Has Theon become a better person?

[Lord Lannister]

Well Theon had identity issues well before Ramsay ever got his hands on him. I think his actions were an attempt to prove to himself he was something he wasn't. His journey of self discovery has been expensive and by no means does the end justify the means(be it Theon's actions -or- Ramsay's), but I think Theon's a person who did terrible things more than a terrible person.

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I would not say that Theon saved Jeyne merely for himself. What he did was extraordinarily brave, especially considering all his conditioned terrors. He saved a childhood friend, and someone being tortured by Ramsey. I don’t believe he was thinking “well I’ll risk death and torture so that I can regain my identity.”

Rather, I think Martin sets up contradictions like that one, so that it plays on your assumptions of who a hero is. I’ll bet Jeyne would think so.

Yes, I would also bet Theon is going to do something important for the battle of the dawn, although maybe I just hope so. (Shoot down a Nazgul?or an ice dragon? )He still has some digits left and he was a good archer. He knows how to get in and out of Winterfell. He knows about Arya. And for some reason Bran(who can see past and future) calls to him via weir wood. Who knows, though, he has Kings blood.

Well the alternative to not  going along with mance's plot is still torture and death. Ramsey is never going to relent and Theon knows that. 

[HoodedCrow]

Theon seemed like a morally average teenager with, yes, a lot of identity confusion. Rash and shortsighted as it was, leading the Iron born into Winterfell was also inventive and brave. But for Ramsey, he would have done something heroic to one side with a lot of Iron born cred. His mistake was not quitting while he was “ahead”, and believing victory naturally led to ruling. Hmmm, there are a lot of mistakes like that, in,say, Iraq or Germany in the past.

Bravery is doing something that scares you. Theon was extremely traumatized. Mind you he was quite an a$$, as a lad, but less so than Robert.

I think another idea in the book is that Wars make killers happen. The ethics of it depends on your point of view.

[Curled Finger]

Really good conversation.   Lots of interpretations here.  I'm in no way a student of the mind.   I don't know a lot about psych, but it's obvious that Theon is broken.  The saying is "what is dead can never die but rises stronger and harder".  Theon is neither Theon nor Reek, but this silly wraith like thing who seems to enjoy talking to himself.   That's not to take anything away from his internal dialogues, but he's not sane.  Bran has reached out to Arya and Jon in dreams.  Of course we get no mention of Rickon or Sansa but Theon believes a tree has spoken to remind him of his name.   I think we all think this is Bran.   Now Bran is a powerful little guy, capable of things we may not have even imagined yet.  Why Theon?  Proximity?  Arya is in Braavos so that's not a consideration.  Because Theon is broken, without mental defenses to ward off the sounds of voices in his head.   Apart from hearing his name, which does seem to have redirected Theon's path, Theon is overjoyed at the gods knowing him.    What if it wasn't Bran?  

[The Sunland Lord]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Really good conversation.   Lots of interpretations here.  I'm in no way a student of the mind.   I don't know a lot about psych, but it's obvious that Theon is broken.  The saying is "what is dead can never die but rises stronger and harder".  Theon is neither Theon nor Reek, but this silly wraith like thing who seems to enjoy talking to himself.   That's not to take anything away from his internal dialogues, but he's not sane.  Bran has reached out to Arya and Jon in dreams.  Of course we get no mention of Rickon or Sansa but Theon believes a tree has spoken to remind him of his name.   I think we all think this is Bran.   Now Bran is a powerful little guy, capable of things we may not have even imagined yet.  Why Theon?  Proximity?  Arya is in Braavos so that's not a consideration.  Because Theon is broken, without mental defenses to ward off the sounds of voices in his head.   Apart from hearing his name, which does seem to have redirected Theon's path, Theon is overjoyed at the gods knowing him.    What if it wasn't Bran?  

Bran-because Theon once saved his life. 

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Bran-because Theon once saved his life. 

Give me just a little more, Ser?   I want to understand. 

