When the Dead Come Knocking

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Bran going through the Black Gate is a passage into slavery to the weirwoods?  I've read your post thrice now.   I understand the words but don't comprehend the meaning.  I assume this is the sum of past, present and future knowledge of Bran's story?  Or is it more interpretive?  Is his association with the weirwoods a bad thing?  

Well, for one, the other greenseer in the cavern, Brynden Rivers, is basically a shackled dragon in a pit, implying a relationship not born entirely of free will.  I also think the phallic roots penetrating his body, particularly his upper 'thigh' and 'burrowing through his breeches' is unsettlingly like rape.  If he's submitting himself voluntarily to the weirwoods in exchange for power, then it's a kind of prostitution. Suggesting that the weirwoods are not exclusively benign, the meaning of 'weir' or 'garth' is a fish trap -- and Bran is a Tully. The 'woven nest of roots' is not only a throne -- it's a cage (like the one in which they burned Mance):

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

I've interpreted the tear that 'brands' Bran (like a passport stamp at the magical border-crossing of the Black Gate!) to be evocative of the tattoo beneath the eye of the slaves, particularly the pleasure slaves of Volantis.  Joining the trees is described as a wedding into which Bran feels coerced, introducing a sexual element, and an unsavory one at that, into the metaphor of skinchanging and greenseeing, which is basically a theme throughout the novels (consider Varamyr's assault on Thistle when he 'forces himself into her skin' against her will).  

Additionally, Bran has moments when he doubts those in the cavern have his best interests at heart, moments in which it's as if he has a premonition that he'd better 'get the hell out of there' or it's not going to end well for him, for example here:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Old Nan had told him the same story once, Bran remembered, but when he asked Robb if it was true, his brother laughed and asked him if he believed in grumkins too. He wished Robb were with them now. I'd tell him I could fly, but he wouldn't believe, so I'd have to show him. I bet that he could learn to fly too, him and Arya and Sansa, even baby Rickon and Jon Snow. We could all be ravens and live in Maester Luwin's rookery.

That was just another silly dream, though. Some days Bran wondered if all of this wasn't just some dream. Maybe he had fallen asleep out in the snows and dreamed himself a safe, warm place. You have to wake, he would tell himself, you have to wake right now, or you'll go dreaming into death. 

But he's crippled -- so how should he leave, even if he wanted to get away?  He's essentially imprisoned.

Have you ever asked yourself why the Children need human greenseers to run/fuel the weirnet?  I don't know the answer, but it's puzzling.

Quote

Are you saying that all these gods, Drowned, Old and R'hllor are perhaps the same entities?  That's a mind blower, but remember I just put Patchface together.   I can see it--it's so close.  Am I anywhere near grasping your meaning here? 

Yes, the Drowned and the Old are the same.  I'm not sure how R'hllor fits into it, especially given that fire is an integral part of the weirnet.  Consider for example how Bran uses 'fire-reading' in order to access the heart tree at Winterfell from the remote location of Bloodraven's cavern:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It happens.  I made the same mistake with the reason for our not knowing the words of House Dayne.  

If I had a magic sword alive with light; I'd be yelling "Let the Wicked Tremble!"

[Curled Finger]

54 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Well, for one, the other greenseer in the cavern, Brynden Rivers, is basically a shackled dragon in a pit, implying a relationship not born entirely of free will.  I also think the phallic roots penetrating his body, particularly his upper 'thigh' and 'burrowing through his breeches' is unsettlingly like rape.  If he's submitting himself voluntarily to the weirwoods in exchange for power, then it's a kind of prostitution. Suggesting that the weirwoods are not exclusively benign, the meaning of 'weir' or 'garth' is a fish trap -- and Bran is a Tully. The 'woven nest of roots' is not only a throne -- it's a cage (like the one in which they burned Mance):

I've interpreted the tear that 'brands' Bran (like a passport stamp at the magical border-crossing of the Black Gate!) to be evocative of the tattoo beneath the eye of the slaves, particularly the pleasure slaves of Volantis.  Joining the trees is described as a wedding into which Bran feels coerced, introducing a sexual element, and an unsavory one at that, into the metaphor of skinchanging and greenseeing, which is basically a theme throughout the novels (consider Varamyr's assault on Thistle when he 'forces himself into her skin' against her will).  

Additionally, Bran has moments when he doubts those in the cavern have his best interests at heart, moments in which it's as if he has a premonition that he'd better 'get the hell out of there' or it's not going to end well for him, for example here:

But he's crippled -- so how should he leave, even if he wanted to get away?  He's essentially imprisoned.

Have you ever asked yourself why the Children need human greenseers to run/fuel the weirnet?  I don't know the answer, but it's puzzling.

