When the Dead Come Knocking

Curled Finger · January 19, 2018

8 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I am pretty sure that Bowens knife is the 2nd knife, because the first knife cuts Jon only, then Jon reaches for his sword but his fingers fumble. So we don't know the location of the 4th knife, but I am pretty sure you and I have discussed before how the 3rd knife should've killed him. There's nothing between the shoulder blades other than heart, lungs, spine, and very small muscles holding the shoulder blade in place.

As for Brienne though, I don't see why she would've died, or any clues to suggest it. We know she actually spoke as we know she said sword, so she was a long way away from actually dying of asphyxiation. They would have had to intentionally kill her even after she offered them exactly what they wanted. Then there's the problem of reviving her. Thoros tells Beric that to revive him again would kill him, and we can only assume the same would happen to Lady Stoneheart that happened to Thoros, meaning she would die if she did it. It seems like a situation where we cannot prove she is alive but also have no reason to believe she is not.

Welcome, arya. Always enjoy your input. Forgive me for the spider webs. I don't recall the conversation regarding knife wounds, but the location of a knife between the shoulders and the organs in that path sure ring a bell. I was reviewing @Richard Hoffman's fascinating topic, For The Watch last night. It's a long one and I only got 3 pages in, but it's bursting with interesting stuff thus far. I thank you for bringing this point in the OP up. Allow me to recap to be sure I'm on the same track you are...#1 knife is the glancing blow to the neck that Jon deflects sort of. #2 is Bowen's stab to the gut that is left in place. #3 knife is in the upper back between the shoulder blades and the 4th is still unknown. Right?

Let me assume this is correct so that I can move on to the rest of your post. I trust you will straighten me out if this in error.

It takes a very short time to read the paragraphs regarding Jon's injuries. However, because of Jon's reactions it's safe to assume this encounter took at least a couple of minutes with so many people involved. It could have taken as much as 4 minutes as I actually attempt to reenact Jon's motions. It's very interesting that Jon isn't aware of any other sound except the words said to him, "for the watch". No screaming or yelling; no one attempting to interfere, yet he notices Marsh's tears, thinks of "stick them with the pointy end", "Ghost" and the cold. He has enough time to reach for his sword and notes the state of his hand.

I googled the times offered for dying by stab wounds and hanging. Of course I was then sent immediately to a suicide prevention page in the next search. If Google persists in this sort of logic we won't ever get results for injuries sustained in ASOIAF!

I focus on time here not to argue with your opinions. Time seems to be inaccurately represented in 3 short paragraphs. It possible Jon's multiple stabbing and Brienne's hanging took longer than my assumptions, but I doubt either encounter was long enough to accomplish what Google with it's millions of references tells us it takes to completely die. However, my assumptions would not be the 1st time I've been wrong by a long shot. All I can offer is neither encounter was a bullet to the brain.

All that stated so awkwardly, I think it took longer for both characters' thoughts to register than it took to read them. We don't know how Brienne, Hyle and Pod were arranged for hanging. Because Brienne is aware of Hyle's cursing then Pod's straits I think it's possible she was either hanged 2nd or they were arranged so that Brienne could at least hear Hyle and see Pod. She's close enough to note that Pod doesn't open his eyes--a curious catch in my estimation. I doubt anyone would be able to turn their head or speak while being hanged. I just can't see how that would be physically possible. I'm really thinking Pod was hanged 1st, then Brienne then Hyle (if he was even actually hanged). I would be really interested your thoughts on the arrangement of events Brienne's little paragraph.

As to revival, everything you state is true. I have to go with my gut as far as that goes and refer back to Thoros' dissatisfaction with LSH's BWB. Would he be willing to give his life for Brienne? I don't know. We aren't certain why Beric gave his life for Cat. All I can offer is there is much more to this scene than we are told and I'm of a mind that it is time passing. For all it's worth.

Lady Dacey · January 19, 2018

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though maybe I'm confusing it with other media, and if in books Brienne didn't met with Arya, she met with Sansa, and can tell to LSH about that encounter.

Brienne has been searching for Sansa but hasn't found her yet. She's never met any of the Stark girls.

Julia H. · January 19, 2018

On 2018. 01. 17. at 4:08 AM, Curled Finger said:

Last we saw Jon Snow he knew only the cold. He fell and bled all over everything.   He may or may not have survived the For the Watch knife attack. Maybe one day we will know. Last we saw Brienne she was luring Jamie away to meet The Hound who has The Girl. Again, perhaps some day we will know what transpires with this, too.   Jon is at what Melisandre calls a hinge of the world—he’s in the closest proximity to the Others, making him stuck in a deeply ice magical place with a fire magical priestess. Though there are weirwoods and weirwood groves and hollow hills in the Riverlands, there is not direct magical connection to ice magic at the Trident or Pennytree, but there is that curious Lady Stonehart—a good ”sort of living” example of fire magic. Not to mention Thoros, another powerful fire magic worker.

Much is made of our author’s slow progress and impossible depth of story.   That is nonsense. Both of these plots are beautifully set up to go to the next level. Fire or ice they are dangerously close to death if not already dead in the cases of Jon and Brienne.   There is light at the end of AFFC and ADWD, it just takes imagination to see it.   Jon suffers at the hands of his sworn brothers of the Nights Watch:

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …ADWD Jon VIII

Brienne was hanged (for you, @Nittanian) along with Pod and Hyle Hunt. Lady Stoneheart, a “sort of person” Brienne was sworn to, gives the command to hang her. We see through Brienne’s eyes:

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. AFFC Brienne VIII

Brienne seems more aware of what’s happening around her. Jon registers pain as acutely as she does. We know the word Brienne screams is sword—a direct agreement to ensnare Jamie into whatever trap Lady Stoneheart has prepared. Jon whispers “Ghost”, his closest friend. Jon seems to have a bit of a life review in his thoughts about “stick them with the pointy end” and perhaps the mention of Ghost. Brienne seems much more aware of Pod’s lack of reaction than her own. They are both sort of separated from themselves. We don’t know where stabs 2 and 4 landed, but if they hit an artery, Jon would bleed out in as little as 15 minutes.   Complete death by hanging can take up to 20 minutes. With so little information I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider both Jon and Brienne have died. In that there are 2 possible ways for anyone to be reanimated, it’s not at all ridiculous to expect that Jamie may suffer at least 1 death. What good is a Grave Digger if no one dies? We know that ice preserves in the case of Maester Aemon’s longevity at the Wall. We know that fire consumes as seen in the oft resurrected Beric Dondarion who loses memories and vitality.

All 3 of these characters have undergone profound transformations. Jamie is working hard to keep his vows and recover his honor. Jon distances himself from his friends and brothers at the Wall for myriad reasons. Brienne is becoming crafty and recognizing her love for Pod. Death in these settings is almost required for complete transformation.   Jamie is fond of recalling there are so many vows. These noble characters are coming to terms with all of their vows.   If Beric Dondarion is anything to measure by, we should be able to anticipate their individual missions after reanimation.   Jamie may understand justice and fight for a cause. Brienne should be fierce and loyal but much smarter. Jon could walk away from his vows that limit his unitarian efforts or enter the crypts in his dreams.   Many ways reanimation could go for all 3 of them.

This is just speculation.   I have no real insight into any of these characters or their situations.   This is simply one way I imagine the cliffhangers in ADWD could work out. Golden Boy and Lady Ser are not the only significant characters in the Riverlands with skulls dancing about their heads.   We’ve got that Grave Digger and the Blackfish. But the far North is all Jon’s. I don’t know that Melisandre has any power to restore life but base these thoughts on her being a Red Priestess, magic increasing and Thoros’ own admissions he never expected the kiss of life to work. Do these conflicted characters have to die to complete their transformations? Is there some planning in these 3 experiencing life after death? How do you see it possibly shaking out?

Great OP, very thought provoking, and a fascinating discussion.

I have never thought of it before that Brienne may actually have died and been resurrected. I still don't find the idea too likely in the literal sense. A symbolic death though ... That, I find much more convincing. I love @Seams's take on this question, especially the idea that Podric is the "mini version" of the King's Justice. After all, the BwB was founded by the men who had been sent to the Riverlands by Ned Stark to carry out the King's Justice. Now here is a small, innocent version of the "King's Justice" and they are about to kill him; and Brienne, who currently has half of Ned Stark's sword, has to shout "Sword!" to save him. Does she, in fact, invoke Justice in that moment?

I also adore the "Just Ice" pun. Brienne with her "Just Maid" associations has ended up with one half of Ice the Just. (The other half went to Joffrey, and Joffrey got killed on that very day. He had named the sword "Widow's Wail", and his wife became his widow as soon as she became his wife, but I don't think she cried her eyes out for him.) Oathkeeper is with Brienne, and here she is faced with a dilemma of oathkeeping versus saving the innocent, the very dilemma Jaime had faced. Perhaps Brienne's symbolic death will - somehow - allow her to be reborn as a real "Just Maid" as opposed to "Lady Vengeance".

