Can Essos survive without slavery? If so what would you propose to fix it after its radical transformation?

[divica]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Correct.  The slaves were doing all of the work.  Slaves were even teaching the children of their masters.  I say it will go through a very painful but unavoidable transition but will be so much better in the end.  

Those who are now free will need capital to build their businesses and take up trades.  The Iron Bank will get more business.  Wealth is not going away, it's just changing hands.  

The economy isn't really based on slavery.  There is fishing, farming, shipping, mining, etc.  The only difference is, the masters answer to nobody and they get free labor out of their slaves.  It was a win-win for the masters.  They get to reap the benefits of their business and they don't have to pay their labor.  Ending slavery will stop that exploitation and the masters who survive and accept the moral changes will have to pay their labor.  Many who were slaves acquired valuable skills and trades.  Those will get to start their businesses and open their own shops.  They have the skills to market goods and services.  The Iron Bank will gladly loan capital.  The ones who have no skills, many of them former masters, will do the work that no one wants to do.  Hunger is a great motivator.  

Slavery is not the foundation of the economy.  Slavery is the source of free labor.  The money-making enterprises are still there but nobody gets free labor anymore.  

As far as healing, well, you're not going to heal the masters.  The masters were evil men who enjoyed wealth and privilege while exploiting the less-fortunate.  They enforced their will through murder and torture.  There is no healing those who refuse to accept the right way.  The masters will never again enjoy the easy wealthy and god-like existence that they enjoyed under slavery.  They will now have to put in an honest day's work and sweat for their bread.  I would love to witness this transition, actually.  What an eye-opening experience it will be to those masters when they have to actually do manual labor now.  Ending the slave trade should be celebrated because it is the greatest achievement ever on that planet.  It's a major step towards making that world a kinder, gentler place.  But it can't be done without lethal force.  Those who would continue to prop slaving and are working to bring back slavery are willing to kill.  You can't beat them without being just as brutal.  They're not going to give up unless forced to do so and even then they will hatch conspiracies one after another to bring slaving back.  It's best to hit them hard and don't just break their noses, break their necks.  

There are several problems with what you wrote.

You assume that freed slaves will want to keep doing what they were doing when they were slaves, that most slaves know useful trades or that there will be Money to pay for the services that the ex slaves now provide. Besides the masters are probably the owners of most proprieties and ships in the cities.

And you can see with astapor what happened to a city ruled by slaves...

And you hate for the masters also doesn t make sense. They aren t evil men. They are men that were taught that slavery is the correct path and don t know anything else. They also have their rights! Whatever things they did before were accepted by the law so why should they be punished?

Finally you have to be careful to not make dany a tyrant in your opinion. Because the only way to end slavery in a short period of time is with a lot of brutality, power and inteligence...

 

[Kandrax]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Other civilizations have ended slavery before. What did they do? I don't recall Russia, Brazil, or the US -- some of the last countries to make it illegal -- imploding on themselves.

None of this country is barren like slaver's bay.

[zandru]

5 hours ago, divica said:

Just because you assume people work more if they are working for themselves doesn t make it true. Obviously the slavers keep their slaves motivated to work for them... Otherwise they are punished.

With all due respect, I think you're the one making unwarranted assumptions here. However, I'd like to refer you to Widowmaker 811's excellent respnse, which I think addresses your other objections. I'm a little worried that you feel such concern for the poor suffering slave owners that you'd insist on continuing the 'peculiar institution' from which only they derive any benefits.

[zandru]

33 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

None of this country is barren like slaver's bay.

You can hardly consider a port city with a great harbor to be 'barren." It would be a hub of trade. You don't have to farm to trade, or to trans-ship. We know there are vendors and artisans in Meereen etc, in spite of the "barren" soil. And, as far as food production goes, a bay can also be fished! (now there's a thought) The cities of the Bay of Dragons don't need slavery. Nobody does.

[Damon_Tor]

18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like can it recover from the economic turmoil that'd be brought about from having uprooted the system that its economy rests on? Will more people suffer more with the outright ban?  If so what should the new system be? Serfdom? 

Generally speaking, slavery isn't a very efficient system. Employers who are too concerned about the wellbeing of their employees (because they paid for them) are less likely to make risky innovations like those that made the industrial revolution possible. Ironically, the reason the northern states advanced industrially while the south stagnated was because the southern slaveholders were too invested in the safety of their workers. In the north if an employer lost a worker to a mining accident or factory mishap they just pick out a new one. A slaveholder has to buy a new one.