Yes, the Drowned and the Old are the same.  I'm not sure how R'hllor fits into it, especially given that fire is an integral part of the weirnet.  Consider for example how Bran uses 'fire-reading' in order to access the heart tree at Winterfell from the remote location of Bloodraven's cavern:

 

Oh my.   Amazing how far off I was.  I can't tell you how much I appreciate you explaining this.   I've never thought of people feeding the weirwood so much as the weirwood as a big file cabinet of all the memories of time.   I totally get where you're coming from now and hope to be able to get a lot more out of the conversation.  Who knows?  Perhaps we are both right and I just need to get a whole lot better at symbolism.  I would never have (and never did!) established the connections of the visuals you've picked up on.  Comparing Bran's water drop to the tear tattoos is so easy to follow once you understand.   Maybe the most impressive explanation of rape to skin changing I've ever read.   Now I get why some folks are so upset at Bran's inha

Hrm, we've got to figure out how R'hllor ties into or opposes this Drowned God/Old Gods deal.  That was great, Lady.   Thanks so much for joining us here.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

If I had a magic sword alive with light; I'd be yelling "Let the Wicked Tremble!"

Oh I do believe, Lady! 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jaime is the only one of those three who changed for the better.  I don't think Brienne changed at all.  Jon changed for the worse and betrayed his vows over a sister.

Hi Quoth. Thanks for reading through my post and responding to it. The conversation here on this thread has been most interesting and I'm sure different opinions are always welcome. I believe we must recognized that very one of those statements you made are acutally debatable. Those aren't facts - 'Jaime is the only who changed for the better', 'Jon changed for the worse', and even if he 'betrayed his vows' are subject to the interpretation of readers, and I think it would be nice if you could ground your views for us. Why do you believe Jon changed for the worse? What has driven him to change? Those would be valuable additions to our current conversation. 

3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The only thing death does is make the person rot.

Oh, I believe it's well established that in Planetos there are other options besides rotting!

3 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

If anything, death makes the person worse when and if they come back.

I agree with you. But how would after-life impact on the characters we are discussing? 

[Lady Dacey]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

That's a good catch.  I presume you're referring to the warm salty tear which falls on Bran as he makes the border crossing, marking his cheek in the vein of the slaves of Volantis.  Bran is undergoing initiation as a slave to the weirwood once he steps across the 'under the sea' boundary represented by the Black Gate. Reflecting this sacrificial aspect with brothel undertones, 'Bran did not want to be married to a tree...'  In other words, symbolically Bran is being 'whored out' to the trees.  He not Jon is the latest 'blue rose of Winterfell' stolen away by some singer(s)!  Significantly, on the day of his departure from Winterfell, the glass panes of the glass gardens, known to house the blue winter rose, are noted to be smashed, as if something precious may have been stolen from within.

The whores are found around the sailors or sea men (semen..?!)

Whores go 'to the sea' -- in Bran's case, this is to the 'see' (i.e. 'weirnet').

A priest being tied to a ship's wooden prow, in order to harness the elements Ironborn-style, is analogous to a greenseer being tied to a weirwood -- basically hanged like Odin or crucified like Christ (cf. Bloodraven pinioned and riddled through by the roots).  It's a sacrificial rite constituting the barter of a life for power and a measure of immortality; thus, the ominous injunction to Sam in that moment, who is forced to swear 'upon the life you owe me' (this is Monster's life) to 'ensure Bran stays dead' thrice. Consolidating the 'whore/brothel' symbolism, the exchange of one life for another can be seen as a blood payment -- in line with @Wizz-The-Smith's 'SCION=COINS' wordplay.  Incidentally, the Black Gate can be conceptualized as 'drowned' in a sea of ice!  Basically, a submerged weirwood = the drowned god.

It's a symbolic inference, which you'll find more or less compelling depending on your taste for symbolic interpretation.  The simplest answer is that the 'old gods' are subterranean (cf. Bran and Bloodraven underground in the hollow hill fed by a 'sunless sea') and this is in the same realm as the subaquatic.

The 'Drowned' and 'Storm' gods must be two aspects of the same power, or someone like Garin, whom I consider to be a 'water maege' or greenseer, would not be able to summon the waters to drown his enemies.  Calling upon the waters to rise is hard to accomplish without engaging some kind of elemental force to move them.  What is this elemental force if not a wind, or storm?

Two examples: In the Prologue the Others fall upon Waymar like a storm of swords, emphasized by GRRM's word choice describing this event as a 'rain of needles', and further watery imagery of the 'rise and fall' of the swords like a deadly tide.  Waymar symbolically drowns in that deluge -- but then, transformed by the same, he rises 'harder and stronger' to take his revenge on his brother, suffocating him which is usually the mechanism of death in a drowning. Thus, the tables are turned and now Will suffers at the hands of Waymar -- I call it the 'counter-mocking' movement of the 'water dance'.  Wighted Waymar is the equivalent of the drowned god; his brother up the tree Will sending 'whispered prayers' in his direction as the storm god.  Another such pivotal duel was the one fought between Brandon Stark (a greenseer name, if ever there was one) vs. Petyr Baelish on the 'water stair' at Riverrun.  Similarly, Petyr is felled by the storm unleashed upon him by Brandon, 'raining steel on him', driving him into the water.  Baelish is thus the Waymar-drowned god-equivalent here, rising again from his 'near-mortal' wound hardened to take revenge against all the Starks, Tullys and Arryns.  Fittingly, he fantasizes about drowning Ned:

As a convenient rule of thumb, the underdog (?'undergod'...wordplay intended!) is the drowned god -- but that doesn't preclude him from reciprocally drowning others in revenge.

