Is Jon Snow going to go mad?

[divica]

30 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I don't know where you get the impression the wildlings with Tormund don't want to fight- I would guess most of them are the same warriors who were just extremely excited to follow Jon to Winterfell to go risk their lives to rescue Mance/kill Ramsay.  They do want to fight, and badly.  They were not present for Mance's burning and had no say there.  Jon is not "massively unpopular" among the NW brothers either.  He has the support of most, if not all, the rangers throughout ADWD.

I should have clarified, yes I mean Castle Black and not the Watch in general.  Given that we have never remotely been given any POV insight into Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower, I usually equate the NW with Castle Black or the rangings north of the Wall with brothers from other towers.

I would imagine a good majority of the wildlings would not only be willing, but eager to avenge Jon.  There was a compelling thread a while back about how Jon had essentially become a de facto king of the wildlings, and even if you don't buy that, you can buy that Tormund will be eager to avenge Jon if he can and that Tormund probably has the support of many, if not all of the wildlings there.  Beyond "avenging Jon" though, the wildlings will still be motivated to act through hate of Marsh and the NW, not to mention the attack of Wun Wun (although that's probably pretty minor in the grand scheme of things).  Jon just made a grand speech playing on the wildling soldiers passion to go rescue Mance, from his POV eliciting a load roar of approval and support.  Now you have chief wildling racist hater Bowen Marsh sneak attacking the "general" who was just gonna lead a rescue party to go save your beloved Mance...can't imagine there won't be some very pissed off wildlings out for blood.

I realize Selyse's retinue is small, but I'd still imagine the death of Ser Patrek won't go over too well.  And yes, Bowen Marsh is also the chief Lannister supporter on the NW but I'm not sure Selyse would know that.  In any case, she's gonna be a lot more concerned about Stannis's apparent death and her own safety so yes, I can agree on that.

yes, agree on Stannis/Selyse, although 2 major things are still the death of Ser Patrek and Shireen/Val.  There's gotta be some payoff to Val freaking the hell out about Shireen, don't know if she will take this opportunity and the wildlings will take this opportunity to try and kill the "unclean" child.

yeah, I mean this is what I'm saying.  There's no way Tormund and the wildlings don't immediately look to attack/kill Bowen and the conspirators, and I don't see a way where that doesn't lead to all-out conflict.  

Jon being dead/out of commission for a while is just something that makes sense to me.  GRRM doesn't necessarily seem like the kind of writer who would go for a cheap cliffhanger that's resolved immediately...I would think he wants to play this out.  

You do remember tyrion drowning or arya being hit in the head by the hound or davos at blackwater...

Grrm does that kind of cliffhangers alot and resolves them very fast.

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I should have clarified, yes I mean Castle Black and not the Watch in general.  Given that we have never remotely been given any POV insight into Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower, I usually equate the NW with Castle Black or the rangings north of the Wall with brothers from other towers.

But when we are talking about the institution this simply doesn't make any sense. Especially not now that more men have been drawn out along the Wall than have been for a long time.

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I would imagine a good majority of the wildlings would not only be willing, but eager to avenge Jon.  There was a compelling thread a while back about how Jon had essentially become a de facto king of the wildlings, and even if you don't buy that, you can buy that Tormund will be eager to avenge Jon if he can and that Tormund probably has the support of many, if not all of the wildlings there.

Such theories usually have a strange understanding of the wildling culture. Tormund was just the guy who led them to the Wall. He isn't their lord or their boss or anything. The people who followed him trust him, but only up to a point - that this Jon Snow fellow can be trusted and that they will get safely behind the Wall.

That was Mance's ticket to his 'kingship', too. He isn't a real king-beyond-the Wall. The real kings-beyond-the-Wall fought wars of plunder and conquest. They did not disguise a refugee movement as a war of conquest (which basically is what Mance did). 

But the wildling kingship is based on strength. When the strong die, the unity breaks down. Their is no movement among the wildlings to avenge King Mance - a man many of the chieftains and captains had known and grown to like and respect for years - so why on earth should we assume their would be such a movement to avenge Jon? Even if we assume he was seen as a king by the wildlings - which I actually doubt - then Marsh ended that kingship with his knives. That means they are likely going to behave more or less the way they behaved after the death of Mance.