As for Jaime, he is apparently in grave mortal danger. Still, if he dies in the hands of the BwB, I don't see any reason why they would resurrect him. Thoros himself doesn't fully understand how this magic works, so he would probably be careful about such an experiment, and I think Lady Stoneheart would want Jaime to die and stay dead - unless she has something even worse for him in her mind, but I don't know if she can be subtle enough for that. I also agree with @Lucius Lovejoy that Jaime's symbolic death has already happened with the loss of his hand, and I'm not sure resurrection by R'hllor could add anything to his character development. The characters resurrected so far didn't have a story arc to complete. Beric had been a minor character, whose main significance is his "after life" story; while, in my view, Catelyn Stark's story arc was completed (she had nothing more left to live for), and Lady Stoneheart is basically a new character (who wouldn't have been born if Catelyn hadn't died and who has some of Catelyn's feelings and at least some of her memories). Jaime is on a redemption path, IMO, therefore I don't see the point for him to change so abruptly and radically or to be replaced by what is essentially a different character. My guess is, if Jaime dies, he will stay dead, but he will probably be around for a while yet, because his arc is not complete.

Now Jon. I have no idea about the nature of his wounds or what realistically can or cannot happen with those wounds. However, GRRM left the situation ambiguous enough. My suspicion in Jon's case is very similar to @Faera's idea:

On 2018. 01. 18. at 10:56 AM, Faera said:

When it comes to Jon, I see it like a situation with Bran. He was unconscious for weeks, perhaps Jon's body will still be alive despite the blood loss but they just can't wake him. Thing is that if Jon's body died, I can't see them not burning him. Not just because they fight fear he'll turn but as a kindness. Those still loyal to Jon (which is actually most of the people at the Wall) would do him that mercy asap if he died. For that reason, I don't think Jon does fully. His body will be alive but the trauma of his attack will drive him into Ghost and he won't want to come out. The second life is sweeter and Jon might be happy in Ghost... until perhaps Bran reminds him that he has to save those left behind. I am very interested to see if the Three-Eyed-Crow drops in on him at one point. There is this sort of unspoken rule or generally accepted theory that near-death experience or life-threatening illness are what prompts the flying dream - those who do not fight turn their lives are impaled on the spikes of many dreamers, while those who choose to keep living will fly. Jon will fly like Bran did, if the Crow visits him. However, I do think that Bran might be the one to help "call Jon back" from the point of death. People expect the answer to lie in the Red God, but I think Jon's strange connection with Bran will pay off big time. I have actually been conducting a close-read of Jon and Bran and the little weird connections and coincidences in their stories is so interesting.

I think for Jon to die and stay dead at this point in his story would be rather strange and unsatisfactory. As for resurrection, I think Faera's reservations are absolutely valid. I can also add that in his case, too, the kind of change that Catelyn had undergone through fire resurrection would essentially mean that the original character is out and a new one is in, and I don't see the point in that. There is ice and there is fire, but resurrection by ice magic (wights) doesn't seem to be any better than by fire (speaking of character development here, not about what would make the character happy).

We have seen it in the book that Dany, the ultimate fire character, went into the fire and survived and was at the same time "reborn" as "the mother of dragons". We don't know what exactly happened behind the flames, we don't know whether Dany died for a moment at least or was alive from beginning to end, but her character was enriched and empowered by the experience rather than deprived (and it happened in a critical moment, when she had apparently lost everything she had had), and, unlike Beric and Lady Stoneheart, she apparently remained fully alive and essentially herself. Now Jon, the ultimate ice character, is dying on ice, feeling only the cold, in a moment when everything seems to be lost. I think he can survive the cold death, as Dany survived the fiery one, although the mechanism would probably be different. While Dany discovered and contacted her true dragon self in the fire, perhaps Jon, in the cold, could find his true warg self or wolf self, and his personality would become more complex and - due to his newly discovered skills - more powerful, probably also rather bitter; but in essence he would remain himself.

Jon's death being symbolic (like Dany's) makes sense to me. He may need to take a trip to the Underworld (as "Ghost") but without truly belonging there (cf. his dream about the Winterfell crypts, where the dead Starks do not welcome him as one belonging there - the same dead Starks, who "feast" with Theon in another dream). Such a journey could result in important changes (development) in his character (an Underworld journey often provides the hero with a new "weapon") but would allow Jon to keep his humanity intact and to still have the feelings and limitations of a human being.

Springwatch · January 19, 2018

On 17/01/2018 at 9:18 PM, Seams said:

All men must die. That is your answer.

I'm not sure whether literal deaths are imminent for Jon, Jaime and Brienne, or whether I would use the word "reanimation" in connection with their rebirths, however. "Rebirth" seems to be the word that applies.

We know that the author uses symbolic rebirths and deaths throughout the novels: Dany burns on Drogo's funeral pyre, loses all of her hair, but is miraculously still alive - or is reborn - with her newly-hatched dragons. Cersei loses all of her hair as she is forced on her walk of shame from the Sept to the Red Keep but she is "reborn" (describes herself feeling like the baby Joffrey) in the arms of Ser Robert Strong. (Ser Robert Strong is another good example of a death and rebirth.) Like a good Tully, Catelyn is reborn as Lady Stoneheart when she emerges from the river that flows around her birthplace. The miller's boys die and Bran and Rickon soon emerge from the crypt. Arya is reborn a bunch of times as Arry, Weasel, Nan, Salty, Blind Beth, etc. Sansa is reborn as Alayne. I could go on, but we all get the point: some rebirths are fairly clearly preceded by pretty literal death (Dany, Stoneheart, Ser Robert Strong) and some are much more in the symbolic realm (Sansa, Arya, etc.)

Agree! I've been reading Davos after the Blackwater, and he remembers drowning, but wakes up on a sea rock, next to a drowned corpse, a broken mast and a burned sail. That dead body represents his past life so perfectly, it feels like he's a snake who's shed his skin (btw, it's and up-and-down scene too: he doesn't escape the grip of death until he climbs to the top of his rock spire and signals a ship). He has changed - he goes out like a hero to kill the monster Mel; old Davos would not have done that.

And then it happens again, with Manderly - a look-alike body appears to represent the death of Davos, and Davos himself lives on, but the course of his life has changed once more.

Quote

The other element I highlighted in your excerpts is the presence of Podrick Payne in Brienne's scene. I suspect one of Pod's symbolic functions is as the junior representative of House Payne. The only other known member of that House is Ser Ilyn Payne, who is the executioner. In his official role, Ser Ilyn is also known as The King's Justice. So we have big Justice traveling with Jaime and mini-Justice traveling with Brienne. (Split into two, like the sword Ice.) One of my old flights of symbolic and wordplay fancy is that the sword Ice was originally supposed to be called Just-ice. Ser Ilyn was the last person known to have used the sword Ice. Also, there is a long-running pun in the books around Ice / eyes.

This is an idea I am very enthusiastic about - I'm writing a post for the Podrick Payne thread highlighting the similarities between Ilyn and Pod - the speech defect, the skin blemishes, the sword across the back, the chainmail - not big things in themselves, but the parallels build up. And I think the piebald horse is also a link, and a link to death besides (in a complicated kind of way).

Seems to me that Death and Justice have been corruptly merged in both Ice and Ilyn Payne, and Pod, the new Justice, is being overshadowed by Death also. If Pod dies, I can't see where the hope for justice remains in the story - certainly justice would be dead for Brienne, at least.

aryagonnakill#2 · January 20, 2018

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome, arya. Always enjoy your input. Forgive me for the spider webs. I don't recall the conversation regarding knife wounds, but the location of a knife between the shoulders and the organs in that path sure ring a bell. I was reviewing @Richard Hoffman's fascinating topic, For The Watch last night. It's a long one and I only got 3 pages in, but it's bursting with interesting stuff thus far. I thank you for bringing this point in the OP up. Allow me to recap to be sure I'm on the same track you are...#1 knife is the glancing blow to the neck that Jon deflects sort of. #2 is Bowen's stab to the gut that is left in place. #3 knife is in the upper back between the shoulder blades and the 4th is still unknown. Right?

Let me assume this is correct so that I can move on to the rest of your post. I trust you will straighten me out if this in error.

It takes a very short time to read the paragraphs regarding Jon's injuries. However, because of Jon's reactions it's safe to assume this encounter took at least a couple of minutes with so many people involved. It could have taken as much as 4 minutes as I actually attempt to reenact Jon's motions. It's very interesting that Jon isn't aware of any other sound except the words said to him, "for the watch". No screaming or yelling; no one attempting to interfere, yet he notices Marsh's tears, thinks of "stick them with the pointy end", "Ghost" and the cold. He has enough time to reach for his sword and notes the state of his hand.