[The Sunland Lord]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Give me just a little more, Ser?   I want to understand. 

On your question-why would Bran contact Theon. 

 

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

On your question-why would Bran contact Theon. 

 

OK, I'm sorry--I made that much more difficult than you meant.   Thank you.  

[The Sunland Lord]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

OK, I'm sorry--I made that much more difficult than you meant.   Thank you.  

No need to apologize. You are too much courteous.

[Varysblackfyre321]

53 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Bran-because Theon once saved his life. 

He also led to the deaths of most of the people Bran had ever known and loved as well as the destruction of Bran's home. Even if having saved Bran's life I don't see Bran(at least in his increasing self-centered state), forgiving Theon for that.

[Lord Lannister]

Bloodraven told Bran it was easier to greensee through the weirwood faces at first. Theon was literally right before one during the scene where he heard his name whispered.

[The Sunland Lord]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He also led to the deaths of most of the people Bran had ever known and loved as well as the destruction of Bran's home. Even if having saved Bran's life I don't see Bran(at least in his increasing self-centered state), forgiving Theon for that.

It doesn't mean he has forgive him.

[Lord Lannister]

Forgiveness has nothing to do with it. If Bran was watching that wedding, Theon would've been the only one there he knew. Oh me might have recognized Roose or one of the other lords, but he's not going to try and speak with one of them.

[Curled Finger]

@Varysblackfyre321 & @Lord Lannister, I do think Theon is broken mentally.   I doubt we will ever see that arrogant carefree child again.  Let's be honest, Theon has been through some serious torture--remember the part about asking for his finger to be cut off rather than suffer the flaying?  His hair has even turned white--he's what? 21?  Now I was pretty angry with Theon for a very long time.  He's betrayed the Starks and the Ironborn now he's betrayed Ramsay.  His crimes are pretty terrible and committed why?  Because he did not understand who he is or as he likes to say, his name.  Jeyne Poole seems to have been roughly used by Ramsay and she's terrified.  Still it is Theon who takes the steps to get her away from Winterfell.   I'm not sure it was even a rescue, considering what's happened to both of them.   The "rescue" was set up by Mance and the spear wives.  All Theon really did was spirit Jeyne out of her room and off of a wall.  We know his thoughts.   He's terrified.  This is not Theon and this is not Reek.  

The turning point seems to really have been at the heart tree when Theon hears his name.  I listen to the books and when this happens Roy Dotrice makes his voice high and singsong like a child's.  If it's not an hallucination sure it could be Bran.   But why would Bran reach out to Theon of all people?   Perhaps Bran has transcended his anger and perhaps he calls to everyone and only the broken can hear him.  I'm not sure if Theon can be redeemed as I think Theon is probably never going to surface.   But this person who was Theon and later Reek may take on a new persona that could be useful and productive.  Theon did save Bran once.  The Prince of The Iron Islands forced Bran from his home.   Reek was captive if not in chains in that same home he shared with Bran.    (I'm sorry that was a LOT of words to get to this here little point I'm trying to make...)  Could it be that the original Theon we see living and laughing with Robb is a brother in Bran's mind despite all that's happened?  

[YOVMO]

On January 19, 2018 at 6:54 PM, HoodedCrow said:

I don’t believe he was thinking “well I’ll risk death and torture so that I can regain my identity.”

I would honestly be inclined to believe you here if death wasn't a risk for Theon. He has been begging for it for quite some time. The rescue of Jeyne is a win win for him. If he succeeds he regains some bit of his former self. If he fails he dies. 

[cpg2016]

On 1/19/2018 at 6:54 PM, HoodedCrow said:

I would not say that Theon saved Jeyne merely for himself. What he did was extraordinarily brave, especially considering all his conditioned terrors. He saved a childhood friend, and someone being tortured by Ramsey. I don’t believe he was thinking “well I’ll risk death and torture so that I can regain my identity.”

