died at my feet" is not, is blatant cherry picking from the middle of one sentence.

[JNR]

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

She just saw a guy that looked like Viserys and concluded it must be Rhaegar.When Selmy told her about the harp she was absolutely sure. 

So she's going to ignore armour and the way in which this guy died and just refer to him as "dying prince?"

Yes, this is another interesting point.

The sequence of HOTU visions is that Dany gets the one of Rhaegar with Elia first.  The dying prince is later.

With the first one, Rhaegar/Elia, Dany is very quick to identify Rhaegar as Rhaegar.  Right in the text, we get:

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

And we know from her discussion with Jorah later that she was at this time actively -- even insistently-- identifying him as Rhaegar in her mind:

Quote

Dany could not let it go. "His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I'm certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings."

So it's very surprising that if she saw Rhaegar again, she would not again identify him as Rhaegar, and instead we would just get the phrase "a dying prince."

[JNR]

8 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

What "we can easily guess", and what Robert actually said, are two mutually contradictory things. Assuming that "spike through his heart" is true, and "died at my feet" is not, is blatant cherry picking from the middle of one sentence.

What you call cherry-picking, I would just call a basic knowledge of anatomy and physics. 

If Robert slammed his giant spiked warhammer into Rhaegar's heart, that was game over for Rhaegar.  

In other words, Rhaegar did not flip backwards off his horse, land on his feet, then sink to his knees, and then (still alive and conscious!) murmur a woman's name.  

Though if someone cares to make that case, I'm sure it will be interesting reading.  

[PrettyPig]

23 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I think that in Bob's account of what had happened to Rhaegar's "black heart" there might be some metaphors and/or other figures of speech.

 

24 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, the color is symbolic; I don't have any reason to think Rhaegar's heart was literally black.

Curious, aside from the color - I mean, no, Rhaegar's heart inside his physical body was not black - I'm curious as to what the other metaphorical application might be?

Because in the figure-of-speech sense, I personally think there's a really good chance that Bob was right on the money in his categorization of Rhaegar's "black heart".

[LynnS]

Metaphors aside,  I'm going to be very disappointed if Rhaegar doesn't turn out the way I expect.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

We don't know whether Robert's crushing blow occured while they were mounted. For Ned's part, we are explicitly told that he arrived on the scene when Rhaegar was already laying dead.

So his description is a not necessarily full account of the combat between Robert and Rhagar by someone who did not necessarily witness the full combat. 

And the app confirms that Rhaegar spoke Lyanna's name as he died. You don't have to believe it, but others need not be sensitive to your denial of its accuracy.

[Bael's Bastard]

But I could get on board with AeGriff being the guy under the stallion banner. He is trying to conquer Westeros with Bittersteel's Golden Company, in a scheme possibly cooked up by a descendant of Bittersteel, and himself not inconceivably descended from Bittersteel.

[kissdbyfire]

On 19/01/2018 at 4:38 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah you are and you are still doing it.You are still using Dayne as a qualifier for what other people may have known.For instance, i could be your best friend, and while in a bar heard your husband talking about some other woman he banged. I need be a friend far less a close friend to have known that.

So what if I am? The info we have on Rhaegar and Dayne being bff was put there by the author for a reason. And the same goes for whatever knowledge we gain from being in JonCon's head, And again, this analogy no sense at all. If someone is my best friend and overhears something about my personal life, the person "needs be a friend far less a close friend to have known that"? What? 

On 19/01/2018 at 4:38 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Yes it is obvious why JonCon is irked about Elia and not Lyanna.You are not proposing he was jealous of Elia because he wanted to marry Rhaegar? Think it through,why else would JonCon be jealous about Elia and not Lyanna the woman he suposedly ran off and gave everything up for.

What's that got to do w/ anything? And no, of course I am not proposing that, since that's not what I said. And maybe JonCon isn't jealous of Lyanna because he doesn't know much about what went down w/ R and L. 

On 19/01/2018 at 4:38 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

You are wrong again in assuming this has anything to do with who i believe to Jon's parents. We won't see eye to eye because the idea that something that everyone knows in the story has no one that actually knows anything is unbelievable.

It does though, because anything that seems to weaken R+L=J (in your opinion) could be said to strengthen other possibilities. 

And thank you for enlightening me! Now I know that my opinion on this matter is wrong because it is mine, whereas your opinion is correct because it is yours.

