Is Jon Snow going to go mad?

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

 

Seriously, I can think of only a few that can be considered Mad by modern standards.  Aerys, Catelyn in the end, Patchface, and

 

How about Cersi? I know she's not there she's been growing increasingly paranoid and now with her uncle dead (apparently at the hands of Tyrion), and what has happened to her in the recent year I see her being on the brink. 

Yes, I realize the Cersi  mad queen theory has been discussed a plenty.

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I have to agree with @LynnS here. The quote actually says the memory of all warmth was leaving. That would imply that his body has in fact already lost all warmth.

Jon also doesn't feel the next blade; so I wonder if he has already warged into Ghost. In any case, I think we're talking resurrection rather than returning to a living body. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

Jon was already showing signs of instability in the last book.  He died before it developed. 

[Light a wight tonight]

On 1/16/2018 at 3:22 PM, divica said:

Mostly because bran's vision of all warmth leaving him and him only feeling the cold in the last chapter. In adition there are a lot of hints about jon going into ghost.

However you might be right. He doesn t die but gets stuck on ghost because he doesn t know how to get out? If the mountain survived a spear to the stomach for a couple of days jon should be able to survive some stabbings for a while lol.

In adition, grrm has to have a plan to get jon out of the wall. Unless the idea is to use robbs will... But as jon sworn to be in the NW to the old gods I don t think robbs will will be enough...

I theorize that Jon is seriously wounded and has passed out from shock and loss of blood. He's rushed into the cold-storage area under the wall (why does GRRM give us the tour of that facility if not to tie it into the story line?) where he "is reborn" (recovers) amid the salt and smoke used to cure the hams. Reducing body temperature can increase the viability of a severely injured body. It is known. 

Then Melisandre glamours one of the corpsicles that Jon has stored in the ice cells to look like Jon, and that is cremated with full honors. While that's going on Jon and Ghost creep out the back door. Lord Commander Jon Snow is no more and Jon is free to pursue any agenda he chooses. 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I theorize that Jon is seriously wounded and has passed out from shock and loss of blood. He's rushed into the cold-storage area under the wall (why does GRRM give us the tour of that facility if not to tie it into the story line?) where he "is reborn" (recovers) amid the salt and smoke used to cure the hams. Reducing body temperature can increase the viability of a severely injured body. It is known. 

Then Melisandre glamours one of the corpsicles that Jon has stored in the ice cells to look like Jon, and that is cremated with full honors. While that's going on Jon and Ghost creep out the back door. Lord Commander Jon Snow is no more and Jon is free to pursue any agenda he chooses. 

Actually are there are meadieval healing methods that use salt and heat to heal wounds?

Ok, my friend goodle said there is! Did you know that when dressing some wounds it is good to soak the gauze in saline? 

Woudn t it be better that salt and smoke refer to mechanisms used to heal jon instead of to make ham lol?

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Many will put forth that he already started showing signs of madness during his pov chapters in the last book.  I won't say they're wrong because the Hardhome plan and the Divorce-Arya-from-Ramsay plan were stupid things to even consider.  All that aside, it is most likely that Jon comes back as a wight raised by the WW.  He will never know warmth again.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Time spent in Ghost will probably make Jon more aggressive, maybe even less diplomatic. Up until his stabbing he is quite reserved, and patient, even with the likes of Slynt. I hope Ghost fusing with Jon makes him a bit more like Jaime prior to his maiming. 

  

[Lord Varys]

27 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Time spent in Ghost will probably make Jon more aggressive, maybe even less diplomatic. Up until his stabbing he is quite reserved, and patient, even with the likes of Slynt. I hope Ghost fusing with Jon makes him a bit more like Jaime prior to his maiming.

Then he would be dead again in a fortnight. Jon is never likely to resemble Jaime in any way, because Jaime is basically a synthesis of great ability and privilege, making him as full of himself as only the ruling class can be.

Jon will always remember who and what he is, and even if he eventually learns about his true parentage, his childhood and youth as a bastard is not going away.

The Ghost thing should make him more wolfish - I accept him to prefer his meat raw or very bloody after his return, no longer liking to sleep in a bed, and abandon/having difficulty with other basic human conventions. And he might have a much bleaker view of humanity and other human beings after that. Both because he was an animal for quite some time, but also because he was killed by humans he trusted.

[The Commentator]

On 1/19/2018 at 8:51 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Jon was already showing signs of instability in the last book.  He died before it developed. 

True.  Ofcourse he can come back a wight and slowly lose his mind like Beric and Stoneheart.  

[TheThreeEyedCow]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Then he would be dead again in a fortnight. Jon is never likely to resemble Jaime in any way, because Jaime is basically a synthesis of great ability and privilege, making him as full of himself as only the ruling class can be.

Jon will always remember who and what he is, and even if he eventually learns about his true parentage, his childhood and youth as a bastard is not going away.

The Ghost thing should make him more wolfish - I accept him to prefer his meat raw or very bloody after his return, no longer liking to sleep in a bed, and abandon/having difficulty with other basic human conventions. And he might have a much bleaker view of humanity and other human beings after that. Both because he was an animal for quite some time, but also because he was killed by humans he trusted.

Perhaps. But I did say a "bit" like Jaime. Not a carbon copy. Jon needs more aggro. He needs to put down threats quicker and not expect people to just obey dutifully. That attitude got Ned killed so I think we need Jon to be a little less Ned if he hopes to survive the LN or anything afterwards.

