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When the Dead Come Knocking


Curled Finger

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2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks Megorova, my lame little goggle search didn't give me a lot and I am of a mind that time passed differently than what we read in both Jon and Brienne's chapters.  I know I need to learn a great deal more of the mechanics of stabbing and hanging, but Google is worried for my mental health now.   

:)

Execution survivors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Duell_(criminal)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Greene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Smith_(housebreaker)

So even though Brienne and Pod were hanged, it doesn't mean that they died, or that anyone had to perform a kiss of life, to bring them back. Brienne sees that Pod's legs were jerking, which means that his neck didn't broke, thus if both of them were taken off the rope, prior they were completely strangled, then they both survived.

Probably they are keeping Pod as a hostage, until Brienne will bring them Jaime. Or maybe she asked Cat to let her and Jaime to fulfill their promise - they will go to The Eyrie to look there for Arya (because her last known whereabout were on the way there). So they will go to The Vale, but instead of Arya, they will find there Sansa.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Bran is meant to replace him and battle godless outlanders and minions of the night.

Bran is the one who's name cannot be spoken.

Wait a minute! A deity whose name can't be spoken is the Great Other, the evil leader of the Others, the one who turned corpses into wights. Are you suggesting that it's Bran???

When I was reading one of your previous posts in this thread, I thought that out of two water deities, it seems more likely, that the Drowned God is a parallel to the Great Other from fire religion, while the other one - the Lord of Storms, is a parallel to the Lord of Light/R'hllor.

Because what separates those two deities, is the sea water - above water the Lord of Storms, below water the Drowned God. When people die, the Great Other turn them into wights. While Ironborn's motto is What is dead, may never die. So isn't both of those are actually forms of necromancy? Thus Ironborn are worshipers of Evil deity.

This is from Wikia:

"The faith of the Drowned God is unique to the Iron Islands. He is seen as the creator of the seas and father of the ironborn. The ironborn believe they come from the watery halls of the Drowned God. The Drowned God is said to have made the ironborn in his own likeness, to reave, rape, carve out kingdoms, make their names known in fire and blood and song and to hold dominion over all the waters of the earth.

The ironborn believe that the Drowned God is opposed by the Storm God. This malignant deity dwells in the sky and has hatred for men and all their works. The Storm God resides in a cloudy hall, and sends cruel winds, lashing rains, and the thunder and lightning down upon men."

Basically men created by Drowned God are monsters that rape and kill, and do other evil things. While the Storm God hates them for it, and sends winds and rains to stop them from doing their evil deeds.

So if Bran is blessed by Drowned God, then he is also evil.

Add to that that Melisandre, after seeing Bran in her flames, thought that he is a servant of the Great Other.

Combined together it means that Bran is going to be champion of darkness, while Jon or Dany are going to fight against him on the other side.

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Edit:  I compare the three headed god Trios to Whitetree+Black Gate+Thoros.  One head consumes, the third head disgorges and nobody knows what the middle head does.

This is truly excellent. There might be other options for the third position, besides Thoros, but the white tree and the black gate as two of the heads are really an inspired insight. A Catelyn POV told us that ravens could fly through the door that separates life and death (crones can peer through it, but the black birds can navigate it freely). So the necessity of a Night's Watch guide to pass through the black gate makes perfect sense.

I also like the question of which side of the gate is which. It might depend on your perspective, like that earlier thought about the onion, that "lives" while it's buried but dies after being disinterred.

GRRM makes a point of telling us that Thoros and Ser Jorah were the first people over the wall when the Seige of Pyke was broken and the Greyjoy rebellion was put down. Old Nan's grandson also died at that wall. Theon came over the wall when he invaded Winterfell. Ser Barriston scaled the wall at Duskendale. We are waiting to learn how badly Ser Loras was injured as the first guy over the wall at Dragonstone. There seems to be something about going over a wall - I don't know whether the person starts out especially suited for that task before the attempt, or whether they gain some magical quality after making it over the top. Like the Night's Watch guys who have a special talent for opening the black gate, it seems as if these wall climbers have (or gain) a special ability to cross important walls. I bet a close examination of the chapter where Jon climbs the Wall with Ygritte would help to clarify whether the power is innate or whether it can be secured by some special kind of effort or vow.

I want to figure out whether these people have an ability to transcend the normal expectations about life and death. Thoros, with his apparent ability to bring back Ser Beric from death, strikes me as good evidence in favor of this idea. I suppose Bran's wall-climbing before his injury at Winterfell might be a hint about his ability to bring back Jon or others after death.

A separate thought: GRRM went to a lot of trouble to set up a tableau with one-armed Donal Noye dead in the tunnel at Castle Black, having killed but also being killed by a giant at that location. I wonder whether this will be foreshadowing for one-armed Jaime's eventual fate? If so, which "giant" will come into conflict with Jaime, and at which door between life and death?

