Varysblackfyre321

Can Essos survive without slavery? If so what would you propose to fix it after its radical transformation?

58 posts in this topic

Like can it recover from the economic turmoil that'd be brought about from having uprooted the system that its economy rests on? Will more people suffer more with the outright ban?  If so what should the new system be? Serfdom? 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Of course they can.  The slavers will suffer some major set-backs, but the slaves will thrive and prosper. 

Edited by White Ravens

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20 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes

Ok. What replaces it? Who will do the work no one really wants to do? How would you propose Daenarys heal this land if she were to suceed in banning the very thing that makes up its foundation? 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Before someone accuses me of supporting slavery I'll state I like any culturally modern human being do not support the practice of such an institution. But, I can't help but feel Dany's and Tyrion's time in slaver's bay and their actual dealings with this issue warrant such a question as both begin recognize the "good" consequences it has brought about for the society in general and how removing it may not just hurt a few greedy rich old men. Like, Tyrion's comments that a slave in Essos has it better than a regular free peasant or serf in Westeroes.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok. What replaces it? Who will do the work no one really wants to do? How would you propose Daenarys heal this land if she were to suceed in banning the very thing that makes up its foundation? 

First I just want to say that danny isn t trying to end slavery. She is trying to end slavery in meereen that was a major port for slavery. I don t know why millions of people say she is trying to end slavery when her entire arc is making peace with slavers! She even lets astapor burn...

And it is possible to end slavery. However it is needed to replace this economic activity with another economic activity that keeps the same people in power and that is as lucrative as slavery (taking into account the wages the master would need to pay their workers). Thankfully for danny tyrion has arrived in meereen and he might be a very good person to find alternative profitable activities for slavery.

ps However the most probable future for meereen is for it to be a doomed city. The armies outsider just throwed thousands of infected people into meereen, inside the city the climate is ripe for revolts, danny is going to bring dothriaki there, volantene armies are going to attack it, dragons are loose and danny will eventually leave meereen and take her dragons with her leaving the city defenseless... 

Meereen should be doomed...

Edited by divica

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok. What replaces it? Who will do the work no one really wants to do? How would you propose Daenarys heal this land if she were to suceed in banning the very thing that makes up its foundation? 

We don't really know who does what work, but slavery isn't the Free Cities' only economy:

Lorath: Salt cod, walrus tusk, sealskins, whale oil and a special kind of velvet.

Lys: They make many fine things that they sell, like fine wines, fruits, fine tapestries and the sea around them is filled with exotic fish ripe for fishing and selling. They also don't HAVE to give up their sex trade (though in my opinion, it would be for the best).

Myr: Is famous for their art and technology that is famous around the world. Most of the work is made by slaves, but that is not necessary, as the work can be done with just anyone.

Norvos: Different things, but they can expand their economy since they are right next to a (presumably) fish filled river and fertile lands.

Pentos: Not a slave city, but their servants are slaves in all but name. They deal in the trade, but they can expand their economy because they are right next to the sea (fishing) and are right next to the Flatlands (agriculture) and Velvet Hills (agriculture?).

Qohor: Known for trading and have the Forest of Qohor, which is filled if trees and exotic animals, which can be traded with too.

Tyrosh: Is an island ity right next to the sea, which allows for fishing. They are good forgers and have those sea-snails that they use to make dye.

Volantis: Are right next to the sea and the southern Rhoyne, which is ripe for fishing. They do other things and can do more.

The Free Cities have many oppertunities to get rid of the slave trade, but this is going to have a massive cost to everything.

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3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like can it recover from the economic turmoil that'd be brought about from having uprooted the system that its economy rests on? Will more people suffer more with the outright ban?  If so what should the new system be? Serfdom? 

The long night 2 will kill most of everyone. There will be plenty of space available for small agrarian societies to flourish for centuries to come before competition for resources leads to conquest 

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If your trying to end slavery in a place called Slaver's Bay it would seem you'd have your work cut out for you. I guess dragons and a massive army would help though.

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9 hours ago, divica said:

And it is possible to end slavery. However it is needed to replace this economic activity with another economic activity that keeps the same people in power and that is as lucrative as slavery (taking into account the wages the master would need to pay their workers).

Why in the world would you want to "keep the same people in power"? The same people who made their fortunes off of slavery? These are the folks you want to get rid of. So a slave broker totally loses his livelihood - time to learn another trade. So a slave-dependent business suddenly has to pay wages - maybe that business becomes a lot smaller, or breaks into competing businesses - or goes out of business. So a farm becomes too big to run, if the workers have to get paid - it should then break up into smaller units of ownership, including letting some of the former slaves get parts.