I could see Tormund - and certainly a certain number of other wildlings who made a personal connection with Jon - wanting to avenge him. That is why I think Marsh should (and did) secure the hostages. 

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Beyond "avenging Jon" though, the wildlings will still be motivated to act through hate of Marsh and the NW, not to mention the attack of Wun Wun (although that's probably pretty minor in the grand scheme of things).

They would be motivated by such 'hate' only if Marsh doesn't offer them good terms. Jon Snow was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. It is not the business of outsiders like the wildlings to interfere with the affairs of the Watch. If he doesn't use violence first and makes them understand that they all, including their women and children, would have been killed by the Boltons if Jon had indeed marched them all south they might certainly be inclined to listen.

Wun Wun is just a giant. He isn't a human being. And he isn't one of the wildlings but little more than Jon's pet at this point. I doubt anybody is going to hate anyone over Wun Wun. Especially not in light of the fact that Wun Wun actually attacked and killed one of Selyse's knights.

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Jon just made a grand speech playing on the wildling soldiers passion to go rescue Mance, from his POV eliciting a load roar of approval and support.  Now you have chief wildling racist hater Bowen Marsh sneak attacking the "general" who was just gonna lead a rescue party to go save your beloved Mance...can't imagine there won't be some very pissed off wildlings out for blood.

Well, it also depends how the killing is going to be presented to the people.

If it came to violence, etc. and Marsh gets away (or successfully sends ravens away) the wildlings will be pretty much fucked in any case because the men at the other castles will stand with Marsh, and they are professional soldiers. Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower should crush them rather easily, even if they were vastly outnumbered by the fighting men of the wildlings.

I think there will be some violence, to be sure, but I doubt that any person or faction is really going to take charge or seize power at the Wall after Jon's death. I more expect the kind of scenario that took place after Drogo's injury and Dany's stillbirth. Many wildlings are just going to quietly sneak away.

Even if Tormund successfully avenged Jon - what then? He could not possibly stay at the Wall after that.

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I realize Selyse's retinue is small, but I'd still imagine the death of Ser Patrek won't go over too well.  And yes, Bowen Marsh is also the chief Lannister supporter on the NW but I'm not sure Selyse would know that.  In any case, she's gonna be a lot more concerned about Stannis's apparent death and her own safety so yes, I can agree on that.

Well, she would have Melisandre to protect her. We got that talk about all her powders in that box for a reason. Especially the one that causes instant death. In addition, there should also be a reason as to why we learned that Melisandre thinks the shadows she might be able to birth at Castle Black might be much more powerful than elsewhere.

Both indicates that we'll see the powders in action as well as another shadow creature - perhaps one that doesn't go away after a first kill. We could even see our first male rape in the series, when Melisandre uses the spiritless (because it is still in Ghost) but already resurrected Jon body as a sperm donor to conceive more shadow assassins.

If there is a person who is likely going to be able to put down Marsh and the other leaders of the anti-Jon movement then it is actually Melisandre. She will likely have a chance to talk to them all in a safe place - the King's Tower, perhaps - and could kill them there all at once.

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

yes, agree on Stannis/Selyse, although 2 major things are still the death of Ser Patrek and Shireen/Val.  There's gotta be some payoff to Val freaking the hell out about Shireen, don't know if she will take this opportunity and the wildlings will take this opportunity to try and kill the "unclean" child.

I don't think that's going to a priority. Especially not since chances are pretty good that Selyse and Shireen are not going to remain at Castle Black once Massey shows up. They will accompany him to Braavos to actually take possession of the gold of the Iron Bank and hire those sellswords.

Val's talk about greyscale is more likely a foreshadowing of Shireen's greyscale actually resurfacing - and that's then likely going to cause some epidemic, or something. With Moqorro curing Victarion of his infection, chances are not that bad that Melisandre could also permanently cure Shireen of her greyscale if she acts quickly when it returns. But she isn't going to look better afterwards. Far to the contrary, actually. And it is likely that she is going to do that only after the plague has spread to other places.

43 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Jon being dead/out of commission for a while is just something that makes sense to me.  GRRM doesn't necessarily seem like the kind of writer who would go for a cheap cliffhanger that's resolved immediately...I would think he wants to play this out.  