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

. . . maybe she asked Cat to let her and Jaime to fulfill their promise - they will go to The Eyrie to look there for Arya (because her last known whereabouts were on the way there). So they will go to The Vale, but instead of Arya, they will find there Sansa.

 

Spoiler

I like this a lot. My recent re-read focus on Brienne and a reminder from @Curled Finger led me to compare Brienne to Lyanna earlier in this thread. I would LOVE to see Brienne at a tournament where she might undertake a Mystery Knight role . . . Of course, it would be difficult for Brienne to disguise herself, unless she wears her helmet and doesn't say anything at all. Kinda like the dead guy known as Ser Robert Strong. 

 

 

 

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another great topic @Curled Finger and everyone, all great thoughts, i'm enjoying all these new ideas as i re-read.

my two questions - are these three, Catelyn , Jaime, Brienne - all 'followers' of the 7?
were the folks in the BWB all worshippers of the 7?

... is LSH what Jaime & Brienne have to look forward to in their spiritual evolution?
OR is there no connection between what your "religion" is and what is happening to you in/during your progress towards whatever DEATH is/eventually is? like what Berick and Catelyn became?

CurledFinger - i think we have to dig up the list of the levels of dead!

 

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12 minutes ago, Yaya said:

another great topic @Curled Finger and everyone, all great thoughts, i'm enjoying all these new ideas as i re-read.

my two questions - are these three, Catelyn , Jaime, Brienne - all 'followers' of the 7?
were the folks in the BWB all worshippers of the 7?

... is LSH what Jaime & Brienne have to look forward to in their spiritual evolution?
OR is there no connection between what your "religion" is and what is happening to you in/during your progress towards whatever DEATH is/eventually is? like what Berick and Catelyn became?

CurledFinger - i think we have to dig up the list of the levels of dead!

 

OH just look at who poked her head in.   YaYa, it's so good to see you!  Believe me, our list list of the dead has crossed my mind more than once in this topic.   Because and you and I well know, there are different degrees of dead!  However, it's good to see you jump in and enjoying yourself.   I will venture a guess at your questions...

Yes, I believe Catelyn Jamie and Brienne were all raised in the Faith of the Seven, though follower is a relative thing.   I'm not sure what religion is prevalent in Dorne, but the 120 men sent off with Beric Dondarrion were from all over the place, comprised of many faiths.   Thoros of Myr is a Red Priest and seems to have made quite a few converts to R'hllor with the BWB.  

Nah, I doubt either Jamie or Brienne would reanimate quite like LSH.   Remember how Cat died as those final thoughts and moments seem to be the determining factor to the personality of the newly risen in R'hllor.   Beric had his justice, LSH has her vengeance.   If I am completely honest I also wonder if there is some difference in revival by the kiss of life where the Red Priest almost shares his fire as opposed to a transfer of fire wherein the person doing the kissing gives up his or her life.   I picture Brienne much as she is and Jamie 50% more likely to keep his vows to the place he is.   That is, he would lose his connection to being a Kings Guard.   But that is just what I imagine.  

Outside of R'hllor, I don't see any religion being a factor in a red revival.  As Jamie is fond of saying, the gods don't seem to care much.   It is as though these gods and religions are inactive or apathetic.   We know GRRM said we won't see gods in ASOIAF, so I'm thinking they aren't really a factor in the miracles.   

Our Jon is a follower of the old gods.   Does that matter in his revival?  I think it might, particularly with all these new ideas regarding greenseeing Bran's involvement.  But I don't think the old gods properly involve themselves.   Then again, there is little support for the Jon is Dead campaign here.   However, there are some really fascinating ideas regarding the circumstances and outcomes for all 3 of our heroes, here.  

You gave us some good thinking material in your questions, YaYa, but I know you suspect something.   Let's have it, what do you think?  

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14 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

 

Great post Julia H. One thing however, and I don't mean to veer off topic and distract from the interesting and insightful discussion being had here by you and others on this thread, but I believe that Ned's bed being carved of Wierwood is a misconception held by many around here. Recently, I was having a discussion with a few forum members in regards to this matter - all of us who had believed this to be the case - but despite our efforts, none of us could find anything to confirm that in fact the bed was made of Wierwood. If you know of anything that could confirm this, I would greatly appreciate if you could point me in the right direction. 

