Rhaegar loved Arthur and men?

[kissdbyfire]

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

We disagree on a fundamental, which is only Dayne could have known because he was Rhaegar's best friend.This already falls flat because if we are to buy everything about Rlj including toj; then how many people knew who weren't Rhaegar's best friend?Quite a few.

 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't think I was saying you said that.It seemed to me you were saying if the possibility wasn't on the level Dayne was to Rhaegar then they wouldn't.Which is saying in other words;only Dayne would have known.

Paragraph in question is pasted above. For the last time, I never said only Dayne could have known nor that there's no one left standing that could know.

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I need to correct you on another thing.

Course you do!

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There are NO alternatives to RLJ.Rlj is not canon.It, like all other theories are just that- a theory.

Do you realise these two statements are completely contradictory? Maybe that's part of the issue... you mean to say one thing but it comes out differently.

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Until such time as GRRM reveals it.You all need to come back down to earth on this matter.This has been a major issue on this board and the reason there is conflict.

Please, enlighten me further... Who exactly are you referring to when you say "you all"? 

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You all need to accept this, not everyone believes this theory.So not every subsequent theory will be from an RLJ mindset.

Again, who is "you all"? Those who believe in R+L=J and do not accept the possibility that they are wrong? Or is it anyone who believes in R+L=J? I'd say there's a big difference there. Generalisations like this don't help at all. 

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In some theories Rhaegar might be gay,none of his kids may be his etc.Give people the space to see these through ,and stop trying to crap on their theories because something else pops out to them.There will always be conflict because RLJ proponents try to stifle arguments that don't line up with the tenents of RLJ.

How am I - or anyone else for that matter - not giving others space? This is an open forum, where anyone can join in any discussion they want provided they stick to forum rules. That means there is space for everyone to discuss and engage in whatever topics they want. Now, if you want the type of space where no one will ever challenge you and your ideas, you need a more private sandbox to play in. 

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This should be way more fun than it is.I know what you believe,you know what I believe.It shouldn't keep you from following another's train of thought.They may need to talk it out.They may learn something new,you may learn something new.

You think you know what I believe would be more accurate. And don't worry, I can follow your train of thought just fine. 

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But when many of you go down the inevitable  route your next statement implies; then you get the following:

Weakness or strength of a theory on this board is an eye of the beholder gambit that is a pointless hand  to play.

No, weakness or strength of a theory is not solely in the eye of the beholder. Sure, if I say something outrageously crackpot w/ no evidence to back it up like... "dragons are a master alien race who landed on Westeros after having flown across the galaxy on their weirwood spaceships", then yes, it's a toss up and totally in the eye of the beholder. But proper theories on mysteries in the novels do have strengths and weaknesses, and some are much more likely than others. 

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I will say RLJ is weak for X reasons; I think Y is more probable.

There will a back and forth,names will be thrown across a virtual table.Someone will make a stupid comment about other posters ability to comprehend literature.

Another stupid comment will be made about how the quantity of  people whobbelieve X vs Y makes it stronger ,and the majority in the X camp must be right because when has the majority ever been wrong?

I will then say....ehhh.

Yes, all these things happen. Always have, always will. You just questioned my ability to follow your train of thought, for instance. 

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If people want to stand behind  the notion that the illogical behavior of characters  and the author is perfectly logical, because the goal they wanted to accomplish logically needed to be reached by purely illogical means.And that it being illogical is proof that it actually is logical.Then ok?

I'm not sure what you're on about here... b/c sometimes what one person considers a logical deduction will seem illogical to someone else. "It's all in where you're standing". That is just as it should be, imo. Variety, the spice of life and all that.

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The Sealord's Cat story,,Little finger's speech to Sansa and Bloodraven's speech to Bran made it quite clear to me what this story is about.Never get caught in the throws feint.

 

Good for you!

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

How am I - or anyone else for that matter - not giving others space? This is an open forum, where anyone can join in any discussion they want provided they stick to forum rules. That means there is space for everyone to discuss and engage in whatever topics they want. Now, if you want the type of space where no one will ever challenge you and your ideas, you need a more private sandbox to play in. 

