Angel Eyes Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Where do the dead lizards come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 35 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Where do the dead lizards come from? From valyrian blood maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kandrax said: From valyrian blood maybe. I guess the Targaryens haven’t suffered from inbreeding depression yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said: I guess the Targaryens haven’t suffered from inbreeding depression yet. Are you talking about stillborns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 57 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Where do the dead lizards come from? Nobody knows but it seems to me that the dragonesque stillbirths is part of being "blood of the dragon". Downside of blood magic sort of. I'm thinking dragonlords used blood magic to infuse themselves with dragon blood, literally. I have nothing to back it up with but its where I landed while puzzling over Rhaego's leather wings/another who had scales/inbreeding/heat-resitance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarokKing Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Hard to say. It has been theorized that the Valyrian Dragonlords magically genetically modified themselves, taking in dragon's blood so they could better control them. Perhaps said lizard stillbirths are a genetic throwback to the dragons blood? Genetic throwback, as in has too much "dragons blood" to be viable as a human. However, therein lies a problem, of the instances where we hear of such stillbirths, only one, Visenya the daughter of Rhaenyra and Daemon... the Rogue Prince, was born from two Targaryens, with the others, Rhaego and Maegor's children, being born of a Targaryen and someone who was not a Targaryen, nor even a Valyrian for that matter. One would think it more likely that such a "throwback" would occur more often with the inbreeding of those who also carry the Blood of the Dragon, than with someone who does not. Another possibility is magic. Tyanna of the Tower was allegedly the cause of the stillbirth of Maegor's children, not to mention the theorized possibility of magic being involved in Maegor's conception and later revival from a coma. Mirri Maaz Duur's magic could have negatively harmed Rhaego. And as for Visenya... well we don't hear of any possible magic going on there, however Rhaenyra repeatedly called the unborn Visenya "monster" and told her to "get out" during her labor with Visenya, so perhaps some unintentional magic that cursed Visenya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 TWOIF about Gogossos: Spoiler New methods of torture were used and blood magic is said to have been practiced, including slave women being forced to mate with beasts to produce twisted, half-human offspring What if some blood magic happened back in Valyria to mix Valyrian blood with dragon blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ckram Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Where do the dead lizards come from? According to the evidence we have: from grief, desperation and fury. Or simply from the mother's proximity to the idea of death. Her own or others. Four women (two Targaryen and two Targaryen consorts) are said to have given birth to stillborn "monsters" or "abominations": Dany: gave birth while trying to save her dying husband. Maegor's Elinor: became pregnant after her husband was murdered. Maegor's Jeyne: had already given a posthumous son to her first husband, got pregnant as a widow, and had an abortion because she was being poisoned. Rhaenyra: went into labor earlier when she was furious to learn of her father's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaedys Targaryen Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 On 16/1/2018 at 7:59 PM, Sigella said: Nobody knows but it seems to me that the dragonesque stillbirths is part of being "blood of the dragon". Downside of blood magic sort of. I'm thinking dragonlords used blood magic to infuse themselves with dragon blood, literally. I have nothing to back it up with but its where I landed while puzzling over Rhaego's leather wings/another who had scales/inbreeding/heat-resitance. I personally have had a little theory that Rhaego and Dany's dragons somehow switched their lifestate during MMD's magic; throughout Game, the eggs are always stone-like, implying that the dragons inside are dead. Rhaego is always alive and growing inside Dany, up until his birth when he comes out dead. There is something unusual about Rhaego's condition too: Quote "Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years." aGoT Daenerys IX So he has scales and something that can resemble wings, but where did the graveworms come from? And the stench? How could he have been dead for years, when he had been alive and well just a few days prior? The dragons, on the other hand, had been dead for years. They would've had graveworms and stink of corruption on them, but instead they're alive and well. Also, what Rhaego and the dragons have in common is that they were all unborn at the time of MMD's magical ritual. That, and Rhaego has the blood of the dragons, so they're all dragons. This also begs the question, did someone do something similar to Maegor's unborn children? There were an awful lot of dragons born right after Maegor's death and during Jaehaerys I's and Viserys I's reign. Did someone do the same thing to Maegor's children as what happened to Rhaego? Is the secret to bringing unhatched dead dragons back from the dead sacrificing unborn children, who, similarily to the dragons, are yet unborn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said: I personally have had a little theory that Rhaego and Dany's dragons switched somehow during MMD's magic; throughout Game, the eggs are always stone, implying that the dragons inside are dead. Rhaego is always alive and growing inside Dany, up until his birth, when he comes out dead. There is something unusual about Rhaego's condition too: So he has scales and something that can resemble wings, but where did the graveworms come from? How can he have been dead for years, when he was alive and well just a few days prior? The dragons, on the other hand, had indeed been dead for years. They would've had graveworms and stink of corruption on them, but instead they're alive and well. Also, what Rhaego and the dragons have in common is that they were all unborn at the time of MMD's magical ritual. That, and Rhaego has the blood of the dragons, so they're all dragons. This also begs the question, did someone do something to Maegor's unborn children? There were an awful lot of dragons born right after Maegor's death and during Jaehaerys I's and Viserys I's reign. Did someone do the same thing to Maegor's children as what happened to Rhaego? Thats some really good stuff! In Rhaego's case it surely seems like some sort of magic transference of life and death between him and Drogo, but somehow I find it a stretch to link him with the dragons hatching. If his corpse had been placed on the pyre I would accept it but alas we don't know what happened to his remains. Also I'm not sure but I have this notion that petrification excludes rot and worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 11:25 AM, Angel Eyes said: I guess the Targaryens haven’t suffered from inbreeding depression yet. Hello, the Mad King? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckPunch Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 "blood of the dragon" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 16 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Hello, the Mad King? Not really. Inbreeding depression is where the biological fitness of a population is severely reduced due to inbreeding. Considering that Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys exist... in This video, it’s used to explain why Daenerys isn’t fit for the throne because apparently she can’t have kids. Though that video is almost two years old... As to why Rhaegar had two relatively healthy children, there is that theory I found a while back that Aerys is not Rhaegar’s father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Not really. Inbreeding depression is where the biological fitness of a population is severely reduced due to inbreeding. Considering that Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys exist... in This video, it’s used to explain why Daenerys isn’t fit for the throne because apparently she can’t have kids. Though that video is almost two years old... As to why Rhaegar had two relatively healthy children, there is that theory I found a while back that Aerys is not Rhaegar’s father. you do realize that in a story with dragons, flaming swords, not-elves, ice demons, family lines that are 8000 to 10,000 years old, neanderthal whalers and toxic cities with no children, maybe the author took liberties in regards to the effects of hundreds of years of brother sister inbreeding? and I didn't watch the video. The intro told me that they are taking a 5 sentence concept and spreading it out over 15 minutes with lots of fluff. Dany can't have kids due to the blood magic used to save Drogo. Rhaegar could have kids because GRRM does not accurately portray inbreeding. For a legit study of it, research the Habsburgs: https://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/the-end-of-a-dynasty-how-inbreeding-doomed-the-house-of-habsburg/https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Habsburg-Jaw-And-Other-Royal-Inbreeding-Deformities-and-Disordershttp://www.rebelcircus.com/blog/the-deformed-monarchs-the-habsburg-dynasty/ after less than 200 years of near constant close bred marriages (mostly first and second cousins, uncles and nieces etc) they were so deformed, unable to reproduce and unable to rule due to mental deficiencies that their line died out. The Targs, aside from a small amount of dornish blood 100 years before dany, almost all of the targ marriages involved brother and sister or first cousin, for nearly 300 years. The fact that Dany is described as extraordinary beautiful means he takes liberties with all that inbreeding. Also, that theory about Rhaegar's parentage is foolish. not as much as the benjen/euron/dario are everyone else, mance=rhaegar, mance fighting at the harrenhal tourney or any Jon parentage other than lyanna and Rhaegar, but it is foolish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/16/2018 at 2:59 PM, Sigella said: Nobody knows but it seems to me that the dragonesque stillbirths is part of being "blood of the dragon". Downside of blood magic sort of. I'm thinking dragonlords used blood magic to infuse themselves with dragon blood, literally. I have nothing to back it up with but its where I landed while puzzling over Rhaego's leather wings/another who had scales/inbreeding/heat-resitance. There are two purported cases. Neither of which have been confirmed for the reader. The only people to see Rhaego were Dothraki midwives and Mirri Maz Duur. I have to question the accuracy of what they're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: There are two purported cases. Neither of which have been confirmed for the reader. The only people to see Rhaego were Dothraki midwives and Mirri Maz Duur. I have to question the accuracy of what they're saying. Sure but that goes for everything since this series consists solely on unreliable narrator-POV's. Also there are more than two dead lizard babies. I like to think that GRRM put these lizardbabes in the story for a reason and I enjoy pondering what purpose they serve the saga. I believe there are four in total and thats no accident. (2xMaegor, Visenya and Rhage) Too may to be discounted surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon_Tor Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: There are two purported cases. Neither of which have been confirmed for the reader. The only people to see Rhaego were Dothraki midwives and Mirri Maz Duur. I have to question the accuracy of what they're saying. Glad to see someone else put this together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 42 minutes ago, Sigella said: Sure but that goes for everything since this series consists solely on unreliable narrator-POV's. Also there are more than two dead lizard babies. I like to think that GRRM put these lizardbabes in the story for a reason and I enjoy pondering what purpose they serve the saga. I believe there are four in total and thats no accident. (2xMaegor, Visenya and Rhage) Too may to be discounted surely? Maegor's were probably some kind of poison given to his wives while they were pregnant. His second wife even admits to having poisoned the other wives... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I like the idea that Rhaego is still alive if it means he's half lizard-dragon/half man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 See, I had always thought that the lizard-children were supposed to be wild rumors spread among the smallfolk, similarly to how Tyrion didn't really have a tail when he was born. Now I'm learning that these children are apparently supposed to be taken at face value and, well, I liked the first option much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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