The idea of a quick return makes no sense narratively. I really don't understand why people don't see that. Nobody is going to think that Jon can or that he should be resurrected. The people will have other things on their minds. Anything else would require the author to lobotomize most characters at the Wall. 

If he comes back it will be first his body (during his funeral rites, the same way Beric did) and then they will eventually find a way to reunite the spirit with the body. But chances are not bad that even his funeral is going to be postponed for days or even weeks. They could just drop the corpse in an ice cell while they have other stuff to do.

Hell, if Stannis returns to Castle Black after his victory over the Boltons the funeral could only take place then. Stannis would insist on laying Jon to rest the proper way. And before they realize that his body can be/has been accidentally resurrected they are not likely going to make efforts to get his spirit out of Ghost - assuming Jon-Ghost is going to stay with them after the assassination A direwolf isn't a lapdog. Borroq will tell them about the second life and all, but that in and of itself isn't going to help them bring Jon back - even if they wanted to do it. Which most likely nobody is going to want to do. Those people do not run around thinking about resurrecting characters that are important for the plot...

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea of a quick return makes no sense narratively. I really don't understand why people don't see that. Nobody is going to think that Jon can or that he should be resurrected. The people will have other things on their minds. Anything else would require the author to lobotomize most characters at the Wall. 

If he comes back it will be first his body (during his funeral rites, the same way Beric did) and then they will eventually find a way to reunite the spirit with the body. But chances are not bad that even his funeral is going to be postponed for days or even weeks. They could just drop the corpse in an ice cell while they have other stuff to do.

Hell, if Stannis returns to Castle Black after his victory over the Boltons the funeral could only take place then. Stannis would insist on laying Jon to rest the proper way. And before they realize that his body can be/has been accidentally resurrected they are not likely going to make efforts to get his spirit out of Ghost - assuming Jon-Ghost is going to stay with them after the assassination A direwolf isn't a lapdog. Borroq will tell them about the second life and all, but that in and of itself isn't going to help them bring Jon back - even if they wanted to do it. Which most likely nobody is going to want to do. Those people do not run around thinking about resurrecting characters that are important for the plot...

Have we ever had a corpse kept for days because people are too busy to burn it? Like the characters won t have 1 hour to burn the corpse? That doesn t make sense. specially because there is a risk that he might get wigthified. Why will they risk having to chop jon in pieces instead of giving him a burial as fast as possible? Why would anyone save jon's body until stannis gets to the Wall? They aren t even familly! There is zero relation between burying jon and stannis...

Then if they freeze the body. Is jon going to return to a frozen body? Or are you sugesting that before burning him people decide to unfreeze jon? Because both make zero sense...

Then if jon is in ghost it shouldn t be possible to bring him back like beric and cat. Unless you are saying that r'hllor will rip jon out of ghost and put him in his body... In adition, I don t remember about beric, but I think that people need to want to bring the dead person back to life while admistraning the ritual rites. It isn t something that just happens (but I am not certain).

And what I think you don t understand is that it makes much more sense for the people that know jon is in ghost to try and heal his body as fast as possible for him to return (and it is possible that a lot of wildlings and mel know about it) than for them to keep his body somewhere for weeks because they don t want to lose time burning him. Even if nobody knows it makes absolutly no sense to keep jon's dead body for a long period of time when everybody know it can be wightified.

Whatever happens to jon's body it will happen within a short period of time. Wether there is people wanting to ressurect him (mel) or healing his body for him to try to return to from ghost (several wildlings) NOBODY would keep a dead body of an important person for weeks near the Wall. It simply doesn t make sense.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

1. Ok first having an obsession, having a feeling of emotional inferioty, intellectual inferioty  are not in themselves madness.

2. Baelor was extremely devout and only started acting really insane after having bitten a hundred times by snakes.

3. Aegon IV was simply a drunken obese lout on his death bed legitized all his bastards.  He was overly sentimental at the end of his life and wanted to make amends with most of his children, he wasn't  "mad".

4. How is Aegon II mad?

1. In ASOIAF world it is. Rhaegel, son of Daeron II, was frequently dancing naked in Red Keep. Those are actions of a mentally unstable/unnormal person. Many Targaryens were not exectly mad, more like mentally disabled, though people referred to them as having Targaryen madness.