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but I couldn't disagree more.  We have zero indication that Theon was friends with Jeyne; his only "friend" in Winterfell is Robb.

What he was thinking was that being in Winterfell was bringing back his sense of self; he was becoming Theon again, instead of Reek.  And with that, he couldn't live as Ramsay's torture/sex slave anymore and resolved to escape or die trying.  That he helped Jeyne is somewhat heroic, but he does it in part because he sympathizes with her as a fellow torture victim, and because in large part, he himself is complicit in her situation.

I agree it requires courage, but courage and heroism are not the same thing.  Villains can be courageous too.  Any selfless motivations in saving Jeyne are ancillary to his primary desire to escape his situation, through true escape or death.

On 1/19/2018 at 6:54 PM, HoodedCrow said:

I’ll bet Jeyne would think so.

I hope not.  The spearwives and Mance take all the real risks and do all the work.  Theon is the person who legitimized her captivity, who collaborated with the Boltons to hand Jeyne over to this monster.  The extent of Theon's involvement is literally holding her hand and jumping.

On 1/19/2018 at 6:54 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Who knows, though, he has Kings blood.

He does not have king's blood.  Certainly Stannis will not think so, as he'll consider Balon a usurper and not a true king.  And the Greyjoys were never kings, as far as I can tell.

[Therae]

On 1/22/2018 at 8:55 AM, cpg2016 said:

He does not have king's blood.  Certainly Stannis will not think so, as he'll consider Balon a usurper and not a true king.  And the Greyjoys were never kings, as far as I can tell.

Some of Stannis' creepier men think Balon counts as a king where blood is concerned (in this case, they are referring to Asha, but if she's got king's blood, so does Theon). For purposes of infusing blood with magic kingness, apparently all that's really required is that you crown yourself; in so doing, even your pre-existing offspring retroactively inherit.

That was the moment Justin Massey chose to appear. "The king has other plans for his prize captive," he said, with his easy smile. His cheeks were red from the cold.
"The king? Or you?" Suggs snorted his contempt. "Scheme all you like, Massey. She'll still be for the fire, her and her king's blood. There's power in king's blood, the red woman used to say. Power to please our lord."
"Let R'hllor be content with the four we just sent him."

DwD - Asha 3/The Sacrifice

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 1/16/2018 at 0:24 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Reading his pov chapters (even as he regains his sense of identity), I never really get the feeling he's truly repentant for what he did at WF-as much he's sorrowful over having to deal with the consequences of them. 

Like, he thinks the killing of little Walder as an amusing thing, and says "they were just some Miller boys" he killed. 

Really juicy OP here again @Varysblackfyre321.  I really think of Theon's character as a cautionairy tale or warning to the reader... he is content to seek self-advancement without really identifying his own core values or beliefs.  I think it is less an identity issue an more an issue of casual ambition without a backbone, something I think is really prevalent in today's society.  With a lack of defined values, Theon is susceptible to being taken advantage of and further becoming a creature of others' interests or wants.  The consequences of this are horrifyingly amplified and played out, but I don't know if he really learned a lesson from his experience.  I expect him to be executed by Stannis without a chance for redemption or transformation.  Sadly, this is a reality for many - if people are not vigilant in determining their values and adhering to them they may find that their lives are wasted and without opportunity to correct them, or even knowing how to.  Time is short, do not waste it idly seeking self advancement and pleasure without introspectively determining purpose and values.

Of course I may be COMPLETELY OFF and it wouldn't surprise me.  He is an interesting character in that his actual role/importance is still so ambiguous and open to the reader.

On 1/17/2018 at 9:27 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well he is basically the Gollum of this story, isn't he. So the question is, how is Martin going to use him to help get the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom? My view is that he does something to help restore the Starks/or assist the rebirth of Azor Ahai. Something that will be crucial to winning the War for the Dawn.

Oh man this is a fun thought!