The 'priests' are the greenseers;

the 'hymns' and 'prayers' are the songs.

You're right that every act can be a prayer, even killing:

 

In a nutshell, the weirwood or weirnet is the drowned god.  

This is a useful summary of ideas surrounding my 'green sea/green see' pun:

 

 

 

Green sea = green see

Priest in a driftwood shelter = greenseer 'hooked' up to the weirwood in the hollow hill

'Lord beneath the waves' = e.g. Lord Brynden aka Bloodraven and the singer collective hivemind of the weirnet

The rumble of the waves = the rustle of the leaves

The language of leviathan = the True Tongue

In this passage, you have the roots of a submerged tree in the river compared directly to a 'monster,' specifically a 'kraken'.  The tree even drowns a man.

@ravenous reader thank you for taking the time to walk me through this symbolic parallels and connections. I think I understand your meaning now. When LynnS fist connected the Drowned God to the Old Gods I was under the misguided impression she was actually equalizing the deities and saying that although they are worshiped differently they were one and the same force. There are so many 'theories' out there aboutthe true nature of religions and magical powers in the ASOIAF world that I always expect people to come up with new ones... Now I see what you're poroposing is much more about the symbolism regarding Bran than about trying to figure out the "source of power" of the last greenseer, did I get it right? Anyways, thank you. There is a lot of interesting stuff in your post and it did open my eyes to connections I hadn't seen before, which is the whole point of participating in this forum for me  

[Curled Finger]

52 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Hi Quoth. Thanks for reading through my post and responding to it. The conversation here on this thread has been most interesting and I'm sure different opinions are always welcome. I believe we must recognized that very one of those statements you made are acutally debatable. Those aren't facts - 'Jaime is the only who changed for the better', 'Jon changed for the worse', and even if he 'betrayed his vows' are subject to the interpretation of readers, and I think it would be nice if you could ground your views for us. Why do you believe Jon changed for the worse? What has driven him to change? Those would be valuable additions to our current conversation. 

Oh, I believe it's well established that in Planetos there are other options besides rotting!

I agree with you. But how would after-life impact on the characters we are discussing? 

Well said, as usual, Lady.   I do want to just bring up my great revelation today: Patchface and Beric came back with new gifts.  Prophecy and the ability to light steel with blood.  I am glad you invited the discussion of Jon's plight.   It would be good to get a handle on his possible states of mind.   Though I am still determined that Brienne will find some faith and love in any change she may experience.   

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Well said, as usual, Lady.   I do want to just bring up my great revelation today: Patchface and Beric came back with new gifts.  Prophecy and the ability to light steel with blood.  I am glad you invited the discussion of Jon's plight.   It would be good to get a handle on his possible states of mind.   Though I am still determined that Brienne will find some faith and love in any change she may experience.   

They didn t just gain a gift. They lost something to gain the gift. In beric's case he lost memories and in patch's his wisdom.

However can t beric's gift be related in his new found belief in r'hllor? Becaese thoros is also able to ignite a blade...

[Lady Dacey]

46 minutes ago, divica said:

However can t beric's gift be related in his new found belief in r'hllor? Becaese thoros is also able to ignite a blade...

If I recall correctly Thoros uses wildfire dipped steel to fake a magic sword. In the books the only character to fight with a real burning blade is Beric, after he cuts his hand. Have we seen Thoros do the same? 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

If I recall correctly Thoros uses wildfire dipped steel to fake a magic sword. In the books the only character to fight with a real burning blade is Beric, after he cuts his hand. Have we seen Thoros do the same? 

I honestly don t remember how he ignited the sword. And then we have another big problem. As magic is coming back was thoros unable to ignite a sword with his blood before but is able to do it now?

How would beric even think of using blood to ignite a sword?

[Faera]

On 20/01/2018 at 4:42 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Hi there LynnS! I believe Bran may play a role as well. I personally don't lke theories that merge different religions together. While I see parallels can be made (and in real life I actually have faith that all "spiritual power" comes from the same source that is only interpreted differently in each culture) I don't see the author is planning on merging different systems of belief. 

Faera's proposition make a lot of sense to me:

I too, find it important that GRRM has chosen to keep Jon's destiny ambiguous after the attack. It reads like when Bran narrates his fall, or when we see Yoren bring a knife to Arya's neck at the end of her last chapter in AGOT. Martin has also chosen not to reveal if Jon really died when asked abou it in interviews. He has set precedents. 

I have seen the argument put forward that Bran might have the ability to bring people back from the dead based on the bit from Bran's final ADwD chapter after he sees the vision of Ned cleaning Ice where Leaf says something to the effect of, "Do not seek to call him back from death." The way in which she phrases it suggests it might be possible to call someone back from the dead with greenseer magic. However, I don't think this will be the case with Jon nor do I personally enjoy the notion that Bran will acquire the ability to raise the dead.