Can I weigh in here?  Kissbyfire, I have a great respect for you and many others who subscribe to RLJ.  I very much enjoy reading for commentary and we agree on quite a few things when it comes to the moral equivalency arguments.  I certainly don't think you lack intelligence or courtesy.  I'm not in a position to judge your logic or reasons for the choices you make and I don't need an explanation.  

I do have an issue with some members forcing their opinions on those who don't agree with them on RLJ.  This includes monitoring the boards for any discussion and sabotaging the thread by making comments that attack the intelligence of the person commenting.  That wakes the dragon lady in me and I can give as good as I get.   Some members are incredibly obsessive about it and I will argue with statements that RLJ is the only solution or it's the most popular, so therefore the only solution.

I am still discovering things in the text that make me question the prophecies, assumptions etc.  And yet, if I mention any of it; I'm exposed to sullen comments that I'm bored or making shit up; so I should be dismissed.  There is a lot of making shit up, especially with RLJ. Even you must concede that Lyanna wasn't lying a bed of roses in the ToJ.  

RLJ holds together if you agree with all the assumptions and I don't.  For that offense, I'm subject to nauseating commentary from those who are themselves bored and have nothing to add of any value except to make an assault on my intelligence.

The character of the forum has changed quite a bit from three years ago.  There doesn't seem to be much in the way of discovery or open inquiry and that is perhaps in part because there is no new material.  It's not my opinion that we're smarter than George and have figured everything out.  In fact, I'm pretty sure George is smarter than most of us.  When he constructs a puzzle, it's not easy to figure out.  That drives me crazy but it's also very satisfying to put even a few pieces together.  As of late, I've discovered that some of those pieces were included in the Forsaken Chapter.  

So the question becomes: should I post that information here or go somewhere else?         

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Can I weigh in here?

Please. I always enjoy reading your posts, even when I don't agree w/ you. And I do agree w/ you more often than not.

 

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

  Kissbyfire, I have a great respect for you and many others who subscribe to RLJ.  I very much enjoy reading for commentary and we agree on quite a few things when it comes to the moral equivalency arguments.  I certainly don't think you lack intelligence or courtesy.  I'm not in a position to judge your logic or reasons for the choices you make and I don't need an explanation.  

Ditto!

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I do have an issue with some members forcing their opinions on those who don't agree with them on RLJ.  This includes monitoring the boards for any discussion and sabotaging the thread by making comments that attack the intelligence of the person commenting. 

I do have an issue w/ anyone trying to force anything on anyone, anywhere - real or virtual! And yup. monitoring topics to try and sabotage a thread just because you disagree w/ its premise seems incredibly childish and more than a little idiotic. But if we are to have a truly open space for discussion, I suppose we will have to put up w/ people like that. At leaset these party-poopers are not the majority group.  

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That wakes the dragon lady in me and I can give as good as I get.   Some members are incredibly obsessive about it and I will argue with statements that RLJ is the only solution or it's the most popular, so therefore the only solution.

I understand. Can we agree that there is a huge difference between those who fully believe in R+L=J but acknowledge they may be surprised and those who support R+L=J and are dead certain there is zero chances they are wrong? And there's also a big difference between the latter group and those who believe the exact same thing, but don't act like idiotic bullies. Seems to me the real problem is not what one believes in, nor how sure they are of it, but rather whether they're arseholes or not! 

I'd also like to add that behaving like an arsehole is something that we see on both sides of the R+L=J issue. 

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I am still discovering things in the text that make me question the prophecies, assumptions etc.  And yet, if I mention any of it; I'm exposed to sullen comments that I'm bored or making shit up; so I should be dismissed.  There is a lot of making shit up, especially with RLJ. Even you must concede that Lyanna wasn't lying a bed of roses in the ToJ.  

RLJ holds together if you agree with all the assumptions and I don't.  For that offense, I'm subject to nauseating commentary from those who are themselves bored and have nothing to add of any value except to make an assault on my intelligence.

I'm still discovering new things too, even after all these years. And that's a fine testament to Martin's skill and talent. As you know, I do  believe in R+L=J, even if I don't agree w/ all the assumptions. I know you don't support R+L=J. And yet, that has never stopped me from thoroughly enjoying your posts and well-thought comments and ideas. As I said above, I think the problem is not so much what one believes in, but rather what type of person/poster they are.

 

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The character of the forum has changed quite a bit from three years ago. 