Hm. As I was reading your post, I was sure I had been made aware of this piece information on these forums (as with many other things which had escaped my notice on first reading) but I also could have sworn I had read a description of Ned's bed in Winterfell somewhere. (I have never read ASOIAF fanfiction so it had to be in the novels.) Now, however, as I was trying to find the quote, I couldn't. So thanks for the heads-up! (Apparently, Theon's dream could only have been influenced by the general Old Gods magic of Winterfell, like the closeness of the Heart Tree. :blush:) I've become rather intrigued and curious if Ned's weirwood bed is really just an unfounded legend or where this idea had come from. If I should find anything, I'll let you know.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes, I believe Catelyn Jamie and Brienne were all raised in the Faith of the Seven, though follower is a relative thing.   I'm not sure what religion is prevalent in Dorne, but the 120 men sent off with Beric Dondarrion were from all over the place, comprised of many faiths.   Thoros of Myr is a Red Priest and seems to have made quite a few converts to R'hllor with the BWB.  

I've been also pondering the connection between religion and the Kiss of Life. Was Beric converted by Thoros before he first died? If not, did he become a convert after being resurrected? If he did, then was it an "automatic assumption" made by everyone and accepted by himself or was he able to consciously do it? How about Catelyn? In her case, we know she was of the Faith when she died. What is Lady Stoneheart's relationship with R'hllor? Is that another difference between Catelyn and Lady Stoneheart? In the case of Jon, not only does he belong to the Old Gods, but he also effectively detests certain aspects of Melisandre's faith (like burning people alive). He behaves in a tolerant way towards converts on the Wall (and why wouldn't he?) but he doesn't trust the Red Woman's powers, and I also find this problematic with regard to a resurrection by Melisandre in his case, perhaps more from an ethical angle than from a technical one.

With regard to Jon's "death", and somewhat with the idea of the Kiss of Life in mind, I have always found this quote interesting and the scene strangely intense:

Black brothers, northmen, free folk, Thenns, Queen's men, all of them fell quiet, listening. Five heartbeats passed. Ten. Twenty. Then Owen the Oaf tittered, and Jon Snow could breathe again. "Two blasts," he announced. "Wildlings." Val

Tormund Giantsbane had come at last.

The various factions listed in the quote are practically the same as the ones also present in Castle Black when Jon is stabbed. (Melisandre is absent.) Twenty heartbeats before Jon Snow can breathe again. (Heart as meaning love and support, heart as meaning the Heart Tree?) Two blasts: Should we think of the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers? And then wildlings and Val. 

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12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Wait a minute! A deity whose name can't be spoken is the Great Other, the evil leader of the Others, the one who turned corpses into wights. Are you suggesting that it's Bran???

I'm not sure what Melisandre is looking for across the Wall.  Bran it would seem is the Great Wolf while Dany is or will become the Great Dragon. Euron represents something else again.  Something that would destroy Bran and enslave Dany if he could.

Melisandre says the ancient enemy is the soul of ice:

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A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war?" asked Davos.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

The name that may not be spoken is different from the the name that cannot be spoken.  It would seem that Melisandre knows the name and the prohibition is against speaking it.  But she doesn't know what form the GO takes or what he looks like. Essentially, the GO is faceless, represents the stranger.

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise.

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room, devouring all her unwanted dreams. The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers

 

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10 hours ago, Seams said:

There might be other options for the third position, besides Thoros, but the white tree and the black gate as two of the heads are really an inspired insight

Cheers Seams!  Yes, the third head is the agency by which someone is brought back to life.  Patchface, Sam, Davos and Tyrion come to mind since they all seemed to have drowned.  

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2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

With regard to Jon's "death", and somewhat with the idea of the Kiss of Life in mind, I have always found this quote interesting and the scene strangely intense:

Black brothers, northmen, free folk, Thenns, Queen's men, all of them fell quiet, listening. Five heartbeats passed. Ten. Twenty. Then Owen the Oaf tittered, and Jon Snow could breathe again. "Two blasts," he announced. "Wildlings." Val

Tormund Giantsbane had come at last.

The various factions listed in the quote are practically the same as the ones also present in Castle Black when Jon is stabbed. (Melisandre is absent.) Twenty heartbeats before Jon Snow can breathe again. (Heart as meaning love and support, heart as meaning the Heart Tree?) Two blasts: Should we think of the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers? And then wildlings and Val. 

Nice catch!  I think it could imply Jon's resurrection with help of weirwood-plus-Bran.  This is the heartbeat of the heart tree:

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

In the godswood the snow was still dissolving as it touched the earth. Steam rose off the hot pools, fragrant with the smell of moss and mud and decay. A warm fog hung in the air, turning the trees into sentinels, tall soldiers shrouded in cloaks of gloom. During daylight hours, the steamy wood was often full of northmen come to pray to the old gods, but at this hour Theon Greyjoy found he had it all to himself.

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

 

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12 hours ago, Megorova said:

This is from Wikia:

"The faith of the Drowned God is unique to the Iron Islands. He is seen as the creator of the seas and father of the ironborn. The ironborn believe they come from the watery halls of the Drowned God. The Drowned God is said to have made the ironborn in his own likeness, to reave, rape, carve out kingdoms, make their names known in fire and blood and song and to hold dominion over all the waters of the earth.