I googled the times offered for dying by stab wounds and hanging. Of course I was then sent immediately to a suicide prevention page in the next search. If Google persists in this sort of logic we won't ever get results for injuries sustained in ASOIAF!

I focus on time here not to argue with your opinions. Time seems to be inaccurately represented in 3 short paragraphs. It possible Jon's multiple stabbing and Brienne's hanging took longer than my assumptions, but I doubt either encounter was long enough to accomplish what Google with it's millions of references tells us it takes to completely die. However, my assumptions would not be the 1st time I've been wrong by a long shot. All I can offer is neither encounter was a bullet to the brain.

All that stated so awkwardly, I think it took longer for both characters' thoughts to register than it took to read them. We don't know how Brienne, Hyle and Pod were arranged for hanging. Because Brienne is aware of Hyle's cursing then Pod's straits I think it's possible she was either hanged 2nd or they were arranged so that Brienne could at least hear Hyle and see Pod. She's close enough to note that Pod doesn't open his eyes--a curious catch in my estimation. I doubt anyone would be able to turn their head or speak while being hanged. I just can't see how that would be physically possible. I'm really thinking Pod was hanged 1st, then Brienne then Hyle (if he was even actually hanged). I would be really interested your thoughts on the arrangement of events Brienne's little paragraph.

As to revival, everything you state is true. I have to go with my gut as far as that goes and refer back to Thoros' dissatisfaction with LSH's BWB. Would he be willing to give his life for Brienne? I don't know. We aren't certain why Beric gave his life for Cat. All I can offer is there is much more to this scene than we are told and I'm of a mind that it is time passing. For all it's worth.

Yes to the issue of the blades, that is what I believe was meant at any rate.

To be honest I have not really considered the angle that more time is passing, I feel like I need to read the full chapter of each and will try to do that this weekend if I can. The one thing that springs to mind on the spot is that if Jons scene took more than a few seconds the wildlings and others should have jumped in, I would think, but of course if we are not getting everything than maybe that did happen and we just don't know.

Curled Finger · January 20, 2018

7 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Great OP, very thought provoking, and a fascinating discussion.

I have never thought of it before that Brienne may actually have died and been resurrected. I still don't find the idea too likely in the literal sense. A symbolic death though ... That, I find much more convincing. I love @Seams's take on this question, especially the idea that Podric is the "mini version" of the King's Justice. After all, the BwB was founded by the men who had been sent to the Riverlands by Ned Stark to carry out the King's Justice. Now here is a small, innocent version of the "King's Justice" and they are about to kill him; and Brienne, who currently has half of Ned Stark's sword, has to shout "Sword!" to save him. Does she, in fact, invoke Justice in that moment?

I also adore the "Just Ice" pun. Brienne with her "Just Maid" associations has ended up with one half of Ice the Just. (The other half went to Joffrey, and Joffrey got killed on that very day. He had named the sword "Widow's Wail", and his wife became his widow as soon as she became his wife, but I don't think she cried her eyes out for him.) Oathkeeper is with Brienne, and here she is faced with a dilemma of oathkeeping versus saving the innocent, the very dilemma Jaime had faced. Perhaps Brienne's symbolic death will - somehow - allow her to be reborn as a real "Just Maid" as opposed to "Lady Vengeance".

As for Jaime, he is apparently in grave mortal danger. Still, if he dies in the hands of the BwB, I don't see any reason why they would resurrect him. Thoros himself doesn't fully understand how this magic works, so he would probably be careful about such an experiment, and I think Lady Stoneheart would want Jaime to die and stay dead - unless she has something even worse for him in her mind, but I don't know if she can be subtle enough for that. I also agree with @Lucius Lovejoy that Jaime's symbolic death has already happened with the loss of his hand, and I'm not sure resurrection by R'hllor could add anything to his character development. The characters resurrected so far didn't have a story arc to complete. Beric had been a minor character, whose main significance is his "after life" story; while, in my view, Catelyn Stark's story arc was completed (she had nothing more left to live for), and Lady Stoneheart is basically a new character (who wouldn't have been born if Catelyn hadn't died and who has some of Catelyn's feelings and at least some of her memories). Jaime is on a redemption path, IMO, therefore I don't see the point for him to change so abruptly and radically or to be replaced by what is essentially a different character. My guess is, if Jaime dies, he will stay dead, but he will probably be around for a while yet, because his arc is not complete.

Now Jon. I have no idea about the nature of his wounds or what realistically can or cannot happen with those wounds. However, GRRM left the situation ambiguous enough. My suspicion in Jon's case is very similar to @Faera's idea:

I think for Jon to die and stay dead at this point in his story would be rather strange and unsatisfactory. As for resurrection, I think Faera's reservations are absolutely valid. I can also add that in his case, too, the kind of change that Catelyn had undergone through fire resurrection would essentially mean that the original character is out and a new one is in, and I don't see the point in that. There is ice and there is fire, but resurrection by ice magic (wights) doesn't seem to be any better than by fire (speaking of character development here, not about what would make the character happy).

We have seen it in the book that Dany, the ultimate fire character, went into the fire and survived and was at the same time "reborn" as "the mother of dragons". We don't know what exactly happened behind the flames, we don't know whether Dany died for a moment at least or was alive from beginning to end, but her character was enriched and empowered by the experience rather than deprived (and it happened in a critical moment, when she had apparently lost everything she had had), and, unlike Beric and Lady Stoneheart, she apparently remained fully alive and essentially herself. Now Jon, the ultimate ice character, is dying on ice, feeling only the cold, in a moment when everything seems to be lost. I think he can survive the cold death, as Dany survived the fiery one, although the mechanism would probably be different. While Dany discovered and contacted her true dragon self in the fire, perhaps Jon, in the cold, could find his true warg self or wolf self, and his personality would become more complex and - due to his newly discovered skills - more powerful, probably also rather bitter; but in essence he would remain himself.

Jon's death being symbolic (like Dany's) makes sense to me. He may need to take a trip to the Underworld (as "Ghost") but without truly belonging there (cf. his dream about the Winterfell crypts, where the dead Starks do not welcome him as one belonging there - the same dead Starks, who "feast" with Theon in another dream). Such a journey could result in important changes (development) in his character (an Underworld journey often provides the hero with a new "weapon") but would allow Jon to keep his humanity intact and to still have the feelings and limitations of a human being.

Hi Julia H. and welcome to the discussion. This bunch here is nothing if not thought provoking but I do appreciate your kind words. Wait until you see them all get started on Harrenhal again! Our friend and symbolism person @Seams is on fire with the connections she's making with nearly everything. She's thinking about armor that may or may not contain memories of the previous wearer (Nod to @LynnS there, sorry) borrowed and found. She's made amazing connections with graves and rebirth, which is really the hook for me when talking about Brienne, Jamie and Jon possibly dying. And it well could be ALL symbolism for all 3 of them, though I do hedge my bets with Jamie a bit. Still, we just dedicated nearly 24 pages to a close study of our Lady of Tarth and Golden Hand and their adventures, past and predicted. Jon demands to be included in this discussion because we really don't know what state he's in. Is it more like Bran or Beric?

I really enjoyed your thoughts and invite you to join us for the duration.

Curled Finger · January 20, 2018

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Agree! I've been reading Davos after the Blackwater, and he remembers drowning, but wakes up on a sea rock, next to a drowned corpse, a broken mast and a burned sail. That dead body represents his past life so perfectly, it feels like he's a snake who's shed his skin (btw, it's and up-and-down scene too: he doesn't escape the grip of death until he climbs to the top of his rock spire and signals a ship). He has changed - he goes out like a hero to kill the monster Mel; old Davos would not have done that.

And then it happens again, with Manderly - a look-alike body appears to represent the death of Davos, and Davos himself lives on, but the course of his life has changed once more.

This is an idea I am very enthusiastic about - I'm writing a post for the Podrick Payne thread highlighting the similarities between Ilyn and Pod - the speech defect, the skin blemishes, the sword across the back, the chainmail - not big things in themselves, but the parallels build up. And I think the piebald horse is also a link, and a link to death besides (in a complicated kind of way).

Seems to me that Death and Justice have been corruptly merged in both Ice and Ilyn Payne, and Pod, the new Justice, is being overshadowed by Death also. If Pod dies, I can't see where the hope for justice remains in the story - certainly justice would be dead for Brienne, at least.

Thanks Springwatch. I believe, but cannot verify because if I do I will lose my place and that's always bad, but I believe you can find @Seams original topic about Just Ice (I think that was the name of the topic) in her signatures. If not, just look for Just Ice to see where that journey began. This is not a new thing and she's dedicated a great deal of thought and research to it. It's been my pleasure to watch the thoughts spin and connect and grow. All well worth reading if you haven't yet.