I can't say that I've noticed that, but I took a few breaks over the years and maybe I just didn't notice it. 

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of discovery or open inquiry and that is perhaps in part because there is no new material.  It's not my opinion that we're smarter than George and have figured everything out.  In fact, I'm pretty sure George is smarter than most of us.  When he constructs a puzzle, it's not easy to figure out.  That drives me crazy but it's also very satisfying to put even a few pieces together.  As of late, I've discovered that some of those pieces were included in the Forsaken Chapter.  

So the question becomes: should I post that information here or go somewhere else?         

I am assuming you're really asking my opinion and not being sarcastic (sorry, but sometimes it's  hard to tell w/o the benefit of voice and expressions. No offence meant). So, my answer is, that sounds juicy and interesting. I hope you decide to post it here.

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I understand. Can we agree that there is a huge difference between those who fully believe in R+L=J but acknowledge they may be surprised and those who support R+L=J and are dead certain there is zero chances they are wrong? And there's also a big difference between the latter group and those who believe the exact same thing, but don't act like idiotic bullies. Seems to me the real problem is not what one believes in, nor how sure they are of it, but rather whether they're arseholes or not! 

Thank you kissdbyfire.  I always know I can get an open and honest hearing from you and yes we can agree on this absolutely.

Edit: No, I wasn't being sarcastic.    

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Paragraph in question is pasted above. For the last time, I never said only Dayne could have known nor that there's no one left standing that could know.

Course you do!

Do you realise these two statements are completely contradictory? Maybe that's part of the issue... you mean to say one thing but it comes out differently.

Please, enlighten me further... Who exactly are you referring to when you say "you all"? 

Again, who is "you all"? Those who believe in R+L=J and do not accept the possibility that they are wrong? Or is it anyone who believes in R+L=J? I'd say there's a big difference there. Generalisations like this don't help at all. 

How am I - or anyone else for that matter - not giving others space? This is an open forum, where anyone can join in any discussion they want provided they stick to forum rules. That means there is space for everyone to discuss and engage in whatever topics they want. Now, if you want the type of space where no one will ever challenge you and your ideas, you need a more private sandbox to play in. 

You think you know what I believe would be more accurate. And don't worry, I can follow your train of thought just fine. 

No, weakness or strength of a theory is not solely in the eye of the beholder. Sure, if I say something outrageously crackpot w/ no evidence to back it up like... "dragons are a master alien race who landed on Westeros after having flown across the galaxy on their weirwood spaceships", then yes, it's a toss up and totally in the eye of the beholder. But proper theories on mysteries in the novels do have strengths and weaknesses, and some are much more likely than others. 

Yes, all these things happen. Always have, always will. You just questioned my ability to follow your train of thought, for instance. 

I'm not sure what you're on about here... b/c sometimes what one person considers a logical deduction will seem illogical to someone else. "It's all in where you're standing". That is just as it should be, imo. Variety, the spice of life and all that.

Good for you!

 

@Kissed By Fire. This is the premise that started this debate with you and I.

"And no, I don'r count JonCon among Rhaegar's closest friends, and Selmy even less."

"My point is, JonCon was "close" to Rhaegar, yes, but not inner circle close like Dayne"

"I'm saying that only those (few) who were as close to Rhaegar as Dayne was would know anything about Lyanna, and JonCon was not one of them."

The above are your statements.So, what was I to conclude from these statements? You tell me.

Sigh, its not contradictory and again you are defaulting to a tactic prevalent among RLJ proponents; somehow others have some type of deffect in either cognitive functions or literary understanding.It may not be intentional, but its how it comes off.

So, what exactly is contradictory about the following statement?

Rlj is NOT canon,yet most of Rlj proponents argue as If it is.That is not a contradiction,but a fact.

This thread is a great example.The OP proposed a topic of discussion.A topic that isn't farfetched as there are elements that could lend credence to this being a possibility.

Instead,of speaking about that only what we got are people defending tenents of RLJ that this topic calls into question.

There are quite a few people on here that don't subscribe to Rlj.Yet,you don't see them on threads trampling on others ideas just because it calls into question some elements of Rlj

This thread is about if Rhaegar might be gay and or had a thing for Arthur.

