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Is Jon Snow going to go mad?


Varysblackfyre321

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17 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

but I feel people don't really consider whether or not his death and his possible warging into ghost will effect him mentally

Yes, This topic has been discussed many times by everyone claiming his Targ madness will reveal itself, to generic North/Jon/Stark haters that claim he will get lost in his wolf and go crazy. He probably will have tough transition from boy to man, but then will gain control. The author is not wasting five books on Jon just to make him "disappear".

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12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Yes, This topic has been discussed many times by everyone claiming his Targ madness will reveal itself, to generic North/Jon/Stark haters that claim he will get lost in his wolf and go crazy. He probably will have tough transition from boy to man, but then will gain control. The author is not wasting five books on Jon just to make him "disappear".

I agree that jon won t become a different person or go mad. But grrm opinion of gandalf is that people return from death as less than what they were.

Do you think he uses this ideology for unCat and unBeric but will use a loophole with jon? Because if he goes into ghost it isn t a true death.

Because it is difficult to imagine that jon being influenced by ghost to be a bad thing. And there are a lot of things that jon might gain from this experience.Like being better attuned to his magical gifts, some guidance/visions from bran or acquiring so ability/instinct from ghost. While on the negative side jon might become more animalistic though I have no real idea of what this would mean... eat any kind of meat? piss in public? growl? ghost isn t a dumb or violent animal for jon to have anger issues or becoming a brute...

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

But grrm opinion of gandalf is that people return from death as less than what they were.

Maybe he's not dead at all, just wounded. I don't know why everyone assumes he's dead... we don't know. 

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22 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Maybe he's not dead at all, just wounded. I don't know why everyone assumes he's dead... we don't know. 

Mostly because bran's vision of all warmth leaving him and him only feeling the cold in the last chapter. In adition there are a lot of hints about jon going into ghost.

However you might be right. He doesn t die but gets stuck on ghost because he doesn t know how to get out? If the mountain survived a spear to the stomach for a couple of days jon should be able to survive some stabbings for a while lol.

In adition, grrm has to have a plan to get jon out of the wall. Unless the idea is to use robbs will... But as jon sworn to be in the NW to the old gods I don t think robbs will will be enough...

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8 minutes ago, divica said:

adition, grrm has to have a plan to get jon out of the wall. Unless the idea is to use robbs will... But as jon sworn to be in the NW to the old gods I don t think robbs will will be enough...

If he really is dead then he can leave the Night's Watch without having broken any vows, which I see would be important for him, the righteous guy he is. I for one don't place so much importance on words... the right thing to do might be different than the thing you promised to do. That's sort of a theme in the books too. 

 

9 minutes ago, divica said:

In adition there are a lot of hints about jon going into ghost.

Bran goes into summer while in his comma too, so it's not necessary for him to be dead to go into ghost and then that experience having an affect on him. 

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4 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Why is that? Would you care to expand? 

For sure. I also meant Dany VIII, not Dany IX.

It's the Mirri parts of the chapter that had me wondering. Mirri is doing this whole bloodmagic ritual while Dany is outside the tent and fighting is happening. Drogo is not yet dead, but according to Jorah, the man will be dead by morning. This is where Mirri comes in. Dany hears her sing, sees her dance with shadows (which sounds a whole lot like Patchface's song in the Prologue of Clash). But the most interesting part for me in this whole chapter is what Dany glimpses when she is being carried toward the tent after she goes in labor.
 

Quote

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. (Dany VIII, AGOT 64)

Jon's injuries are severe enough that he collapses from them. And for me, this just connects so well to the ritual, especially this line with what Bran sees (Bran III) while he is in his coma about Jon. Sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of warmth fled from him. 

Jon is stabbed, very possibly warged into his wolf, and his body is dying. 

Mirri tells Dany in the same chapter that there is great healing magic in fire. 

I'm not saying Mel will be doing exactly the same thing as Mirri, but I'm no longer convinced that Jon has died. 

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I personally don't believe that Jon will go mad or become unJon but I do think that characters in the books will see Jon as going mad.

In ADWD he has already started talking about studying and communicating with the dead which we know is because he wants to discover how to defeat the 'Others' however characters within the books are not likely to understand that and think he is going mad/switching sides/whatever else.

Also studying the dead just sounds creepy.

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50 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

If he really is dead then he can leave the Night's Watch without having broken any vows, which I see would be important for him, the righteous guy he is. I for one don't place so much importance on words... the right thing to do might be different than the thing you promised to do. That's sort of a theme in the books too. 

 

Bran goes into summer while in his comma too, so it's not necessary for him to be dead to go into ghost and then that experience having an affect on him. 

But what would need to happen for someone to convince jon to leave the NW despite his vows? There are good lords in the north that could assume the role of lord of the north or regent for rickon...