The ironborn believe that the Drowned God is opposed by the Storm God. This malignant deity dwells in the sky and has hatred for men and all their works. The Storm God resides in a cloudy hall, and sends cruel winds, lashing rains, and the thunder and lightning down upon men."

Of course all men think they are made in god's image.  The first drowned god was the Grey King who also lived for a thousand years according to the tales. He defeated the sea dragon and then stole her fire.  A sea dragon is essentially a volcanic mount risen in the sea.  Dragonstone is also a 'sea dragon' and it's considered a place of sorcery.  Nagga's bones are likely the relic of a weirwood grove.  So a greenseer enthroned on a volcanic sea mount would place him beneath the sea. 

Patchface gives additional under the sea references north of the Wall.  In this case the forest is the sea.

 

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5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Hm. As I was reading your post, I was sure I had been made aware of this piece information on these forums (as with many other things which had escaped my notice on first reading) but I also could have sworn I had read a description of Ned's bed in Winterfell somewhere. (I have never read ASOIAF fanfiction so it had to be in the novels.) Now, however, as I was trying to find the quote, I couldn't. So thanks for the heads-up! (Apparently, Theon's dream could only have been influenced by the general Old Gods magic of Winterfell, like the closeness of the Heart Tree. :blush:) I've become rather intrigued and curious if Ned's weirwood bed is really just an unfounded legend or where this idea had come from. If I should find anything, I'll let you know.

 

It happens.  I made the same mistake with the reason for our not knowing the words of House Dayne.  

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On 1/20/2018 at 1:07 PM, LynnS said:

@ravenous readerI think the Poetess of Nennymoans can better explain the under the sea references.   I've just realized that there is an identifiable drowned god when I compared the Forsaken Chapter and Euron's words about the drowned god's kiss, wet and salty, and Bran's passage through the Black Gate.  As for the Storm Gods, that's a good question. 

That's a good catch.  I presume you're referring to the warm salty tear which falls on Bran as he makes the border crossing, marking his cheek in the vein of the slaves of Volantis.  Bran is undergoing initiation as a slave to the weirwood once he steps across the 'under the sea' boundary represented by the Black Gate. Reflecting this sacrificial aspect with brothel undertones, 'Bran did not want to be married to a tree...'  In other words, symbolically Bran is being 'whored out' to the trees.  He not Jon is the latest 'blue rose of Winterfell' stolen away by some singer(s)!  Significantly, on the day of his departure from Winterfell, the glass panes of the glass gardens, known to house the blue winter rose, are noted to be smashed, as if something precious may have been stolen from within.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

And the whores were out. River or sea, a port was a port, and wherever you found sailors, you'd find whores. Is that what my father meant? Is that where whores go, to the sea?  The whores of Lannisport and King's Landing were free women. Their sisters of Selhorys were slaves, their bondage indicated by the tears tattooed beneath their right eyes. 

The whores are found around the sailors or sea men (semen..?!)

Whores go 'to the sea' -- in Bran's case, this is to the 'see' (i.e. 'weirnet').

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“Your Grace,” said Torwald Browntooth. “I have the priests. What do you want done with them?”

Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others. One to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.

A priest being tied to a ship's wooden prow, in order to harness the elements Ironborn-style, is analogous to a greenseer being tied to a weirwood -- basically hanged like Odin or crucified like Christ (cf. Bloodraven pinioned and riddled through by the roots).  It's a sacrificial rite constituting the barter of a life for power and a measure of immortality; thus, the ominous injunction to Sam in that moment, who is forced to swear 'upon the life you owe me' (this is Monster's life) to 'ensure Bran stays dead' thrice. Consolidating the 'whore/brothel' symbolism, the exchange of one life for another can be seen as a blood payment -- in line with @Wizz-The-Smith's 'SCION=COINS' wordplay.  Incidentally, the Black Gate can be conceptualized as 'drowned' in a sea of ice!  Basically, a submerged weirwood = the drowned god.

On 1/20/2018 at 0:58 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Why do you think the Old Gods and the Drowned one are related? I'm genuinely curious, I never saw a connection there.

It's a symbolic inference, which you'll find more or less compelling depending on your taste for symbolic interpretation.  The simplest answer is that the 'old gods' are subterranean (cf. Bran and Bloodraven underground in the hollow hill fed by a 'sunless sea') and this is in the same realm as the subaquatic.

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The religion belief of the Iron Islands seem to be based on a "two opposing forces" way o seeing things (Drowned God versus the Storm God) which is somewhat similar to the philosophy of R'hollorism (Lord of Light versus the great Other).

