When the Dead Come Knocking

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious about what Dany means about a death more than death.

Also what is meant by forever howling alone in the darkness.

Bear with me for a moment because I think this may be explained by some of GRRM;s other works. I don't have all of these answers, and I know many posters here hate it when any other literary work by the same author is brought up, but this instance that you mention seems to fit his theme of deep, then deeper. In a few of his stories, he (the characters) explain there are two different types of fire, much like Dany's three fires. You think you are "there", but then you are not. It is really an existential crisis. But then in some of his stories he takes it deeper, and the best example I can think of is a short story called "The Second Kind of Lonliness"... holy hells Read it if you can or haven't already. 

Basically, it is another story that asks was it all worth it if you are left alone in the end? Your mission may be accomplished, foes defeated, but are you happy? And what happens if people forget you- did you ever exist? We see a little of that in this scene:

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Some people hurt others just because they can," said Jojen.

"And it wasn't Theon who did the killing at Winterfell," said Meera. "Too many of the dead were ironmen." She shifted her frog spear to her other hand. "Remember Old Nan's stories, Bran. Remember the way she told them, the sound of her voice. So long as you do that, part of her will always be alive in you."

[Curled Finger]

28 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Bear with me for a moment because I think this may be explained by some of GRRM;s other works. I don't have all of these answers, and I know many posters here hate it when any other literary work by the same author is brought up, but this instance that you mention seems to fit his theme of deep, then deeper. In a few of his stories, he (the characters) explain there are two different types of fire, much like Dany's three fires. You think you are "there", but then you are not. It is really an existential crisis. But then in some of his stories he takes it deeper, and the best example I can think of is a short story called "The Second Kind of Lonliness"... holy hells Read it if you can or haven't already. 

Basically, it is another story that asks was it all worth it if you are left alone in the end? Your mission may be accomplished, foes defeated, but are you happy? And what happens if people forget you- did you ever exist? We see a little of that in this scene:

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Some people hurt others just because they can," said Jojen.

"And it wasn't Theon who did the killing at Winterfell," said Meera. "Too many of the dead were ironmen." She shifted her frog spear to her other hand. "Remember Old Nan's stories, Bran. Remember the way she told them, the sound of her voice. So long as you do that, part of her will always be alive in you."

Frogs on THAT, Leech.   You have premium guest right and may bring in all the other works if it pleases you.   Alright, no that you've had your bread and salt...really good analogy in the quote, Leech.  A most thoughtful reply to our pondering LynnS.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Bear with me for a moment because I think this may be explained by some of GRRM;s other works. I don't have all of these answers, and I know many posters here hate it when any other literary work by the same author is brought up, but this instance that you mention seems to fit his theme of deep, then deeper. In a few of his stories, he (the characters) explain there are two different types of fire, much like Dany's three fires. You think you are "there", but then you are not. It is really an existential crisis. But then in some of his stories he takes it deeper, and the best example I can think of is a short story called "The Second Kind of Lonliness"... holy hells Read it if you can or haven't already. 

 

Interesting.  At least one of Dany's fires is spiritual fire:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

[Faera]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yah phone typing sucks, but you did remarkably well with spelling and punctuation.  Faera, I look forward to so many conversations with you it's really nice to have you here.   Let's get to it. 

Proof of the death of anyone in this topic is interpretive at this point.  I've gone back and forth with all 3.  You've read Jon's stabbing with the eyes of a believer.   He can be stronger than the assault and something much larger than small men will do him in.   I get that completely.  I do like the qualification of Jon being reunited with his body as opposed to a simple (yah, I'm always amazed at what I consider simple now) kiss of life or some other ritual that would interrupt a soul rest.  

Brienne fans unite - fist bump- it's clear what I think of Brienne, though I tried very carefully to hide it in the OP.  She's got to change with her experiences.  Perhaps her hanging was a near death experience even though she was far too worried about Pod for us to see any tunnels or white lights she may have seen.  Whatever happened to her at the end of the rope was immensely important to her character.  

I wonder if we will see Jamie hang?  At any rate, I do appreciate your thoughtful reply and hope you will jump in wherever you feel compelled to do so, Lady.

When it comes to Jon, I see it like a situation with Bran. He was unconscious for weeks, perhaps Jon's body will still be alive despite the blood loss but they just can't wake him. Thing is that if Jon's body died, I can't see them not burning him. Not just because they fight fear he'll turn but as a kindness. Those still loyal to Jon (which is actually most of the people at the Wall) would do him that mercy asap if he died. For that reason, I don't think Jon does fully. His body will be alive but the trauma of his attack will drive him into Ghost and he won't want to come out. The second life is sweeter and Jon might be happy in Ghost... until perhaps Bran reminds him that he has to save those left behind. I am very interested to see if the Three-Eyed-Crow drops in on him at one point. There is this sort of unspoken rule or generally accepted theory that near-death experience or life-threatening illness are what prompts the flying dream - those who do not fight turn their lives are impaled on the spikes of many dreamers, while those who choose to keep living will fly. Jon will fly like Bran did, if the Crow visits him. However, I do think that Bran might be the one to help "call Jon back" from the point of death. People expect the answer to lie in the Red God, but I think Jon's strange connection with Bran will pay off big time. I have actually been conducting a close-read of Jon and Bran and the little weird connections and coincidences in their stories is so interesting. 