2. Baelor did many weird things even before that insident with snakes. For example going alone to Dorne, under those circumstances, was insanity. And he always had revultion to sex, which is also not exactly normal.

3. Aegon IV was obsessed with eating, drinking and f*cking. That's a mental deceases - food addiction is mental decease; alcoholism is a psychiatric disorder; sexual addiction is sexual dependency, hypersexuality, and compulsive sexual behavior. It is also known as nymphomania in females and satyriasis in males.

Aegon IV even gave away a dragon's egg, to have sex with three maiden daughters of Lord that he visited (the egg that was prize in Tournament at Whitewalls, in third novell of Dunk & Egg series).

4. Same as Aerys II' obsession was burning people alive and watching it, Aegon II' was burning people and feeding them to his dragon, and watching it. In 130 he did this first to Grand Maester Gerardys, and then to his own sister Rhaenyra. And he even forced her son Aegon III, to also watch it. Same as Aegon IV, he also had food addiction and sex addiction, though not as severe.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, divica said:

Have we ever had a corpse kept for days because people are too busy to burn it? Like the characters won t have 1 hour to burn the corpse? That doesn t make sense. specially because there is a risk that he might get wigthified. Why will they risk having to chop jon in pieces instead of giving him a burial as fast as possible? Why would anyone save jon's body until stannis gets to the Wall? They aren t even familly! There is zero relation between burying jon and stannis...

It is pretty easy to imagine why this might happening - for one, Marsh himself cannot have any interest in giving Jon a proper burial because that's going to rub the assassination in anybody's face yet again. But he also is not likely to desecrate the body. Thus it might be thrown into an ice cell, just as the other bodies Jon is storing there were.

Tormund might care to give Jon a proper burial, but he might not be there or alive to do that. If he died shortly after Jon in the fighting this could add to the overall confusion.

The risk of corpses south of the Wall becoming wights are about zero considering the magic in the Wall.

We also have no real grasp on the time line. How far away is Justin Massey when Jon is executed? How far behind is Stannis, assuming he is willing/won his battles? We don't know.

But if there is violence, chaos, and anarchy at Castle Black in the wake of Jon's death then burying him will essentially be nobody's concern. Securing power and/or defeating the enemies/staying alive will be the top priority.

13 hours ago, divica said:

Then if they freeze the body. Is jon going to return to a frozen body? Or are you sugesting that before burning him people decide to unfreeze jon? Because both make zero sense...

Well, if they build a pyre for his body he might thaw in time. Or, who knows, the kiss of fire might do that for him. If he is going to be resurrected his body will be imbued with and/or changed by magic in any case. 

13 hours ago, divica said:

Then if jon is in ghost it shouldn t be possible to bring him back like beric and cat. Unless you are saying that r'hllor will rip jon out of ghost and put him in his body... In adition, I don t remember about beric, but I think that people need to want to bring the dead person back to life while admistraning the ritual rites. It isn t something that just happens (but I am not certain).

Thoros just wanted to give his buddy Beric the last rites according to his faith. He had no intention of bringing the man back to life.

I assume that only Jon's body is going to be resurrected by the kiss of fire. His spirit will remain in Ghost and the body will be an empty shell, pretty much like Drogo was. There is no reason to believe that the magic is going to affect the spirit, too, if that is locked in Ghost.

13 hours ago, divica said:

And what I think you don t understand is that it makes much more sense for the people that know jon is in ghost to try and heal his body as fast as possible for him to return (and it is possible that a lot of wildlings and mel know about it) than for them to keep his body somewhere for weeks because they don t want to lose time burning him. Even if nobody knows it makes absolutly no sense to keep jon's dead body for a long period of time when everybody know it can be wightified.

See above.

13 hours ago, divica said:

Whatever happens to jon's body it will happen within a short period of time. Wether there is people wanting to ressurect him (mel) or healing his body for him to try to return to from ghost (several wildlings) NOBODY would keep a dead body of an important person for weeks near the Wall. It simply doesn t make sense.

See above. And there are already quite a few corpses stored in those ice cells, are they not?

[divica]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is pretty easy to imagine why this might happening - for one, Marsh himself cannot have any interest in giving Jon a proper burial because that's going to rub the assassination in anybody's face yet again. But he also is not likely to desecrate the body. Thus it might be thrown into an ice cell, just as the other bodies Jon is storing there were.