A major issue I have with the idea of that Jon will literally be raised by the dead by anyone is the effect death has on the resurrected. They never come back the same, it is true, but they are also never truly living again. It is made fairly clear that the "undead" characters of Beric, Coldhands, and Ser Robert Strong (who is totally Gregor) have no bodily functions - no blood flow, no need for eating or drinking, privy breaks, and no real sleep. They close their eyes but they don't seem to ever sleep -- which means they probably don't dream. Given that the ability to dream is a big enough part of Jon's character, (his dream about fighting the White Walkers, skinchanging Ghost and his weirwood meeting with Bran, and his recurring nightmare of the Winterfell Crypts), the idea that he might lose that makes me very uneasy. Sleep is ultimately a bodily function, so without it... how can Jon dream?

So, yes, I stand by my feeling that Jon will never truly physically die. His body will remain alive awaiting a reunion with his Ghost-bound soul. As others have pointed out one does not need to have physically died to have their "rebirth" moment.

On 20/01/2018 at 8:14 PM, Curled Finger said:

I swore when writing this topic that I would quit quoting everyone.   Now I see I went to work and you've all come here with such interesting stuff.  If I don't quote I will be lost, Faera, please forgive me.    I did read your reply to Julia H then to your humble host here.    Thank you for expanding on your thoughts here.  It has brought an entirely new way of thinking to my table at least. 

To the 1st, I'm very glad you brought up all the support Jon actually has.   Right or wrong, those who love him love him well.  Jon doesn't always appreciate the love he had at Winterfell, even though he falls short of calling his step mother an evil so and so.  He is nothing if not polite.  He knows his courtesies.  Jon's greatest obstacle is his lack of faith in himself.  I do hope, that akin to our own mass prayers for peace or recovery, that the love of his supporters will give him that faith in himself.  His vision is a very interesting place.  If we take Bran to be the Last Greenseer, perhaps the most powerful (compared to what we've seen of Bloodraven's er, talents), there is nothing preventing him from skin changing anyone, particularly a brother whom he joined while in unconscious warg with Ghost.   I doubt there is anything Bran couldn't connect with if he really set his mind to it.  He's reached out to Jon and Arya in their dreams.   Maybe Rickon and Sansa too--who knows?  He spoke to Theon through the tree.   Were the connections intentional?   I don't really know yet.   There is an awful lot of power amid the Stark kids, no crack pot is unreasonable at this point.

Excellent analysis of Pod.  You do a right nice job from your phone, Faera! 

You can quote as much as you want! Frankly, I would lose track of what I have said when and where if people didn't quote me. Anyway, for once I am actually on a laptop rather than a phone while commuting home from work so prepare for my wild tangents!

It is interesting you mention Jon's lack of faith in himself, which I sometimes thinks borders on an inferiority complex. I spoke before about the possible physical pain Jon might feel trying to return to his own body as well as the emotional shock over being betrayed by his "brothers", making the prospect of remaining is Ghost and never returning to his now-comatose body all the more appealing. Now, you've added another aspect that might help Jon make the choice that he needs to keep going -- the support unit he does have. Even though I noted that there are plenty of people who would likely move in quickly to try and save Jon after the attack I actually never thought how knowing he has their support might help him in his "recovery". I touched before somewhere on the possibility that we might see a retread of Bran's comatose state and the dream that finally awoke him, where I believe (hope) Jon will join the fliers and not the impaled dreamers, and your point has reminded me of another aspect of that dream; Bran saw far and wide - and he saw his loved ones going about their business. If Jon does have a similar experience (and, yes, I admit this is all guesswork and speculation) he might have the opportunity to see just how far people have gone to save and preserve him.

It has been established that Bran and Jon can both "feel" Rickon and Arya through their wolves - Summer and Ghost can sense Shaggydog and Nymeria. They can also sort of sense each other but because of the magic of the Wall, they cannot truly communicate with each other anymore. However, we've never seen anything quite on the level of Jon's weirwood!Bran dream, which really was something. I could go on forever about that dream (and have in other threads, aha!) That occurred even though Jon was beyond the Wall and Bran was beneath the earth in the crypts of Winterfell, just before Bran (and Rickon's) own messianic resurrections of emerging from the crypts. We discussed it a little on another thread (one of the 3EC-related threads) where we more or less agreed that greenseer magic might be about the only magic that can bypass the Wall completely because of the weirwood roots connecting both sides. Perhaps one of the reasons I really, really want Bran to somehow reach Jon and help him return to his body is not only will he get the chance briefly to see Bran (who he thinks is dead) again but the rest of their living siblings also.

As for Theon, I actually wonder if the Greyjoys have very similar powers to the Starks. Not the skinchanger aspect but the inclination towards magic, seeing and dream. It ties into this idea that some of us have that perhaps Euron is like the Anti-Bran or at least was one who may have been visited by the 3EC and he has been trying to achieve that feeling of power ever since. Aeron is another character who might be somewhat blessed. I can't think of anything specific about Asha at this moment but Theon hearing Bran (and possibly BR, or even the Reeds via them) through the weirwood reminds me of Meera's statement that her father (our beloved LCM!) could talk to trees. Perhaps you need sharp ears - or magically inclined ones - to really hear what the trees are saying.

I'll stop there else I'll go on speculating nonsense forever. 

[Seams]

Somewhere in his past, I think Ned may have seen someone come back from the dead:

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

"Then we should pray that Robert does not die."

"Small chance of that," said Renly.