With Brienne, in someways I don't think it was her own hanging that prompted her to fight for her life but that of Podrick. We have to remember that Pod is a small boy of twelve, younger than Sansa. It reinforces that Cat's madness and corruption of the soul is complete, as she is Mother Merciless even with small children. Yet Lady Stoneheart would have killed him despite him being an innocent. Brienne, if nothing else, is a true knight who defends the weak and in that moment she had to choose between the honour of keeping her word to Jaime - or the life of an innocent. It's actually very Ned Starkish, if you believe Jon was Lyanna's son as I do, this notion that there could be honour in a lie to protect an innocent child. It puts into practice the most important lesson Jaime taught her too - that you can commit a socially terrible act that breaks an oath, yet save the lives of innocents. Brienne is learning and growing, yet in the right way - she is learning to fight for personal perception of good rather than simply junior's idea of good.

The BwB might still honour trial by combat as they did under Beric Dondarrion, so we will need to see if Jaime hangs. What I will say is that I won't be surprised if before they reach LS, Brienne breaks down and tells him the truth.

[Lady Dacey]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious about what Dany means about a death more than death.

Also what is meant by forever howling alone in the darkness.

My mind jumps to wights. Icy breath, more than death, forever in the darkness... death more than death sound to me like death by the Others and reanimation as wight.

[Lady Dacey]

@Curled Finger as always you bring us a great opportunity to discuss the layers of meaning in this amazing story. Beautiful writing and perfectly chosen quotes make your original post a delight to read and think about.

I truly agree with this:

On 17/01/2018 at 1:08 AM, Curled Finger said:

Much is made of our author’s slow progress and impossible depth of story.   That is nonsense.  Both of these plots are beautifully set up to go to the next level.  Fire or ice they are dangerously close to death if not already dead in the cases of Jon and Brienne.   There is light at the end of AFFC and ADWD, it just takes imagination to see it. 

15 hours ago, Seams said:

I've recently been examining the hand-dug graves in scenes with Shagwell / Dick Crabb, Ser Loras / Renly and (at the suggestion of @Lady Dacey) Arya / Praed, a sellsword who briefly accompanied Yoren's wagon train. Each of these burials seems to precede a rebirth. (Praed may represent the "birth" of Arya's "prayer" - the list of people she wants to kill.) So I thank you for reminding me of the parallels to Jon's gravedigging scene with the obsidian cache and these other gravediggers. Of course, I include the Quiet Isle's recently-arrived gravedigger in this group.

Hi there @Seams! A beautiful analysis as ever. I love reading what you write. In Pread's case we actually got acorns trown on top of the grave and the stated hope that a tree might grow there. It doesn't get more literal "rebirth imagery" than that, does it? Martin is rubbing the metaphor in our faces there - probably setting up our mindset for the next burials he's had us witness. It's curious that Gendry participates in the gravedigging on that ocasion and then gets his first longsword - the Smith turns into the Warrior, is that a rebirth of sorts too? (Also, I can't refrain myself from adding: about the birth of Arya's prayer, it makes me cringe whenever people refer to it as a list of people "she wants to kill" when it's actually a list of people "she wants dead" - there's a big difference there!) but I'm deviating from the OP. 

15 hours ago, Seams said:

All that palaver is preface to explain the line, "Podrick never lifted his eyes." As Pod is threatened with death, he does not lift his eyes. With the known association of eyes / Ice and the connection between Ser Ilyn and the sword Ice, I think the author is telling us that Pod refuses to engage in violence to save his own life; refuses to lift his "Ice". Brienne, on the other hand, calls out, "Sword!" She wants to save her companions, especially mini-Justice, Podrick Payne.

Seams, that's just beautiful. Thanks for highlighting it. I too think the Paynes have a significance to the story that is usually underestimated by readers. There are just too many parallels between Ilyn and Pod for us to dismiss the symbolic role they play. 

 

[Curled Finger]

19 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

@Curled Finger as always you bring us a great opportunity to discuss the layers of meaning in this amazing story. Beautiful writing and perfectly chosen quotes make your original post a delight to read and think about.

I truly agree with this:

Hi there @Seams! A beautiful analysis as ever. I love reading what you write. In Pread's case we actually got acorns trown on top of the grave and the stated hope that a tree might grow there. It doesn't get more literal "rebirth imagery" than that, does it? Martin is rubbing the metaphor in our faces there - probably setting up our mindset for the next burials he's had us witness. It's curious that Gendry participates in the gravedigging on that ocasion and then gets his first longsword - the Smith turns into the Warrior, is that a rebirth of sorts too? (Also, I can't refrain myself from adding: about the birth of Arya's prayer, it makes me cringe whenever people refer to it as a list of people "she wants to kill" when it's actually a list of people "she wants dead" - there's a big difference there!) but I'm deviating from the OP. 