Your right "you all" was a generalization.I should have said "most of RLJ proponents" which is more accurate.

This is an example of not giving others a space:

"Crackpots and fan fiction aside."

"wish people would have this kind of insight into the novels instead of the blind theory chucking we have now"

"It would be one thing if people were actually discussing things that are stated, implied, or can be shown to be in any way hinted at in the books, but threads like these essentially just take the names of characters from the books and come up with their own stories that have absolutely nothing to do with the characters or books. Hence, why threads like this are just poor crackpots and fan fiction in the vein of Fifty Shades of Grey."

I can go on and on across several threads.I will be  honest.Someone like me sees this as a form of attempted censorship.And I will snip at things like this.I apologize not.

I believe certain animals and trees/other beings in this story are self aware.I believe they have motives that are universal and or self serving.

Context of what I percieve IS the eye of the beholder.Therefore, I don't find the notion of Dragons as a master alien race crackpot. Elements in such a theory may  not what I believe.I may find it not probable and give my reasons why.Again eye of the beholder.

When did I "question" your ability to follow my train of thought? 

That may be my fault because I didn't explain it well or your fault because an inherent bias prevents you.

Talking it out is a great way to come to a new understanding or agree to disagree.

" sometimes what someone considers illogical will be logical to someone else"

Exactly, the eye of the beholder.

A lot of these threads would be a lot more fun.People would figure a lot more things out...For good or ill if people accepted

1.RLJ is NOT canon

2.Not everyone subscribes to it and thus not everyone's theories may have it as a foundation.

3.What ever these theories are (Rlj including) has no bearing on what the actual truth is.So we should just enjoy discussions until GRRM answers it for us.

4.The eye of the beholder.Do you know how many times in interviews GRRM has reference fans may see it this way or that.Its for the fans to decide etc.

I know what you believe regarding Jon's parentage.You know what I believe what regarding Jon's parentage.

None of that should matter with respect to this OP.

There are a couple of things when looked at differently do support a closer look at his sexuality.

 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/18/2018 at 10:38 AM, PrettyPig said:

 

 

You know, I realize that some of this is meant tongue-in-cheek and emphasized for effect, but I was thinking about this legendary battle in the waters of the Trident and the parallels to Littlefinger’s duel with Brandon, and it made me wonder...

Rhaegar seemed to believe that he would return from the battle at the Trident, per his comment to Jaime.   Clearly he wasn’t expecting a meet-and-greet with Bob’s mighty warhammer.    

Littlefinger squared off with the older and larger and more skilled/better armored Brandon Stark.   

Looking at the similarities between the two events, I believe at least one of the following two things must be true:

1) both challengers, as the underdog, believed he had found a way to cheat, and best his larger/stronger opponent through trickery (see:  Loras Tyrell vs The Mountain);  both challengers were wrong.

2) both challengers expected to face off against a STARK.  Only Rhaegar was wrong.   Basically, Thor expected to fight Iron Man, but the Hulk showed up instead.  Oops!  

You like mirrors?

Sansa is engaged and set to wed Joffery and the family attends the Hands Tourney in Kings Landing.

Lyanna Stark is engaged to Robert Baratheon and Brandon Stark is engaged to Caitlynn Tully. We don’t know which wedding was to happen first of if a joint wedding. Family attends the Tourney of Harrenhal.

 

Sansa who is engaged to Joffery is given a Rose by Loras of whom she is smitten with, unknowing that Loras is in love with Renly Baratheon. Sansa is later taken by Peter Baelish.

Lyanna Stark who is engaged to Robert is given a Rose by Rhaegar of whom she is smitten with, (Unknowing that Rhaegar is in love with Loras? Lyanna is taken by Mance Rayder, the King Beyond the Wall who plucked a Stark Maid?)

 

Bael The Bard who plucked a Stark Maid and left her with a child in the crypts. A child raised by the Starks unknowing that his father wasn’t a Stark but the King beyond the Wall. Son faces the father 30 years later and father dies when he is unable to face his son in battle.

 

Mance Rayder (Abel=Bael) who plucks a Stark Maid and left her with a child in the crypts. A child raised by the Starks unknowing that his father wasn’t a Star but the King beyond the Wall. Son faces the father 165 years later and father dies when he is unable to face his son is battle. 

