Jump to content

the kingslayer's plothole?


Recommended Posts

hi first time posting i want to talk about the plot hole involving jamie lannister and his father tywin lannister (during and after the sacking of kings landing )
brife over-view  ( closing days of Roberts rebellion son and hair dead at the hands of a rebel and two large armys with nothing to stand in the way between tham and the capital and betrayed by the Lannister's the mad king Aerys II Targaryen plots to burn kingslanding. jamie lannister youngist member of the kings guard foil's the plot by slaying the head pyromancer  (who disguised him self as a common solder) and then the king earning him the titie of kingslayer the mocker he well forever be know as. ( in a conflict of vows jamie must choice  protect the king and follow his orders or protect his family follow the king even untill death, protect the innocent, protect the small folk, be honorable ext )
ok so if we take jamie's word for it than he slays the king to protect the folk and than hunts down the pyromancers to stop any future attemps of seting off the wildfire ( ignore the plot hole or plot convenience here* ). great however jamie doesnt respone to the fact that his father just ordered the sacking of the city (the mass killings and rape of the same populus ( man, women both young and old, "babes at the breast" ) he just did his "finist act" for to protect
now the counter arguments
- to turn around and kill ones own father right after you kill the king for ordering you to bring him your fathers head (is madness) = is it? the slaying of the king was to protect the common people if jamie is to be belived after the death of the king the main threat pass's to tywin lannister his father and thus another conflict of vows
 - no one else seems to give a shit =  ned seems more argered by the deaths of the royal family than the mass rapes and butcherings of the small folk keep in mind that if not his anger is short-lived  as the death of lyanna brought tham back togather, the new king who seems happy to see the bodies of the targayrians * (this is to be expected) never mantions the sacking outside of the red keep (altho in reflection this could be the turning a blind eye to things he doesnt want to see part of his character)
 - kinslaying  = is on par with kingslaying = or in jamie's own thoughts "kinslaying was worse than kingslaying (also in the degrees of kinslaying the killing of ones own parent is considered  worse than the killing of ones own brother or sister
 - hes just one man = borders on romantic last stand, doomed hero, tragic hero but than again to ignore this point leaves a hole in the plot (also didnt have to be infront of every one )
 - it didnst work like that / sackings are a historical fact + the argument is that jamie lannister being of higher birth and the small folk being of lower birth  (= a smaller price to pay ) = however this niglects the first conflict of vows the slaying of the king to protect the week ,small folk,maidens,the young and old vs "no man is so accursed as the kinslayer"
counter to that is a argument on meanings of protect and not avange. ( i belive that thare is a vow to avange those slay by those that did )
 - he might hold a grudge aganst his father = nop in fact dispite what tywin did to his own son tyrion plus this jamie lannister "loves his father"
to clear things up
i am not looking for a  rainbow these events in jamie lannister story arc leaves me with two conclusions  1 the kingslayer didnt slay the king to protect the small folk of kings landing  but for a other unknown reason (most likly to protect a family member as the king just ordered him to bring him his fathers head (tywin) mabye his sister or tyrion ) or 2 is a plot hole it could be that in the end thare was no conflict of vows and the young jamie lannister choise family above honor the implaction is that he has no redamtion arc as it stands now (the story is made up by jamie lannister to counter reality vows broken innocents slayin in mass slughter more women raped than you could count the royal children dead
*smaller plot-holes
 1 why didnt the pyromancers use the wildfire during or after the sacking/ during the crowning of king robert berathion (he killed the leader of the pyromancers the one desgised to look like a common guardsman to prevent the wildfire plot whare were the other two during and after the sacking  and why was he just waiting in the throne room wouldnt he fear the other two pyromancer seting off the wildfire well the city was being sacked)
2 ok no one wanted to lisen to the kingslayers resonings why didnt he tell tywin,pyceil or the spider and for that matter how did the spider not know or find out the mad kings wild fire plot  (or tyrion for that matter) (or tywin )
3 this is another plot hole why the fuck would the new king who begain this war over the kidnapping and rape of his betroval want to stain his honor by marrying into the family that just commited mass rapes and killings < the royal murders not with standing> counter to this is your viewing this from 21 centery values = nop in a age that puts high value in honor to marrie into the family that did such a villanis deed would stain the new kings honor (why would any lord bow to such a dishonorable king ) proof is in this no lord would seek to wed his daughter to the mountain  ( mabye only with in the westerlands but still thats pushing it (are new king wants to be loved why stain his image by marrieing into the lannisters who just commited such a villanus deed (yes it was jon arryan that convinced the new king that he needs hairs and yes the fact that the lannisters gifted him kingslanding and did the dishonorable deeds of killing the king and his hairs might just be enought to over look said dishonors and reward tham with marrage (who else highborn enough to be queen is thare the tywells are targayran loyalist... thares the newly born dany stormborn targayran )
 
                                                         thoughts? and sorry for grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that Tywin Lannister was planning to betray Aerys from the very beginning of Robert's Rebellion. And thus Jaime killed Aerys not because Aerys was planning to burn King's Landing, he killed him, because Jaime agreed with Tywin to do it, long before it actually happened. All it was planned.