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 1/19/2018 at 6:13 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, Selmy, a member of the Kingsguard, who had been around the prince for his entire life. Your arguments are circular. "Because grrm wrote it it must not be true because he is a great author and he would never give away something like that" 
Now, Bob calling the prince a rapist in book one, the ambiguity of neds thought on the prince later, the story of the tourney at harrenhal leading to selmy's statement. It is a slow reveal to the inevitable conclusion that we have been talking about here for something like 165 seperate threads on the subject. 

Nope. it is a running theory, with textual evidence that fits a scenario. It is not like this thread, or numerous others posted by the op that required a huge amount of mental gymnastics and bending of the text to take an otherwise absurd notion and make it viable. 

Again, why would you assume that an author like George would have a character lay everything out when it is part of the central mystery of the novels?  

I know, this should totes be in your hearsay thread where stuff like the sexuality of the dead prince is more fitting  

Dude, when Dany asked about why Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna Selmy pretty much said he didn't know.He couldn't say what was in Rhaegar's heart.

Not to mention that would have been the perfect time for him to say anything he may have known. 

But, if you don't wish to take his word that he didn't know anything you won't take anyone else's.

You can give away the punch line to a joke that landed to soon.

In this case given that a fair majority of the characters believe Rhaegar ran off with her exactly what would be given up if said characters had something more than just rumors as the source of info.

Somehow you and a few others don't see this.If 10 people say X loved Y they better be able to give more than X loved Y.

I am so waiting for evidence that Rhaegar did Robert a solid.

I am 100% sure that this "evidence" is based on taking Jorah's statement in ways it clearly wasn't meant to go.

Ok it takes a lot more mental gymnastics for this notion.Let's be honest.

Ned's statement about Rhaegar.

Reference to Rhaegar as Baelor the Blessed.

That he was in the company of a certain group of men always ( Sacred band of Thebes) vibes I get.

And the Loras connection.

Would make his sexuality a point of curiosity.

To be honest I don't know if he was gay.I'm not sure That he was sexual.

He was true dragon- Sexless. Probably only did it because it was his duty.

But dismissing this topic because it seems to be an affront to the rose colored view of Rhaegar shared by some is ridiculous.

On 1/19/2018 at 6:23 PM, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. Nowhere does it say that she didn't recognize the dying prince. That passage of the vision is full of generic terms but they don't mean Dany doesn't identify the people/objects - if she didn't recognize the name Rhaegar whispered, she may not even have known it was a woman's name. She thinks a blue flower, but some pages later it becomes clear that she saw a blue rose. The same for Rhaegar - if she didn't know who he was, how would she know that he was a prince? Did he have a label on his back?

In case it escaped your attention, the parallel is not based solely on Jorah's comment (which I didn't bring up in this thread) - in fact, it can perfectly exist even without it.

"You are required to do nothing, least of all believe. Shut one's eyes tight or open one's arms wide, either way, one's a fool." (Flemeth)

 

Because it all went so well for the last guy who wanted to duel Rhaegar, right? If Robert injured or killed Rhaegar, do you think Aerys would care who challenged whom? And if Rhaegar won without as much as a scratch, what would Aerys do - say 'sure, son, you can keep her but you must feed her yourself'? Really? If you think so, fine, but please, next time refrain from dragging me into this.

 

Ygrain, you really expect an answer to that rather ridiculous first question you asked.So because she never said it wasn't him, it was him? I will leave you to that rationale.

If I hear a man whisper the name Sandra; even if I don't know who Sandra is I know its a woman's name.

How did Dany know it was a prince?

The same way the folks on " The Fourth Kind" knew the owl wasn't really an owl.

The same way Dany knew the blue eyed dude with no shadow was a king.

The same way she also saw a man on a throne wearing an iron crown, holding a sceptre the way a king might hold it yet she didn't refer to him as a king.

Little things like that Ygrain are beads of enlightenment.

Just the fact alone that Dany referred to "her brother" as just "a dying prince" should have light bulbs going off in the nogin.

Ok, regail me what parallel led you to believe that Rhaegar gave Robert a solid and that cost him his life.

Friend and foe were at the Trident and no one mentioned such a spectacular display from Rhaegar.

I would love to see how you came up with Rhaegar doing Robert a solid.