Seams, that's just beautiful. Thanks for highlighting it. I too think the Paynes have a significance to the story that is usually underestimated by readers. There are just too many parallels between Ilyn and Pod for us to dismiss the symbolic role they play. 

 

Welcome, Lady!   Both my alarms have gone off and I've got to go to work, much as I would rather stay in this conversation with you!  Apart from being a symbolism wiz, our @Seams is a well seasoned sword geek.   Get her to share her findings of the Peyne's potential significance in the sword realm!   Back this evening to address new posts...

[Megorova]

On 17.01.2018 at 5:08 AM, Curled Finger said:

She screamed a word. AFFC Brienne VIII

Brienne seems more aware of what’s happening around her.  Jon registers pain as acutely as she does.  We know the word Brienne screams is sword

Really? And why would she scream "Sword!" Can this save her? No, it can't. So why would she scream "Sword"? She wouldn't kill Jaime. She left Renly, she left Catelyn, she won't leave Jaime too. So most likely she screamed the only word that could have saved her, the only word that could have stopped LSH.

"ARYA"

Brienne screamed "Arya", and this made LSH to stop their execution. Then Brienne told LSH about her encounter with Arya and the Hound, and thus LSH didn't executed them.

Though maybe I'm confusing it with other media, and if in books Brienne didn't met with Arya, she met with Sansa, and can tell to LSH about that encounter.

From Wikia: "Seeking Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth acts on information that she received from Timeon of the Brave Companions that Sansa had been carried away by the Hound. Her travels with Septon Meribald take her to a septry on the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother of the monastery informs her that it was the younger sister that Sandor made off with, Arya Stark. The Elder Brother knows they were headed for Saltpans"

Thus Brienne can tell to LSH that Arya went to Saltpans. And LSH may think that Arya was going to The Eyrie. So she will go there, and instead will find there Sansa.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Really? And why would she scream "Sword!" Can this save her? No, it can't. So why would she scream "Sword"? She wouldn't kill Jaime. She left Renly, she left Catelyn, she won't leave Jaime too. So most likely she screamed the only word that could have saved her, the only word that could have stopped LSH.

"ARYA"

Brienne screamed "Arya", and this made LSH to stop their execution. Then Brienne told LSH about her encounter with Arya and the Hound, and thus LSH didn't executed them.

Though maybe I'm confusing it with other media, and if in books Brienne didn't met with Arya, she met with Sansa, and can tell to LSH about that encounter.

From Wikia: "Seeking Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth acts on information that she received from Timeon of the Brave Companions that Sansa had been carried away by the Hound. Her travels with Septon Meribald take her to a septry on the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother of the monastery informs her that it was the younger sister that Sandor made off with, Arya Stark. The Elder Brother knows they were headed for Saltpans"

Thus Brienne can tell to LSH that Arya went to Saltpans. And LSH may think that Arya was going to The Eyrie. So she will go there, and instead will find there Sansa.

You may want to check this out: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Miscon_Report

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Really? And why would she scream "Sword!" Can this save her? No, it can't. So why would she scream "Sword"? She wouldn't kill Jaime. She left Renly, she left Catelyn, she won't leave Jaime too. So most likely she screamed the only word that could have saved her, the only word that could have stopped LSH.

"ARYA"

Brienne screamed "Arya", and this made LSH to stop their execution. Then Brienne told LSH about her encounter with Arya and the Hound, and thus LSH didn't executed them.

Though maybe I'm confusing it with other media, and if in books Brienne didn't met with Arya, she met with Sansa, and can tell to LSH about that encounter.

From Wikia: "Seeking Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth acts on information that she received from Timeon of the Brave Companions that Sansa had been carried away by the Hound. Her travels with Septon Meribald take her to a septry on the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother of the monastery informs her that it was the younger sister that Sandor made off with, Arya Stark. The Elder Brother knows they were headed for Saltpans"

Thus Brienne can tell to LSH that Arya went to Saltpans. And LSH may think that Arya was going to The Eyrie. So she will go there, and instead will find there Sansa.

It's funny how sure you seem to be of your own 'theories'. We know she screamed "sword" because Martin said so. And she had been given the choice between "sword" or "noose", so it makes a lot of sense se would scream "sword!" to avoid her death. 

Also, Brienne has never met Arya. She doesn't even know how Arya looks like. The two never interacted. I don't know what Brienne could tell Lady Stoneheart about Arya. 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You may want to check this out: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Miscon_Report

Thank you for the link.