Tywin and Robert also agreed that prior Robert's army will get to King's Landing, Robert will inform Tywin that they are departing, from wherever they were, to go to King's Landing. And thus Tywin was supposed to go to KL, and get there shortly prior arrival of Robert's soldiers. It was supposed to look like Tywin arrived to help Aerys. But actually he was going to sack the city, kill Elia and her children, and Jaime was supposed to kill Aerys.

Robert and Tywin agreed that Lannisters will do all the dirty job, and as a payment for it, Robert will marry with Tywin's daughter, and made Cersei Queen of 7K, and Jaime will be allowed to stay in Kingsguard of new King of 7K, Robert Baratheon. At those times oaths of Kingsguards were irrevocable, so even if the King will change, Jaime still won't return to be Tywin's heir. But if Robert will marry with Cersei, then one day Tywin's grandson will become King of 7K.

Probably Jaime and Cersei also agreed beforehand, that when she will marry with Robert, she won't give birth to his children. If she will become pregnant from him, she will drink moon tea (we know that this did happened, Cersei aborted Robert's child at least once). If Jaime will stay as Kingsguard in King's Landing, then he and Cersei will be always together. And thus they will also have an opportunity to f*ck behind Robert's back, and one day fruit of their incestuous relationship will sit on Iron Throne.

Thus Jaime killed Aerys to assure that one day his own son will become King of 7K.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, oakbloodthesap said:
sip
                                                         thoughts? and sorry for grammar

I think to understand part of this, you have to understand how and why the sack happened.

After the Trident, Tywin knew Aerys was lost, and Tywin had no intention of being on the losing side. But he has a problem: he cannot defy Aerys openly since Aerys will have Jaime, Tywin's only viable heir, immediately killed. So he marches to King's Landing and offers fealty to the king. Now, I don't believe Aerys was fooled by this in the least. Aerys opened the gates knowing that Tywin was still his enemy -- but so what? Long before any Lannister soldiers get close to Aerys the whole city will go up in a ball of wildfire, killing Lannisters, northmen, loyalists, citizens and everybody else, except Aerys who will fly away in his new dragon form.

So Tywin is allowed into the city where his army will be responsible for manning the walls, gates and battlements, and perhaps a few key areas in the city, but NOT anywhere near the Red Keep, where Aerys already has thousands of defenders. This still presents a problem for Tywin because the northern army will be at the gates any moment now, and he can't wait until they arrive because then he will either have to open the gates, and thus watch Jaime's severed head come arcing over the city, or put up a defense, which would put him on the losing side of the war. So how is Tywin going to get enough men close enough the Red Keep to assault it quickly enough before Jaime is taken by Aerys' defenders?

Answer: Create chaos in the streets. Once the mayhem starts, Tywin can flood the Red Keep with conflicting reports about what is happening long enough to keep Aerys guessing: citizens are rioting and Lannister soldiers are restoring order, saboteurs are at work, the northmen have arrived and there is fighting at the gates. As the fires spread, Tywin gains the ability to send large numbers of men to the Red Keep, ostensibly to protect the peace but in reality to storm the front gate and get enough men inside to give Jaime a fighting chance. Fortunately, Aerys did not allow anyone but the Kingsgaurd to be armed in his presence, so he was never in any real danger, but Tywin could not take that chance with his only son and heir.

How does all this relate to Jaime's honor and the plotholes you mentioned? Jaime did not know what was really happening in the streets any more than Aerys did. For all he knew, the sack was in fact just normal rioting (remember, this is still early in the timeline; the full sack and all it's horrors went on all night long), or it was fighting at the gates that had spilled over into the city. So his motivations were good: he killed Aerys to prevent massive loss of life not knowing that the massive loss of life that unfolded later was in fact a deliberate act of his father's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

How does all this relate to Jaime's honor and the plotholes you mentioned? Jaime did not know what was really happening in the streets any more than Aerys did. For all he knew, the sack was in fact just normal rioting (remember, this is still early in the timeline; the full sack and all it's horrors went on all night long), or it was fighting at the gates that had spilled over into the city. So his motivations were good: he killed Aerys to prevent massive loss of life not knowing that the massive loss of life that unfolded later was in fact a deliberate act of his father's.

Based on Jaime's behavior, witnessed by Ned, it doesn't looks like Jaime was unaware of what was going on in King's Landing. Also it looks as if though Jaime weren't afraid of Robert's soldiers. Probably because Robert was in cohorts with Tywin, and they agreed that Jaime will kill Aerys, and Robert's soldiers will be warned that they shouldn't harm Jaime Lannister.