"Sometimes the gods are merciful."

"The Lannisters are not." Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.

(AGoT, Eddard VIII)

One could question which gods were merciful, of course, and whether the situation Ned remembers involved a complete death, a kinda sorta death or no death at all.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Somewhere in his past, I think Ned may have seen someone come back from the dead:

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

"Then we should pray that Robert does not die."

"Small chance of that," said Renly.

"Sometimes the gods are merciful."

"The Lannisters are not." Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.

(AGoT, Eddard VIII)

One could question which gods were merciful, of course, and whether the situation Ned remembers involved a complete death, a kinda sorta death or no death at all.

I take a more literal approach to this passage - Ned is just being Ned and refusing to make 'dishonorable decisions'. I look at it that way specially because magic making a come back seems to be a big part of the story GRRM has set for us. In a way, magic itself could be a subject of this thread, as it's coming alive again after being thought dead by the westerosi. Now, if there was "magic enough" in the world for reanimation when Ned was younger, I think that would be incongruent with what we've learned so far about the world of ice and fire. 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Faera said:

I have seen the argument put forward that Bran might have the ability to bring people back from the dead based on the bit from Bran's final ADwD chapter after he sees the vision of Ned cleaning Ice where Leaf says something to the effect of, "Do not seek to call him back from death." The way in which she phrases it suggests it might be possible to call someone back from the dead with greenseer magic. However, I don't think this will be the case with Jon nor do I personally enjoy the notion that Bran will acquire the ability to raise the dead.

A major issue I have with the idea of that Jon will literally be raised by the dead by anyone is the effect death has on the resurrected. They never come back the same, it is true, but they are also never truly living again. It is made fairly clear that the "undead" characters of Beric, Coldhands, and Ser Robert Strong (who is totally Gregor) have no bodily functions - no blood flow, no need for eating or drinking, privy breaks, and no real sleep. They close their eyes but they don't seem to ever sleep -- which means they probably don't dream. Given that the ability to dream is a big enough part of Jon's character, (his dream about fighting the White Walkers, skinchanging Ghost and his weirwood meeting with Bran, and his recurring nightmare of the Winterfell Crypts), the idea that he might lose that makes me very uneasy. Sleep is ultimately a bodily function, so without it... how can Jon dream?

So, yes, I stand by my feeling that Jon will never truly physically die. His body will remain alive awaiting a reunion with his Ghost-bound soul. As others have pointed out one does not need to have physically died to have their "rebirth" moment.

You can quote as much as you want! Frankly, I would lose track of what I have said when and where if people didn't quote me. Anyway, for once I am actually on a laptop rather than a phone while commuting home from work so prepare for my wild tangents!

It is interesting you mention Jon's lack of faith in himself, which I sometimes thinks borders on an inferiority complex. I spoke before about the possible physical pain Jon might feel trying to return to his own body as well as the emotional shock over being betrayed by his "brothers", making the prospect of remaining is Ghost and never returning to his now-comatose body all the more appealing. Now, you've added another aspect that might help Jon make the choice that he needs to keep going -- the support unit he does have. Even though I noted that there are plenty of people who would likely move in quickly to try and save Jon after the attack I actually never thought how knowing he has their support might help him in his "recovery". I touched before somewhere on the possibility that we might see a retread of Bran's comatose state and the dream that finally awoke him, where I believe (hope) Jon will join the fliers and not the impaled dreamers, and your point has reminded me of another aspect of that dream; Bran saw far and wide - and he saw his loved ones going about their business. If Jon does have a similar experience (and, yes, I admit this is all guesswork and speculation) he might have the opportunity to see just how far people have gone to save and preserve him.

It has been established that Bran and Jon can both "feel" Rickon and Arya through their wolves - Summer and Ghost can sense Shaggydog and Nymeria. They can also sort of sense each other but because of the magic of the Wall, they cannot truly communicate with each other anymore. However, we've never seen anything quite on the level of Jon's weirwood!Bran dream, which really was something. I could go on forever about that dream (and have in other threads, aha!) That occurred even though Jon was beyond the Wall and Bran was beneath the earth in the crypts of Winterfell, just before Bran (and Rickon's) own messianic resurrections of emerging from the crypts. We discussed it a little on another thread (one of the 3EC-related threads) where we more or less agreed that greenseer magic might be about the only magic that can bypass the Wall completely because of the weirwood roots connecting both sides. Perhaps one of the reasons I really, really want Bran to somehow reach Jon and help him return to his body is not only will he get the chance briefly to see Bran (who he thinks is dead) again but the rest of their living siblings also.

As for Theon, I actually wonder if the Greyjoys have very similar powers to the Starks. Not the skinchanger aspect but the inclination towards magic, seeing and dream. It ties into this idea that some of us have that perhaps Euron is like the Anti-Bran or at least was one who may have been visited by the 3EC and he has been trying to achieve that feeling of power ever since. Aeron is another character who might be somewhat blessed. I can't think of anything specific about Asha at this moment but Theon hearing Bran (and possibly BR, or even the Reeds via them) through the weirwood reminds me of Meera's statement that her father (our beloved LCM!) could talk to trees. Perhaps you need sharp ears - or magically inclined ones - to really hear what the trees are saying.

