We need to talk about Cuba

[baxus]

2 hours ago, Mikael said:

Sorry, but I'm not the right guy for this, I'm neither a US apologist nor very knowledgeable. I'm merely a horrified bystander of the car-wreck that's US democracy.

Ok, sorry then. I must have misunderstood something. My brain is far from 100% capacity today.  

[GAROVORKIN]

When Raul Castro passes from the scene , things will change. Cuba will open up big and in the end will become a democracy.  

[baxus]

From personal experience, switching from "dictatorship" to "democracy" doesn't change things all that much. Or at least not that quickly.

[GAROVORKIN]

12 minutes ago, baxus said:

From personal experience, switching from "dictatorship" to "democracy" doesn't change things all that much. Or at least not that quickly.

It will take a bit of time and there will probably be few false starts. But Cuba will get there . 

[maarsen]

Comparing Cuba to the US reminds me of a quote from Churchill. A woman once told him he was drunk. He replied that she was ugly. The difference was that when he woke up he would be sober. One day Cuba will be awake.

[Ran]

The dire picture of Cuba of hardline ex-pats (i.e. many of my older family members) is wrong. The rosy picture of Cuba touted by the Cuban  government itself (I encounter this directly, on occasion, thanks to a relative of mine who is affiliated with one of the official mouthpieces of the Cuban government) and embraced by idealists the world over is also wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I've grown wary of citing statistics provided by the Cuban government, as analysis has shown that in at least the case of child mortality rates the numbers are definitely fudged while popular figures like doctors per capita misses the fact that the vast majority of graduates have a level of education more equivalent to nursing majors in other countries (Cuban doctors in other countries often fail certification or re-certification examinations at astounding rates once they are supposed to match the training expected in those countries.)

For those with Netflix, I recommend Cuba and the Camerman which looks at life in Cuba over four decades through the camera of Joe Alpert, who was and is sympathetic to the Cuban regime but was clear-eyed to see and show the flaws. There's also the Cuba Libre Story, an interesting multi-part documentary covering the history of Cuba with a distinct leftist slant (it's European) but is illuminating in many respects.

 

[polishgenius]

21 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

How many third world countries are there that are "democratic" AND aim to guarantee the survival of every single citizen?

Possibly none (but Cuba is by neither major usage of the phrase a third world nation so I'm not sure if that's too relevant). In any case, I'm not of the opinion that because it isn't being done right that means it can never be done right and we should just give up.

But just for example at a very broad level here is a quick twitter thread someone made a few days ago about the strides in education, health, and general life quality in Africa. Those countries aren't anywhere near flawless but they're clearly aiming to improve their care.



To be clear, what I'm definitely not saying is that we need direct outside interference to change Cuba. That won't work. It needs to come from them. But it'll take the regime relaxing their stances. And yeah, that'll definitely need America to not be such dicks (I think Obama had somewhat of the right idea in seeking to have more normal relations with both Cuba and Iran, on the basis that it's harder to envoke a siege mentality when you're not under siege, and people are more likely to demand and aquiesce to change if they're not feeling a big scary looming threat).

33 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Was communism perfect? No, in fact many of its aspects were horrible. Was it preferable to the previous regime (a royalist autocracy which gave zero shits for 95% of the population)? Yes. Is it preferable to the current government (a kleptocracy with 25% unemployment where "upward mobility" means emigrating to Germany to become a janitor)?

All of these are fair arguments, but again I'll point back to that I'm not arguing that Cuba is the worst of the worst. Just that just because other ways and places are worse, or not hugely better, doesn't mean we should excuse Cuba's failings. 'Castro was okay becaus Obama was friends with Saudi Arabia' is not a valid argument in my opinion, and nor is the idea that we should accept police states because some post-communist democracies have failed.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think a major issue revealed here is that those who make positive statements about Cuba or defend it from the "special kind of evil" bullshit are being accused of whitewashing Cuba's problems away or viewing it with too rosy of lenses.  As though saying that Cuba isn't a special kind of evil or that there actually are some very good positives about the country is the same as saying there are zero problems.  No one's saying that.

 

[GAROVORKIN]

45 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Comparing Cuba to the US reminds me of a quote from Churchill. A woman once told him he was drunk. He replied that she was ugly. The difference was that when he woke up he would be sober. One day Cuba will be awake.

 

Brilliant ! 

[Zorral]

13 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

People I know who have tried to talk to me about Cuba tend to focus on the capitalism thing.  It's almost amusing.  "But their stuff is really  old!  They have old cars!  They have old rum factories!  They don't even have cell phones!  The horrors!"  As though capitalism and consumerism are the default settings we should all strive for.  I point out that Cubans enjoy one of the highest literacy rates in the world, some of the greatest health and education standards, they have low infant and maternal mortality rates, see fewer deaths as a result of hurricanes and can recover from the damage quickly and so on etc.  "But, but, they are horrible because there's no internet."