Curled Finger · January 20, 2018

28 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes to the issue of the blades, that is what I believe was meant at any rate.

To be honest I have not really considered the angle that more time is passing, I feel like I need to read the full chapter of each and will try to do that this weekend if I can. The one thing that springs to mind on the spot is that if Jons scene took more than a few seconds the wildlings and others should have jumped in, I would think, but of course if we are not getting everything than maybe that did happen and we just don't know.

Perhaps I do remember the discussion! As to time, this is a thing that barely occurred to me as I read your post this morning. I personally want to go back and watch the episode so I can time 4 of those stabs. I'm not trying to influence your thinking in any way. Your thoughts are clear and comprehensible which makes them very valuable to me. However, if you think there may be a little something to time here by all means have a good read and let me know if you think there may be something credible to this assumption.

Seams · January 20, 2018

On 1/18/2018 at 9:02 PM, Curled Finger said:

You know Seams, you fascinate me. I read well on half of this post thinking the direwolf Lady? Lyanna's statue? I bet you didn't even try to trick me there. Now that I understand it is Sansa's direwolf, Lady, I am so close to understanding. Your thoughts regarding Brienne's rebirth are astounding. I understand we are talking graves here. Still I have to ask if/what the items left in the hanging dead or unburied dead mean? I believe we have salt in the scattered bodies at Saltpans and apples in the mouths of some hanging Lannisters? I get the literal deal here, homages to pigs and guest right (what else could salt be?), but you have me thinking about the offerings made to the dead, even in mockery.

I've still got to think about Brienne's connection to Ned, which I honestly never gave much thought to. As always, each time you are able to tie some part of a topic in with a topic of your own, the premise becomes clearer.

Have you ever made a study of the death Brienne both comes across and causes in the story thus far? Certainly death is a major theme in any knight's life, but those she comes across are especially nasty as seen through her eyes.

No, I wasn't trying to trick anyone. But it's good that you remind me of the parallel between the (literal) direwolf, Lady, and the "wolf maid," Lyanna. We know that Cersei wanted Lady's pelt laid across her bed - and wishes that Rhaegar and/or Robert had loved her the way he (apparently) loved Lyanna. Brienne has things in common with Lyanna, especially if Lyanna is (or if GRRM wants us to suspect she is) the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

I like the idea of expanding the examination of graves to look at other places bodies are found - hung from trees, left out in the open, burned in a pyre. Dolorous Edd has some odd examples - dropped from a great height or drowned in a barrel of wine (with Edd drinking some of the wine afterward anyway). Maester Aemond is pickled in a barrel. Illyrio keeps the severed hands of Serra. Your apples and salt examples are excellent.

Brienne does make a point of wanting to take down bodies from the trees, as a way of respecting people who are victims of violence. Her examples of showing respect for the dead seem outnumber by the examples of people desecrating dead bodies. On the other hand, is dismembering always an act of desecration?

After the clash at Crackclaw Point, Ser Hyle cuts the heads off of Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg and carries them all the way back to Maidenpool, to show Randall Tarly that the outlaws are dead and so their heads can be displayed on spikes. (Btw, does it make Ser Hyle a dragon, if he has three heads?) Brienne thinks the post-mortem beheadings are terrible and carrying the decaying heads such a long distance is revolting. (Of course, Shagwell had played around with severed heads after the Weasel Soup incident at Harrenhal, months earlier.) In most cultures, dismembering a dead body is taboo, so the reader tends to share Brienne's distaste for Hyle's actions. If you examine the beheadings from the perspective of Ser Clarence Crabb, however, taking heads from dead guys is a way of preserving them and drawing on their wisdom. King Cleon and Ser Robert Strong are similarly honored or given useful roles after their deaths. The Others seem to value the contributions of dead people as fresh recruits for their army.

It would be interesting to examine the ways ASOIAF characters treat dead people and what message GRRM wants us to take from these after-death experiences.

6 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Great OP, very thought provoking, and a fascinating discussion.

I have never thought of it before that Brienne may actually have died and been resurrected. I still don't find the idea too likely in the literal sense. A symbolic death though ... That, I find much more convincing. I love @Seams's take on this question, especially the idea that Podric is the "mini version" of the King's Justice. After all, the BwB was founded by the men who had been sent to the Riverlands by Ned Stark to carry out the King's Justice. Now here is a small, innocent version of the "King's Justice" and they are about to kill him; and Brienne, who currently has half of Ned Stark's sword, has to shout "Sword!" to save him. Does she, in fact, invoke Justice in that moment?

I also adore the "Just Ice" pun. Brienne with her "Just Maid" associations has ended up with one half of Ice the Just. (The other half went to Joffrey, and Joffrey got killed on that very day. He had named the sword "Widow's Wail", and his wife became his widow as soon as she became his wife, but I don't think she cried her eyes out for him.) Oathkeeper is with Brienne, and here she is faced with a dilemma of oathkeeping versus saving the innocent, the very dilemma Jaime had faced. Perhaps Brienne's symbolic death will - somehow - allow her to be reborn as a real "Just Maid" as opposed to "Lady Vengeance".

Thanks. Always nice to discover that I'm on the same wavelength with someone of your insight and wisdom about the books, Julia H.

When I recognized this connection between Brienne and Ned, I immediately wondered about a "Just-Ice" and "Just Maid" connection, too. Brienne's sword was just made by Tobho Mott, so maybe GRRM is offering us more wordplay here.

I very much like your idea that Brienne could be the personification of Just Maid, and then contrasting Just Maid and Lady Vengeance (presumably Stoneheart). As I have worked my way through a Brienne re-read of AFfC, what I think I'm seeing is GRRM offering an alternative path for someone to become a True Knight. Like other key characters who engage in battle or participate in jousting (The Hound, Tyrion, possibly Ser Duncan the Tall) Brienne has never been knighted and probably never will be. But she seems to be symbolically knighted by the hedge knights Ser Creighton and Ser Illyfer, and her quest continues to expose her to guides and mentors who teach her about honesty and kindness and honor (or the lack thereof). Building on your idea, my guess is that she might BE Ser Galladon of Morne as well as the Maiden and the sword Just Maid - all at the same time.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Agree! I've been reading Davos after the Blackwater, and he remembers drowning, but wakes up on a sea rock, next to a drowned corpse, a broken mast and a burned sail. That dead body represents his past life so perfectly, it feels like he's a snake who's shed his skin (btw, it's and up-and-down scene too: he doesn't escape the grip of death until he climbs to the top of his rock spire and signals a ship). He has changed - he goes out like a hero to kill the monster Mel; old Davos would not have done that.

And then it happens again, with Manderly - a look-alike body appears to represent the death of Davos, and Davos himself lives on, but the course of his life has changed once more.

This is an idea I am very enthusiastic about - I'm writing a post for the Podrick Payne thread highlighting the similarities between Ilyn and Pod - the speech defect, the skin blemishes, the sword across the back, the chainmail - not big things in themselves, but the parallels build up. And I think the piebald horse is also a link, and a link to death besides (in a complicated kind of way).

Seems to me that Death and Justice have been corruptly merged in both Ice and Ilyn Payne, and Pod, the new Justice, is being overshadowed by Death also. If Pod dies, I can't see where the hope for justice remains in the story - certainly justice would be dead for Brienne, at least.

I love Davos. Can't get enough of that guy.

There may be an important clue to Davos and his rebirth in his onion symbolism, too. Like a body removed from a grave, a root vegetable grows and sort of comes to life while it is buried. Then it is removed from its "grave" in order to be put to death - eaten by someone. Seems to fit with GRRM's inversion of the usual birth-death sequence, with death preceding rebirth. In this case, though, maybe it's not so much about rebirth: for an onion, being buried is life and being above ground is death.

I'll have to take a look at your Podrick Payne post! Sounds interesting.

I agree that the piebald horse is a significant hint. I think it links to Septon Meribald as well, but I'm not sure how (other than some anagram possibilities). Pies and hair and horses are all rich symbols, so a piebald horse has to mean something.

As I examine Pod and Ser Illyn as representatives of Justice, I also keep in mind the wordplay possibilities for the surname Payne: a pane of glass could have an important role (the glass house at Winterfell seems like an important symbol), the pain of a wound or of childbirth seems like a reasonable match, and the French word for bread is also pain. So there are a lot of interesting symbolic possibilities for these characters.