Maybe the NW will expell him? But also extremelly interesting is who will assume control in CB? We don t really have a figure that might calm things down... And the NW will probably want to capture mel, selise, val and shireen which will lead to chaos... And if the wildlings take over the NW brothers in other castles will opose them and maybe threaten the hostages...

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7 minutes ago, divica said:

But what would need to happen for someone to convince jon to leave the NW despite his vows? There are good lords in the north that could assume the role of lord of the north or regent for rickon...

Maybe the NW will expell him? But also extremelly interesting is who will assume control in CB? We don t really have a figure that might calm things down... And the NW will probably want to capture mel, selise, val and shireen which will lead to chaos... And if the wildlings take over the NW brothers in other castles will opose them and maybe threaten the hostages...

I'm really kind of struggling to even see how the NW continues to exist after the events of ADWD.  The NW is already severely depleted of man power, and with the killing of Jon there seems to be an almost obvious outcome of civil war among the different factions of the Wall.  I mean, the wildlings outnumber the NW but there is some support for the conspirators Marsh and Whittlestick among the builders and stewards.  I suppose it's possible that the wildlings just quickly subdue Marsh and Whittlestick but that doesn't account for the fact that the loyal Queen's Man Ser Patrek is now dead, killed by the wildling giant Wun-Wun.  So you have at least 3 different aggrieved factions looking for each other's blood in a highly combustible scenario.  I see a lot of blood being spilled and with the NW already outnumbered and undermanned, I sort of struggle with the idea of how the NW even survives this.

Assuming the NW does somehow survive, I'm thinking Jon could possibly be out of commission for a while (maybe even the entirety of TWOW), if so I'd imagine by the time Jon wakes up the NW will be dead anyway.  

But yeah, I don't really see Jon going "Well I died so now I'm free from my oath" but I could possibly see an angry and pissed off Jon basically saying "screw my oath and screw the NW."

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Yes, This topic has been discussed many times by everyone claiming his Targ madness will reveal itself, to generic North/Jon/Stark haters that claim he will get lost in his wolf and go crazy. He probably will have tough transition from boy to man, but then will gain control. The author is not wasting five books on Jon just to make him "disappear".

 He's already a man. He's what a few months or weeks shy of being classified as one by law. He's killed, loved, lost and has accepted the responsibility of being the leader of the NW and has made hard decisions. I don't see how he can get anymore of a "man" than he already is. Don't think if there are residual effects from so traumatic that it'd simply go away. I tried to do a quick Google search on theories on Jon going mad and didn't really find anything at first glance(besides using the idea of Targaryen=mad, Jon is probably a Targaryen so he's probably going to be mad). 

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26 minutes ago, WildlingWitch said:

I personally don't believe that Jon will go mad or become unJon but I do think that characters in the books will see Jon as going mad.

In ADWD he has already started talking about studying and communicating with the dead which we know is because he wants to discover how to defeat the 'Others' however characters within the books are not likely to understand that and think he is going mad/switching sides/whatever else.

Also studying the dead just sounds creepy.

He's doing that because he wants find out their weaknesses. Because you know knowledge is power and the less you know of your enemy the less power you have over them.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

I agree that jon won t become a different person or go mad. But grrm opinion of gandalf is that people return from death as less than what they were.

Do you think he uses this ideology for unCat and unBeric but will use a loophole with jon? Because if he goes into ghost it isn t a true death.

Because it is difficult to imagine that jon being influenced by ghost to be a bad thing. And there are a lot of things that jon might gain from this experience.Like being better attuned to his magical gifts, some guidance/visions from bran or acquiring so ability/instinct from ghost. While on the negative side jon might become more animalistic though I have no real idea of what this would mean... eat any kind of meat? piss in public? growl? ghost isn t a dumb or violent animal for jon to have anger issues or becoming a brute...

That's a fair point. Ghost's personality like (all the dire wolves), seems to be of that of its master. 

But, still I can't help think the mind would have a sever shock having been displaced twice. 

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14 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

The NW is already severely depleted of man power, and with the killing of Jon there seems to be an almost obvious outcome of civil war among the different factions of the Wall.  I mean, the wildlings outnumber the NW but there is some support for the conspirators Marsh and Whittlestick among the builders and stewards

The wildlings(at least the ones with Tormund) generally do not want to fight. They want to live no?They like Jon but they also liked Mance but when Stannis burned him (who they thought was him*), they didn't do anything.  And Jon was massively unpopular to the point I'd be surprised I'd be surprised if there are any more than a handful of brothers who even like Jon. 

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The NW is in no real danger. People constantly forget that Castle Black is not the Watch. Even if the wildlings killed every men there, this would have no effect on the other castles, especially not Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. It is not as if many sworn brothers are still at Castle Black, anyway. Not after Mormonts ranging, the Battle at the Bridge of Skulls, Styr's attack on Castle Black, and the fight against Mance. And after Jon's decision to man many of the other castles.

