What is it with questionable paternity and Robert's Rebellion?

[Angel Eyes]

It seems odd to me that there are so many theories surrounding the children born during Robert's Rebellion and its aftermath. Jon Snow is the most notable example, with his mother unknown, alongside (R+L=J), but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos). Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. There's even a theory that Robb is Brandon's son.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I agree @Angel Eyes, it is exhausting and ludicrous to keep track of all of the mystery parent theories out there.  I really hope it isn't what GRRM intended and it is just a byproduct fans of getting imaginative due to the series taking many more years to write than he originally planned.  Jon, Tyrion, Danerys, Robert Arryn, Jaime, Cersei, Robb - not to forget known false-parents for Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen - it is just too much.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

49 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

It seems odd to me that there are so many theories surrounding the children born during Robert's Rebellion and its aftermath. Jon Snow is the most notable example, with his mother unknown, alongside (R+L=J), but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos). Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. There's even a theory that Robb is Brandon's son.

Parentage is important.  We all support our favorite characters and want them to have every bit of edge possible.  Much of the vagueness in the past that open doors for theory-building is the source material.  Never in his wildest dreams did Martin believed his readers would dissect every nuance and every word in his novels.  The story is so vast and encompass a world too big for one man to dream up and create.  Martin may be an expert in medieval history but he is not an expert martial artists.  It stands to reason that some of his facts in the story will not be entirely accurate.  It doesn't jive with real world science.  It's not that easy to penetrate armor to use an example.  As far as I know, Martin doesn't have a background in genetics, psychology, and horticulture.  We can't expect any author to have all the knowledge required to build a world as vast and as detailed as SoIaF.  There will be holes in the story. 

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos)

This part is not a reason to suspect or question Dany's origin.

When Viserys and Dany lived in Braavos, Oberyn Martell came to their house, and he with Willem Darry, in presense of Titan of Braavos, signed marriage contract, according to which Viserys was going to marry with Arianne Martell. So probably Oberyn brought that lemon tree as a present, and it was planted in that house's garden, to be a symbol of their union. 

 

"Planting a tree to celebrate a marriage is an ancient tradition that is shared by numerous cultures around the world."

"According to German wedding traditions, when a baby girl is born in Germany, several trees are planted in honor of her birth. When her wedding date is set, the trees are sold, and the money is used for her dowry."

"Evergreen trees are a symbol of fertility and luck, so couples take their first steps as newlyweds on the walk to their wedding car over a path laid with fresh evergreen boughs. When the couple arrives in their home, they plant a pine tree in their yard as a representation of fertility and their hopes for the future."

 

Lemon is an evergreen tree.

So could be that that lemon tree was part of Arianne's dowry, or a symbol of a future union between Viserys and Arianne, or it was supposed to be a token that should bring luck and fertility to their union.

12 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. 

That's because of Mummers dragon from Dany's vision in THOU.

And also because of suspicious circumstances of connection between Varys and fAegon, and timing of his appearance.

Willem Darry died when Dany was 5 years old. Shortly after Jon Con arrived to Essos, he joined Golden Company. When he was in GC for 5 years, he was approached by Varys and Illyrio, who revealed to him existence of fAegon. Which means that when Willem Darry died, and Martells weren't interested enough to support a Beggar prince, even though he was their future son-in-law, Varys and Illyrio switched to another strategy.

If Beggar Prince is not good enough, then they used Plan B (which was also in the making for many years, because Jon Con didn't joined GC on his own, most likely he was lured there) - they provided to Martells a Secret Prince, who will be a warlord, supported by Golden Company, and Lord from Stormlands. So after they will seize Stormlands, they will join their forces with Martells, and attack King's Landing from two sides.

[zandru]

I'm guessing it's twofold. First, way back then before DNA tests or even blood type tests, it was difficult to determine the father, particularly in times of war, where rapine was rampant and one of the perqs, and the standard infidelity, which will be a factor so long as there is marriage. Oh, also the prevalence of socially accepted and legalized prostitution. Second, it being a feudal society where the parentage of Certain Persons is a really big deal, and primary determinant of who will rule, who gets what property, and who is permitted to have a nice and privileged lifestyle.

[zandru]

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So probably Oberyn brought that lemon tree as a present, and it was planted in that house's garden, to be a symbol of their union.

"Planting a tree to celebrate a marriage is an ancient tradition that is shared by numerous cultures around the world."