The 'Drowned' and 'Storm' gods must be two aspects of the same power, or someone like Garin, whom I consider to be a 'water maege' or greenseer, would not be able to summon the waters to drown his enemies.  Calling upon the waters to rise is hard to accomplish without engaging some kind of elemental force to move them.  What is this elemental force if not a wind, or storm?

Two examples: In the Prologue the Others fall upon Waymar like a storm of swords, emphasized by GRRM's word choice describing this event as a 'rain of needles', and further watery imagery of the 'rise and fall' of the swords like a deadly tide.  Waymar symbolically drowns in that deluge -- but then, transformed by the same, he rises 'harder and stronger' to take his revenge on his brother, suffocating him which is usually the mechanism of death in a drowning. Thus, the tables are turned and now Will suffers at the hands of Waymar -- I call it the 'counter-mocking' movement of the 'water dance'.  Wighted Waymar is the equivalent of the drowned god; his brother up the tree Will sending 'whispered prayers' in his direction as the storm god.  Another such pivotal duel was the one fought between Brandon Stark (a greenseer name, if ever there was one) vs. Petyr Baelish on the 'water stair' at Riverrun.  Similarly, Petyr is felled by the storm unleashed upon him by Brandon, 'raining steel on him', driving him into the water.  Baelish is thus the Waymar-drowned god-equivalent here, rising again from his 'near-mortal' wound hardened to take revenge against all the Starks, Tullys and Arryns.  Fittingly, he fantasizes about drowning Ned:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

"Do you always find murder so amusing, Lord Baelish?"

"It's not murder I find amusing, Lord Stark, it's you. You rule like a man dancing on rotten ice. I daresay you will make a noble splash. I believe I heard the first crack this morning."

"The first and last," said Ned.

As a convenient rule of thumb, the underdog (?'undergod'...wordplay intended!) is the drowned god -- but that doesn't preclude him from reciprocally drowning others in revenge.

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The Old Gods are referred in the books as "the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret" (Bran), "the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows"(Samwell)  and "nameless gods of wood and hill and field" (Viramyr). That makes me think is a sort of system of belief that is very different from the one the Ironborn practice. The Ironborn have priests and rituals and even baptism, they have an organized religion. The Old Gods are the forces of Nature Itself, personified. There's no need for priests, there are no hymns, so every act can be a prayer (there are even wordless prayers referenced in the books). It's very core seems to be personal practice, as we see with Ned, Bran, Jon and Arya in different points of the narrative. 

The 'priests' are the greenseers;

the 'hymns' and 'prayers' are the songs.

You're right that every act can be a prayer, even killing:

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A Storm of Swords - Arya IV

"Well," said Arya, "not the way I do it."

"No? I have always found it so. The gods give each of us our little gifts and talents, and it is meant for us to use them, my aunt always says. Any act can be a prayer, if done as well as we are able. Isn't that a lovely thought? Remember that the next time you do your needlework. Do you work at it every day?"

"I did till I lost Needle. My new one's not as good."

 

In a nutshell, the weirwood or weirnet is the drowned god.  

This is a useful summary of ideas surrounding my 'green sea/green see' pun:

 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

Closer at hand, it was the trees that ruled. To south and east the wood went on as far as Jon could see, a vast tangle of root and limb painted in a thousand shades of green, with here and there a patch of red where a weirwood shouldered through the pines and sentinels, or a blush of yellow where some broadleafs had begun to turn. When the wind blew, he could hear the creak and groan of branches older than he was. A thousand leaves fluttered, and for a moment the forest seemed a deep green sea, storm-tossed and heaving, eternal and unknowable.

Ghost was not like to be alone down there, he thought. Anything could be moving under that sea, creeping toward the ringfort through the dark of the wood, concealed beneath those trees. Anything. How would they ever know? He stood there for a long time, until the sun vanished behind the saw-toothed mountains and darkness began to creep through the forest.

 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon III

A blowing rain lashed at Jon's face as he spurred his horse across the swollen stream. Beside him, Lord Commander Mormont gave the hood of his cloak a tug, muttering curses on the weather. His raven sat on his shoulder, feathers ruffled, as soaked and grumpy as the Old Bear himself. A gust of wind sent wet leaves flapping round them like a flock of dead birds. The haunted forest, Jon thought ruefully. The drowned forest, more like it.

 

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A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

They had built a [driftwood] shelter for the priest just above the tideline. Gladly he crawled into it, after he had drowned his newest followers. My god, he prayed, speak to me in the rumble of the waves, and tell me what to do. The captains and the kings await your word. Who shall be our king in Balon's place? Sing to me in the language of leviathan, that I may know his name. Tell me, O Lord beneath the waves, who has the strength to fight the storm on Pyke?