I'll stop there else I'll go on speculating nonsense forever. 

These religions, their gifts and tolls, are driving me nuts now.  Oh yes I feel a very disjointed topic coming on!   Jon has got tremendous support from all sorts of people--his cousin Alys and the Thenns, Tormund and his gang, Morna Whitemask, Satin, Sansa, Sam--even Stannis, to mention only a few.  I'm talking real support not what ever political game the Stark Loving North has in mind, but people who know Jon and understand his heart if not his ideas.   I sure wish Maester Aemon had stayed at the Wall.  Still, there is a person missing from all those lists of people we could all compile.   Jon's auntie across the sea and far away.  I find it utterly distressing Mel never mentions her, Thoros doesn't mention her and Jon doesn't know of her.   Who knows?   With Cersei in charge Dany could be a savior to the realm of Westeros.   Just supposin'.   Maybe Gilly and Dalla's Boy are on that ship with Marwyn!   

Jon's got some very fierce people on his side, that is, who admire him and in Tormund and maybe Val's cases, maybe love him.   Love is a powerful thing.   I'm very interested to see the reactions of everyone at and along the Wall following Jon's attack.  I have thought of 1 thing that really may come of Jon's rest, dead or alive.   Should he wake, he will finally understand he is a warg and what that really means.  I'm excited for that.   Of course, I do wonder when he will begin having those exciting if disconcerting dragon dreams.   There is part of me who hopes the Wildlings execute Mel for all the damage she's done, particularly is she is unable to help in Jon's healing or revival.   Of course, I'm also very excited to read Arya and Sansa's reactions to what stories they hear of Jon post attack.    

We have the best conversations in our little book club!   

[Faera]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

These religions, their gifts and tolls, are driving me nuts now.  Oh yes I feel a very disjointed topic coming on!   

Do it!

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Jon has got tremendous support from all sorts of people--his cousin Alys and the Thenns, Tormund and his gang, Morna Whitemask, Satin, Sansa, Sam--even Stannis, to mention only a few.  I'm talking real support not what ever political game the Stark Loving North has in mind, but people who know Jon and understand his heart if not his ideas.   I sure wish Maester Aemon had stayed at the Wall. 

Well, it is another way in which Jon parallels Daenerys in a way - those who follow them love them. Plus, there are those traditionalists at the Wall who would profess to hate Jon yet I have a hard time believing they would completely condone Marsh’s actions either (*cough*Thorne*cough*).

The funny thing is that the Mountain clans’ meeting with Jon might be an indication that they have wishes to involve him in their big political conspiracy or at least keep him in mind. Especially if they learn of Robb’s will or know about it already.

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Still, there is a person missing from all those lists of people we could all compile.   Jon's auntie across the sea and far away.  I find it utterly distressing Mel never mentions her, Thoros doesn't mention her and Jon doesn't know of her.   Who knows?   With Cersei in charge Dany could be a savior to the realm of Westeros.   Just supposin'.   Maybe Gilly and Dalla's Boy are on that ship with Marwyn!   

It might be as simple as Daenerys not currently having been brought to their attention. Mel and Thoros go by the flames - and we at least know in Mel’s case she has not seen anything that we necessarily need associate with Dany... so, she probably isn’t factoring into the “plan” quite yet.

I have to admit that Dany’s set up seems to be to arrive late on the scene. I foresee Cersei being ousted by an Aegon-Arianne combo well before Daenerys arrives. It might be that she only gets her bum over there once news reaches her Aegon is there.

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Jon's got some very fierce people on his side, that is, who admire him and in Tormund and maybe Val's cases, maybe love him.   Love is a powerful thing.   I'm very interested to see the reactions of everyone at and along the Wall following Jon's attack.  I have thought of 1 thing that really may come of Jon's rest, dead or alive.   Should he wake, he will finally understand he is a warg and what that really means.  I'm excited for that.   Of course, I do wonder when he will begin having those exciting if disconcerting dragon dreams.   

Again, this is how I feel. Dreaming and warging are such important parts of Jon’s character. This notion that he might never sleep again is what draws me towards the idea of a “sleeping death” a la Snow White, over flat out death is what interests me about Jon having a spiritual and psychological rebirth while simultaneously. As said a few pages back, this sort of journey to the Otherworld and back being encapsulated in Jon’s transformation from man to wolf to man again.

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There is part of me who hopes the Wildlings execute Mel for all the damage she's done, particularly is she is unable to help in Jon's healing or revival.   Of course, I'm also very excited to read Arya and Sansa's reactions to what stories they hear of Jon post attack.    

In all fairness, Mel has not done any major damage yet buuuuuuuuuuut hearing Stannis is dead and Jon has been murdered or is dying might cause her to commit some sort of grievous offence that ultimately gets her killed. If anything her point of action for a while has been to keep Jon from harm - and we mustn’t forget she has a support unit of her own as well in the form of the remaining Queensguard... who admittedly might be on the verge of going into civil war with the wildlings without Jon there.

Actually, I was thinking about who will be the POV at the Wall during Jon’s “rest”. While we could very well get his POV through Ghost, if he is busy having his third eye opened by the 3EC or Bran or whatever, he probably won’t be paying as much attention to what is going on at the Wall.