Thanks for the discussion on trees, particularly evergreen! Just an irrelevant anecdote - I once visited a German family who would get a "living Christmas tree" every year and then plant it in the yard. Their home was surrounded by a grove of 30 years' worth of Yule. It's a great tradition and perhaps also honored in Dorne.

[acwill07]

LOL at anyone thinking Robb is Brandon's son.  As far as I'm concerned, the only questionable parentage is Aegon.  We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Dany is the daughter of the mad king, but whether Aegon is real or fake is the only question IMO.

Folks want everything to be a consipiracy, but Jon Snow is not Ned and Ashara's.  I think people need to come to terms with that.

[zandru]

9 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

Folks want everything to be a consipiracy,

This. I just backed off a discussion* about how little Robert Arryn was supposedly Petyr Baelish's get. I still think it's highly unlikely. On the other hand, there needs to be an heir for that unimposing, near-deserted towerhouse in the Fingers, with its vast herd of (1 or two) sheep...   ;-)

----------

* And I'm sure they were glad to see the skeptic go!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It seems odd to me that there are so many theories surrounding the children born during Robert's Rebellion and its aftermath.

'Cause fans goin' crazy.

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Jon Snow is the most notable example, with his mother unknown, alongside (R+L=J), but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos). Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. There's even a theory that Robb is Brandon's son.

As I said, goin' crazy. There was also a theory about Bran being Olenna Tyrell, or something equally wise.

21 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

LOL at anyone thinking Robb is Brandon's son.  As far as I'm concerned, the only questionable parentage is Aegon.  We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Dany is the daughter of the mad king, but whether Aegon is real or fake is the only question IMO.

Folks want everything to be a consipiracy, but Jon Snow is not Ned and Ashara's.  I think people need to come to terms with that.

Well said, ser.

[Megorova]

10 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

Jon Snow is not Ned and Ashara's.  I think people need to come to terms with that.

I think that people need to get over ideas such as Daenerys = Dayne Heiress, or that Jon is son of Lyanna and Brandon. I myself have a few secret parentage theories

Spoiler

such as Rhaego, son of Drogo and Dany is still alive;

Ashara Dayne is alive, and after TofJ she changed her name to Jyana Reed, and she has three children with Howland Reed - Meera and Jojen Reed, and Edric Dayne;

Barristan Selmy is half-Blackfyre thru his mother, who is currently using name Quaithe;

Barristan is also father of fAegon, and his mother is Jeyne Swann, that is currently using name Septa Lemore.

but I make those theories for fun, and I got those ideas after reading what was actually in the books, not out of the blue. Though, what else to do, while we're waiting for next book?

[Lost Melnibonean]

This is the central mystery of ASOIAF...

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Daenerys IV, Clash 48

There is no doubt that this vision painted by the George was of Rhaegar. But Aegon was killed, and most readers suspect or even assume that Jon is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna. Daenerys, however is a different story. As the George as Kevan tell us, “We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn.”

The vision that was Rhaegar was looking at Daeneys when he said, "There must be one more," and, "The dragon has three heads." As Rhaegar's statement, "His is the song of ice and fire," hinted that his son is the prince that was promised, his statement, "The dragon has three heads," hinted that two more Targaryens would be revealed. Daenerys, then, was the first head of Rhaegar's dragon. The most dramatic introduction of a character since our fair dragon queen visited the House of the Undying Ones was was the reveal of Aegon at the Bridge of Dream. So, Aegon is the second head of Rhaegar's dragon. Aegon, though is actually the Blackfyre, not a Targaryen. And we know who the next big reveal is going to be don't we? Jon Snow, of course, is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So, Jon will be the third head of Rhaegar's dragon. 

So, we are supposed to be questioning Aegon and Jon, but not Daenerys. 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It seems odd to me that there are so many theories surrounding the children born during Robert's Rebellion and its aftermath. Jon Snow is the most notable example, with his mother unknown, alongside (R+L=J), but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos). Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. There's even a theory that Robb is Brandon's son.

If you are a highborn, your name can get you killed in times of geopolitical strife. When houses and dynasties are dependent on the transfer of titles and ownership from one generation to another, it is only natural to kill the heirs if your intent is to bring an end to that dynasty or house, so ergo it is only natural to hide or disguise those heirs so that even if the adults are killed the house lives on and perhaps can be restored later.