[divica]

41 minutes ago, zandru said:

With all due respect, I think you're the one making unwarranted assumptions here. However, I'd like to refer you to Widowmaker 811's excellent respnse, which I think addresses your other objections. I'm a little worried that you feel such concern for the poor suffering slave owners that you'd insist on continuing the 'peculiar institution' from which only they derive any benefits.

I didn t defend the continuation of slavery. I defended that in order to abolish slavery you need to introduce other economic activities that are as profitable as slavery or a diferente economic and legal sistem that takes into account the loss of slaves in production activities. And that people raised to be slavers that always behaved according to the law have their rights! You can t just decide they had an easy life so they lose everything and don t receive any compensation. That is simply wrong and biased.

And I answered to Widowmaker 811's post. It is highly biased and has at least some problems I wrote about.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Damon_Tor said:

the southern slaveholders were too invested in the safety of their workers

No. The southern slaveholders were heavily "invested" in security measures to make sure their slaves didn't run away, such as guards with guns and dogs, and even locking them up every night. This imposed significant costs. The frequent floggings, sometimes to death, and definitely to disfigurement and laming, aren't an example of "worker safety" concerns. This argument is really one of the most bizarre I've encountered - but don't take that personally.

In fact, slaves were generally required to grow and provide their own food, so that wasn't an "owner expense." When they had families, the offspring were confiscated and sold by the owners at will, even if they were the children of the owner (!!!) Slavery was so inefficient because the "labor force" got basically nothing for their work (except more work) and had to be constantly guarded from escape and from killing the owners. It wasn't "Gone with the Wind."

[zandru]

1 hour ago, divica said:

And that people raised to be slavers that always behaved according to the law have their rights! You can t just decide they had an easy life so they lose everything and don t receive any compensation. That is simply wrong and biased.

Well, I disagree. Slavers committed punishable offenses, by the new laws imposed by Daenerys. She doesn't care to "grandfather in" the past offenses. (Those who disagree can get their own dragons and "protest".) Consider: a man lives well for many years by embezzling from his job. After being found out and fired, should he be compensated so he can continue at the same economic level that his theft had placed him? Or should he be punished?

Moreover, you're placing the "rights" of criminals against humanity as more important than the rights of their victims.

[divica]

18 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, I disagree. Slavers committed punishable offenses, by the new laws imposed by Daenerys. She doesn't care to "grandfather in" the past offenses. (Those who disagree can get their own dragons and "protest".) Consider: a man lives well for many years by embezzling from his job. After being found out and fired, should he be compensated so he can continue at the same economic level that his theft had placed him? Or should he be punished?

Moreover, you're placing the "rights" of criminals against humanity as more important than the rights of their victims.

You didn t understand what I wrote. Your example about embezzling doesn t apply because embezzling is always a crime. You want to punish people that didn t comit crimes because at the time the law of meereen allowed people to have slaves.

A better example is if the vegans took over the world and forbid people from eating meat. Then the queen of the vegans is punishing the people that ate meat before she forbid it. Then you have people that raised animals to sell losing their business, restaurants that cook meat closing, people that prepare meat so that it can be sold losing their jobs, etc... So when these people go and ask for compensation because of their losses the queen of the vegans tells them that they are awful people and don t deserve anything. And they haven t eaten any meat since the queen forbid it!

I know this isn t a pretty example but it shows what is happening in meereen perfectly. 

And when you start saying that some people have more rights than others you are going into a very bad place. Like you support a cause so much that you start to overcompensate and instead of being opressed you become the opressor. To me this is one of the biggest problems of modern society... Justice is not retribution!

 

edit: Another good thing about the exemple is that slavers think it is natural to have slaves because they were raised to think like that. And most people think it is natural to eat meat because they were raised like that. So instead of saying that the slavers are awfull people you should say they were educated to be that way and if they are supposed to stop being slavers then they should have business alternatives.

Like the queen of the vegans would need to offer alternatives to meat if she wants people to stop eating meat!

[Angel Eyes]

21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Like can it recover from the economic turmoil that'd be brought about from having uprooted the system that its economy rests on? Will more people suffer more with the outright ban?  If so what should the new system be? Serfdom? 

Just ask Braavos.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, divica said:

You didn t understand what I wrote.