Remember, former slaves are not actually helpless children. To help them further, Daenerys could implement public education programs and even hire some into her "government."

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6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If your trying to end slavery in a place called Slaver's Bay

Well, that. So you rename it "The Bay of Dragons."

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11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok. What replaces it? Who will do the work no one really wants to do? How would you propose Daenarys heal this land if she were to suceed in banning the very thing that makes up its foundation? 

Other civilizations have ended slavery before. What did they do? I don't recall Russia, Brazil, or the US -- some of the last countries to make it illegal -- imploding on themselves.

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10 minutes ago, zandru said:

Why in the world would you want to "keep the same people in power"? The same people who made their fortunes off of slavery? These are the folks you want to get rid of. So a slave broker totally loses his livelihood - time to learn another trade. So a slave-dependent business suddenly has to pay wages - maybe that business becomes a lot smaller, or breaks into competing businesses - or goes out of business. So a farm becomes too big to run, if the workers have to get paid - it should then break up into smaller units of ownership, including letting some of the former slaves get parts.

Remember, former slaves are not actually helpless children. To help them further, Daenerys could implement public education programs and even hire some into her "government."

If a big farm isn t profitable then the same farm divided into smaller farms also isn t profitable.

And I would keep the same people in power because they are the owners of the land and structures and because of their houses history. A person can t simply change the entire culture of a place and want a peaceful transition. And wether you like them slavers have rights. We are talking about people that were raised in that culture. We can hardly blame a person that was thaught his entire life that slavery is good for being a slaver. So if you want to abolish slavery you have to give that person an alternative profession.

I think one of the problems with danny is that she sees slavers as the bad guys instead of guys that don t know they are doing a bad thing. For example, if a slaver had a clothes business and all his seamstresses were slaves that are now freed and decided to open their own business what is he supposed to do? And what if he spent Money to teach the seamstresses their craft? There is a similar situation in the book and danny simply ignores the rights of a slaver.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

If a big farm isn t profitable then the same farm divided into smaller farms also isn t profitable.

Not true. Multiple smaller farms can support families, provide food as well as opportunity for sales, provide a more varied set of crops, not just one big commodity. A self-owned farm can be more efficient, since the owner is the one working it for the benefit of his family, not unwilling masses of people who just want to escape.

1 hour ago, divica said:

And I would keep the same people in power because they are the owners of the land and structures and because of their houses history.

This is the "history" and ownership that you want to get rid of. Seriously.

1 hour ago, divica said:

I think one of the problems with danny is that she sees slavers as the bad guys instead of guys that don t know they are doing a bad thing.

Really? These people don't understand that it's not a good thing to beat their "property"? To abuse and torture? They are really good people who were just misled?

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't recall Russia, Brazil, or the US -- some of the last countries to make it illegal -- imploding on themselves.

The abolition of slavery failed in the United States. Failure to prosecute - and hang - Confederate leaders or even to blacklist them encouraged the guerilla tactics of remaining dead enders. After 20 some years, the US gave up on Reconstruction and allowed "Jim Crow", the virtual continuation of slavery, to persist. This situation has continued in the United States until the 1960s (!!!) and is still with us more than people want to admit. Can't speak to Russia and Brazil. I know slavery was abolished throughout Europe without that big a fuss, however.

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31 minutes ago, zandru said:

Not true. Multiple smaller farms can support families, provide food as well as opportunity for sales, provide a more varied set of crops, not just one big commodity. A self-owned farm can be more efficient, since the owner is the one working it for the benefit of his family, not unwilling masses of people who just want to escape.

Just because you assume people work more if they are working for themselves doesn t make it true. Obviously the slavers keep their slaves motivated to work for them... Otherwise they are punished.

Besides several people want to be slaves because they don t know what means to be free.

What you can say is that people do a better work if it is for them... However big farms are always more productive and cost eficient than smaller farms.

31 minutes ago, zandru said:

This is the "history" and ownership that you want to get rid of. Seriously.

So you think the history of the masters/slavers is just they are slavers? They never had to organize the defense of the city against dothriaki or valyrians? Never did anything good for the people? Dont have costumes that everybody likes? That all masters are bad people?

You are simply being prejudiced and over simplistic. The world isn t black and white... There are shades of grey

31 minutes ago, zandru said:

Really? These people don't understand that it's not a good thing to beat their "property"? To abuse and torture? They are really good people who were just misled?

If they were taught that the proper way to educate a slave is to beat them why would the majority of the slavers think it is wrong to beat slaves? Not everybody thinks outside the norms of their society!