It is not that those wildlings have a plan. Some might be willing to avenge Jon, but not all of them. Others will likely jump on the chance to piss on Jon's corpse and the vows they swore him, and make off down south to steal themselves some women and enjoy their life in a warm and sunny place.

How things go after Jon's death is a tough call. If I were Marsh my men would already control the wildlings hostages. That way I'd have them by their balls. Those who'll survive the burning of and or in the Shieldhall, that is. Butchering scores of men shouldn't be that easy if they are drunk and your men are the only ones armed with good steel (as Lord Steward, Marsh should also be able to control the access to the armory).

In any case, the beginning of TWoW will be much more fun if everything goes to hell at the Wall.

Selyse isn't a factor in all that. At least not when it comes to fighting. She has only a very small retinue in addition to the men Stannis left with Melisandre. She might approve of the assassination of Jon - or not. I honestly doubt she'll approve since Marsh isn't likely to protect her and her daughter from the Boltons. Not to mention that Jon was actually killed immediately after he broke his vows to avenge Stannis - and defend both her and her daughter. She may not like him but she must have been aware that he was an ally.

As to madness and all - this whole clinically madness thing is nonsense. We won't get that in this series. There is no POV that even remotely reads like he or she is resembling - or could resemble - people like Aerion Brightflame or Aerys II in the future.

Madness in the sense of a 'mad king' - which basically means an extreme king, having strange, silly, or stupid plans - we already have aplenty. Dany was 'mad' when she went into the fire, Robert was 'mad' when he preferred to go hunting rather than doing something when civil war began to threaten his kingdom, Robb was 'mad' when he married Jeyne Westerling (and so were Duncan the Small and Rhaegar Targaryen when they took their respective lovers/wives), Arya was 'mad' when she murdered Dareon, Stannis is pretty much consistently mad throughout the series, Euron is officially a madman by the judgment of pretty much anyone who met him, and Jon most definitely is 'mad' when antagonizes the Boltons for the well-being of a girl he simply no longer has a right to care for. Not to mention his decision to actually go to war over this.

All that qualifies as 'madness' by those medieval standards. Those things are the types of thing that qualify a 'mad monarch' is the biographies of ancient Roman or Chinese emperors. Those people weren't exactly clinically mad by our modern standards. They were just extreme. And were perhaps forced or encouraged to be that way by the circumstances they lived in. 

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13 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I'm really kind of struggling to even see how the NW continues to exist after the events of ADWD.  The NW is already severely depleted of man power, and with the killing of Jon there seems to be an almost obvious outcome of civil war among the different factions of the Wall.  I mean, the wildlings outnumber the NW but there is some support for the conspirators Marsh and Whittlestick among the builders and stewards.  I suppose it's possible that the wildlings just quickly subdue Marsh and Whittlestick but that doesn't account for the fact that the loyal Queen's Man Ser Patrek is now dead, killed by the wildling giant Wun-Wun.  So you have at least 3 different aggrieved factions looking for each other's blood in a highly combustible scenario.  I see a lot of blood being spilled and with the NW already outnumbered and undermanned, I sort of struggle with the idea of how the NW even survives this.

Assuming the NW does somehow survive, I'm thinking Jon could possibly be out of commission for a while (maybe even the entirety of TWOW), if so I'd imagine by the time Jon wakes up the NW will be dead anyway.  

But yeah, I don't really see Jon going "Well I died so now I'm free from my oath" but I could possibly see an angry and pissed off Jon basically saying "screw my oath and screw the NW."

Don t forget that there are like less than 50 queensmen at castle black and that selise must want to run. I mean, she just heard that stannis died and the boltons want her and her daughter... The last thing in her mind is fighting the watch.

Then mel is either going bananas and try to ressurect stannis, don t believe the PL and hide or appear sudenly and say she can save jon.

The conflict between the wildlings, bowen supporters and jon suporters present at the stabing is the main prob. Either bowen is easily arrested/killed or things could go very bad. And if the wildlings start killing brothers I don t think jon's peace will hold when he awakes.In addition it shows how bad the NW really is. They rebelled against  their last 2 LC... Who would want to be LC?

And jon being dead for a while is a bad idea that became popular. Why would anyone keep jon's body for weeks or months frozen somewhere? And is jon's body supposed to work well after being frozen for so long? I could see him being in a coma/fever dream for a while, but not more than that...

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21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That's a fair point. Ghost's personality like (all the dire wolves), seems to be of that of its master. 

But, still I can't help think the mind would have a sever shock having been displaced twice. 

He will certainly pay more atention to possible betrayals. And don t trust in people so easily. Basically pay more atention to potential schemers against him.

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