So, it stands to reason this is why GRRM set Mel up as a POV in the first place — to bridge the period where Jon is OOA as the Wall POV. Perhaps it might well end with her being killed because in a bid to save Jon.

We need to also bear in mind that she, Selyse and Shireen are at MASSIVE risk with Jon gone and Stannis presumed dead. So, Mel might well have an invested interest in trying to keep Jon alive because the moment he dies is the moment all hell really truly breaks out at the Wall. 

I do wonder who will be in a position to take charge at Castle Black if all hell does break out - the wildlings and brothers still outnumber the conspirators, so might there be a power struggle to boot? Again, all the more reason to get Jon back up again.

In care it isn’t clear, I loved the Wall plot in ADwD. 

Spoiler

Also, thinking about it, isn’t Tycho Nestoris on his way back to the Wall with Jeyne Poole as of Theon I, TWoW? So, how bad fighting breaks out at the Wall may rely on whether they get there - and whether Jon is even awake by this point to greet them.

 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Faera said:

It might be as simple as Daenerys not currently having been brought to their attention. Mel and Thoros go by the flames - and we at least know in Mel’s case she has not seen anything that we necessarily need associate with Dany... so, she probably isn’t factoring into the “plan” quite yet.

I have to admit that Dany’s set up seems to be to arrive late on the scene. I foresee Cersei being ousted by an Aegon-Arianne combo well before Daenerys arrives. It might be that she only gets her bum over there once news reaches her Aegon is there.

A very interisting thought is: Where will danny arrive in westeros?

If we assume she isn t going to start an all out war with Aegon the moment she arrives then dorne, crownlands and stormlands are out. This means she would set sail to either the vale or the north.

Then we have moqorro, marwin and maybe gilly sailling to meereen. If these characters talk to danny and convence her she is AA and the others are coming I wouldn t be surprised if she decides to set sail to somewhere north to invistigate the matter...

4 minutes ago, Faera said:

Again, this is how I feel. Dreaming and warging are such important parts of Jon’s character. This notion that he might never sleep again is what draws me towards the idea of a “sleeping death” a la Snow White, over flat out death is what interests me about Jon having a spiritual and psychological rebirth while simultaneously. As said a few pages back, this sort of journey to the Otherworld and back being encapsulated in Jon’s transformation from man to wolf to man again.

To me the best outcome of this attack for jon would be him being in a coma for a few days because he is stuck inside ghost (he warged into him and doesn t know how to get out) and bran sends him dreams while he is in ghost. Like how to warg back into his body, some history about the previous long night, some info about the others, maybe a clue about lyanna, something about the burst of extra strenght jon seems to have when he is mad... There is a lot of potential here to explore.

4 minutes ago, Faera said:

In all fairness, Mel has not done any major damage yet buuuuuuuuuuut hearing Stannis is dead and Jon has been murdered or is dying might cause her to commit some sort of grievous offence that ultimately gets her killed. If anything her point of action for a while has been to keep Jon from harm - and we mustn’t forget she has a support unit of her own as well in the form of the remaining Queensguard... who admittedly might be on the verge of going into civil war with the wildlings without Jon there.

Actually, I was thinking about who will be the POV at the Wall during Jon’s “rest”. While we could very well get his POV through Ghost, if he is busy having his third eye opened by the 3EC or Bran or whatever, he probably won’t be paying as much attention to what is going on at the Wall.

So, it stands to reason this is why GRRM set Mel up as a POV in the first place — to bridge the period where Jon is OOA as the Wall POV. Perhaps it might well end with her being killed because in a bid to save Jon.

We need to also bear in mind that she, Selyse and Shireen are at MASSIVE risk with Jon gone and Stannis presumed dead. So, Mel might well have an invested interest in trying to keep Jon alive because the moment he dies is the moment all hell really truly breaks out at the Wall. 

I do wonder who will be in a position to take charge at Castle Black if all hell does break out - the wildlings and brothers still outnumber the conspirators, so might there be a power struggle to boot? Again, all the more reason to get Jon back up again.

In care it isn’t clear, I loved the Wall plot in ADwD. 

  Hide contents

Also, thinking about it, isn’t Tycho Nestoris on his way back to the Wall with Jeyne Poole as of Theon I, TWoW? So, how bad fighting breaks out at the Wall may rely on whether they get there - and whether Jon is even awake by this point to greet them.

I think you are forgeting that without mel's pov nobody would think jon might be dead because grrm doesn t kill characters in their own pov. So she was needed for the cliffhanger.

One of the things that I have realized is that the major reason for bowen and co attacking jon is because they think they must give ramsay what he wants. So one of the first things he would do if he is succesful in his coup is capture mel, selise, etc... 

So either mel and company will get away as fast as possible or she will intervene very fast and she and jon allies will arrest bowen and convince the rest of the NW that jon is alive and recuperating. Because if he dies nobody knows what might happen to her and the wildlings (don t Forget the hostages). As long as the new LC is anti wildling (which is very likely) he will also be pro Bolton because the watch can t fight the boltons right now... Either way I don t think jon can stay dead/comatose for a lot of days...