[Curled Finger]

14 hours ago, Faera said:

When it comes to Jon, I see it like a situation with Bran. He was unconscious for weeks, perhaps Jon's body will still be alive despite the blood loss but they just can't wake him. Thing is that if Jon's body died, I can't see them not burning him. Not just because they fight fear he'll turn but as a kindness. Those still loyal to Jon (which is actually most of the people at the Wall) would do him that mercy asap if he died. For that reason, I don't think Jon does fully. His body will be alive but the trauma of his attack will drive him into Ghost and he won't want to come out. The second life is sweeter and Jon might be happy in Ghost... until perhaps Bran reminds him that he has to save those left behind. I am very interested to see if the Three-Eyed-Crow drops in on him at one point. There is this sort of unspoken rule or generally accepted theory that near-death experience or life-threatening illness are what prompts the flying dream - those who do not fight turn their lives are impaled on the spikes of many dreamers, while those who choose to keep living will fly. Jon will fly like Bran did, if the Crow visits him. However, I do think that Bran might be the one to help "call Jon back" from the point of death. People expect the answer to lie in the Red God, but I think Jon's strange connection with Bran will pay off big time. I have actually been conducting a close-read of Jon and Bran and the little weird connections and coincidences in their stories is so interesting. 

With Brienne, in someways I don't think it was her own hanging that prompted her to fight for her life but that of Podrick. We have to remember that Pod is a small boy of twelve, younger than Sansa. It reinforces that Cat's madness and corruption of the soul is complete, as she is Mother Merciless even with small children. Yet Lady Stoneheart would have killed him despite him being an innocent. Brienne, if nothing else, is a true knight who defends the weak and in that moment she had to choose between the honour of keeping her word to Jaime - or the life of an innocent. It's actually very Ned Starkish, if you believe Jon was Lyanna's son as I do, this notion that there could be honour in a lie to protect an innocent child. It puts into practice the most important lesson Jaime taught her too - that you can commit a socially terrible act that breaks an oath, yet save the lives of innocents. Brienne is learning and growing, yet in the right way - she is learning to fight for personal perception of good rather than simply junior's idea of good.

The BwB might still honour trial by combat as they did under Beric Dondarrion, so we will need to see if Jaime hangs. What I will say is that I won't be surprised if before they reach LS, Brienne breaks down and tells him the truth.

Ah Faera so very well said, Lady!   I've seen mention of both Bran and the 3EC having a hand in Jon's recovery, but I've never seen it explained.   That Bran can speak to Jon in dreams is already evidence of the subconscious connection between them.   The conclusions you've drawn for an ice rebirth aren't far fetched in the least.  That Jon is gravely injured instead of dead gives entirely new meaning to Jon's rebirth.   This is much more satisfying than Melisandre being responsible for whatever becomes of Jon.    You've taken my thoughts on ice reanimation to a whole new level with the obvious.  The mind or desperation, urgency or love can pull a warg from where he sleeps.   

You've made a very good argument for severe physical trauma opening a person to some deeper life meaning.   Brienne is a true knight for all the obvious reasons, chivalry, valor, justice--all excellent reasons.   All she lacks is that subtle love of humanity in all its guises.  It became clear to us that Brienne was forming a closeness with Pod, not precisely maternal but not precisely not, either.   She is opening herself to the love of others not within her home and history.   I think it is during her hanging she begins to see this clearly.  Through her blooming love she will learn all she needs to be the True Knight for Pod, Hyle, Jamie, perhaps even what is left of Catelyn, but I think it may be mostly for herself.  I look forward to an embrace that doesn't make her uncomfortable.   

Faera, please keep us posted of the life/death connections you discover between Jon and Bran.  That was a wonderful post! 

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Really? And why would she scream "Sword!" Can this save her? No, it can't. So why would she scream "Sword"? She wouldn't kill Jaime. She left Renly, she left Catelyn, she won't leave Jaime too. So most likely she screamed the only word that could have saved her, the only word that could have stopped LSH.

"ARYA"

Brienne screamed "Arya", and this made LSH to stop their execution. Then Brienne told LSH about her encounter with Arya and the Hound, and thus LSH didn't executed them.

Though maybe I'm confusing it with other media, and if in books Brienne didn't met with Arya, she met with Sansa, and can tell to LSH about that encounter.

From Wikia: "Seeking Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth acts on information that she received from Timeon of the Brave Companions that Sansa had been carried away by the Hound. Her travels with Septon Meribald take her to a septry on the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother of the monastery informs her that it was the younger sister that Sandor made off with, Arya Stark. The Elder Brother knows they were headed for Saltpans"

Thus Brienne can tell to LSH that Arya went to Saltpans. And LSH may think that Arya was going to The Eyrie. So she will go there, and instead will find there Sansa.

I trust you've had an opportunity to check the link out that @OtherFromAnotherMother was kind enough to supply?  Although the idea that Brienne said "Arya" is fanciful and logical from the view you laid out, GRRM has put a pin in that bubble.  

Lem Lemoncloak is wearing The Hound's helm.  LSH's group is aware of what happened at Saltpans.  

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

You may want to check this out: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Miscon_Report

Thanks so much for supplying the SSM.   You were JonnyOnTheSpot, my Brother! 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

 And she had been given the choice between "sword" or "noose", so it makes a lot of sense she would scream "sword!" to avoid her death. 