I think I did, but my argument wasn't very effective. Let's back off. It's clear from the books that Daenerys's approach to the conquest of Meereen worked short term, but wasn't stable. Part of it were reasons that you yourself cited: slavers who wanted to keep on slaving and would form guerrilla organizations to disrupt her rule, slave owners who didn't know what else to do, slaves who had difficulty setting up in business or getting hired because they weren't yet prepared to do so or lacked startup resources.

A more complete solution was called for, something that would be routine in the 20th century but unheard of (in more than one sense) in medieval times. The former slaves would need to be helped in their independence, by schooling and other assistance. It wasn't adequate to just give them leave to seize some of Master's property and then hope for the best. Rules would have to be specified and laid down, best done with some local input at least, about pay for work and basic working conditions. Emphasizing that these rules would apply to everybody, so nobody would get an unfair advantage would help their acceptance. Still, strong enforcement would be critical - not merely the military/police presence, but also auditing. Terrorism would have to be stopped and punished severely.

Slave owners presumably had some kind of industry which was worked by their slaves; now they'd have to pay for labor and maybe increase prices. So what if they have to sell off some of their treasures and property? Slave dealers would have to find other commodities to move. A salesman can sell literally anything, so an end of slavery wouldn't take away that ability.

See, this takes care of both the enslaved and the perps, and would be basically what I would recommend, were I Dany's 'hand'. What she ended up doing was trying to run Meereen with an inadequate military force, a vague set of rules, and too much ineffectual reaction instead of "pro-action".

[Ralphis Baratheon]

11 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, that. So you rename it "The Bay of Dragons."

'Tis a silly name, "Freeman's Bay" or something like that would be better. IF slavery ends there, it will be filled with free people, not dragons.

[divica]

9 minutes ago, zandru said:

I think I did, but my argument wasn't very effective. Let's back off. It's clear from the books that Daenerys's approach to the conquest of Meereen worked short term, but wasn't stable. Part of it were reasons that you yourself cited: slavers who wanted to keep on slaving and would form guerrilla organizations to disrupt her rule, slave owners who didn't know what else to do, slaves who had difficulty setting up in business or getting hired because they weren't yet prepared to do so or lacked startup resources.

A more complete solution was called for, something that would be routine in the 20th century but unheard of (in more than one sense) in medieval times. The former slaves would need to be helped in their independence, by schooling and other assistance. It wasn't adequate to just give them leave to seize some of Master's property and then hope for the best. Rules would have to be specified and laid down, best done with some local input at least, about pay for work and basic working conditions. Emphasizing that these rules would apply to everybody, so nobody would get an unfair advantage would help their acceptance. Still, strong enforcement would be critical - not merely the military/police presence, but also auditing. Terrorism would have to be stopped and punished severely.

Slave owners presumably had some kind of industry which was worked by their slaves; now they'd have to pay for labor and maybe increase prices. So what if they have to sell off some of their treasures and property? Slave dealers would have to find other commodities to move. A salesman can sell literally anything, so an end of slavery wouldn't take away that ability.

See, this takes care of both the enslaved and the perps, and would be basically what I would recommend, were I Dany's 'hand'. What she ended up doing was trying to run Meereen with an inadequate military force, a vague set of rules, and too much ineffectual reaction instead of "pro-action".

Yeah, now I agree with you. This post is more or less my point of view.

Danny was too nice to everybody, too ready to put her dragons away and didn t have some advisor that could help deal with the problems you said. However with tyrion if danny returns more willing to take brutal actions she might put whatever is left of meereen in order.

On the other hand, if she is going to westeros pretty soon I would say that when she is gone some slavers are going to raise armies to take over meereen again if it still exists. My personal hope is that dany takes all freeman with her and burns meereen to end that storyline.

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

None of this country is barren like slaver's bay.

Olive groves were all around Mereen and there are farms for days rides outside of it.

[zandru]

11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

'Tis a silly name, "Freeman's Bay" or something like that would be better. IF slavery ends there, it will be filled with free people, not dragons.

Well, I'm not wedded to "Bay of Dragons." And you're right, "Freedman's Bay" has a nice ring to it.

[The Commentator]

22 hours ago, divica said:

There are several problems with what you wrote.

You assume that freed slaves will want to keep doing what they were doing when they were slaves, that most slaves know useful trades or that there will be Money to pay for the services that the ex slaves now provide. Besides the masters are probably the owners of most proprieties and ships in the cities.

And you can see with astapor what happened to a city ruled by slaves...

And you hate for the masters also doesn t make sense. They aren t evil men. They are men that were taught that slavery is the correct path and don t know anything else. They also have their rights! Whatever things they did before were accepted by the law so why should they be punished?