Green sea = green see

Priest in a driftwood shelter = greenseer 'hooked' up to the weirwood in the hollow hill

'Lord beneath the waves' = e.g. Lord Brynden aka Bloodraven and the singer collective hivemind of the weirnet

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see," 

The rumble of the waves = the rustle of the leaves

The language of leviathan = the True Tongue

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A Storm of Swords - Arya IX

If I jumped over the side, the river would wash me away before the Hound even knew that I was gone. She looked back over a shoulder, and saw Sandor Clegane struggling with his frightened horse, trying to calm him. She would never have a better chance to get away from him. I might drown, though. Jon used to say that she swam like a fish, but even a fish might have trouble in this river. Still, drowning might be better than King's Landing. She thought about Joffrey and crept up to the prow. The river was murky brown with mud and lashed by rain, looking more like soup than water. Arya wondered how cold it would be. I couldn't get much wetter than I am now. She put a hand on the rail.

But a sudden shout snapped her head about before she could leap. The ferrymen were rushing forward, poles in hand. For a moment she did not understand what was happening. Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. The oarsmen were backing water frantically, trying to avoid a collision that could capsize them or stove their hull in. The old man had wrenched the rudder about, and the horse at the prow was swinging downstream, but too slowly. Glistening brown and black, the tree rushed toward them like a battering ram.

It could not have been more than ten feet from their prow when two of the boatmen somehow caught it with their long poles. One snapped, and the long splintering craaaack made it sound as if the ferry were breaking up beneath them. But the second man managed to give the trunk a hard shove, just enough to deflect it away from them. The tree swept past the ferry with inches to spare, its branches scrabbling like claws against the horsehead. Only just when it seemed as if they were clear, one of the monster's upper limbs dealt them a glancing thump. The ferry seemed to shudder, and Arya slipped, landing painfully on one knee. The man with the broken pole was not so lucky. She heard him shout as he stumbled over the side. Then the raging brown water closed over him, and he was gone in the time it took Arya to climb back to her feet. One of the other boatmen snatched up a coil of rope, but there was no one to throw it to.

In this passage, you have the roots of a submerged tree in the river compared directly to a 'monster,' specifically a 'kraken'.  The tree even drowns a man.

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40 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

That's a good catch.  I presume you're referring to the warm salty tear which falls on Bran as he makes the border crossing, marking his cheek in the vein of the slaves of Volantis.

Thank you for 'splaining the under the sea references.  :D

As for Bran and the salty tear; in this this case, I'm going with the Christian symbolism of baptism, blessing, anointment and communion. Bran's wedding and symbolic crucifixion transforms him into someone with holy blood. I think Bran is meant to replace the drowned god of Whitetree rather than Bloodraven.

I have an expanded interpretation of tree-bran's appearance to Jon:

A comparison of the tree at the Night Fort and tree-Bran has striking similarities:  both trees are breaking through stone to reach the light.  Both are unusually slender and twisted. I don't think the tree at the Night Fort is a separate tree but a sapling produced from the root system of the larger tree at Whitetree.  Further, Jon describes tree-Bran as growing before his eyes and hence the allusion to the blue rose growing from a chink in the Wall.

I would say that Bran has found his source of power in Whitetree and his connection to the power in the Wall through it's root system and the black gate. Bran can open this door and connect with Jon on the river of time.  He truly isn't confined and can go where he pleases. 

 

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Cheers Seams!  Yes, the third head is the agency by which someone is brought back to life.  Patchface, Sam, Davos and Tyrion come to mind since they all seemed to have drowned.  

This Trios mystery is a good one.  You mentioned Patchface, who we know was drowned and really expected to be dead--strictly a water death, that is--can you tie the Drowned god or the practice of Ironborn revival (which is known as the kiss of life IRL, sort of on the subject off the subject) to this?  Aeron has certainly been drowned.  I don't recall if Theon was when he went home or not.   

Now you've got me thinking about Patchface being a clever entertainer prior to dying.  His resurrection does seem to be much like Beric's even LSH's--where they are less in revival.  Wow, I never made the connection before.   Thanks for that!   

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

That's a good catch.  I presume you're referring to the warm salty tear which falls on Bran as he makes the border crossing, marking his cheek in the vein of the slaves of Volantis.  Bran is undergoing initiation as a slave to the weirwood once he steps across the 'under the sea' boundary represented by the Black Gate. Reflecting this sacrificial aspect with brothel undertones, 'Bran did not want to be married to a tree...'  In other words, symbolically Bran is being 'whored out' to the trees.  He not Jon is the latest 'blue rose of Winterfell' stolen away by some singer(s)!  Significantly, on the day of his departure from Winterfell, the glass panes of the glass gardens, known to house the blue winter rose, are noted to be smashed, as if something precious may have been stolen from within.

The whores are found around the sailors or sea men (semen..?!)