 

So we will return back to the Tourney and what may have happened there in a min with some other parallels but first let’s move forward

 

A Stark father dies followed by his eldest son.

Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark are murdered after the Tourney of Harrenhal (Brandon left a kid behind?)

Eddard and Robb Stark are murdered after the Hands Tourney.  (Robb left a kid behind?)

 

The youngest Stark is left as the Stark in Winterfell

Benjen Stark is in Winterfell after the Harrenhal Tourney as the Stark in Winterfell

Brandon Stark left in Wniterfell after being crippled, is the Stark of Winterfell.

 

A War of 5 kings?

Renly Baratheon                    Robert Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon                 

Robb Stark                              Eddard Stark

Joffery Lannister                    Tywin Lannister

Balon GreyJoy                        Balon Greyjoy

Daenerys Targaryen             Aerys Targaryen

Robert Arryn                           Jon Arryn

 

So not really 5 kings before or now. I do wonder at what point it was decided Robert would be the King.

 

A Stark Wedding

 

 Robb who is engaged to marry Rossalyn Frey out of duty, gets Jeyne Westerling (Lady of the South) with child and marries her to save her honor.

Eddard accused of fathering a child on Ashara Dayne (Lady of the South.) after having wed Caitlynn out of duty. We later learn that Ashara’s child was a daughter born late 283 or early 284.  Ashara Dayne having been dishonored at Harrenhal.

 

A mother’s love and war council.

 Caitlynn Stark played a major role as counsel to her son Robb Stark during the war

Lyarra Stark may have played a similar role to Eddard during Roberts Rebellion.

 

Unreturned Love.

Brienne of Tarth is in love with Renly Baratheon her prince, while he is in love with Loras Tyrell. His love is unreturned to Brienne. Both Brienne and Loras in Renly’s kings guard (Rainbow Guard).

 

Jon Con is in love with Rhaegar his prince, but Rheagar doesn’t love Jon back (and his friend Arthur Dayne). Both Arthur and Jon Con are in Rhaegar’s Kings Guard.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/18/2018 at 11:17 AM, Light a wight tonight said:

No secret at all. Loras and Renly "praying" before the Hand's Tourney, and Gregor's subsequent labeling Loras the Knight of Pansies is one clue. The exchange between Stannis and Renly regarding Margaery's virginity is also pretty telling. Ned was an outsider and wasn't looking for clues along those lines, and wasn't real perceptive, as Littlefinger points out.

And we certainly would have known from Jon Connington's thoughts if Rhaegar had preferred another man to him rather than a woman.

Then how come no seems to know that Jon Connington is gay? Not Arianne or any one else. And quite possibly, if Jon Connington knew of it. Though that is something they would try to keep secret. It is quite possible that people in the story are confused over peoples sexuality and dont always know for sure. Other than Eddard that is. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:01 AM, LynnS said:

The similarities are striking, but so are the differences.  We are meant to think it is Rhaegar, but Dany doesn't confirm it, in spite of seeing Rhaegar in the same set of visions.  He is someone that Dany doesn't know and the woman's name is also someone she doesn't know. I still think it is Aegon who is either Rhaegar's son or impersonating his son.  A prince might stand out by his armor and Illyrio has provided armor and court clothing and other such finery.

The vision that follows includes the cloth dragon:

Martin's puzzles are carefully crafted:

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/15608

Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palace in Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? Or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >>

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.

 

It is known, it was Rhaegar in the vision and that was baby Aegon.

[AlaskanSandman]

I hope i got every body back but i can't tell, theres alot here and i was away for a min busy with work and such haha

That being said. To add more to Rhaegar.

 

Claims that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

 

 

From Barristan who also says this of Rhaegar.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

 

Barristan who was not part of Rhaegar tight circle that included Arthur Dayne, Jon Connington and Oswell Went.

 

Who else? Viserys? Who told Daenerys.

 

Kevin Lannister? Who says this?

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A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

"… as for Connington," Tyrell repeated, "what victories has he ever won that we should fear him? He could have ended Robert's Rebellion at Stoney Sept. He failed. Just as the Golden Company has always failed. Some may rush to join them, aye. The realm is well rid of such fools."