Finally you have to be careful to not make dany a tyrant in your opinion. Because the only way to end slavery in a short period of time is with a lot of brutality, power and inteligence...

 

There is little point in this discussion with you because you do not believe that slavery is inherently evil.  If those people were so ignorant and so bereft of basic human compassion then they deserved to get destroyed.  If they were brought up totally lacking compassion for the weak and they have practiced exploitation of the weak and oppressed the weak for so long, then they deserved to perish.  Most criminals can be reformed, but they have to choose to change.  You cannot do the same with a masters who has been raised to know no other way but enslaving, oppressing, and exploiting weaker humans, when those masters refuse to change.  Basically, you give them a choice.  Accept change.  Those who do not can leave the Bay of Dragons and practice their craft somewhere else.  But they cannot choose to promote slavery and stay.  Those who fight against freedom will have to die.  

And rights.  Well, you know, those masters have been taking rights away from other people for thousand of years, robbing them of life, freedom, happiness, and dignity.  It's a lot different when the tables have turned.  We like to think everybody can be reformed.  For the most part, Dany gave them a chance to reform.  They can accept a free society or they can pack up and go somewhere else.  What they cannot do is fight freedom.  

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 1/18/2018 at 2:53 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Correct.  The slaves were doing all of the work.  Slaves were even teaching the children of their masters.  I say it will go through a very painful but unavoidable transition but will be so much better in the end.  

Those who are now free will need capital to build their businesses and take up trades.  The Iron Bank will get more business.  Wealth is not going away, it's just changing hands.  

The economy isn't really based on slavery.  There is fishing, farming, shipping, mining, etc.  The only difference is, the masters answer to nobody and they get free labor out of their slaves.  It was a win-win for the masters.  They get to reap the benefits of their business and they don't have to pay their labor.  Ending slavery will stop that exploitation and the masters who survive and accept the moral changes will have to pay their labor.  Many who were slaves acquired valuable skills and trades.  Those will get to start their businesses and open their own shops.  They have the skills to market goods and services.  The Iron Bank will gladly loan capital.  The ones who have no skills, many of them former masters, will do the work that no one wants to do.  Hunger is a great motivator.  

Slavery is not the foundation of the economy.  Slavery is the source of free labor.  The money-making enterprises are still there but nobody gets free labor anymore.  

As far as healing, well, you're not going to heal the masters.  The masters were evil men who enjoyed wealth and privilege while exploiting the less-fortunate.  They enforced their will through murder and torture.  There is no healing those who refuse to accept the right way.  The masters will never again enjoy the easy wealthy and god-like existence that they enjoyed under slavery.  They will now have to put in an honest day's work and sweat for their bread.  I would love to witness this transition, actually.  What an eye-opening experience it will be to those masters when they have to actually do manual labor now.  Ending the slave trade should be celebrated because it is the greatest achievement ever on that planet.  It's a major step towards making that world a kinder, gentler place.  But it can't be done without lethal force.  Those who would continue to prop slaving and are working to bring back slavery are willing to kill.  You can't beat them without being just as brutal.  They're not going to give up unless forced to do so and even then they will hatch conspiracies one after another to bring slaving back.  It's best to hit them hard and don't just break their noses, break their necks.  

Yes the slaves were the uncompensated labor force.  The region will struggle for a while but will survive and grow stronger for it.  An economy where people are paid for their work will encourage innovation and initiative.  Those cities were falling apart.  The bricks were deteriorating because the master class were living in the past and were basically a drag on the economy. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

21 hours ago, zandru said:

I think I did, but my argument wasn't very effective. Let's back off. It's clear from the books that Daenerys's approach to the conquest of Meereen worked short term, but wasn't stable. Part of it were reasons that you yourself cited: slavers who wanted to keep on slaving and would form guerrilla organizations to disrupt her rule, slave owners who didn't know what else to do, slaves who had difficulty setting up in business or getting hired because they weren't yet prepared to do so or lacked startup resources.

A more complete solution was called for, something that would be routine in the 20th century but unheard of (in more than one sense) in medieval times. The former slaves would need to be helped in their independence, by schooling and other assistance. It wasn't adequate to just give them leave to seize some of Master's property and then hope for the best. Rules would have to be specified and laid down, best done with some local input at least, about pay for work and basic working conditions. Emphasizing that these rules would apply to everybody, so nobody would get an unfair advantage would help their acceptance. Still, strong enforcement would be critical - not merely the military/police presence, but also auditing. Terrorism would have to be stopped and punished severely.