 

They certainly do have cell phones!  And soon those phones will connect to the internet -- right now that isn't case, but it will be soon.  In the meantime Cubans are as busy taking photos with their phones and sending them to their friends and families as anywhere else.

Also wifi connection is free in certain places in every ville and city, such as the city plazas and parks.  Which means, speaking from first hand witness, that people are still interacting f2f with each other.  They are not immersed in a screen in a room somewhere all by themselves.  It's just brilliant, that in Cuba, this thing as a solitary activity, that separated individuals from communities as in in the US, in Cuba is part of being within the community. 

And a whole lot of business is being done via the internet, particularly for rentals for tourists -- Caba's Casas Particulares were in effect looooooooooooooong before Air B&B was a thought in the US.

But business of all kinds is buzzing.  When I first went to Cuba, in cities like Matanzas or Cienfuegos, people just hung out, waiting for something to happen.  Now everybody is busy working, doing deals, etc.  Not with the US, of course, but internally, with South America, Asia, and -- alas, Russia again. Not only has this regime cut US agriculture etc. out again from business in Cuba, this US regime has also handed Cuba over to Putin.  The Russians were basically all gone from Cuba between 1991 - 2016.  Now they're back with a vengeance -- Cuba has a big debt to Russia since Venezuela crashed. Russia provides Cuba its oil now. 

Everything would be so much cheaper that they now need to import from Vietnam, China, Russia, if they could import it it from the US and Mexico -- but that damned embargo.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

In theory, yes. But in reality? I'm not so sure.
How many third world countries are there that are "democratic" AND aim to guarantee the survival of every single citizen?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend police states. But it seems to me that before saying one has to be gotten rid of, one should be certain that it can propose better for the people in question.

Looking at the world I don't think we have anything better to propose to Cuba. For sure, it is desirable that the regime become more liberal and more democratic. But unless we can be certain that outside intervention leads to a net improvement of the Cubans' living conditions I don't think outside criticism of the regime has any value.

Also, as an aside, I've met some people from Russia or Eastern Europe who didn't think the trade-off between economic safety and individual liberty was worth it.
I know I tend to think it isn't, because I believe the first responsibility of a regime is to provide for the survival of its citizens ; you can't eat freedom.

The US doesn't and isn't democratic either.  At least not now, and for quite a long damned time . . . .

But I KNOW that Cubans generally are a much happier people than the USIans are generally.

[Zorral]

Speaking as a USian, it seems far more important that WE focus on our own nation's failings, which are countless right now, and try to remedy them, than arrogantly tell Cuba what to do.  Cuba can take of herself, thank you.  She has managed to -- muchas gracias, La Virgen de la Caridad del Cobre -- all this time.  The US hasn't ever provided her anything of value, only exploitation and oppression. The more one studies Cuban history, particularly from the 19th century on, the more obvious this is.

[Dr. Pepper]

38 minutes ago, Zorral said:

They certainly do have cell phones!  And soon those phones will connect to the internet -- right now that isn't case, but it will be soon.  In the meantime Cubans are as busy taking photos with their phones and sending them to their friends and families as anywhere else.

Also wifi connection is free in certain places in every ville and city, such as the city plazas and parks.  Which means, speaking from first hand witness, that people are still interacting f2f with each other.  They are not immersed in a screen in a room somewhere all by themselves.  It's just brilliant, that in Cuba, this thing as a solitary activity, that separated individuals from communities as in in the US, in Cuba is part of being within the community. 

And a whole lot of business is being done via the internet, particularly for rentals for tourists -- Caba's Casas Particulares were in effect looooooooooooooong before Air B&B was a thought in the US.

But business of all kinds is buzzing.  When I first went to Cuba, in cities like Matanzas or Cienfuegos, people just hung out, waiting for something to happen.  Now everybody is busy working, doing deals, etc.  Not with the US, of course, but internally, with South America, Asia, and -- alas, Russia again. Not only has this regime cut US agriculture etc. out again from business in Cuba, this US regime has also handed Cuba over to Putin.  The Russians were basically all gone from Cuba between 1991 - 2016.  Now they're back with a vengeance -- Cuba has a big debt to Russia since Venezuela crashed. Russia provides Cuba its oil now. 

Everything would be so much cheaper that they now need to import from Vietnam, China, Russia, if they could import it it from the US and Mexico -- but that damned embargo.

I'm not sure that I would consider much of this to automatically be a positive.  I do think it's probably a good thing that opening up to tech is happening very slow as it could make the culture of tech and internet and social media very different in Cuba than it is in the rest of the world and I think that's a good things.  I also don't think I would consider booming business to be a net positive.  I don't think capitalism is good. 