Whores go 'to the sea' -- in Bran's case, this is to the 'see' (i.e. 'weirnet').

A priest being tied to a ship's wooden prow, in order to harness the elements Ironborn-style, is analogous to a greenseer being tied to a weirwood -- basically hanged like Odin or crucified like Christ (cf. Bloodraven pinioned and riddled through by the roots).  It's a sacrificial rite constituting the barter of a life for power and a measure of immortality; thus, the ominous injunction to Sam in that moment, who is forced to swear 'upon the life you owe me' (this is Monster's life) to 'ensure Bran stays dead' thrice. Consolidating the 'whore/brothel' symbolism, the exchange of one life for another can be seen as a blood payment -- in line with @Wizz-The-Smith's 'SCION=COINS' wordplay.  Incidentally, the Black Gate can be conceptualized as 'drowned' in a sea of ice!  Basically, a submerged weirwood = the drowned god.

It's a symbolic inference, which you'll find more or less compelling depending on your taste for symbolic interpretation.  The simplest answer is that the 'old gods' are subterranean (cf. Bran and Bloodraven underground in the hollow hill fed by a 'sunless sea') and this is in the same realm as the subaquatic.

The 'Drowned' and 'Storm' gods must be two aspects of the same power, or someone like Garin, whom I consider to be a 'water maege' or greenseer, would not be able to summon the waters to drown his enemies.  Calling upon the waters to rise is hard to accomplish without engaging some kind of elemental force to move them.  What is this elemental force if not a wind, or storm?

Two examples: In the Prologue the Others fall upon Waymar like a storm of swords, emphasized by GRRM's word choice describing this event as a 'rain of needles', and further watery imagery of the 'rise and fall' of the swords like a deadly tide.  Waymar symbolically drowns in that deluge -- but then, transformed by the same, he rises 'harder and stronger' to take his revenge on his brother, suffocating him which is usually the mechanism of death in a drowning. Thus, the tables are turned and now Will suffers at the hands of Waymar -- I call it the 'counter-mocking' movement of the 'water dance'.  Wighted Waymar is the equivalent of the drowned god; his brother up the tree Will sending 'whispered prayers' in his direction as the storm god.  Another such pivotal duel was the one fought between Brandon Stark (a greenseer name, if ever there was one) vs. Petyr Baelish on the 'water stair' at Riverrun.  Similarly, Petyr is felled by the storm unleashed upon him by Brandon, 'raining steel on him', driving him into the water.  Baelish is thus the Waymar-drowned god-equivalent here, rising again from his 'near-mortal' wound hardened to take revenge against all the Starks, Tullys and Arryns.  Fittingly, he fantasizes about drowning Ned:

As a convenient rule of thumb, the underdog (?'undergod'...wordplay intended!) is the drowned god -- but that doesn't preclude him from reciprocally drowning others in revenge.

The 'priests' are the greenseers;

the 'hymns' and 'prayers' are the songs.

You're right that every act can be a prayer, even killing:

 

In a nutshell, the weirwood or weirnet is the drowned god.  

This is a useful summary of ideas surrounding my 'green sea/green see' pun:

 

 

 

Green sea = green see

Priest in a driftwood shelter = greenseer 'hooked' up to the weirwood in the hollow hill

'Lord beneath the waves' = e.g. Lord Brynden aka Bloodraven and the singer collective hivemind of the weirnet

The rumble of the waves = the rustle of the leaves

The language of leviathan = the True Tongue

In this passage, you have the roots of a submerged tree in the river compared directly to a 'monster,' specifically a 'kraken'.  The tree even drowns a man.

Welcome, Ravenous Reader, Poetess of the Nennymoans.  You've put so much in here and everyone knows I struggle with symbolism.   I beg your indulgence because it takes time for things to click for me.  

Bran going through the Black Gate is a passage into slavery to the weirwoods?  I've read your post thrice now.   I understand the words but don't comprehend the meaning.  I assume this is the sum of past, present and future knowledge of Bran's story?  Or is it more interpretive?  Is his association with the weirwoods a bad thing?  

Are you saying that all these gods, Drowned, Old and R'hllor are perhaps the same entities?  That's a mind blower, but remember I just put Patchface together.   I can see it--it's so close.  Am I anywhere near grasping your meaning here? 

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10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This Trios mystery is a good one.  You mentioned Patchface, who we know was drowned and really expected to be dead--strictly a water death, that is--can you tie the Drowned god or the practice of Ironborn revival (which is known as the kiss of life IRL, sort of on the subject off the subject) to this?  Aeron has certainly been drowned.  I don't recall if Theon was when he went home or not.   

Now you've got me thinking about Patchface being a clever entertainer prior to dying.  His resurrection does seem to be much like Beric's even LSH's--where they are less in revival.  Wow, I never made the connection before.   Thanks for that!   