[Walda]

 

On 1/17/2018 at 10:16 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Everything was a joke to him before

Not quite:

Quote

He smiled a lot, as if the world were a secret joke that only he was clever enough to understand

(AGoT, Ch.37 Bran V)

And when you do a keyword search of his wry smile for the source of that secret joke, out it comes

Quote

 He smiled crookedly, wondering what his father would say when Theon told him that he, the last-born, babe and hostage, he had succeeded where Lord Balon himself had failed.

(ACoK, Ch.11 Theon I)

The joke behind Theon's smile is that he is destined to become the King of the Iron Isles and from there, of Casterley Rock,  and then

Quote

“It is my plan, not Robb’s,” Theon said proudly. Mine, as the victory will be mine, and in time the crown.

Theon smiles when he reminds himself that one day, all this will be his. That he will one day be King, sitting in the High Seat of Winterfell, with Ice laid bare across his lap, and the eyes of the world beseeching him in his iron-priced glory. 

~

On 1/18/2018 at 0:19 AM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

"Only a fool humbles himself when the world is full of people eager to do it for him."

(ACoK, Ch.24 Theon II)

As you point out, Theon is a fool. But I'd like to point out that Full-Strength Theon is as much a fool as Reek.  At the time he utters those words, he is his own sister's dupe - he has failed to recognise her true identity, or to detect any false note in her assumed identity (eg. the reaction of Wex, of the Ironborn who hailed her along the way, the dogs. He muses on this unlikely match for Sigard, who he had not known had married, and notices that she does not look like she is with child, yet continues on his merry way)

Also, Reek is a fool's role. The original Reek might have been more a counsellor or steward (although the drinking of the perfume recals a fool's antics), but Ramsay played Reek as a comic role, and Theon humbles himself when he plays Reek, as a survival strategy. He has found it safer to sleep with the dogs, than in the bed of the Lord of Winterfell. The cocky Lordling full of insatiable ambition, that imagines himself the Prince of Winterfell and the rightful claimant of the Seastone Chair, is the alter of the fawning thrall, and they are both the fool.

On 1/18/2018 at 0:27 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well he is basically the Gollum of this story, isn't he.

  Wow. I think you have nailed it.

He is gollum (and gollum is also a fool's role, the eternal dupe of those tricksey hobbitses, with the darkly comic chatter of his fractious personalities).
We see that in the very scene The Three Eyed Cow quotes from, where Theon's two identities quarrel with each other:

Quote

oh, gods, and I said … He groaned. He could not possibly have made a more appalling fool of himself.
No, he thought then. She was the one who made me a fool.

(ACoK, Ch.24 Theon II)

The naming of Theon by the heart tree (ADwD, Ch.46 A Ghost in Winterfell)

Spoiler

Winds of Winter

Spoiler

and by the raven in Theon's preview chapter

 

suggests that Bran will be the Ringbearer.

Hodor is Samwise Gamgee. Like Sam, he lugs the Ringbearer up Mount Doom, gets Frodo out alive, and was a ring-bearer himself, sort of.

I think in Hodor's case, that old sword of his is going to be used in a magical and non-killing way, that reveals he is the Last Hero. Just like Samwise, when he critically spares Gollom on the way up Mount Doom. Hopefully Hodor dies a hero at the climax, rather than returning to his former role like Sam does, because masters bum isn't going to wipe itself.

For the LotR analogy to ring true, Theon can't grow into a better person. He must rediscover his insatiable abition, his private joke, that one day he would be King on the Iron Throne (the only way of reconciling his duel ambition of sitting the Seastone Chair and the High Seat of Winterfell at the same time). He can't heal either - he must keep his fawning thrall persona, that he has possessed for as long as we have known him, the one that eagerly waited on Lord Stark's order to kill the direwolf puppy in chapter one of Game of Thrones.

There were places where it looked as if Gollum was growing, becoming a better person, but if he really had done, we would not have got our big Baradur-shaking climax. Theon has to stay divided and a fool, for this plot to work.