 

What say you, Lady?   I take it you don't believe Brienne actually died at the end of Stoneheart's rope?  Do you think Jamie will?  

[Blackwater Revenant]

26 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks so much for supplying the SSM.   You were JonnyOnTheSpot, my Brother! 

Heh, I'm assuming when you say my brother, you do mean from another mother?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist...I'll let myself out now.

[Seams]

On 1/18/2018 at 8:15 AM, Lady Dacey said:

In Pread's case we actually got acorns trown on top of the grave and the stated hope that a tree might grow there. It doesn't get more literal "rebirth imagery" than that, does it? Martin is rubbing the metaphor in our faces there - probably setting up our mindset for the next burials he's had us witness. It's curious that Gendry participates in the gravedigging on that ocasion and then gets his first longsword - the Smith turns into the Warrior, is that a rebirth of sorts too?

The graves and giving of swords do go together, don't they? Part of a definite pattern. In each case, we have a warrior being "buried" and a sword being passed along in some way, followed by a rebirth. That rebirth often seems to involve borrowed armor. And I have a new and unexpected "warrior" to add to the list of graves: the direwolf Lady. She is paired with warrior Ned, who dies by the same sword.

Here's our list so far, all listed in order of buried warrior, who does the burying, who gets the sword, item in grave, "reborn" warrior.

Renly, buried by Ser Loras at Storm's End. Brienne takes the sword.

Brienne moved faster than Catelyn would have believed. Her own sword was not to hand, so she snatched Renly's from its scabbard and raised it to catch Emmon's axe on the downswing. A spark flashed blue-white as steel met steel with a rending crash, and Brienne sprang to her feet, the body of the dead king thrust rudely aside. Ser Emmon stumbled over it as he tried to close, and Brienne's blade sheared through the wooden haft to send his axehead spinning.

ACoK, Catelyn IV

Oddly, the item in the grave might be conveyed by one of GRRM's deliberately ambiguous phrases: I buried him with mine own hands (ASoS, Jaime VIII). It sounds as if Ser Loras put his own hands in the grave with Renly's body. The reborn warrior is Ser Garlan Tyrell, who wears Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater.

When you (Lady Dacey) called the Praed burial to my attention, you noted that Praed had been present when Yoren's group discovered an earlier grave, and that grave had a crystal on it. A crystal is a religious item associated with the new gods and trees are associated with the old gods. There is a definite religious theme in Brienne's travels in Maidenpool and Crackclaw Point. I wonder whether religious allusions are also part of this "warrior's grave / rebirth" pattern?

Another element that may be part of the pattern is the presence at the death of a false squire. Brienne is helping Renly put on his armor when Renly is killed. She isn't really a squire, but she is acting as one for Renly. Arya and Gendry and their traveling companions are not squires and no one really serves as a squire for Praed, so maybe the pattern doesn't fit here. Arya does function as a squire for The Hound but he isn't a knight and he is teaching her to kill, not to be a knight.

Praed, buried by Yoren's recruits and Arya along the road. Yoren gives the sword to Gendry. Acorns in the grave:

Come morning, when Praed did not awaken, Arya realized that it had been his coughing she had missed. They dug a grave of their own then, burying the sellsword where he'd slept. Yoren stripped him of his valuables before they threw the dirt on him. One man claimed his boots, another his dagger. His mail shirt and helm were parceled out. His longsword Yoren handed to the Bull. "Arms like yours, might be you can learn to use this," he told him. A boy called Tarber tossed a handful of acorns on top of Praed's body, so an oak might grow to mark his place.

ACoK, Arya II

Here is the Hound's burial. Grave dug by the Elder Brother. Stones and Hound-shaped helmet on the grave. I will update this if/when I find out where the Hound's sword is. We do have a reference to a sword, if not the sword itself:

"There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead."

That was another shock. "How did he die?"

"By the sword, as he had lived."

"You know this for a certainty?"

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place. That was a grievous error. Some other wayfarer found my marker and claimed it for himself. The man who raped and killed at Saltpans was not Sandor Clegane, though he may be as dangerous. The riverlands are full of such scavengers. . . . "

AFfC, Brienne VI

In another thread, I just added Nimble Dick Crabb to the list of warrior graves. His sword had just been loaned to him by Brienne (who gave him her sword so she could use Oathkeeper). But he is lamed by Shagwell's weapon before he can use the sword: "The sword she'd given him went flying from his hand and vanished in the weeds." (AFfC, Brienne IV) So the sword vanishes - no one gets it (except the weeds). He is buried at his birthplace, the Whispers, by the fool Shagwell, who also killed him. Brienne throws two gold dragon coins into the grave.

Pod was told to stay with the horses but, lucky for Brienne, he disobeys and is able to assist her by bashing one of the Brave Companions with a rock. So there's the false squire - he functions as Brienne's squire but he is not her squire because he considers Tyrion his boss and because neither Tyrion nor Brienne is a knight.

Here's the new candidate, the direwolf Lady:

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."

"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.

"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin."