Of course I recognize that I'm saying this as someone who is sitting on a comfortable brand new couch with my macbook and my internet addiction, none of which I'm jumping on giving up anytime soon.  

[Zorral]

The internet and social media usage is already very different in Cuba than it is in the US.  It's also very different in Mexico than it is in the US.  For one example the best gifts one give people right now are thumb drives and hard drives -- and that includes those in academia for their research and books, such as historians, to the average abuela.  Television and all sorts of media from outside of Cuba, and from inside too, are distributed via thumb drives. Cubans who love GOT get the latest episode within hours via their network of guys who do this for a small fee, every Monday of the week.  The user tells their guy which shows they like, which artists, etc., and they get them.  Academics get journals and so on this way too.

Don't forget that the reason Cuba is so far behind in internet resources is that the US demanded that Cuba be left out of the fiber optic cable grid when it was being put down.  Satellite is starting to help change this.

People even in this subject keep posting as though Cuba is what it was in the 1970's and 1980's, and that they are waiting for change to come.  Cuba's been changing rapidly for decades, going from a period in which nobody had money, everyone was the same -- money was meaningless -- to the special period when everyone hustled desperately just to find anything to eat, even if they happened to have US dollars -- to now with a regulated loosening of private resources and businesses.

So I always laugh when  people solemnly inform me that "I am going to go to Cuba now, before it changes."  Changes from when?  

The state keeps a very close control over private enterprise, while also supporting it.  Which means a lot of people aren't making as much profit as they could if the state didn't keep anywhere from 30 to 50% of it for the state, or even crack down, on how much profit can be made.  Good?  Bad? It's how things are done right now.  But what I will say, as someone who hasn't a lot of good  to say about capitalism per se, as it is built to be extractive and exploitative and a constant expansion -- US slavery was the perfection of a form of capitalism, as is the drug trade -- I will say no culture ever has or is able to get along without business, i.e. trade.  Cuban villes and cities that sat stagnant in 1990, bustling now, with new paint, renovation, people busy with work is a much improved Cuba now.

BUT! -- and this is a huge but -- people who were ahead are now getting farther ahead and those who were behind are getting further behind.  The tourist industry is racist, because so many of the tourists are racists and don't want dark faces -- or so Cuban tourist agencies think.  So white people get the vast majority of the perks and tips that come from working in the industry.  People who had good houses to start with, that they could rent out to visitors, are getting far far ahead of those who don't -- and those with those houses were already further ahead in the Cuban society due to skin color, inheritance and education.  They went with the Revolution and are so were able to keep their family mansions.  On and on.  So again, it is generally the people of color, who had the least to start with, who are still left behind.  Where have we read this story before . . . .

The government is well aware of this and seems as flummoxed as, say, the US government, to remedy this inequality built into the country at all levels from the beginning, in the 16th century.

OTOH, like our own Cuban familia, there are indeed many people of color for whom the Revolution was their making and they are the best products of the revolution and the communist ideals one can ever know.  They came literally from the fields of Pinar del Rio.  Their children and grandchildren and now starting great-grand-children generations have risen higher with every generation.  It was education and merit that has provided them their rise.  That used to work in this country too, for a while, particularly between WWII and the 1970's, but not much now.

 

[felice]

3 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

People might point out that the issue there is capitalism and not democracy, and there have been many think tanks who have tried to figure out if you can have democracy without capitalism.  The answer seems to be no, that some form of capitalism must exist in order for democracy to continue.

What think tanks are those? It seems more likely to me that it's the other way round - democracy can't continue under capitalism, since it inherently concentrates wealth and power into a small elite who have the means and motivation to subvert democracy to advance their own interests. I guess "continue" is the key word? If you're talking about eliminating capitalism in an existing pseudo-democratic capitalist state, while simultaneously strengthening democracy, then yes, that's a very challenging goal. But if you had an existing non-capitalist democracy that was peaceful, prosperous, and not threatened by its neighbours, I don't see any reason it shouldn't be stable long-term. The tricky part is getting to that status in the first place.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

People even in this subject keep posting as though Cuba is what it was in the 1970's and 1980's, and that they are waiting for change to come.  Cuba's been changing rapidly for decades,

This is fair enough. Some points well made.
That said, while your experience of Cuba is vastly more than mine, which is nonexistent, I've read accounts from others who have similar experience to you - working often in the country or spending time there- and who do love the place but who have a far less positive view of the government/regime. The impression from them is that while Cubans might indeed be among the happiest people in the world, it's despite the regime not because of it.
So while I defer to your experience, I think it's worth noting for the purposes of this thread that those experiences do differ.