The parallel can exist on its own? Ygrain wtfrack?

faith : "Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." (Ambrose Bierce).

It all went so well for the....For frack sake.

In other words business as usual.Aerys would have still asked for Robert's head and the kingdom would have still been at war.Rhaegar would have just been dead sooner.

And that argument you tried about Rhaegar and Aerys not capitulating. Or not to Rhaegar keeping Lyanna.

Nonsense: Several things need to have been altered including Aerys being alive and he still would of had to deal with what to do with Lyanna.

 

On 1/20/2018 at 10:22 AM, Megorova said:

 

Actually Rhaegar and Barristan went together to Trident. So it's possible that on the way there, Rhaegar told his story - where he was all this time, with whom, and why. Especially if on the way from King's Landing to Riverlands and Trident, they were passing near Harrenhal, and Rhaegar was reminiscing about what happened there between him and Lyanna.

Though prior meeting Barristan Selmy in later books, she didn't knew that Rhaegar died, with Lyanna's name as his last words.

Mirri, not Dany, said that he was long dead.

And she lied about Rhaego, he wasn't born looking like some hybrid or half-monster. He's normal.

And I'm 90% sure that he is alive, 80% that he is one of three dragon heads, 70% that he's also in addition to being one of dragon heads, is also a Prince that was promised and second middle head of the dragon (he will become dragonrider second after Dany, while third will become Jon), 60% sure that Dany and her baby will reunite in her second or third chapter in TWOW (the other 40% is the possibility that in Vaes Dothrak she won't reunite with him, only hear from someone that he is alive, and that he is in Asshai, so she will fly to Asshai, and they will reunite there. Though maybe she will first go back to Meereen, and only then to Asshai, to take her baby back. Or maybe she will first go to Westeros, and Rhaego with Quaithe will go to 7K from Asshai, much later in the story, maybe even in ADOS book, near the end of it, for the final battle.)

I came to conclusion that last vision in a set, is from times of Robert's rebellion - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth (stone beast from smoking tower, breathing shadow flame), and blue rose is little Jon in Winterfell, not from times of his life at The Wall.

Chink in the wall of ice, is the place in Starks family, given to Jon to grow, surrounded by their coldness, never really accepted as one of them, binded by his bastard status. And blue flower is a symbol of Lyanna. Thus this vision is actually - Lyanna's child growing in Starks family, given a small (bastard) place to be among them.

But everything Dany saw in THOU was connected to her. And there's no connection between her and Bran, and probably will never be.

You lost me because you are bringing things that don't add to what we are debating.

Apart from a few people saying Rhaego is dead e.g...

Mirri- Who gave an explanation of why she did what she did. Rhaego to her was their version of Hitler.She did him in to prevent him from crushing the earth under his feet.

Jorah repeated what he heard the women in the camp whispering.

A mother's natural reaction would be to go for her child.She did, she went for the eggs.

I am not disagreeing with you about Rhaego's death I am saying visions are tricky to interpret.

I believe Rhaego soul quickened one of the dragon egg.

Danny's visions could be anywhere in the stream of time.

On 1/20/2018 at 0:33 PM, JNR said:

Yes, this is another interesting point.

The sequence of HOTU visions is that Dany gets the one of Rhaegar with Elia first.  The dying prince is later.

With the first one, Rhaegar/Elia, Dany is very quick to identify Rhaegar as Rhaegar.  Right in the text, we get:

And we know from her discussion with Jorah later that she was at this time actively -- even insistently-- identifying him as Rhaegar in her mind:

So it's very surprising that if she saw Rhaegar again, she would not again identify him as Rhaegar, and instead we would just get the phrase "a dying prince."

Exactly.I mean what is there left to be said? 

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So what if I am? The info we have on Rhaegar and Dayne being bff was put there by the author for a reason. And the same goes for whatever knowledge we gain from being in JonCon's head, And again, this analogy no sense at all. If someone is my best friend and overhears something about my personal life, the person "needs be a friend far less a close friend to have known that"? What? 

What's that got to do w/ anything? And no, of course I am not proposing that, since that's not what I said. And maybe JonCon isn't jealous of Lyanna because he doesn't know much about what went down w/ R and L. 

It does though, because anything that seems to weaken R+L=J (in your opinion) could be said to strengthen other possibilities. 