AGoT, Eddard III

I may be wrong to try to fit this to the pattern, but the very deliberate return of the direwolf's body to be buried at Winterfell tipped me off to take a closer look. The presence of the sword Ice seemed to reinforce the connection because Catelyn notices that Ice is missing when Ned's bones are brought to her at Riverrun. Instead of passing along the sword or the armor of the dead warrior, it is the skin of the direwolf that is guarded against a would-be reborn wolf maid. The reader is led to understand that Ned's bones never make it to Winterfell, which makes me think there is some kind of pairing of Lady and Ned to complete this example.

The direwolf's bright golden eyes might be the things buried with her in her grave, sort of a match for the two gold dragon coins that Brienne throws in the grave of Nimble Dick.

The other thing that had led me to Lady is Pod's way of addressing Brienne as, "Ser. My Lady." Brienne is seeking Sansa and The Hound (because he has been spotted with Arya). It's possible that Brienne is the reborn warrior in the direwolf's arc. She constantly refers to Sansa as her sister, thinking this will protect the identity of her real target. Does that make Brienne a Stark sister? Unlike the direwolf Lady, however, Brienne is not trusting, after years of being stared at and made fun of.

(For what it's worth, I suspect that the "Ser. My Lady" form of address is also a way of hinting that Brienne is another Slayer - like Samwell Tarly - although I'm not sure what to do with the extra letters M, Y and D.)

Of course, Brienne also has Oathkeeper, reborn from Ice. Setting aside the possible Lady connection, the receiving of the sword made from Ice is enough to connect her to Ned's death as a "reborn" warrior.

I wonder how many of these warrior deaths there are? Would Drogo on his funeral pyre and Ygritte's body burned by Jon Snow fit the pattern?

Ned, Lady and The Hound all die by swords. Renly is killed by the sword of a shadow. Praed dies of illness. Nimble Dick has his head bashed in by a Morningstar. No clear pattern there.

If the Praed precedent is meant to apply to the others, I am fascinated by the range of "religious" items buried with each body - the hands of Ser Loras (descendant of Garth Greenhands), acorns (old gods), stones (first men?), gold dragons (money as an idol? Targaryen devotion?), direwolf eyes (or the direwolf itself as a symbol?).

On 1/18/2018 at 8:15 AM, Lady Dacey said:

(Also, I can't refrain myself from adding: about the birth of Arya's prayer, it makes me cringe whenever people refer to it as a list of people "she wants to kill" when it's actually a list of people "she wants dead" - there's a big difference there!)

You're right! I was careless. Thanks for the correction.

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Heh, I'm assuming when you say my brother, you do mean from another mother?

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist...I'll let myself out now.

Like a Dothraki wedding and 3 deaths, I consider it a dull affair if I am not forced to laugh and cackle at least 5 times in a thread.  Well played.  

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Seams said:

The graves and giving of swords do go together, don't they? Part of a definite pattern. In each case, we have a warrior being "buried" and a sword being passed along in some way, followed by a rebirth. That rebirth often seems to involve borrowed armor. And I have a new and unexpected "warrior" to add to the list of graves: the direwolf Lady. She is paired with warrior Ned, who dies by the same sword.

Here's our list so far, all listed in order of buried warrior, who does the burying, who gets the sword, item in grave, "reborn" warrior.

Renly, buried by Ser Loras at Storm's End. Brienne takes the sword.

Brienne moved faster than Catelyn would have believed. Her own sword was not to hand, so she snatched Renly's from its scabbard and raised it to catch Emmon's axe on the downswing. A spark flashed blue-white as steel met steel with a rending crash, and Brienne sprang to her feet, the body of the dead king thrust rudely aside. Ser Emmon stumbled over it as he tried to close, and Brienne's blade sheared through the wooden haft to send his axehead spinning.

ACoK, Catelyn IV

Oddly, the item in the grave might be conveyed by one of GRRM's deliberately ambiguous phrases: I buried him with mine own hands (ASoS, Jaime VIII). It sounds as if Ser Loras put his own hands in the grave with Renly's body. The reborn warrior is Ser Garlan Tyrell, who wears Renly's armor at the Battle of the Blackwater.

When you (Lady Dacey) called the Praed burial to my attention, you noted that Praed had been present when Yoren's group discovered an earlier grave, and that grave had a crystal on it. A crystal is a religious item associated with the new gods and trees are associated with the old gods. There is a definite religious theme in Brienne's travels in Maidenpool and Crackclaw Point. I wonder whether religious allusions are also part of this "warrior's grave / rebirth" pattern?

Another element that may be part of the pattern is the presence at the death of a false squire. Brienne is helping Renly put on his armor when Renly is killed. She isn't really a squire, but she is acting as one for Renly. Arya and Gendry and their traveling companions are not squires and no one really serves as a squire for Praed, so maybe the pattern doesn't fit here. Arya does function as a squire for The Hound but he isn't a knight and he is teaching her to kill, not to be a knight.