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

3 minutes ago, divica said:

think you are forgeting that without mel's pov nobody would think jon might be dead because grrm doesn t kill characters in their own pov. So she was needed for the cliffhanger.

Catelyn was killed in her own PoV

[divica]

7 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Catelyn was killed in her own PoV

But she was revived. So she wasn t really killed...

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Catelyn was killed in her own PoV

As was Quentyn and pretty much every single Prologue and Epilogue character.
 

2 hours ago, divica said:

I think you are forgeting that without mel's pov nobody would think jon might be dead because grrm doesn t kill characters in their own pov. So she was needed for the cliffhanger.

 

Oh, I didn't forget though I would argue the fact that Jon was stabbed by multiple people in his last chapter is enough for us as readers to come to the conclusion that he might be dead.

But yes, I see what you're getting at  -- Mel's there to provide the aftermath to Jon's attack sort of like how Barristan was for Quentyn's death. The only issue with that argument is that just because Jon is... whatever... doesn't mean he won't still have POVs via Ghost. My original point is that Melisandre is not solely there to resolve the cliffhanger but to be the replacement POV for the Wall events as a whole while Jon is "Ghost-ing". Without her, we completely lose any eyewitness at the Wall, since Sam is no longer there.

2 hours ago, divica said:

One of the things that I have realized is that the major reason for bowen and co attacking jon is because they think they must give ramsay what he wants. So one of the first things he would do if he is succesful in his coup is capture mel, selise, etc...

As long as the new LC is anti wildling (which is very likely) he will also be pro Bolton because the watch can t fight the boltons right now... Either way I don t think jon can stay dead/comatose for a lot of days...

10

The power vacuum has certainly done more damage than good. Bowen and co are damned either way so it calls to the less murderous members of the Watch to try and pick up the pieces.

Whether Ramsay actually makes good his promise and drags his hinny up to the Wall looking for his bride and his Reek is another matter. Not only do the Watch not have the most important people on his wish list - "Arya" and "Reek" - but we know that the weather has taken a massive turn for the worst, so getting to the Wall would be no easy feat for the Bolton forces who are already in a precarious situation with the Northern lords anyway.

I could see some of the Watch wanting to placate Ramsay but there are still enough of them who have reason to support Jon, not just the wildlings (even with the hostages, I doubt that will stop all of them from starting fights). I also doubt the Queensguard will all be willing to hand over Mel, the Queen or the Princess. At best, everyone is at stalemate while Jon is "out" and at worst, civil war on the Wall.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Shout outs to @Faera, @Seams, @Lady Dacey, and @Julia H. for some interesting points and discussion, much of which I agree with.  I unfortunately have been travelling and am on my mobile phone so it has been difficult to read through everything and jump in to where the conversation has led, but I am enjoying reading.

On 1/16/2018 at 11:07 PM, Curled Finger said:

I'm very pleased to enjoy another conversation with you @Lucius Lovejoy and thank you for your kind words.   Like you, this is here mostly to see what other folks think about this.   I've vacillated between thinking Jon and/or Brienne have died or not over the years.  There are good arguments for and against that's why it was important to me to put those possible "death" scene quotes in.   I share many of your sentiments about Beric and LSH.  It is not, however lost on me that you didn't mention the Others or wights.  Jon is in a most extraordinary situation, so close to the heart of ice magic and in direct sites of a fanatic,rogue Red Priestess.  Don't be shy, say it how you see, Ser.  

Could be 1 or 2 of these characters will die to become undead.  What does undead really do to any of them?  We see what fire revival does, but what does ice revival--if that's what it is as opposed to a preserving--do to any of them?  How does this state of being effect their missions?

It was a nice post and I do hope you will pop in as you are moved.  

 

Thanks for the kind words, friend.  You are correct to notice that I purposefully left out reflections on the role of ice in resurrections.  I view the ice magic "resurrections" such as what happens with the wights as an entirely different thing - my interpretation is that wights are still dead, only reanimated via power that is specific to the Others (and not ice in general), and while some shred of their memory may be thought to exist (the wights who first tried to attack Mormont) it really cannot be that much, after all they are "reprogrammed" of sorts to kill their old Lord Commader, and lack the ability to talk, the need for sleep, etc.  I don't know what to make of Coldhands so I am going to admittedly ignore him as some special case due to intervention of the COTF.  My thinking is that the preservative power of ice will really only come into play with respect to the lack of body decomposition Jon may have while he is in his coma/suspended/dead state, and not relate to memory or personality in any way.

I like the interpretation that LSH is a different character than Catelyn but I disagree.  I see her being in the same vein as Beric... resurrected and something slightly less than her original self, but still Catelyn.  The amount of time spend dead/bodily decomposing may have an impact on the wholeness of one's mind when they are resurrected.  I believe LSH's real purpose though is to be confronted by Arya, so Arya can see how a sole focus on vengeance corrupts a person, and Arya would then fear her soul would have become as fearsome and terrible as LSH's outer appearance, thus helping Arya to gain some perspective and pivot towards learning the benefits of actual mercy (not her/Joffrey's "mercy" of death) and forgiveness.