And thank you for enlightening me! Now I know that my opinion on this matter is wrong because it is mine, whereas your opinion is correct because it is yours.

 

The fact that you are makes plain your bias therefore,arguing this point with you is ...well futile.

Based on your argument that everyone who would know is dead ;the only logical conclusion is we will have to wait for.

1.Bran to pop into the Weirnet to get that reveal.

2.Someone to find a moldy parchment.

You know because that would solve everything.

We disagree on a fundamental, which is only Dayne could have known because he was Rhaegar's best friend.This already falls flat because if we are to buy everything about Rlj including toj; then how many people knew who weren't Rhaegar's best friend?Quite a few.

Other possibilities are not dependent on the streangth or weaknesses of Rlj.People didn't come up with other theories because we want to be contrary.Other theories exist because they are more probable to some.

Your opinion isn't wrong because you have it.It is wrong because it comes from a place of bias versus coming from a place that looks at the entire picture.

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/18/2018 at 4:29 PM, LynnS said:

I like this interpretation also.  What is the significance of this event to Dany?  Why is she shown this vision and why does she call him a prince?  The other possibility that comes to mind is that this is a morrow not yet made and the prince is the PtwP, Aegon.

The previous two visions are princes themselves; Viserys and we can assume Rheago and they both died.   These visions seems to be grouped together.

 

Or perhaps fAegon:

Quote

“When the lad emerged from the cabin with Lemore by his side, Griff looked him over carefully from head to heel. The prince wore sword and dagger, black boots polished to a high sheen, a black cloak lined with blood-red silk. With his hair washed and cut and freshly dyed a deep, dark blue, his eyes looked blue as well. At his throat he wore three huge square-cut rubies on a chain of black iron, a gift from Magister Illyrio. Red and black. Dragon colors. That was good. “You look a proper prince,” he told the boy. “Your father would be proud if he could see you.”

And it is interesting that Dany doesn't seem to connect the dying prince in this vision to the earlier vision she had of Rhaegar in the room with Elia and Aegon.  She apparently came to the conclusion that the first vision at least was Rhaegar:

Quote

“Dany could not let it go. “His is the song of ice and fire, my brother said. I’m certain it was my brother. Not Viserys, Rhaegar. He had a harp with silver strings.”
Ser Jorah’s frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. “Prince Rhaegar played such a harp,” he conceded. “You saw him?”
She nodded. “There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon.”

Nor does she appear to recognize the name of the woman spoken by the dying prince, yet she certainly knew about the rumor's of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna:

Quote

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?”

ETA, sorry Wolfmaid, it looks like you already covered this above.

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/20/2018 at 6:25 AM, LynnS said:

This is another vision that is wide open for interpretation. 

What exactly is a chink in the wall? 

My sense of it is that this is the Black Gate controlled by the greenseer at Whitetree. Bran describes the face as someone who has been kept alive of a thousand years.  Jon describes the weirwood at Whitetree as old and powerful. 

So I question whether the blue flower or rose as Jorah describes it, refers to Bran.  Whether or not he is actually meant to replace Bloodraven or the greenseer that controls the gate.  The blue flower growing in power by learning to access the power of the gate and the Wall.  Bran is often described as sweet.

We're told by the GoHH that the old powers are weak but they still exist and Euron mocks the drowned god as being powerless:

  Reveal hidden contents

“The Crow’s Eye has fed your Drowned God well, and he has grown fat with sacrifice. Words are wind, but blood is power. We have given thousands to the sea, and he has given us victories!”

“…Your Grace,” said Torwold Browntooth. “I have the priests. What do you want done with them?”

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

 

It seems that Bran has recieved the kiss of the Drowned God:

I think perhaps that Bran will become the new drowned god.

In addition, we also have a strange wierwood growing from a hole at the Night Fort.  So literally growing from a chink in the wall.
 

Compare Jon's vision of tree-Bran:

 

I'm glad you brought this up.  I've been perusing A Midsummer Night's Dream a bit, partly because some of the homages brought up in the thread and another.  There is a play within the play where a number of shitty actors are tasked with putting on a play about Pyramus and Thisby, a greek tragedy that was probably the major inspiration behind Romeo and Juliet.  In the story of Pyramus and Thisby, the two star-crossed lovers lived in two separate residences joined by a common wall.  They communicated with each other by speaking through a chink in the wall.