Tormund might care to give Jon a proper burial, but he might not be there or alive to do that. If he died shortly after Jon in the fighting this could add to the overall confusion.

The risk of corpses south of the Wall becoming wights are about zero considering the magic in the Wall.

You do know that jon put corpses in the ice cells so that they could be wightified right?

If there is a place nobody should keep a dead body they care about is in an cell...

Then are you saying that instead of getting rid of the body marsh would put jon in an cell where anyone that passed through the cell would think of it? And that instead of burning jon corpse together with the rest of the people that might die in the clash after the stabbing jon would have special treatment? Or that marsh wouldn t have private burial for jon?

In addition, the watch had 2 dead bodies that turned into wights in GoT so they obviously don t want dead bodies left alone... Don t mix your knowledge with the knowledge of the characters.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We also have no real grasp on the time line. How far away is Justin Massey when Jon is executed? How far behind is Stannis, assuming he is willing/won his battles? We don't know.

But if there is violence, chaos, and anarchy at Castle Black in the wake of Jon's death then burying him will essentially be nobody's concern. Securing power and/or defeating the enemies/staying alive will be the top priority.

It is irrelevant how close justin is to the Wall. He doesn t have a way to send word to Stannis. And at most Stannis is in winterfel which is about 3 weeks of travel time from the Wall with good weather. However it isn t a kings duty to bury a LC he isn t close with and Stannis has to end his fight with the boltons... 

After the conflict whoever is in charge will take care of the dead bodies... Wether it is the wildlings or the NW nobody leaves a bunch of dead bodies alone. And jon's corpse won t have a diferent treatment than the other bodies unless he isn t dead yet or people (wildlings/mel) know they can treat his body so that he can return there.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if they build a pyre for his body he might thaw in time. Or, who knows, the kiss of fire might do that for him. If he is going to be resurrected his body will be imbued with and/or changed by magic in any case. 

Thoros just wanted to give his buddy Beric the last rites according to his faith. He had no intention of bringing the man back to life.

I assume that only Jon's body is going to be resurrected by the kiss of fire. His spirit will remain in Ghost and the body will be an empty shell, pretty much like Drogo was. There is no reason to believe that the magic is going to affect the spirit, too, if that is locked in Ghost.

I seriously think you are wrong about thoros. You sometimes remember the text wrong and I think this is one of them. I could swear thoros just wanted his friend back while giving him the rites but I am not certain... 

And acording to one of ssm I don t know how well a red priest revival would work with jon inside ghost. Acording to the interview martin said that unberic and uncat are firewights as in their bodies are animated by fire or something similar. So jon would skinchange from ghost into a dead body that is moved through fire magic... It is possible but also very weird.

But the truth is that it makes zero sense to keep jon's dead body for a long period of time if no one believes he can return from ghost.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, divica said:

You do know that jon put corpses in the ice cells so that they could be wightified right?

If there is a place nobody should keep a dead body they care about is in an cell...

I think Bran's vision tells us that he is put into an ice cell:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

"The memory of warmth fled from him" - this is usually a description used to refer to someone who is dead.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

Sleep is another way of referring to someone who is dead.  Jorah asks Dany if she can wake the dead. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

As we know in this story, you can wake the dead as though they are merely sleepers.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

"Aye." Leathers hesitated. "M'lord."

The living wildlings Jon sent off to have their wounds and frostbites tended. Some hot food and warm clothes would restore most of them, he hoped, though the Hornfoot man was like to lose both feet. The corpses he consigned to the ice cells.

Given the situation, it's entirely possible that Jon will be put into an ice cell.   A little foreshadowing perhaps:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

Carved from the base of the Wall and closed with heavy wooden doors, the ice cells ranged from small to smaller. Some were big enough to allow a man to pace, others so small that prisoners were forced to sit; the smallest were too cramped to allow even that.

Jon had given his chief captive the largest cell, a pail to shit in, enough furs to keep him from freezing, and a skin of wine. It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through. A faint fecal odor greeted him, though less overpowering than he'd expected. Even shit froze solid in such bitter cold. Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

 

[divica]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think Bran's vision tells us that he is put into an ice cell:

"The memory of warmth fled from him" - this is usually a description used to refer to someone who is dead.