Praed, buried by Yoren's recruits and Arya along the road. Yoren gives the sword to Gendry. Acorns in the grave:

Come morning, when Praed did not awaken, Arya realized that it had been his coughing she had missed. They dug a grave of their own then, burying the sellsword where he'd slept. Yoren stripped him of his valuables before they threw the dirt on him. One man claimed his boots, another his dagger. His mail shirt and helm were parceled out. His longsword Yoren handed to the Bull. "Arms like yours, might be you can learn to use this," he told him. A boy called Tarber tossed a handful of acorns on top of Praed's body, so an oak might grow to mark his place.

ACoK, Arya II

Here is the Hound's burial. Grave dug by the Elder Brother. Stones and Hound-shaped helmet on the grave. I will update this if/when I find out where the Hound's sword is. We do have a reference to a sword, if not the sword itself:

"There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead."

That was another shock. "How did he die?"

"By the sword, as he had lived."

"You know this for a certainty?"

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place. That was a grievous error. Some other wayfarer found my marker and claimed it for himself. The man who raped and killed at Saltpans was not Sandor Clegane, though he may be as dangerous. The riverlands are full of such scavengers. . . . "

AFfC, Brienne VI

In another thread, I just added Nimble Dick Crabb to the list of warrior graves. His sword had just been loaned to him by Brienne (who gave him her sword so she could use Oathkeeper). But he is lamed by Shagwell's weapon before he can use the sword: "The sword she'd given him went flying from his hand and vanished in the weeds." (AFfC, Brienne IV) So the sword vanishes - no one gets it (except the weeds). He is buried at his birthplace, the Whispers, by the fool Shagwell, who also killed him. Brienne throws two gold dragon coins into the grave.

Pod was told to stay with the horses but, lucky for Brienne, he disobeys and is able to assist her by bashing one of the Brave Companions with a rock. So there's the false squire - he functions as Brienne's squire but he is not her squire because he considers Tyrion his boss and because neither Tyrion nor Brienne is a knight).

Here's the new candidate, the direwolf Lady:

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. "Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell."

"All that way?" Jory said, astonished.

"All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin."

AGoT, Eddard III

I may be wrong to try to fit this to the pattern, but the very deliberate return of the direwolf's body to be buried at Winterfell tipped me off to take a closer look. The presence of the sword Ice seemed to reinforce the connection because Catelyn notices that Ice is missing when Ned's bones are brought to her at Riverrun. Instead of passing along the sword or the armor of the dead warrior, it is the skin of the direwolf that is guarded against a would-be reborn wolf maid. The reader is led to understand that Ned's bones never make it to Winterfell, which makes me think there is some kind of pairing of Lady and Ned to complete this example.

The direwolf's bright golden eyes might be the things buried with her in her grave, sort of a match for the two gold dragon coins that Brienne throws in the grave of Nimble Dick.

The other thing that had led me to Lady is Pod's way of addressing Brienne as, "Ser. My Lady." Brienne is seeking Sansa and The Hound (because he has been spotted with Arya). It's possible that Brienne is the reborn warrior in the direwolf's arc. She constantly refers to Sansa as her sister, thinking this will protect the identity of her real target. Does that make Brienne a Stark sister? Unlike the direwolf Lady, however, Brienne is not trusting, after years of being stared at and made fun of.

(For what it's worth, I suspect that the "Ser. My Lady" form of address is also a way of hinting that Brienne is another Slayer - like Samwell Tarly - although I'm not sure what to do with the extra letters M, Y and D.)

Of course, Brienne also has Oathkeeper, reborn from Ice. Setting aside the possible Lady connection, the receiving of the sword made from Ice is enough to connect her to Ned's death as a "reborn" warrior.

I wonder how many of these warrior deaths there are? Would Drogo on his funeral pyre and Ygritte's body burned by Jon Snow fit the pattern?

Ned, Lady and The Hound all die by swords. Renly is killed by the sword of a shadow. Praed dies of illness. Nimble Dick has his head bashed in by a Morningstar. No clear pattern there.

If the Praed precedent is meant to apply to the others, I am fascinated by the range of "religious" items buried with each body - the hands of Ser Loras (descendant of Garth Greenhands), acorns (old gods), stones (first men?), gold dragons (money as an idol? Targaryen devotion?), direwolf eyes (of the direwolf itself as a symbol?).

You're right! I was careless. Thanks for the correction.

You know Seams, you fascinate me.  I read well on half of this post thinking the direwolf Lady?  Lyanna's statue?  I bet you didn't even try to trick me there.    Now that I understand it is Sansa's direwolf, Lady, I am so close to understanding.  Your thoughts regarding Brienne's rebirth are astounding.   I understand we are talking graves here.  Still I have to ask if/what the items left in the hanging dead or unburied dead mean?  I believe we have salt in the scattered bodies at Saltpans and apples in the mouths of some hanging Lannisters?  I get the literal deal here, homages to pigs and guest right (what else could salt be?), but you have me thinking about the offerings made to the dead, even in mockery.   