Quote

Quince:

Ay; or else one must come in with a bush of thorns and a lantern, and say he comes to disfigure or to present the person of moonshine.  Then there is another thing:  we must have a wall in the great chamber; for Pyramus and Thisby, says the story, did talk through the chink of a wall.

And indeed if you go back to the original source of the Pyramus and Thisby tale it goes into further detail of this chink in the wall:

Quote

“Contiguous dwellings held, in that fam’d town,
“Where lofty walls of stone, we learn were rais’d,
“By bold Semiramis. Their neighbouring scite,
“Acquaintance first encourag’d, — primal step
“To further intimacy: love, in time,
“Grew from this chance connection; and they long’d
“To join by lawful rites: but harsh forbade,
“Their rigid sires the union fate had doom’d.
“With equal ardor both their minds inflam’d,
“Burnt fierce; and absent every watchful spy
“By nods and signs they spoke; for close their love
“Conceal’d they kept; — conceal’d it burn’d more fierce.
 “The severing wall a narrow chink contain’d,
“Form’d when first rear’d; — what will not love espy?
“This chink, by all for ages past unseen,
“The lovers first espy’d. — This opening gave
“A passage for their voices; safely through,
“Their tender words were breath’d in whisperings soft.
“Oft punctual at their posts, — on this side she,
“And Pyramus on that; — each breathing sighs, — 
“By turns inhaling, have they mutual cry’d; — 
“Invidious wall! why lovers thus divide?
“Much were it, did thy parts more wide recede,
“And suffer us to join? were that too much
“A little opening more, and we might meet
“With lips at least. Yet grateful still we own
“Thy kind indulgence, which a passage gives,
“And amorous words conveys to loving ears.
“Thus they loquacious, though on sides diverse,
“Till night their converse stay’d; — then cry’d, adieu”

In other words, they really live in the same house, yet are divided by a wall, not allowing them to express their forbidden love.  Heh.  

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm glad you brought this up.  I've been perusing A Midsummer Night's Dream a bit, partly because some of the homages brought up in the thread and another.  There is a play within the play where a number of shitty actors are tasked with putting on a play about Pyramus and Thisby, a greek tragedy that was probably the major inspiration behind Romeo and Juliet.  In the story of Pyramus and Thisby, the two star-crossed lovers lived in two separate residences joined by a common wall.  They communicated with each other by speaking through a chink in the wall.

And indeed if you go back to the original source of the Pyramus and Thisby tale it goes into further detail of this chink in the wall:

In other words, they really live in the same house, yet are divided by a wall, not allowing them to express their forbidden love.  Heh.  

I see where you are going. LOL! 

I like the connection to speaking through a chink in the Wall or Bran's ability to speak to Jon using the power of the Black Gate.  I've often wondered about the many references to 'screaming hinges' given that the Wall is one of the hinges of the world.

 

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or perhaps fAegon:

And it is interesting that Dany doesn't seem to connect the dying prince in this vision to the earlier vision she had of Rhaegar in the room with Elia and Aegon.  She apparently came to the conclusion that the first vision at least was Rhaegar:

Nor does she appear to recognize the name of the woman spoken by the dying prince, yet she certainly knew about the rumor's of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna:

ETA, sorry Wolfmaid, it looks like you already covered this above.

No problemo, we have been beating this drum for two days but some people are refusing to accept it.

This is seen as nonsense while it seems Rhaegar dismounting to do Robert a solid after he knocked him off his horse somehow has irrefutable evidence.

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Place holder to answer these later.

you are brave to assume the planet will still be here in the future 

[wolfmaid7]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you are brave to assume the planet will still be here in the future 

Still here..Bravery has nothing to do with it.Faith is an amazing thing to live by.

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The fact that you are makes plain your bias therefore,arguing this point with you is ...well futile.

Ditto.

Quote

Based on your argument that everyone who would know is dead ;the only logical conclusion is we will have to wait for.

1.Bran to pop into the Weirnet to get that reveal.

2.Someone to find a moldy parchment.

You know because that would solve everything.

Maybe you should go back to my first reply to you, since you seem to be  misremembering what I said. Or maybe you didn't understand what I said, but either way, read that first reply again. Because I never said Dayne would be the only one who could know anything. 