Ser Kevan wished that he could share his certainty. He had known Jon Connington, slightly—a proud youth, the most headstrong of the gaggle of young lordlings who had gathered around Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, competing for his royal favor. Arrogant, but able and energetic. That, and his skill at arms, was why Mad King Aerys had named him Hand. Old Lord Merryweather's inaction had allowed the rebellion to take root and spread, and Aerys wanted someone young and vigorous to match Robert's own youth and vigor. "Too soon," Lord Tywin Lannister had declared when word of the king's choice had reached Casterly Rock. "Connington is too young, too bold, too eager for glory."

 

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

 

 

So he repeats the story from some wheres, but seems to not know anything about Jon Connington.

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

And well it might, for with that simple garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king upon the Iron Throne.

 

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

The Maester’s who even question why Rhaegar would take her.

 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"When did it change?" asked Brienne.

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

 

Oh…. That’s how the story spread. Robert commissioned singers and septons to put it down into song and history. The victor writes history.

 

Jon Connington, the only man alive that ever possibly knew Rhaegar truly.

 

Quote

 

The Winds of Winter - Arianne I

"Or not." Prince Doran had told her all of that. There must be more. "Those are just the things he did. I know all that. What sort of man was he? Honest and honorable, venal and grasping, proud?"

"Proud, for a certainty. Even arrogant. A faithful friend to Rhaegar, but prickly with others. Robert was his liege, but I've heard it said that Connington chafed at serving such a lord. Even then, Robert was known to be fond of wine and whores."

"No whores for Lord Jon, then

"I could not say. Some men keep their whoring secret."

 

And yet, the whole realm seems to be unaware about Jon Connington.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts. Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert's warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince.

 

No one seems aware that Jon Connington, one of Rhaegar’s best friends and part of his tight circle is in love with Rhaegar.

Now everyone else may have been unaware. But were Rhaegar, Arthur and Oswell?

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A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

"My lord does have one prize to offer," Haldon Halfmaester pointed out. "Prince Aegon's hand. A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners."

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

 

Jon Connington get catty and jealous over Elia? But not Lyanna Stark? Not even a mention of the girl responsible for the death of his silver prince???

 

Per GRRM we will hear more about Elia and her relationship with Raeghar. He said it was "complex".

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"And if he does not fail? What will Your Grace do then?"

"Her duty." The word felt cold upon her tongue. "You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?"

The old knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her."

Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps.

 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl."

"Perhaps so, Your Grace." Whitebeard paused a moment. "But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."

 

He did not wed for love, but if for duty, duty to who?

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

Meanwhile, King Aerys was becoming ever more estranged from his own son and heir. Early in the year 279 AC, Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, was formally betrothed to Princess Elia Martell, the delicate young sister of Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne. They were wed the following year, in a lavish ceremony at the Great Sept of Baelor in King's Landing, but Aerys II did not attend. He told the small council that he feared an attempt upon his life if he left the confines of the Red Keep, even with his Kingsguard to protect him. Nor would he allow his younger son, Viserys, to attend his brother's wedding.

When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish."

 

So it wasn’t to please his father, and it wasn’t to please Tywin Lannister by marrying Cersei either.

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A Clash of Kings - Prologue

And how do I do that? the old man wondered. Once I might have silenced him forever, but now . . .

Patchface had come to them as a boy. Lord Steffon of cherished memory had found him in Volantis, across the narrow sea. The king—the old king, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days—had sent his lordship to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed. "We have found the most splendid fool," he wrote Cressen, a fortnight before he was to return home from his fruitless mission. 

 

Yet how? When there is a lot of Valyrian blood in the free cities and plenty of women.

Was there no Hightower, Dayne or Velaryon women for Rhaegar to marry? What did Rhaegar seek to accomplish by marrying Elia?

 

Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palace in Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? Or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >>

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/15608

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

So there is no question, it was Rhaegar and Elia and baby Aegon in that bed in the vision. Aegon is also still possibly alive. So let’s put a pin in that and maybe come back to Aegon- F/Aegon and what Varys and Illyrio are really up to in another thread if anyone is interested to see me connect dots there.

 

So for now lets just sum up, the claims that Rhaegar stole Lyanna seem to have come mostly from Robert Baratheon. We will never know for now how Brandon Stark came under the assumption, but I can’t help but think that Peter Baelish is responsible for that one.