AGOT, Eddard II:

Quote

“I cannot answer for the gods, Your Grace…only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day,” Ned said. “Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister’s men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion’s head. How he glittered!”

“This is well known,” the king complained.

“I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king’s blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister’s men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, ‘Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It’s not a very comfortable seat, I’m afraid.’”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Based on Jaime's behavior, witnessed by Ned, it doesn't looks like Jaime was unaware of what was going on in King's Landing. Also it looks as if though Jaime weren't afraid of Robert's soldiers. Probably because Robert was in cohorts with Tywin, and they agreed that Jaime will kill Aerys, and Robert's soldiers will be warned that they shouldn't harm Jaime Lannister.

AGOT, Eddard II:

 

Sure, Jaime knew that Tywin would back Robert:

Quote

SOS, Jaime III?, IV?

My father held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister would be on the winning side. The Trident decided him."

So the fact that Jaime considers Robert "our friend" can in no way be inferred to mean that Jaime knows Tywin intentionally set his men to rape, burn and pillage the city.

Also, Jaime is not afraid of Robert's soldiers because, per your quote, "Lannister men were everywhere" and Jaime was "seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights."

I don't see any indication that Robert, Tywin or Ned planned on killing the king, and I can't imagine how they would get those instructions to Jaime, or even why Jaime would omit that little detail when recalling the story to Brienne.

In any event, complete immolation of the entire capital, perhaps of half a million people killed instantly, is orders of magnitude more severe than even the most brutal sacking. So, yes, Jaime can be credited for saving the lives of those that were in his power to save, and I don't think you can lay blame on him for the deaths that he did not cause and was powerless to prevent.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Follow up

I just realized what Jamie Lannister was wearing when he killed the king and sat the iron throne  golden armor with a helm fashioned to look like a lion "how he glittered" with a golden sword lad across his lap ( isn't this the sign of the guest right being denied and if so why? and who was he expecting?) (he's dressed like a Lannister) one would think the mad king if he didn't order Jamie to dress as such would freak out at this show of colors (true loyalty)
so ya this is evidence that the down fall of the mad king was pre planed by the Lannister's (in haste )however i don't think it was Robert who thought of, mastermind or even had a hand in it but Jon arryan who after all convinced Robert to wed tywin daughter (Robert had no notion of marrying so soon after losing lyanna but Jon arryan who was like a father to both Robert and Ned (conceived him of the new kings need for hairs) (i also always get this impression that tywin was in a panic when he raced to betray his king and sack the city) ( why bother fighting at all when one can simply stand back at full strength and simple demand marriage for fealty to the new king or attack the weakened victor
This would also explain the timing in tywins betrayal (near perfect)
as for Jamie Lannister yes when he killed the mad king to prevent the wild fire plot he was saving the entire population of kingslanding and yes he could not prevent the mass killings and or rapes of the commoners ( in anger he could have killed his father as the one of the best swords men alive he could have easily done so (however in-action is not his alone for him to bear as Ned stark also does nothing   (and yes the king could have just ordered tywin to pay a fine for the killing and mass rape of the small folk ( also nobles which as higher class might demand high fines and or lose of limb for injustice suffered or they might just fall under the mad kings court and thusly fuck em )but again the conflict of vows that Jamie is plagued by seems to ignore the small folk and his father
however this opens up a another question
Why didn't Ned stark do anything
(Ned by all accounts a honorable guy "the second summer would come again before that one (stains) his (high valued) honor seems not to care about the mass killings and rapes of the small folk of kings landing  (is outraged by the death of the royal children and rape of elia martal by the mountain yet does nothing (other than storm out when his friend the new king doesn't seem to care but apparently forgives and forgets after the death of his sister lyanna stark ) he does nothing but wait for Robert thinking that he would be just but why wait the Lannister's only number 10,000+ strong minus what ever number of losses they took in the sacking of the city + it had been a hour well into the sacking of Kingslanding before the young lord arrived and would be exhausted from the heavy fighting and mass rapeing (now the argument is with how many men foot and on horse did Ned have, the Mormont's where there although is this when Ned arrived or when the king arrived?) but it would be sizeable enough to begin the siege of kl (i would think) so well over 10'000 strong (although was Jon arryans vale man with Ned when he arrived at kings landing? He might have been convinced to wait for the new king who would be eager to show the people that he is a just king ( might be why Ned waited for Robert no proof just a thought  )
 counter arguments
 - he might not have the numbers to attack (keep in mind that Ned waited till Robert had arrived to demand justice and was met with dismissal by Robert = and by this time Ned and his northern army where outnumbered by king Robert forces, the vale man under Jon arryan and the 12,000 Lannister's (might be around that number do to losses in the sacking of kingslanding
 - would risk having to take up arms against his friend and newly crowned king + his second father figure Jon arryan ( to much of a price to pay for honors sake (for peasants)
second question
do you think Ned stark is a honorable guy?
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...