Slave owners presumably had some kind of industry which was worked by their slaves; now they'd have to pay for labor and maybe increase prices. So what if they have to sell off some of their treasures and property? Slave dealers would have to find other commodities to move. A salesman can sell literally anything, so an end of slavery wouldn't take away that ability.

See, this takes care of both the enslaved and the perps, and would be basically what I would recommend, were I Dany's 'hand'. What she ended up doing was trying to run Meereen with an inadequate military force, a vague set of rules, and too much ineffectual reaction instead of "pro-action".

The war will have to be won first.  I do not mean win by a technicality.  Most certainly not a stalemate.  To end something as strongly entrenched as slavery, the liberator must win convincingly and completely so that any remaining part of the "master classes" will not dare to oppose the liberator.  The only problem that I can see is the war is still ongoing.  The harpy is still alive and kicking and killing.  Daenerys' forces won by a technicality and attempted to work out a compromise with the masters.  She should have taken the masters' ill-gotten wealth and used it to help rebuild the bay area.

It is too early to judge the liberation of the bay.  The war is still being fought.  It has not really abated.  Nothing like this has ever been done before so I am actually very impressed that the situation is as good as it is.  Daenerys has cut one of the legs off of the slave trade and that blow is being felt across the entire continent, so that in itself is a great accomplishment and a victory for our young heroine.  The fact that the slaves in Volantis are waiting for Daenerys is a good sign of hope and inspiration. 

Educating the slaves is too far advanced for those times.  Consider that many within the noble class in Westeros can't read and I think you expect a lot to educate first-generation free people.  Fans are unfairly impatient.  It will take a long time to dismantle something as deeply entrenched as slavery.  I don't think anyone, certainly not any of the major characters, other than Daenerys can do something this epic and this grand. 

Proaction?  There is no historical precedent for social change of this magnitude.  It is unrealistic to expect a proactive approach.  There is a lot of untested methods that will have to be tried.  Stay the course, work through the issues.  Some solutions will work and some will not.  But continue to move forward.  If you were afflicted with a serious disease, you don't wait until an experimental drug has been proven 100% safe.  You will take a chance in the hopes of curing your terminal illness.  Slavery is a terminal illness for the enslaved.  Waiting and waiting for the perfect answer is stupid.  Each day of waiting means many thousands will die horribly, many more tortured, raped, and forced to labor.  Waiting is not the answer.  The answer is to move forward and continue the process of liberation. 

I am not against making peace with the "master class" as long as they accept the ending of the slave trade and the freedom of the people.  It's hard to say its wrong to give peace a chance.  Give the masters a chance to accept the moral path.  I don't think many will but at least they were given a chance.  There is no excuse to those afterwards and none of them can be given any benefit of the doubt any more. 

Oh yes, I know you can tell, I am a big fan of the Mother of Dragons!  May She Live Forever!

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 1/18/2018 at 5:23 PM, divica said:

And you hate for the masters also doesn t make sense. They aren t evil men. They are men that were taught that slavery is the correct path and don t know anything else. They also have their rights! Whatever things they did before were accepted by the law so why should they be punished?

Daenerys made slavery illegal.  Whatever laws were legal in the past that gave them the right to do that to slaves were made illegal.  A conqueror has the right to apply those changes.  Aegon Targaryen was not in the line of succession, nor was there even a united kingdom of Westeros.  Yet he took it and built the kingdom, chose to keep some laws and outlaw others.  

I believe Martin wants to confront his readers with what I call "uncomfortable truths."  One of those is confronting history - what we were taught and what we were taught to believe in.  Just because many people who accomplished worthwhile things in the past did so does not mean they were not evil men.  To be specific, owning slaves is an act of evil and just because the person did good things in their life does not make that sin go away.  Good deeds by a slave owner does not make the sin of what he did to take away the freedom of another man go away.  A person who messed up one time but is otherwise a very good person is harder to judge.  But the act of owning a slave is not a one-time act of badness.  It is something they do every day, a sin they commit against humanity each day they live, every time they profit off their slaves.  You might say it is a highly immoral and unethical act being perpetrated every minute of every day by those who owned slaves. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

53 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Just because many people who accomplished worthwhile things in the past did so does not mean they were not evil men. 

Just because they committed an action that has been recognized(rightfully so) as being totally immoral  in an entire culture in time where there's no stigma attached to it does not necessarily all indivual in that community who practice it  are simply flat out "evil".