The few supposed false identities coming out of Robert's Rebellion are a pittance compared to all the fakery we are seeing now:

Arya: Arry, Weasel, Nan, Cat, Mercy, No One...

Sansa: Elayne

Bran: presumed killed, but actually the 3EC in training

Rickon: presumed killed, but with Osha on Skagos

Davos: presumed killed, but actually tracking Rickon

Mance's baby: Gilly's baby

Gilly's baby: Mance's baby

Theon: Reek

Tyrion: Hugor Hill, Rollo

Barriston Selmy: Whitebeard

 

If all of these characters were being viewed through the eyes of a PoV who did not know their true identities, would people be saying that there couldn't be this many aliases because it's just too complicated?

[zandru]

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The few supposed false identities coming out of Robert's Rebellion are a pittance compared to all the fakery we are seeing now:

Good list! Also

  - The Hound: the Gravedigger

Additional questions - Who was "Lem" Lemoncloak? Who ws the Elder Brother?

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It seems odd to me that there are so many theories surrounding the children born during Robert's Rebellion and its aftermath. Jon Snow is the most notable example, with his mother unknown, alongside (R+L=J), but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos). Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. There's even a theory that Robb is Brandon's son.

There is really only one parental mystery and that is Jon Snow. (f)Aegon really doesn't matter that much as a 5th book addition, although he will play a role. Literally everything else, Dany, Benjen, Robb  and whoever the nerds will focus on next are only there because the author cannot write in a timely manner. When it takes you two decades to get halfway through a series, and you take well over half a decade to deliver books, people start digging for anything. Things that are simple and mean nothing can take on a whole new mystery meaning on your 789th reread 

 

[cpg2016]

On 1/16/2018 at 9:41 PM, Angel Eyes said:

It seems odd to me that there are so many theories surrounding the children born during Robert's Rebellion and its aftermath. Jon Snow is the most notable example, with his mother unknown, alongside (R+L=J), but Daenerys' past is also questioned (no lemon trees in Braavos). Aegon son of Elia/Young Griff is suggested as not being the real deal. There's even a theory that Robb is Brandon's son.

Because certain elements of the fandom don't understand the genre themes GRRM is trying to deconstruct, and thus assume that every person must have a secret identity.  Which is literally a trope GRRM is out to do away with, specifically with the juxtaposition of Jon and fAegon.

Idiots and conspiracy theorists (though I repeat myself) can't be stopped, just ignored.

[Angel Eyes]

On 1/17/2018 at 10:58 AM, acwill07 said:

 

Folks want everything to be a consipiracy, but Jon Snow is not Ned and Ashara's.  I think people need to come to terms with that.

It'd be funny, considering the direction that the TV series is going, if it turns out that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son. 

[Dimmu Borgir]

In an all-out war like this, wouldn't there lots of rape going on - i.e. questionable paternities? Seriously though, I agree, it's getting out of hand. However, I thought that Aegon being a fake (at least not Rhaegar and Elia's son) was pretty much agreed upon? I'm no theorist myself, but that's the impression that I got from this forum.

[Nevets]

The only parentage mysteries that have any real legs for me are Jon and Aegon/Young Griff.  Jon is pretty clearly the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and I have doubts that we will ever get a definitive answer about Aegon (although his story is fishy as all hell).  I have seen suggestions about Daenerys not being Aerys and Rhaelle's daughter, but I have yet to see a theory that makes real sense.

The only other possibility that I can see is Allyria Dayne being the daughter of Ashara Dayne and either Brandon or Ned Stark.  While the possibility is intriguing, I doubt it will have any effect on the story.

10 minutes ago, Dimmu Borgir said:

In an all-out war like this, wouldn't there lots of rape going on - i.e. questionable paternities? Seriously though, I agree, it's getting out of hand. However, I thought that Aegon being a fake (at least not Rhaegar and Elia's son) was pretty much agreed upon? I'm no theorist myself, but that's the impression that I got from this forum.

While I expect there was quite a bit of that sort of thing, it would mostly have affected the smallfolk more than the nobility that is the focus of this story. And I think that the specific families that are the main players in this story would have been unaffected.

[Lord Lannister]

It's -Robert's- rebellion. He led by example in his rampant couplings.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

Plot device.  Creates a lot of unanswered questions.  To encourage theories.  Think of it this way.  It keeps the fans active in between books.