I keep thinking about that moment in ADWD when he blacks out and absolutely wrecks Iron Emmet. And when he wrench's one spear from the frozen ground whilst the other spears are removed by a pair of rangers. Jon is deadly, and with a bit less restraint, I see him as not only a fighter who can crush multiple foes, but the type of man the Westrossi and Wildings revere.   

I'd also argue that Jon is already a synthesis of great ability and privilege. He has this pointed out to him early on when he joins the NW. The difference is that he has some humility in him. Jaime needed to loose a hand before he learned a different way.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 1/18/2018 at 5:37 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How about Cersi? I know she's not there she's been growing increasingly paranoid and now with her uncle dead (apparently at the hands of Tyrion), and what has happened to her in the recent year I see her being on the brink. 

Yes, I realize the Cersi  mad queen theory has been discussed a plenty.

You're guilty, dear sir.  Of letting hbo sway your ideas. 

Cersei is mean (cruel, not stingy).  She has no ethics and got a start with murder.  I guess that's homicidal?  Or just born mean.  It's not like she had a hard childhood.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

On January 24, 2018 at 8:38 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

You're guilty, dear sir.  Of letting hbo sway your ideas. 

Cersei is mean (cruel, not stingy).  She has no ethics and got a start with murder.  I guess that's homicidal?  Or just born mean.  It's not like she had a hard childhood.  

Eh show Cersi isn't mad.

Ruthless, vengeancful  and ready to die yes, but not mad.

Book Cersi has always been a little bit of a psychopath (like her TV counterpart), true, but her POV chapters in ADWD show she's a very fragile state mentally and she's getting increasingly deranged and paranoid.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 1/20/2018 at 2:31 PM, divica said:

Actually are there are meadieval healing methods that use salt and heat to heal wounds?

Ok, my friend goodle said there is! Did you know that when dressing some wounds it is good to soak the gauze in saline? 

Woudn t it be better that salt and smoke refer to mechanisms used to heal jon instead of to make ham lol?

Just tying Jon to the Azor Ahai myth ("reborn amidst smoke and salt"). Not curing him like a ham. 

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Just tying Jon to the Azor Ahai myth ("reborn amidst smoke and salt"). Not curing him like a ham. 

Ok. But if smoke and salt are going to be involved it makes more sense they are used in healing his wounds rather than because his body is kept near hams...

And it could actually make sense to burn some wounds and use gauzes with salt in others.

[Damsel in Distress]

Going mad might make Jon more interesting.  Still, I think he comes back as a Wight.  It's the only way to come back from death. 

[Light a wight tonight]

30 minutes ago, divica said:

Ok. But if smoke and salt are going to be involved it makes more sense they are used in healing his wounds rather than because his body is kept near hams...

And it could actually make sense to burn some wounds and use gauzes with salt in others.

You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. The Azor Ahai legend exists, and in it the Hero is reborn among smoke and salt. There's no mention of the salt and smoke effecting the rebirth, just that it takes place in their presence. Somewhere that features smoke and salt, maybe a burning castle by the sea. Melisandre tries to make the case that Stannis qualifies. 

It's just that Jon's attack took place near the two story elements, after a fashion, and if Jon is to have a function later in the story he needs to be free of his Watch obligations. Right or wrong my theory ties things up neatly using elements that exist in the story line.

[Damsel in Distress]

 

[Lord Varys]

On 24.1.2018 at 5:08 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Perhaps. But I did say a "bit" like Jaime. Not a carbon copy. Jon needs more aggro. He needs to put down threats quicker and not expect people to just obey dutifully. That attitude got Ned killed so I think we need Jon to be a little less Ned if he hopes to survive the LN or anything afterwards.

Well, sure, he needs to get harder. Whether he needs to be a great warrior, I really don't know. This is not an action movie, and he is not going to kill all Others and wights with a burning sword even if he gets one.

A leader doesn't have to be the greatest warrior of all time in this world.

On 24.1.2018 at 5:08 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I'd also argue that Jon is already a synthesis of great ability and privilege. He has this pointed out to him early on when he joins the NW. The difference is that he has some humility in him. Jaime needed to loose a hand before he learned a different way.  

Jon certainly is privileged in comparison to the rabble he trains with at the Wall. But he is not privileged in comparison to the really privileged people. Jon doesn't have a gilded sword, no?

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'm worried that George is taking a Painted/Warded Man approach here, where there ends up being two distinct individuals who all fully meet the requirements of the prophecy (in the former case it was Arlen and Jardir, and in this case Jon and Daenerys).

That would kind of suck, in my view, as I didn't enjoy the Arlen-Jardir equivalence while I still read the Demon Cycle series.

Make one the Prince who Was Promised and the other Azor Ahai, sure. But don't make both Daenerys and Jon fit the entire picture.

So far, Jon is the only one that can meet the symbolic Ice and Fire requirement of the series, with Daenerys only being linked to Fire. But that might change as Martin seeks to expand his "dual saviour ambiguity" gimmick.

[The Commentator]

Let's look at this from the point of view of an in-story observer.  After all, the characters labeled mad are judged by in-story characters.  From the point of view of someone watching Jon and his behavior in ADWD, yes, he has already gone mad.  Gone off the deep end as we Americans like to say.  No need to wait, he has already gone mad.