Sleep is another way of referring to someone who is dead.  Jorah asks Dany if she can wake the dead. 

As we know in this story, you can wake the dead as though they are merely sleepers.

Given the situation, it's entirely possible that Jon will be put into an ice cell.   A little foreshadowing perhaps:

 

how did

Quote

Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him

transform into him going into a ice cell? A cold bed can be any place in the middle of winter...

And again, if jon puts corpses in ice cells because he thinks they can be wightified there why would other people put jon's body in the ice cells? They want him to become a wight?

And

Quote

Steal stones from the structures that have collapsed to repair those still standing." The work will be hard and brutal, he might have added. You'll sleep on stone, too exhausted to complain or plot, and soon you'll forget what it was like to be warm, but you might remember what it was to be a man.

So bran's dream can mean other things besides dieing... And I think this quote is much more foreshadowing than seeing is reflex in ice.

[LynnS]

Just now, divica said:

how did

transform into him going into a ice cell? A cold bed can be any place in the middle of winter...

And again, if jon puts corpses in ice cells because he thinks they can be wightified there why would other people put jon's body in the ice cells? They want him to become a wight?

And

So bran's dream can mean other things besides dieing... And I think this quote is much more foreshadowing than seeing is reflex in ice.

I think the reference is pretty clear.  This is vision of the future followed by Bran looking into the heart of winter, which has just arrived on the doorstep.  I think Jon will be on ice for while and we'll get a Ghost/Jon POV and possibly another Tree/Bran interaction.

Why? What do you want to see happen?

[Moiraine Sedai]

Seriously, I can think of only a few that can be considered Mad by modern standards.  Aerys, Catelyn in the end, Patchface, and Aerion.

Joffrey was just a jerk istead of insane.  Robert Arryn is just spoiled and lag behind in maturity.  Viserys was fearful but he was smart enough to survive in the streets.  

Jon will lose some of his humanity and thus appear mad to people but it's the wildness of the wolf coming through.  I don't think he'll be barking at the moon and marking trees but it will show in his personality if he comes back.  He will be more emotional and wolf like.  Animals live for the moment and they don't go the revenge route but expect him to be more brutal and primitive.   How badly he becomes depend on how long he stays in ghost.

 

[divica]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the reference is pretty clear.  This is vision of the future followed by Bran looking into the heart of winter, which has just arrived on the doorstep.  I think Jon will be on ice for while and we'll get a Ghost/Jon POV and possibly another Tree/Bran interaction.

Why? What do you want to see happen?

I agree we will have a interaction between ghost/jon Pov and tree/bran but we don t even need jon to be dead for it to happen. If jon warged into ghost he might be stuck there...

I am just pointing that it doesn t make sense to keep dead bodies for long periods of time and much less inside the ice cells where jon thinks corpses might be wightified and probably have snow covering their doors.

In addition

Quote

Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him

doesn t seem to be a description of a dead body in a cold place (for you an ice cell). It seems more like a person slowly dieing while sleeping in a cold place.

Then ghost seems to know of a cave where he can feel summer, so why not comunicate with bran?

Quote

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.  (in Jon I ADwD (ghost sarted the night sleeping with jon so it isn t far))

 

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

I agree we will have a interaction between ghost/jon Pov and tree/bran but we don t even need jon to be dead for it to happen. If jon warged into ghost he might be stuck there...

What we're told is the the warmth is fleeing his body (as it would if he bled out quickly); not that it's slowly seeping away.  Of course, we'll only know later. 

We still don't know what Sam's magic horn will do.  I suspect it wakes the sleepers and Ghost may not survive the next book forcing Jon from the direwolf.  The question is whether or not he can be called back to his body by some means. We still don't how Coldhands can exist as neither a fire wight or an ice wight.

[divica]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What we're told is the the warmth is fleeing his body (as it would if he bled out quickly); not that it's slowly seeping away.  Of course, we'll only know later. 

This is entirely LynnS interpretation. We have no idea how fast the warmth is leaving. We can only be certain than in Bran's vision at most jon is dieing (and not a dead body dumped in an ice cell).