Curled Finger · January 20, 2018

40 minutes ago, Seams said:

No, I wasn't trying to trick anyone. But it's good that you remind me of the parallel between the (literal) direwolf, Lady, and the "wolf maid," Lyanna. We know that Cersei wanted Lady's pelt laid across her bed - and wishes that Rhaegar and/or Robert had loved her the way he (apparently) loved Lyanna. Brienne has things in common with Lyanna, especially if Lyanna is (or if GRRM wants us to suspect she is) the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

I like the idea of expanding the examination of graves to look at other places bodies are found - hung from trees, left out in the open, burned in a pyre. Dolorous Edd has some odd examples - dropped from a great height or drowned in a barrel of wine (with Edd drinking some of the wine afterward anyway). Maester Aemond is pickled in a barrel. Illyrio keeps the severed hands of Serra. Your apples and salt examples are excellent.

Brienne does make a point of wanting to take down bodies from the trees, as a way of respecting people who are victims of violence. Her examples of showing respect for the dead seem outnumber by the examples of people desecrating dead bodies. On the other hand, is dismembering always an act of desecration?

After the clash at Crackclaw Point, Ser Hyle cuts the heads off of Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg and carries them all the way back to Maidenpool, to show Randall Tarly that the outlaws are dead and so their heads can be displayed on spikes. (Btw, does it make Ser Hyle a dragon, if he has three heads?) Brienne thinks the post-mortem beheadings are terrible and carrying the decaying heads such a long distance is revolting. (Of course, Shagwell had played around with severed heads after the Weasel Soup incident at Harrenhal, months earlier.) In most cultures, dismembering a dead body is taboo, so the reader tends to share Brienne's distaste for Hyle's actions. If you examine the beheadings from the perspective of Ser Clarence Crabb, however, taking heads from dead guys is a way of preserving them and drawing on their wisdom. King Cleon and Ser Robert Strong are similarly honored or given useful roles after their deaths. The Others seem to value the contributions of dead people as fresh recruits for their army.

It would be interesting to examine the ways ASOIAF characters treat dead people and what message GRRM wants us to take from these after-death experiences.

Building on your idea, my guess is that she might BE Ser Galladon of Morne as well as the Maiden and the sword Just Maid - all at the same time.

Ah Seams, I know you didn't try to trick me, but it sure made me laugh when I figured it out. So maybe Lyanna could be a precursor to a real Lady Knight? Brienne embodies all the things that make a knight. Perhaps she has a trio of cads to scold, too! That GRRM has got some of the most ingenious ways to kill people. I'm rereading AGOT and taking notes this time. I'm paying attention to deaths though I've only got as far as Jon Arryn, Chiggen and Ser Vardis Egan but the Mountain Clans are just meeting up with Tyrion a 2nd time and offering to feed his manhood to the goats. Good times.

You know, now that you bring it up, I wonder what the deeper meaning of Hyle's 3 heads is? A dragon indeed!

I just loved the last bit about Brienne becoming Ser Galladon, The Maiden and Just Maid. Just beautiful and so powerful, Seams.

BTW, I directed @Springwatchto read your excellent 1st topic on Just Ice. That was the name of the topic, Just Ice?

Springwatch · January 20, 2018

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks Springwatch. I believe, but cannot verify because if I do I will lose my place and that's always bad, but I believe you can find @Seams original topic about Just Ice (I think that was the name of the topic) in her signatures. If not, just look for Just Ice to see where that journey began. This is not a new thing and she's dedicated a great deal of thought and research to it. It's been my pleasure to watch the thoughts spin and connect and grow. All well worth reading if you haven't yet.

Thanks, @Curled Finger. It's another great topic! I'll do some reading about the swords.

About death/near death being essential for a re-birth - I think this is true; but Jaquen's rules apply, and the gods of death will accept a proxy: 'The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places.' (We're reminded of proxies again with Tommen's whipping boy.)

Bran and Rickon should have died in the sack of Winterfell; but they live on, and the miller's boys take their place.

I'm tempted to include Doreah as a representative of Dany's early compliant, sex-kitten self. Doreah died in the face of the harsh realities of the Red Waste.

There could be many more, but dead minor characters slip under my radar so easily!

This opens up a big possibility for Jaime. Hyle Hunt, like Jaime, was initially dismissive and cruel to Brienne, but later grew to like her. Hyle even wants to marry her. Given that Hyle is close to death, and Jaime approaching a crossroads in his life, it seems very much like another proxy death is on the cards - Jaime will survive and switch paths.

Which leaves Pod. Who is a look-alike to Ilyn, and at risk of death just as much as Hyle is. Will he die to allow Ilyn to change paths? It's a difficult thought for me, because I want Pod to be Justice re-born, but there could be another way. Maybe Ilyn will arrive and see the injustice that has been done to Pod, and his spirit will revive in righteous anger.

Of course, Brienne can't be coerced by LSH unless at least one of her companions is still alive, so it's one or the other. No question, they're still in mortal danger though.

Faera · January 20, 2018

18 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I also agree with @Lucius Lovejoy that Jaime's symbolic death has already happened with the loss of his hand, and I'm not sure resurrection by R'hllor could add anything to his character development. The characters resurrected so far didn't have a story arc to complete. Beric had been a minor character, whose main significance is his "after life" story; while, in my view, Catelyn Stark's story arc was completed (she had nothing more left to live for), and Lady Stoneheart is basically a new character (who wouldn't have been born if Catelyn hadn't died and who has some of Catelyn's feelings and at least some of her memories). Jaime is on a redemption path, IMO, therefore I don't see the point for him to change so abruptly and radically or to be replaced by what is essentially a different character. My guess is, if Jaime dies, he will stay dead, but he will probably be around for a while yet, because his arc is not complete.

One might also link Jaime's dream in the weirwood stump of his father and sister-lover turning their backs on him, leaving him in the bowls below Casterly Rock, which feels very much a placeholder for being buried alive or the crypts of Winterfell, marked the moment when his mindset truly started to change. The light in his world went out but was replaced with light from Brienne and her sword. Then, finally, once he released Tyrion and had to confess his "one kindness" he is loved for was all a lie, the emptiness of his excuses - the same he offers to the shades of the Kingsguard and Rhaegar - seems to make him realise that he can change. Almost like a Scrooge character, he gets visited by "ghosts" in order to see himself. Yet, his transformation is not utterly complete -- he could be Goldenhand but he also needs to break away from the corruption of the throne completely. His encounter with Lady Stoneheart might help that as it forces him to truly confront a personification of all the evil that was done by House Lannister, and that Jaime is still standing up for. If you reap what you sow then Lady Stoneheart is the crop. Like you, I do not see her as Cat but a rotted corpse where all that was left was the pain, anguish, hate and madness that consumed Cat in her last moments alive. We cannot forget -- Cat lost her mind. She literally had a psychotic breakdown and it was almost fear of that which led to the Freys killing her rather than trying to take her hostage. Then several days later, after being dragged from a river that had corroded her body, that tortured soul was dragged back from the otherside. Think what a torment Bet is thought it was that Thoros kept bringing him back -- now think of the torment Cat's soul is in. It is damaged and fractured. So, the long and short of it is... Jaime might well be instrumental in helping her let go. I don't think he'll kill her (I'd prefer it is Jaime never used his remaining hand to take another life) but he will bring justice - hopefully with Brienne's help.

But yes, I believe that if Jaime physically died he will stay dead. The "get out of jail" clause for characters like Bran, Jon, and the other remaining Starks is their ability to skinchange animals. This means the corruption of their souls can be slowed, as it is suggested it takes time before the soul of the beast and man become mixed. Bottom line: Jaime does not have such an escape route any more than Catelyn or Beric did, meaning such a resurrection would run the risk of a slowly rotting soul again.

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Now Jon. I have no idea about the nature of his wounds or what realistically can or cannot happen with those wounds. However, GRRM left the situation ambiguous enough. My suspicion in Jon's case is very similar to @Faera's idea:

On 18/01/2018 at 9:56 AM, Faera said:

When it comes to Jon, I see it like a situation with Bran. He was unconscious for weeks, perhaps Jon's body will still be alive despite the blood loss but they just can't wake him. Thing is that if Jon's body died, I can't see them not burning him. Not just because they fight fear he'll turn but as a kindness. Those still loyal to Jon (which is actually most of the people at the Wall) would do him that mercy asap if he died. For that reason, I don't think Jon does fully. His body will be alive but the trauma of his attack will drive him into Ghost and he won't want to come out. The second life is sweeter and Jon might be happy in Ghost... until perhaps Bran reminds him that he has to save those left behind. I am very interested to see if the Three-Eyed-Crow drops in on him at one point. There is this sort of unspoken rule or generally accepted theory that near-death experience or life-threatening illness are what prompts the flying dream - those who do not fight turn their lives are impaled on the spikes of many dreamers, while those who choose to keep living will fly. Jon will fly like Bran did, if the Crow visits him. However, I do think that Bran might be the one to help "call Jon back" from the point of death. People expect the answer to lie in the Red God, but I think Jon's strange connection with Bran will pay off big time. I have actually been conducting a close-read of Jon and Bran and the little weird connections and coincidences in their stories is so interesting.