I've still got to think about Brienne's connection to Ned, which I honestly never gave much thought to.  As always, each time you are able to tie some part of a topic in with a topic of your own, the premise becomes clearer.  

Have you ever made a study of the death Brienne both comes across and causes in the story thus far?  Certainly death is a major theme in any knight's life, but those she comes across are especially nasty as seen through her eyes.   

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 10:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

Last we saw Jon Snow he knew only the cold.  He fell and bled all over everything.   He may or may not have survived the For the Watch knife attack.  Maybe one day we will know.  Last we saw Brienne she was luring Jamie away to meet The Hound who has The Girl.  Again, perhaps some day we will know what transpires with this, too.   Jon is at what Melisandre calls a hinge of the world—he’s in the closest proximity to the Others, making him stuck in a deeply ice magical place with a fire magical priestess.  Though there are weirwoods and weirwood groves and hollow hills in the Riverlands, there is not direct magical connection to ice magic at the Trident or Pennytree, but there is that curious Lady Stonehart—a good ”sort of living” example of fire magic.  Not to mention Thoros, another powerful fire magic worker.    

Much is made of our author’s slow progress and impossible depth of story.   That is nonsense.  Both of these plots are beautifully set up to go to the next level.  Fire or ice they are dangerously close to death if not already dead in the cases of Jon and Brienne.   There is light at the end of AFFC and ADWD, it just takes imagination to see it.   Jon suffers at the hands of his sworn brothers of the Nights Watch:

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …ADWD Jon VIII

 Brienne was hanged (for you, @Nittanian) along with Pod and Hyle Hunt.  Lady Stoneheart, a “sort of person” Brienne was sworn to, gives the command to hang her.  We see through Brienne’s eyes:

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. AFFC Brienne VIII

Brienne seems more aware of what’s happening around her.  Jon registers pain as acutely as she does.  We know the word Brienne screams is sword—a direct agreement to ensnare Jamie into whatever trap Lady Stoneheart has prepared.  Jon whispers “Ghost”, his closest friend.  Jon seems to have a bit of a life review in his thoughts about “stick them with the pointy end” and perhaps the mention of Ghost.  Brienne seems much more aware of Pod’s lack of reaction than her own.  They are both sort of separated from themselves.  We don’t know where stabs 2 and 4 landed, but if they hit an artery, Jon would bleed out in as little as 15 minutes.   Complete death by hanging can take up to 20 minutes.  With so little information I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider both Jon and Brienne have died.  In that there are 2 possible ways for anyone to be reanimated, it’s not at all ridiculous to expect that Jamie may suffer at least 1 death.  What good is a Grave Digger if no one dies?  We know that ice preserves in the case of Maester Aemon’s longevity at the Wall.  We know that fire consumes as seen in the oft resurrected Beric  Dondarion who loses memories and vitality. 

All 3 of these characters have undergone profound transformations.  Jamie is working hard to keep his vows and recover his honor.  Jon distances himself from his friends and brothers at the Wall for myriad reasons.  Brienne is becoming crafty and recognizing her love for Pod.  Death in these settings is almost required for complete transformation.   Jamie is fond of recalling there are so many vows.  These noble characters are coming to terms with all of their vows.   If Beric Dondarion is anything to measure by, we should be able to anticipate their individual missions after reanimation.   Jamie may understand justice and fight for a cause.  Brienne should be fierce and loyal but much smarter.  Jon could walk away from his vows that limit his unitarian efforts or enter the crypts in his dreams.   Many ways reanimation could go for all 3 of them.  

This is just speculation.   I have no real insight into any of these characters or their situations.   This is simply one way I imagine the cliffhangers in ADWD could work out.  Golden Boy and Lady Ser are not the only significant characters in the Riverlands with skulls dancing about their heads.   We’ve got that Grave Digger and the Blackfish.  But the far North is all Jon’s.  I don’t know that Melisandre has any power to restore life but base these thoughts on her being a Red Priestess, magic increasing and Thoros’ own admissions he never expected the kiss of life to work.   Do these conflicted characters have to die to complete their transformations?  Is there some planning in these 3 experiencing life after death?  How do you see it possibly shaking out?

I am pretty sure that Bowens knife is the 2nd knife, because the first knife cuts Jon only, then Jon reaches for his sword but his fingers fumble.  So we don't know the location of the 4th knife, but I am pretty sure you and I have discussed before how the 3rd knife should've killed him.  There's nothing between the shoulder blades other than heart, lungs, spine, and very small muscles holding the shoulder blade in place.

As for Brienne though, I don't see why she would've died, or any clues to suggest it.  We know she actually spoke as we know she said sword, so she was a long way away from actually dying of asphyxiation.  They would have had to intentionally kill her even after she offered them exactly what they wanted.  Then there's the problem of reviving her.  Thoros tells Beric that to revive him again would kill him, and we can only assume the same would happen to Lady Stoneheart that happened to Thoros, meaning she would die if she did it.  It seems like a situation where we cannot prove she is alive but also have no reason to believe she is not.