But I don t see a relation between bleeding out and freezing. I see a relation between freezing and your body not functioning weel enough to fight of the cold.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We still don't know what Sam's magic horn will do.  I suspect it wakes the sleepers and Ghost may not survive the next book forcing Jon from the direwolf.  The question is whether or not he can be called back to his body by some means. We still don't how Coldhands can exist as neither a fire wight or an ice wight.

Sam and his horn are too far away to be of importance. And while I don t like it Jon becoming a new coldhands is possible. At least it makes sense. But I don t know if you can say cold hands isn t a fire wight. We have no idea what would happen to uncat or unberic if they were in a very cold place that would freeze their blood.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

This is entirely LynnS interpretation. We have no idea how fast the warmth is leaving. We can only be certain than in Bran's vision at most jon is dieing (and not a dead body dumped in an ice cell).

But I don t see a relation between bleeding out and freezing. I see a relation between freezing and your body not functioning weel enough to fight of the cold.

Sam and his horn are too far away to be of importance. And while I don t like it Jon becoming a new coldhands is possible. At least it makes sense. But I don t know if you can say cold hands isn t a fire wight. We have no idea what would happen to uncat or unberic if they were in a very cold place that would freeze their blood.

Yes, it's my opinion, but neither is it a wild guess.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What we're told is the the warmth is fleeing his body (as it would if he bled out quickly); not that it's slowly seeping away.  Of course, we'll only know later. 

We still don't know what Sam's magic horn will do.  I suspect it wakes the sleepers and Ghost may not survive the next book forcing Jon from the direwolf.  The question is whether or not he can be called back to his body by some means. We still don't how Coldhands can exist as neither a fire wight or an ice wight.

The ability to change skins is tied to the physical body.  Varamyr's chapter gave us the rules of skinchanging and most of what we need to know are there.  When a skin changer goes into an animal, he becomes trapped in that animal for as long as he lives if his human body dies.  It's a one-way trip with no return ticket.  If Jon goes into Ghost and dies, he will be a dw from that time forward.  

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The ability to change skins is tied to the physical body.  Varamyr's chapter gave us the rules of skinchanging and most of what we need to know are there.  When a skin changer goes into an animal, he becomes trapped in that animal for as long as he lives if his human body dies.  It's a one-way trip with no return ticket.  If Jon goes into Ghost and dies, he will be a dw from that time forward.  

Yes, but Bran isn't Varamyr's brother and he wasn't a Stark, he didn't have a friend with a magical horn and a shadowbinder with a personal interest in him.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The ability to change skins is tied to the physical body.  Varamyr's chapter gave us the rules of skinchanging and most of what we need to know are there.  When a skin changer goes into an animal, he becomes trapped in that animal for as long as he lives if his human body dies.  It's a one-way trip with no return ticket.  If Jon goes into Ghost and dies, he will be a dw from that time forward.  

actually varamyr isn t sure about that. I reread the prologue a while ago and am almost certain that varamyr thinks that as his body dies he will be stuck in an animal, but he wasn t sure. 

[The Commentator]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, but Bran isn't Varamyr's brother and he wasn't a Stark, he didn't have a friend with a magical horn and a shadowbinder with a personal interest in him.

Which could all mean nothing.  Varamyr knows a helluva lot more about skin changing than Bran, Sam, and Mel put together.  

31 minutes ago, divica said:

actually varamyr isn t sure about that. I reread the prologue a while ago and am almost certain that varamyr thinks that as his body dies he will be stuck in an animal, but he wasn t sure. 

Varamyr had a mentor and he knows more about these things than Bran, Mel, and Sam.  I think he's right about those rules.  I hope he's right about those rules.  

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Which could all mean nothing.  Varamyr knows a helluva lot more about skin changing than Bran, Sam, and Mel put together.

I expect that's all about to change.  There is a reason that Bran is an apprentice greenseer and Varamyr never could be.  Melisandre made short work of Varamyr as I recall.  Burned him right inside his eagle.

 

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

6 hours ago, divica said:

This is entirely LynnS interpretation. We have no idea how fast the warmth is leaving. We can only be certain than in Bran's vision at most jon is dieing (and not a dead body dumped in an ice cell).

I have to agree with @LynnS here. The quote actually says the memory of all warmth was leaving. That would imply that his body has in fact already lost all warmth.

Quote

Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him