I think for Jon to die and stay dead at this point in his story would be rather strange and unsatisfactory. As for resurrection, I think Faera's reservations are absolutely valid. I can also add that in his case, too, the kind of change that Catelyn had undergone through fire resurrection would essentially mean that the original character is out and a new one is in, and I don't see the point in that. There is ice and there is fire, but resurrection by ice magic (wights) doesn't seem to be any better than by fire (speaking of character development here, not about what would make the character happy).

We have seen it in the book that Dany, the ultimate fire character, went into the fire and survived and was at the same time "reborn" as "the mother of dragons". We don't know what exactly happened behind the flames, we don't know whether Dany died for a moment at least or was alive from beginning to end, but her character was enriched and empowered by the experience rather than deprived (and it happened in a critical moment, when she had apparently lost everything she had had), and, unlike Beric and Lady Stoneheart, she apparently remained fully alive and essentially herself. Now Jon, the ultimate ice character, is dying on ice, feeling only the cold, in a moment when everything seems to be lost. I think he can survive the cold death, as Dany survived the fiery one, although the mechanism would probably be different. While Dany discovered and contacted her true dragon self in the fire, perhaps Jon, in the cold, could find his true warg self or wolf self, and his personality would become more complex and - due to his newly discovered skills - more powerful, probably also rather bitter; but in essence he would remain himself.

Jon's death being symbolic (like Dany's) makes sense to me. He may need to take a trip to the Underworld (as "Ghost") but without truly belonging there (cf. his dream about the Winterfell crypts, where the dead Starks do not welcome him as one belonging there - the same dead Starks, who "feast" with Theon in another dream). Such a journey could result in important changes (development) in his character (an Underworld journey often provides the hero with a new "weapon") but would allow Jon to keep his humanity intact and to still have the feelings and limitations of a human being.

A lot of my thoughts about Jon came from GRRM's own ambiguity when questioned on the death as well how he never states that Jon does inn the book. The "oh, you think he's dead" aspect of it took me to the Bran situation more than "yet another Red God resurrection". Everyone seems to think that Melisandre's whole purpose being at the Wall is to bring Jon back -- but I can't see why she would. For kicks? It would be interesting if she tried but simply can't because either she does not have Thoros's gift or Jon cannot be reached because he is inside Ghost and won't come out. I found myself remembering Bran's description of slipping into Summer's skin after he took a wound:

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Bran had reached out for Summer time and time again, but the pain he found drove him back, the way a red-hot kettle makes you pull your hand back even when you mean to grab it.

Perhaps the reverse is true, too. If those loyal to Jon - Leathers, Wun Wun, Val, Satin, Alys and so on - take Jon and stabilise his body then in theory, he could be kept alive (barely) but unconscious. Bran was kept alive after his fall and then when he stayed in Summer for days on end in the crypt by being fed honey and squeezing water into his mouth. If people actively try to save Jon, which most would as Bowen Marsh's actions were idiotic regardless of his reasons, he might lie unconscious for a while, allowing us to see his "adventures" in Ghost. Perhaps he does try to return to his body but the pain drives him back into Ghost. So, Jon remains in limbo. The longer he stays, the less he wants to return to a world of pain and strife. This could be how Bran reached out to him again. Jon and Bran are already connected inn a deep, magical level. Bran could have reached out to any of his siblings yet it was Jon his powers were drawn to. I suspect it is because Jon, after Bran, has the most potential as a skinchanger and perhaps even a greenseer. Yet we need to remember that Jon spoke to Bran while inside Ghost. Thus, we know Bran can reach Ghost in order to get to Jon.

This to me is still a resurrection - Jon goes to the verge of death and yet is called back by his brother, who helps him overcome his pain and grasp life again. Or fly, as the case may be.

Mel presumed that the man with the wooden face and the boy with a wolf's face howling were the vassels of the Great Other, yet she is not be best reader of visions. When she asks to see Azor Ahai, all she sees is "Snow". She also sees Jon turn from man, to wolf, to man again. Thus, it perhaps is another hint to Mel that these supposed enemies of hers are far from it -- terrifying as they may seem, they are needed in the future. Plus, that while thing about Bran having a wolf's head plays into my personal theory that when Jon as Ghost saw "his brother's face" in the weirwood, he was actually seeing Bran as Summer - giving Bran a literal wolf's head.

Faera · January 20, 2018

On 19/01/2018 at 0:50 AM, Curled Finger said:

Ah Faera so very well said, Lady! I've seen mention of both Bran and the 3EC having a hand in Jon's recovery, but I've never seen it explained. That Bran can speak to Jon in dreams is already evidence of the subconscious connection between them. The conclusions you've drawn for an ice rebirth aren't far fetched in the least. That Jon is gravely injured instead of dead gives entirely new meaning to Jon's rebirth. This is much more satisfying than Melisandre being responsible for whatever becomes of Jon. You've taken my thoughts on ice reanimation to a whole new level with the obvious. The mind or desperation, urgency or love can pull a warg from where he sleeps.

On a phone again... so fiddly!

Well, as I said in my response to @Julia H. above, the connection between Bran and Jon is so compelling to me because when you consider all the Starks are reported to be wargs, it is interesting that of all the siblings he could have invaded the dreams of - Robb, Sansa, Arya etc - it is Jon, the furthest away, that his consciousness reaches. That Bran also “touched” Jon through Ghost, or rather, spoke to Jon while he was inside Ghost also sets the president that Bran can communicate with Jon/Ghost without disrupting their connection. This might even give Bran the opportunity to show Jon why he needs to wake up or rejoin his body. That in a sense is a type rebirth as Jon would be abandoning his second life to return to the bloody and damaged body of the first, a body that might have died but for the intervention of those who think Jon’s continuation is worth protecting — all those wildlings and their leaders, a fair chunk of the Night’s Watch, Alys etc. Jon might awake having had his third eye truly opened by Bran. He will go back enlightened... at least, I hope he will!

(I remember reading a while back a theory that Bran might actually gain the ability to skinchange Jon himself- not sure about that one but just imagine it!)

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You've made a very good argument for severe physical trauma opening a person to some deeper life meaning. Brienne is a true knight for all the obvious reasons, chivalry, valor, justice--all excellent reasons. All she lacks is that subtle love of humanity in all its guises. It became clear to us that Brienne was forming a closeness with Pod, not precisely maternal but not precisely not, either. She is opening herself to the love of others not within her home and history. I think it is during her hanging she begins to see this clearly. Through her blooming love she will learn all she needs to be the True Knight for Pod, Hyle, Jamie, perhaps even what is left of Catelyn, but I think it may be mostly for herself. I look forward to an embrace that doesn't make her uncomfortable.

Brienne’s journey is an interesting one because it is so heavily tied both to her representing the ideal image of what a knight should be yet being treated as “a freak” because she is so counter to the ideal for a woman. Compare her to other women and girls who are less conventional -- Arya, Meera, the Sand Snakes — I would still consider all of them to be distinctly feminine. Even Obara, who is the closest to a "Brienne" character, chose her father's spear over a "woman's weapon" of tears yet did not necessarily choose a male role of "Knight", just a traditionally masculine weapon. The other Sand Snakes are more like "femme fatals" - deadly women who use women's weapons of poison and concealed daggers. You can throw Arya in that category, too. Finally, someone like Meera seems to have grown up without the notion of skills with arms as a necessarily masculine role -- there is no indication that Howland training her to fight was "odd", indicating that being a huntress is not unusual at all in the crannogs. Same again with Arya -- faceless men are male or female, as genderless as the Stranger.

In fact, I would say these other women are completely counter to the overly masculine nature of knighthood and knights: Meera sees knights as the "baddies" who try to take her home but end up dead in the bottom of the quagmires, and the Sand Snakes are all different aspects of Oberyn - a father who embodied a great skill as a warrior and intellectual yet was no conventional knight. As for Arya... well, her experience of knights comes from Gregor Clegane. Enough said. Even Sandor would have reinforced that notion of the ugliness of knighthood through his own disgust at it.

Brienne, thus, is almost too good to be true. She is living up to an ideal that does not exist. She has even on the long rambling journey trying to find Sansa - which we the readers know is a waste of time - leads her back to LS. Suddenly, all that honour of sticking to her word through thick and thin — being told to go home to her father, return the sword to Jaime and see her father, even getting proposed to by Hyle Hunt (who I genuinely think likes and admires her for herself despite his primary goal originally being winning a bet and marrying an heiress) — only to discover that the woman she was sworn to is now back and no longer capable of mercy. Brienne might have given up there and then... had it not been for little Pod.