Then not every slaver abuses and tortures their slaves. Hell, if you read danny chaps there are people that were better treated when they were slaves than now that they are free. Even the dude from qarth says that a free man begged him to buy him and make him his slave... 

You can t judge all slavers for the behaviour of some slavers...

 

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

The abolition of slavery failed in the United States. Failure to prosecute - and hang - Confederate leaders or even to blacklist them encouraged the guerilla tactics of remaining dead enders. After 20 some years, the US gave up on Reconstruction and allowed "Jim Crow", the virtual continuation of slavery, to persist. This situation has continued in the United States until the 1960s (!!!) and is still with us more than people want to admit. Can't speak to Russia and Brazil. I know slavery was abolished throughout Europe without that big a fuss, however.

Without getting into the politics of an ugly era, sharecropping and similar practices are not slavery but it is an option that Dany and the economies of slavers bay at their disposal

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Of course Essos will survive. In all honesty the Free Cities may take from some decades to a few generations to fix their economical system but in the end it will be from ok to better. In fact if we're looking at it from a certain perspective the non-slave owning lower class will probably have it better as there won't be a labour force that don't get any wages to compete with. instead these poor can start to compete for the work available when the slaves are liberated and all of them will need to be paid wages.

EDITED: Or at least that's my understanding of it.

Edited by LionoftheWest

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15 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Of course they can.  The slavers will suffer some major set-backs, but the slaves will thrive and prosper. 

Correct.  The slaves were doing all of the work.  Slaves were even teaching the children of their masters.  I say it will go through a very painful but unavoidable transition but will be so much better in the end.  

Those who are now free will need capital to build their businesses and take up trades.  The Iron Bank will get more business.  Wealth is not going away, it's just changing hands.  

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ok. What replaces it? Who will do the work no one really wants to do? How would you propose Daenarys heal this land if she were to suceed in banning the very thing that makes up its foundation? 

The economy isn't really based on slavery.  There is fishing, farming, shipping, mining, etc.  The only difference is, the masters answer to nobody and they get free labor out of their slaves.  It was a win-win for the masters.  They get to reap the benefits of their business and they don't have to pay their labor.  Ending slavery will stop that exploitation and the masters who survive and accept the moral changes will have to pay their labor.  Many who were slaves acquired valuable skills and trades.  Those will get to start their businesses and open their own shops.  They have the skills to market goods and services.  The Iron Bank will gladly loan capital.  The ones who have no skills, many of them former masters, will do the work that no one wants to do.  Hunger is a great motivator.  

Slavery is not the foundation of the economy.  Slavery is the source of free labor.  The money-making enterprises are still there but nobody gets free labor anymore.  

As far as healing, well, you're not going to heal the masters.  The masters were evil men who enjoyed wealth and privilege while exploiting the less-fortunate.  They enforced their will through murder and torture.  There is no healing those who refuse to accept the right way.  The masters will never again enjoy the easy wealthy and god-like existence that they enjoyed under slavery.  They will now have to put in an honest day's work and sweat for their bread.  I would love to witness this transition, actually.  What an eye-opening experience it will be to those masters when they have to actually do manual labor now.  Ending the slave trade should be celebrated because it is the greatest achievement ever on that planet.  It's a major step towards making that world a kinder, gentler place.  But it can't be done without lethal force.  Those who would continue to prop slaving and are working to bring back slavery are willing to kill.  You can't beat them without being just as brutal.  They're not going to give up unless forced to do so and even then they will hatch conspiracies one after another to bring slaving back.  It's best to hit them hard and don't just break their noses, break their necks.  

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2 hours ago, divica said:

 

Then not every slaver abuses and tortures their slaves. Hell, if you read danny chaps there are people that were better treated when they were slaves than now that they are free. Even the dude from qarth says that a free man begged him to buy him and make him his slave... 

You can t judge all slavers for the behaviour of some slavers...

To add on to this: remember, Tyrion having been made as a slave beaten, and near devoured for his master's pleasure-said generally the slaves were better off than the free peasants from peasants in Westeroes. Xaro,Xaro Daxos may have very well have been fabricated but his tale isn't one that had no basis in reilty; an educated slave would have had a far better life under their master than they would having been freed.

 

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17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like can it recover from the economic turmoil that'd be brought about from having uprooted the system that its economy rests on? Will more people suffer more with the outright ban?  If so what should the new system be? Serfdom? 

Are the two so different for those whose trade itself isn't slavery? Cities of Slaver's bay would fell into ruin since it is the source of their economy but it wouldn't effect free cities as badly. In fact, Braavos is able to survive without it and Pentos also, with no slave trade since they have lost to Braavos.

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