Quote

We disagree on a fundamental, which is only Dayne could have known because he was Rhaegar's best friend.This already falls flat because if we are to buy everything about Rlj including toj; then how many people knew who weren't Rhaegar's best friend?Quite a few.

Read above. 

Quote

Other possibilities are not dependent on the streangth or weaknesses of Rlj.People didn't come up with other theories because we want to be contrary.Other theories exist because they are more probable to some.

Sadly, only one alternative to Jon's parentage can exist since he is not an amoeba born from spores or whatever. He has one dad and one mum, and the stronger the case for one pair, the weaker the case for other pairs. It's simple logic. 

Quote

Your opinion isn't wrong because you have it.It is wrong because it comes from a place of bias versus coming from a place that looks at the entire picture.

Edited 2 minutes ago by wolfmaid7

And LMAO.  Seriously, major chuckles. But tell you what... since this is obviously going nowhere and it's totally OT and all, let's leave it at that for now and get back to it when we have more info.

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sadly, only one alternative to Jon's parentage can exist since he is not an amoeba born from spores or whatever.

If only Jon was a single celled organism, the whole mystery of his parentage would be so much simpler... Although, then you surely would have those claiming he was actually a bacteria as opposed to being an amoeba - as would be laid out in the text.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

If only Jon was a single celled organism, the whole mystery of his parentage would be so much simpler... Although, then you surely would have those claiming he was actually a bacteria as opposed to being an amoeba - as would be laid out in the text.

You, ser, just made my day!

 

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Ditto.

Maybe you should go back to my first reply to you, since you seem to be  misremembering what I said. Or maybe you didn't understand what I said, but either way, read that first reply again. Because I never said Dayne would be the only one who could know anything. 

Read above. 

Sadly, only one alternative to Jon's parentage can exist since he is not an amoeba born from spores or whatever. He has one dad and one mum, and the stronger the case for one pair, the weaker the case for other pairs. It's simple logic. 

And LMAO.  Seriously, major chuckles. But tell you what... since this is obviously going nowhere and it's totally OT and all, let's leave it at that for now and get back to it when we have more info.

 

I don't think I was saying you said that.It seemed to me you were saying if the possibility wasn't on the level Dayne was to Rhaegar then they wouldn't.Which is saying in other words;only Dayne would have known.

I need to correct you on another thing.

There are NO alternatives to RLJ.Rlj is not canon.It, like all other theories are just that- a theory.

Until such time as GRRM reveals it.You all need to come back down to earth on this matter.This has been a major issue on this board and the reason there is conflict.

You all need to accept this, not everyone believes this theory.So not every subsequent theory will be from an RLJ mindset.

In some theories Rhaegar might be gay,none of his kids may be his etc.Give people the space to see these through ,and stop trying to crap on their theories because something else pops out to them.There will always be conflict because RLJ proponents try to stifle arguments that don't line up with the tenents of RLJ.

This should be way more fun than it is.I know what you believe,you know what I believe.It shouldn't keep you from following another's train of thought.They may need to talk it out.They may learn something new,you may learn something new.

But when many of you go down the inevitable  route your next statement implies; then you get the following:

Weakness or strength of a theory on this board is an eye of the beholder gambit that is a pointless hand  to play.

I will say RLJ is weak for X reasons; I think Y is more probable.

There will a back and forth,names will be thrown across a virtual table.Someone will make a stupid comment about other posters ability to comprehend literature.

Another stupid comment will be made about how the quantity of  people whobbelieve X vs Y makes it stronger ,and the majority in the X camp must be right because when has the majority ever been wrong?

I will then say....ehhh.

If people want to stand behind  the notion that the illogical behavior of characters  and the author is perfectly logical, because the goal they wanted to accomplish logically needed to be reached by purely illogical means.And that it being illogical is proof that it actually is logical.Then ok?

The Sealord's Cat story,,Little finger's speech to Sansa and Bloodraven's speech to Bran made it quite clear to me what this story is about.Never get caught in the throws feint.

 

[Quoth the raven,]

Rhaegar probably did go both ways.  Maybe that was why Aerys disapproved of him and always intended to disinherit him.   Even so, Rhaegar married Elia and consummated their marriage.  It was a legal marriage in every way possible.  Rhaegar was a married man and died a married man.  Rhaegar was a husband in every way that counted so his extracurricular activities is just a scandal that mean little beyond tabloid material for the King's Landing gossip columns.