Oh, Pod! I love that little guy. I have seen some suggesting that he’s some sort of Littlefinger agent or Cersei agent but no. I think what you see is what you get with Pod. This is a kid with massive abandonment issues, passing from one master to another. His loyalty to Tyrion is adorable— the fact he essentially begged Bronn for three days to go and see Tyrion told me this wasn’t a kid who wanted to do right by his master who he feels was teaching him. Then, he follows Brienne in the hopes of finding Tyrion if they find Sansa. One of the more heartbreaking moments for me was when he seemed genuinely hurt at being left by Tyrion. Pod’s later discomfort at sleeping separate from Brienne feeds again into his fear of abandonment. I agree their relationship isn’t strictly “maternal” but it is as close as — like Brienne has gained a little brother almost.

Bottom line: people believe in Brienne and I am curious to see if she is able to keep her pure view of what is “right” after this encounter with the Stoneheart.

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Faera, please keep us posted of the life/death connections you discover between Jon and Bran. That was a wonderful post!

Honestly, I’m wondering if I will ever be able to make it coherent!

Bullrout · January 20, 2018

On 1/16/2018 at 10:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

Last we saw Jon Snow he knew only the cold. He fell and bled all over everything.   He may or may not have survived the For the Watch knife attack. Maybe one day we will know. Last we saw Brienne she was luring Jamie away to meet The Hound who has The Girl. Again, perhaps some day we will know what transpires with this, too.   Jon is at what Melisandre calls a hinge of the world—he’s in the closest proximity to the Others, making him stuck in a deeply ice magical place with a fire magical priestess. Though there are weirwoods and weirwood groves and hollow hills in the Riverlands, there is not direct magical connection to ice magic at the Trident or Pennytree, but there is that curious Lady Stonehart—a good ”sort of living” example of fire magic. Not to mention Thoros, another powerful fire magic worker.

Much is made of our author’s slow progress and impossible depth of story.   That is nonsense. Both of these plots are beautifully set up to go to the next level. Fire or ice they are dangerously close to death if not already dead in the cases of Jon and Brienne.   There is light at the end of AFFC and ADWD, it just takes imagination to see it.   Jon suffers at the hands of his sworn brothers of the Nights Watch:

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …ADWD Jon VIII

Brienne was hanged (for you, @Nittanian) along with Pod and Hyle Hunt. Lady Stoneheart, a “sort of person” Brienne was sworn to, gives the command to hang her. We see through Brienne’s eyes:

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth opened. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.

She screamed a word. AFFC Brienne VIII

Brienne seems more aware of what’s happening around her. Jon registers pain as acutely as she does. We know the word Brienne screams is sword—a direct agreement to ensnare Jamie into whatever trap Lady Stoneheart has prepared. Jon whispers “Ghost”, his closest friend. Jon seems to have a bit of a life review in his thoughts about “stick them with the pointy end” and perhaps the mention of Ghost. Brienne seems much more aware of Pod’s lack of reaction than her own. They are both sort of separated from themselves. We don’t know where stabs 2 and 4 landed, but if they hit an artery, Jon would bleed out in as little as 15 minutes.   Complete death by hanging can take up to 20 minutes. With so little information I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider both Jon and Brienne have died. In that there are 2 possible ways for anyone to be reanimated, it’s not at all ridiculous to expect that Jamie may suffer at least 1 death. What good is a Grave Digger if no one dies? We know that ice preserves in the case of Maester Aemon’s longevity at the Wall. We know that fire consumes as seen in the oft resurrected Beric Dondarion who loses memories and vitality.

All 3 of these characters have undergone profound transformations. Jamie is working hard to keep his vows and recover his honor. Jon distances himself from his friends and brothers at the Wall for myriad reasons. Brienne is becoming crafty and recognizing her love for Pod. Death in these settings is almost required for complete transformation.   Jamie is fond of recalling there are so many vows. These noble characters are coming to terms with all of their vows.   If Beric Dondarion is anything to measure by, we should be able to anticipate their individual missions after reanimation.   Jamie may understand justice and fight for a cause. Brienne should be fierce and loyal but much smarter. Jon could walk away from his vows that limit his unitarian efforts or enter the crypts in his dreams.   Many ways reanimation could go for all 3 of them.

This is just speculation.   I have no real insight into any of these characters or their situations.   This is simply one way I imagine the cliffhangers in ADWD could work out. Golden Boy and Lady Ser are not the only significant characters in the Riverlands with skulls dancing about their heads.   We’ve got that Grave Digger and the Blackfish. But the far North is all Jon’s. I don’t know that Melisandre has any power to restore life but base these thoughts on her being a Red Priestess, magic increasing and Thoros’ own admissions he never expected the kiss of life to work. Do these conflicted characters have to die to complete their transformations? Is there some planning in these 3 experiencing life after death? How do you see it possibly shaking out?

People are who they are. Maturation tempers emotions. Experience improves judgment. In the end though, people don't really change. Opinions may change when confronted with more information. The person itself doesn't change. Jaime lost his hand so he can't afford to have the same arrogance. Give him back his hand and he reverts back to his arrogance. Jaime doesn't have much of a moral compass. He thinks he has one now but let's see what happens when he is asked to sacrifice someone that actually means a great deal to him. Brienne is still the same person. Her opinion of Jaime changed because she was confronted with more information but it did not change her as a person. I fail to see a transformation here. Brienne is not of the deep thinking type and she governs herself based on what she thinks honor demands. Her opinion of honor may change but she is a person who will remain guided by principles. Jon is not going to change. He's a very emotional man who is in love with Arya. Maybe his love for Arya will survive in him when he comes back as an ice wight. He gets a transformation alright but not what you're thinking. He comes back as a wight with feelings for his little sister still. He's an emo wight who will fight for the dead. A wight who shows sensitivity and sheds a frozen tear while turning his victims into zombies to serve the great other. A spark of feelings for the Starks will remain in his frozen heart as he marches to Winterfell with the army of the dead.

Lady Dacey · January 20, 2018

On 18/01/2018 at 10:57 PM, Curled Finger said:

What say you, Lady? I take it you don't believe Brienne actually died at the end of Stoneheart's rope? Do you think Jamie will?

In my headcanon all three of them are literally alive, while facing different manners of symbolic death.

Let's go one by one... starting with Jaime.

While Jon and Brienne are going through near-death (or truly deadly) situations, I believe Jaime is "safer" - he's had his symbolic death already (the unhanding, as @Lucius Lovejoy pointed out) and he has chosen to live, not without the invaluable help of the Moonmaid Brienne:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime IV

Jaime lay on his back afterward, staring at the night sky, trying not to feel the pain that snaked up his right arm every time he moved it. The night was strangely beautiful. The moon was a graceful crescent, and it seemed as though he had never seen so many stars. The King's Crown was at the zenith, and he could see the Stallion rearing, and there the Swan. The Moonmaid, shy as ever, was half-hidden behind a pine tree. How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me?

"Jaime," Brienne whispered, so faintlyhe thought he was dreaming it. "Jaime, what are you doing?"

"Dying," he whispered back.

"No," she said, "no, you must live."

He wanted to laugh. "Stop telling mewhat do, wench. I'll die if it pleases me."

"Are you so craven?"

The word shocked him. He was Jaime Lannister, a knight of the Kingsguard, he was the Kingslayer. No man had ever called him craven. Other things they called him, yes; oathbreaker, liar, murderer. They said he was cruel, treacherous, reckless. But never craven. "What else can I do, but die?"

"Live," she said, "live, and fight, and take revenge." But she spoke too loudly. Rorge heard her voice, if not her words, and came over to kick her, shouting at her to hold her bloody tongue if she wanted to keep it.

That was a turning point to Jaime, I believe. I see that Jaime is now in the place to return the favour to the maid of Tarth. We know from Kevin Jaime has been missing a while, but I believe he has either a) been kept a captive/sent on a mission by the BwB or b ) found a way to beguile them and scape together with Brienne. Where they're heading I can't begin to decipher, but I don't believe they're parting ways again, or that either of them has died. Which leads us to Brienne.

Brienne's arc through AFFC was one of misdirections and wrongways. While she got more and more lost in her search for Sansa, she also went deeper inside herself reflecting own how her experiences have made her guarded and untrusting. She's looking for "a maid of three-and-ten" she dubs her sister, and I believe she is also searching in her thoughts for the young maid she never was, but wishes she had been:

Quote

I could slink back to King's Landing, confess my failure to Ser Jaime, give him back his sword, and find a ship to carry me home to Tarth, as the Elder Brother urged. The thought was a bitter one, yet there was part of her that yearned for Evenfall and her father, and another part that wondered if Jaime would comfort her should she weep upon his shoulder. That was what men wanted, wasn't it? Soft helpless women that they needed to protect?