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

 

 

And Rhaegar’s very sexuality is under question along with his intentions. Which we may be able to figure out from Loras (Arthur) and Prince Renly Baratheon (Prince Rhaegar Targaryen), but we’ll get to them and Brienne’s (Jon Con’s) returned love.

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/15608

Who is the couple celebrating the birth of a son that Dany sees in her vision in the wizard's palace in Qarth? Can you tell us? Is it Rhaegar and someone? Or is it the original Aegon (the Conqueror?) >>

Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne.

 

It is known, it was Rhaegar in the vision and that was baby Aegon.

Yes, that's Rhaegar and Elia as GRRM has stated.

[Light a wight tonight]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Then how come no seems to know that Jon Connington is gay? Not Arianne or any one else. And quite possibly, if Jon Connington knew of it. Though that is something they would try to keep secret. It is quite possible that people in the story are confused over peoples sexuality and dont always know for sure. Other than Eddard that is. 

Not a parallel situation. JonCon wasn't on the scene so nobody was thinking about him at all. Renly was in the center of the action.

Wasn't JonCon supposed to be dead? Who's going to waste time thinking about about a deceased Targ loyalist's sexual orientation?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 1/16/2018 at 5:45 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

You need to read the Op again then and focus at the bottom.

I read it. You cannot say I am not stereotyping after you stereotype and then pretend it is not stereotyping. If I say something racist, and then I say that it wasn't racist, what I said was still racist. Saying because a character has a few (very few) things in common with another gay character, so therefore is gay, is the definition of stereotyping. Listen, here is the thing though most importantly. WHO CARES? Rhaegar being gay makes 0 difference to the plot of the story. If he is gay, then great. If he is straight, then great. I can tell you this much though, GRRM wrote nothing to suggest that Rhaegar is gay. Nothing. Because your theory is based on stereotypes and no actual evidence. Many characters in the book could be gay. That is true. But who cares? Obsessing over the sexuality of a character is probably not the best use of anyones time. It makes no difference to the plot. It does not effect anyones character arc. It is not important. 

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I read it. You cannot say I am not stereotyping after you stereotype and then pretend it is not stereotyping. If I say something racist, and then I say that it wasn't racist, what I said was still racist. Saying because a character has a few (very few) things in common with another gay character, so therefore is gay, is the definition of stereotyping. Listen, here is the thing though most importantly. WHO CARES? Rhaegar being gay makes 0 difference to the plot of the story. If he is gay, then great. If he is straight, then great. I can tell you this much though, GRRM wrote nothing to suggest that Rhaegar is gay. Nothing. Because your theory is based on stereotypes and no actual evidence. Many characters in the book could be gay. That is true. But who cares? Obsessing over the sexuality of a character is probably not the best use of anyones time. It makes no difference to the plot. It does not effect anyones character arc. It is not important. 

Yea this sounds like the personal kind of feeling i didn't want to get into. And yes, it would matter to the plot, whether you like the subject or find it offensive or not. His complicated marriage to his wife and his motivations in the story are greatly important. Specially since there are accusations leveled against him that he stole Lyanna and raped her. And no, this is based off mirrors in the story. Not Stereo types. But since you can't get past that and im not going to entertain this line of thought further. Have a lovely day  

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I read it. You cannot say I am not stereotyping after you stereotype and then pretend it is not stereotyping. If I say something racist, and then I say that it wasn't racist, what I said was still racist. Saying because a character has a few (very few) things in common with another gay character, so therefore is gay, is the definition of stereotyping. Listen, here is the thing though most importantly. WHO CARES? Rhaegar being gay makes 0 difference to the plot of the story. If he is gay, then great. If he is straight, then great. I can tell you this much though, GRRM wrote nothing to suggest that Rhaegar is gay. Nothing. Because your theory is based on stereotypes and no actual evidence. Many characters in the book could be gay. That is true. But who cares? Obsessing over the sexuality of a character is probably not the best use of anyones time. It makes no difference to the plot. It does not effect anyones character arc. It is not important. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150241-part-3-rhaegar/