I'd say drowning the man is a kind of sympathetic magic ritual where the priest imitates the god; not unlike changing and sanctifying bread and wine in the Catholic ritual.

Patchface does come back missing some of his wits; but he has been given the gift of prophecy in replacement.

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'd say drowning the man is a kind of sympathetic magic ritual where the priest imitates the god; not unlike changing and sanctifying bread and wine in the Catholic ritual.

Patchface does come back missing some of his wits; but he has been given the gift of prophecy in replacement.

True about Patchface.   I needed the reminder--this is so NEW to me.   You do this to me every time, LynnS!  

I'm tying Patchface's revival to the red magic revivals we've already seen.   I mean there was no Drowned Priest to administer to him, so something else happened with this guy.   Should we be looking for new "gifts" in Beric or LSH?  (Hard as that is to even imagine)  Wait, maybe not!  Beric is able to light his sword aflame with his blood.  That's new.  Any idea what actually happened to bring Patchface back?  I have nothing for any new power LSH may have except maybe something to do with that Hound's helm Lem is wearing?   

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'd say drowning the man is a kind of sympathetic magic ritual where the priest imitates the god; not unlike changing and sanctifying bread and wine in the Catholic ritual.

Patchface does come back missing some of his wits; but he has been given the gift of prophecy in replacement.

Besides the red wedding has patchface predicted anything else?

I mean, people say he has the gift of profecy... But of all the profecies we know of patchface's are always the most giberish...

And I think you should link the drowning to catholic baptism. If you read a bit about it you will see it is almost similar to what they do in the iron islands. And you could say patch had some spiritual contact with the drowned god and it mudled his brain and gave him a conection to him that he uses to make profecies (or he was without air so much time that it caused brain problems)...

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On 1/20/2018 at 10:18 AM, Lady Dacey said:

In my headcanon all three of them are literally alive, while facing different manners of symbolic death.

Let's go one by one... starting with Jaime.

While Jon and Brienne are going through near-death (or truly deadly) situations, I believe Jaime is "safer" - he's had his symbolic death already (the unhanding, as @Lucius Lovejoy pointed out) and he has chosen to live, not without the invaluable help of the Moonmaid Brienne:

That was a turning point to Jaime, I believe. I see that Jaime is now in the place to return the favour to the maid of Tarth. We know from Kevin Jaime has been missing a while, but I believe he has either a) been kept a captive/sent on a mission by the BwB or b ) found a way to beguile them and scape together with Brienne. Where they're heading I can't begin to decipher, but I don't believe they're parting ways again, or that either of them has died. Which leads us to Brienne.

Brienne's arc through AFFC was one of misdirections and wrongways. While she got more and more lost in her search for Sansa, she also went deeper inside herself reflecting own how her experiences have made her guarded and untrusting. She's looking for "a maid of three-and-ten" she dubs her sister, and I believe she is also searching in her thoughts for the young maid she never was, but wishes she had been: 

She ultimatly rejects being helpless though - when she sees helpless Pod dying without lifting eyes. That's when she makes her choice to live - even if it means breaking her vows. She's meeting Jaime though, and I hope he can remind her honor isn't necessarily lost when you break a vow. I also hope he can prove himself worthy of her trust, and of course give her more reasons to enjoy living ;) (I'm a sucker for romance).   

I'm aligned with @Faera in thinking Jon will experience a dive into his consciousness like Bran did, a comatose experience that will last a while. I really don't like the idea of a fire-reanimated Jon - like @Julia H. I think Catelyn's story arc ended with her death, and I don't want to see a new character emerge from Jon like LSH emerged from Catelyn. I don't think GRRM has finished writing Jon's story, there is a lot of development to take place still, so Melissandre bringing him back from the dead doesn't make sense to me. People have proposed Val/Morna as possible witches to work an Old Gods related ressurection spell on Jon - I think this could work better in his arc, but I remain unconvinced. 

Character development is not the same as character change.  Jaime is the only one of those three who changed for the better.  I don't think Brienne changed at all.  Jon changed for the worse and betrayed his vows over a sister. 

This is really directed at the topic author.  I do not see the need for characters to have a change of attitude for the better and death is not the way to do it.  The only thing death does is make the person rot.  If anything, death makes the person worse when and if they come back.  If any of those three were to die, they should just remain dead.  Brienne is ok.  I don't like Jaime.  I don;t like Jon.  If there were to all die and one has to come back, let it be Brienne.  The men both deserve to die.  Brienne does not.  All in all, I would prefer none of them to come back from death. 

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17 minutes ago, divica said:

I mean, people say he has the gift of profecy... But of all the profecies we know of patchface's are always the most giberish.

Patchface and his riddles have been discussed a number of times on the forum.  You might check those threads if you have time to do a search. 

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