She ultimatly rejects being helpless though - when she sees helpless Pod dying without lifting eyes. That's when she makes her choice to live - even if it means breaking her vows. She's meeting Jaime though, and I hope he can remind her honor isn't necessarily lost when you break a vow. I also hope he can prove himself worthy of her trust, and of course give her more reasons to enjoy living (I'm a sucker for romance).

I'm aligned with @Faera in thinking Jon will experience a dive into his consciousness like Bran did, a comatose experience that will last a while. I really don't like the idea of a fire-reanimated Jon - like @Julia H. I think Catelyn's story arc ended with her death, and I don't want to see a new character emerge from Jon like LSH emerged from Catelyn. I don't think GRRM has finished writing Jon's story, there is a lot of development to take place still, so Melissandre bringing him back from the dead doesn't make sense to me. People have proposed Val/Morna as possible witches to work an Old Gods related ressurection spell on Jon - I think this could work better in his arc, but I remain unconvinced.

LynnS · January 20, 2018

4 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

People have proposed Val/Morna as possible witches to work an Old Gods related ressurection spell on Jon - I think this could work better in his arc, but I remain unconvinced.

I actually think Bran will have the ability to bring Jon back from the dead.

As the drowned god, he may bring Jon back to life as a green man, not unlike Coldhands. Especially, since we have Coldhands telling Bran that he is Bran's monster. The weirwood at Whitetree receives burnt offerings, it's mouth is blackened and full of ashes. This brings Beric to mind who only remembers the taste of ash in his mouth and the GoHH who tells Thoros that his god has no power on her hill. And yet Thoros brings Beric back to life in the cave amidst the roots of a weirwood.

Megorova · January 20, 2018

On 19.01.2018 at 3:51 PM, Curled Finger said:

I doubt anyone would be able to turn their head or speak while being hanged.

As to revival, everything you state is true. I have to go with my gut as far as that goes and refer back to Thoros' dissatisfaction with LSH's BWB. Would he be willing to give his life for Brienne?

It could be that she was hanged, but they took off the rope, prior Brienne actually died.

For example in a book of Alexander Dumas, Three Musketeers, one of musketeers (Athos) hanged his wife on a tree in a wood, and left her there to die. A bit later, Cardinal Richelieu and his people were passing nearby, and found her hanged. They took her off, and she was still alive. Later she changed her name to Lady Winter or Milady, and became one of main villains of the story.

While hanged, a person can die in one of two ways - either immediately because the neck broke, or slowly thru suffocation.

So it's likely that they stopped execution, and Brienne was hanging not long enough to completely suffocate. So there was no need to administer kiss of life. She was hanged, but didn't died. They released her, before she could have died from suffocation.

Lady Dacey · January 20, 2018

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I actually think Bran will have the ability to bring Jon back from the dead.

Hi there LynnS! I believe Bran may play a role as well. I personally don't lke theories that merge different religions together. While I see parallels can be made (and in real life I actually have faith that all "spiritual power" comes from the same source that is only interpreted differently in each culture) I don't see the author is planning on merging different systems of belief.

Faera's proposition make a lot of sense to me:

2 hours ago, Faera said:

If those loyal to Jon - Leathers, Wun Wun, Val, Satin, Alys and so on - take Jon and stabilise his body then in theory, he could be kept alive (barely) but unconscious. Bran was kept alive after his fall and then when he stayed in Summer for days on end in the crypt by being fed honey and squeezing water into his mouth. If people actively try to save Jon, which most would as Bowen Marsh's actions were idiotic regardless of his reasons, he might lie unconscious for a while, allowing us to see his "adventures" in Ghost. Perhaps he does try to return to his body but the pain drives him back into Ghost. So, Jon remains in limbo. The longer he stays, the less he wants to return to a world of pain and strife. This could be how Bran reached out to him again. Jon and Bran are already connected inn a deep, magical level. Bran could have reached out to any of his siblings yet it was Jon his powers were drawn to.

I too, find it important that GRRM has chosen to keep Jon's destiny ambiguous after the attack. It reads like when Bran narrates his fall, or when we see Yoren bring a knife to Arya's neck at the end of her last chapter in AGOT. Martin has also chosen not to reveal if Jon really died when asked abou it in interviews. He has set precedents.

LynnS · January 20, 2018

20 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Hi there LynnS! I believe Bran may play a role as well. I personally don't lke theories that merge different religions together. While I see parallels can be made (and in real life I actually have faith that all "spiritual power" comes from the same source that is only interpreted differently in each culture) I don't see the author is planning on merging different systems of belief.

I don't think it's a question of merging different systems of beliefs. With the exception of the drowned god; who's rituals are a confused version of the greenseers of the old gods. I do think it's possible that a greenseer has the ability to bring Beric back to life through the agency of Thoros. The burned mouth of the Whitetree weirwood certainly suggests that it has fire in it's mouth on occassion.

As for Dany, she has undergone a transformation by spiritual fire when she wakes the singing dragon. She calls it a cleansing something that the followers of Red Rahloo seem to imitate but without the same effect.

I'm guessing that underneath the glamors that Mel and Moqorro employ is a burned and twisted thing. Something the Dusky Woman can see when she first meets Moqorro.

Edit: I compare the three headed god Trios to Whitetree+Black Gate+Thoros. One head consumes, the third head disgorges and nobody knows what the middle head does.

Julia H. · January 20, 2018

3 hours ago, Faera said:

One might also link Jaime's dream in the weirwood stump of his father and sister-lover turning their backs on him, leaving him in the bowls below Casterly Rock, which feels very much a placeholder for being buried alive or the crypts of Winterfell, marked the moment when his mindset truly started to change. The light in his world went out but was replaced with light from Brienne and her sword.

It is even possible that Jaime is actually under Winterfell in that dream. He thinks he is in the Rock, and he sees Lannisters there, but as he goes downstairs, he suddenly feels it is an unfamiliar place:

There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

The Lannisters tell him it's "your place", it's "your darkness", and leave him alone. Brienne appears and she asks him:

"A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

Deep in his subconscious, Jaime seems to know the answer:

"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom."

Jaime rules out bears and lions (the latter is strange if the place is Casterly Rock), but he doesn't rule out direwolves. Direwolves are doom. But where do we find direwolves deep in the dark, in a watery place? The Winterfell crypts come to mind, which suggests that Jaime is deep under Winterfell. The Starks may be his doom: Eddard Stark judged him, Robb defeated and captured him, Catelyn sent him on a mission that cost him his sword hand, and who knows what Lady Stoneheart is going to do to him?

Also, when Jaime sees a rider approaching, he immediately thinks it is Eddard Stark's ghost (but it turns out to be Rhaegar's).

Since it's a dream, the place can even be both the Rock and Winterfell. What is more, the water may also suggest Riverlands territory and Catelyn Stark.

Perhaps the single most fascinating discovery I read about on these forums is the discovery that Jaime's weirwood dream, one of Jon's crypt dreams (ASOS) and Theon's dream about feasting with the dead are different parts of the same dream. It was @Ragnorak who wrote the post where I originally read this idea. I don't know if this post can be found now or not.

Anyway, this is really an instance where the dead come knocking. Jaime's "sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in". (What is this if not a symbolic death?) In another chapter of the same book, Jon dreams about the Winterfell crypts. Towards the end of his dream, the crypts are going darker, and then:

A light has gone out somewhere.

Could it be the light of Jaime's sword? Jon also hears the sounds of a feast.

Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place.

The feasting actually happens in Theon's dream, when he sleeps in Eddard Stark's weirwood bed. He dreams of being at a feast where everyone else is dead: King Robert, Eddard Stark, Lyanna Stark and also people whose death is on Theon's hand...

Jon is looking for his father in the crypts, but his father isn't there. Of course, his father - Rhaegar - is with Jaime in Jaime's part of the dream, reminding Jaime of his children. At first, Jaime mistakes Rhaegar for Eddard Stark (interesting, isn't it?). Jon's other father, Eddard Stark, shows up in Theon's part of the dream.

A lot of things about the three dreams match like the pieces of a puzzle. The dreams strongly hint at an Underworld journey for both Jon and Jaime, who is accompanied by Brienne. (I'm not so sure about Theon, as his dream takes place in the Great Hall of Winterfell, where the dead come to visit, instead of Theon visiting them, but Theon also dies symbolically.) All three dreams feature direwolves (though in Jaime's dream they are only mentioned), and all of them are associated with Old Gods magic (weirwood stump, weirwood bed, the Wall and its surroundings). The light of Jaime's sword goes out but Brienne's sword is still on fire. (Does that means she will save him? Or just survive him?) Jon doesn't belong to the dead Starks or in the crypt, he is a stranger in the Underworld.

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