Also:
 

Quote

The government is well aware of this and seems as flummoxed as, say, the US government, to remedy this inequality built into the country at all levels from the beginning, in the 16th century.

I mean the whole point of communism is to remedy this sort of inequality, so if people who 'went with the revolution' got to keep their stuff and are now recreating the gap now that communism is loosening... well that suggests the government isn't flummoxed, they just weren't completely honest to the ideals of the revolution while it was going and during the intervening years, doesn't it? Not so much the racism aspect, which is indeed a harder deeper fix, but the wealth inequality of people with nice houses having built-in advantages... that's simply a failure of the revolution.

[felice]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

The impression from them is that while Cubans might indeed be among the happiest people in the world, it's despite the regime not because of it.

I suspect it's more complicated than that. People there are happy despite the bad things the government does, but also because of the good things it does. I very much doubt they're genetically happier; ex-Cubans in Florida don't seem to be especially happy as far as I'm aware. And I doubt they'd stay very happy if the government entirely vanished overnight and left them in a state of anarchy. There's certainly room for improvement, but I think that's true of every country.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

This is fair enough. Some points well made.
That said, while your experience of Cuba is vastly more than mine, which is nonexistent, I've read accounts from others who have similar experience to you - working often in the country or spending time there- and who do love the place but who have a far less positive view of the government/regime. The impression from them is that while Cubans might indeed be among the happiest people in the world, it's despite the regime not because of it.
So while I defer to your experience, I think it's worth noting for the purposes of this thread that those experiences do differ.

Also:
 

I mean the whole point of communism is to remedy this sort of inequality, so if people who 'went with the revolution' got to keep their stuff and are now recreating the gap now that communism is loosening... well that suggests the government isn't flummoxed, they just weren't completely honest to the ideals of the revolution while it was going and during the intervening years, doesn't it? Not so much the racism aspect, which is indeed a harder deeper fix, but the wealth inequality of people with nice houses having built-in advantages... that's simply a failure of the revolution.

You forget -- the Revolution didn't start as a communist revolution.  It went there, and to the Soviet Union because the US mafia, United Fruit Co., etc. put such pressure on the US to NOT recognize the Revolution after Batista flew off with millions of dollars in his trousers.

You miss a whole lot between 'revolution' and keeping stuff.  They didn't get to keep a sugar factory, merely a house, and they shared that house, generally, with other members of their family.  Most of those mansions became public institutions or government offices, or homes for diplomats from other countries and even embassies. Other of these houses were awarded members of the Revolution who had done spectacular things -- very dark skinned members of the Revolution -- who have made these homes for vast, extended families (I live in one of these when in Havana).  Others married into camposino families, etc.

But writing anything here when it is all deep and complicated history is kind of a waste of time, right?

I mean I am not going to write in this topic a history of Cuba from Loma de Chivo a/k/a San Juan Hill to 2018, which is what I'd have to do -- and which I know pretty darned well. Nobody would read or wants to know anyway, since they haven't done so on their own so far, but that isn't stopping anyone from announcing and pronouncing about Cuba either.

Nor do they know Spanish, history, Cubans, have never been there, or if so, decades ago, only once. It's kinda frustrating, you know?  Time for a glass of wine, one might think.

[Zorral]

45 minutes ago, felice said:

I suspect it's more complicated than that. People there are happy despite the bad things the government does, but also because of the good things it does. I very much doubt they're genetically happier; ex-Cubans in Florida don't seem to be especially happy as far as I'm aware. And I doubt they'd stay very happy if the government entirely vanished overnight and left them in a state of anarchy. There's certainly room for improvement, but I think that's true of every country.

People, vast numbers of Cubans, wept, upon Fidel's death.

Even now Cuban families travel to his memorial in Santiago to pay their respects and assure him they remember him.  Every Sunday the lines to put a flower on his very simple memorial are very, very long.

[Rippounet]

33 minutes ago, felice said:

I suspect it's more complicated than that. People there are happy despite the bad things the government does, but also because of the good things it does. I very much doubt they're genetically happier; ex-Cubans in Florida don't seem to be especially happy as far as I'm aware. And I doubt they'd stay very happy if the government entirely vanished overnight and left them in a state of anarchy. There's certainly room for improvement, but I think that's true of every country.

I think in these discussions people tend vastly overestimate the importance of democracy to the average person. Most people aren't that keen about political power and care primarily for their economic and social wellbeing.
They also tend to confuse lack of democracy with political oppression. There are plenty of countries with authoritarian regimes that aren't that oppressive on a daily basis. Which means that most people go about their lives as anyone else and are as happy as their economic condition allows.

As for Cuba specifically I don't know enough to say how bad the oppression is. Probably worse than I think, but not as bad as some would have us think would be my guess.