Here, for another look at Rhaegar. This might suit you better as it looks at his actions in other regards rather than his mirror similarities. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea this sounds like the personal kind of feeling i didn't want to get into. And yes, it would matter to the plot, whether you like the subject or find it offensive or not. His complicated marriage to his wife and his motivations in the story are greatly important. Specially since there are accusations leveled against him that he stole Lyanna and raped her. And no, this is based off mirrors in the story. Not Stereo types. But since you can't get past that and im not going to entertain this line of thought further. Have a lovely day  

Mirroring another gay character and then assuming he is gay because of that is stereotyping dude. What do you think stereotyping is? A definition from google : a stereotype is any thought widely adopted about specific types of individuals or certain ways of behaving intended to represent the entire group of those individuals or behaviors as a whole. When you take how one gay character acts and then assume other characters that act like that are gay, that is stereotyping. Listen, I actually don't want to argue with you, I want you to realize that what you are saying is offensive and stop saying it though. 

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Mirroring another gay character and then assuming he is gay because of that is stereotyping dude. What do you think stereotyping is? A definition from google : a stereotype is any thought widely adopted about specific types of individuals or certain ways of behaving intended to represent the entire group of those individuals or behaviors as a whole. When you take how one gay character acts and then assume other characters that act like that are gay, that is stereotyping. Listen, I actually don't want to argue with you, I want you to realize that what you are saying is offensive and stop saying it though. 

I'm not sure it's stereotpying and Martin has left it open for speculation especially since he brings up the subject of gay men and a provides a culture that is very open in their sexuality.  But there really isn't much to go on with respect to Rhaegar.  We can't assume that a complicated marriage is based on sexuality rather than the political situation it creates; or that because Ned says that Rhaegar wasn't subject to lust when visiting a brothel means that he isn't attracted to women.  It only means that he can keep it in his pants. 

As far as stereotyping; I have several gay friends and they stereotype other men all the time, according to their behavior whether they know them to be gay or not. They seem to be mocking their own idiosyncrasies and laughing at their own expense.  Not taking themselves too seriously in other words.

I doubt we'll every know if Rhaegar was gay or not and I don't think it's important.  What we do know is that Rhaegar was the catch of the day and that his marriange was politically charged.  That seems more significant to me. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:55 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Mirroring another gay character and then assuming he is gay because of that is stereotyping dude. What do you think stereotyping is? A definition from google : a stereotype is any thought widely adopted about specific types of individuals or certain ways of behaving intended to represent the entire group of those individuals or behaviors as a whole. When you take how one gay character acts and then assume other characters that act like that are gay, that is stereotyping. Listen, I actually don't want to argue with you, I want you to realize that what you are saying is offensive and stop saying it though. 

No, im not because its not stereo typing. I dont honestly care how you want to drag it down that path. I can tell your offended for some other deeper personal issue and for that i apologize. Not for my analysis of Rhaegar and his character though. Speculating on his sexuality should be allowed. Rhaegar is awesome either way he swings. It is important though as his motivations are under question. And since the Hands Tourney and its players seem to mirror the Harrenhal events in every other way, why can't that one too? Just because you find it offensive? Im not seeing it. Sorry. Further, im an artist, musician and thespian, so your kind of talking to the wrong person about stereo types. I've already explained that my intentions were other than you wanna make them. Period. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/4/2018 at 7:25 AM, LynnS said:

I'm not sure it's stereotpying and Martin has left it open for speculation especially since he brings up the subject of gay men and a provides a culture that is very open in their sexuality.  But there really isn't much to go on with respect to Rhaegar.  We can't assume that a complicated marriage is based on sexuality rather than the political situation it creates; or that because Ned says that Rhaegar wasn't subject to lust when visiting a brothel means that he isn't attracted to women.  It only means that he can keep it in his pants. 

As far as stereotyping; I have several gay friends and they stereotype other men all the time, according to their behavior whether they know them to be gay or not. They seem to be mocking their own idiosyncrasies and laughing at their own expense.  Not taking themselves too seriously in other words.

I doubt we'll every know if Rhaegar was gay or not and I don't think it's important.  What we do know is that Rhaegar was the catch of the day and that his marriange was politically charged.  That seems more significant to me. 

Thank you. Rhaegar is awesome either way, but since he is accused of kidnapping Lyanna while showing no interest in women any wheres else. Allows for speculation. Not to mention the mirrors in narrative i chose to explore. 

[LynnS]

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