Do you think Ned would have told Jon his true patronage if jon hadn't joined the watch?

[Varysblackfyre321]

More,should he have informed Jon of it before this 14 year old boy took vows that would make any of his royal famial ties mute? More, should Ned have even told Jon after joining the NW? 

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

More,should he have informed Jon of it before this 14 year old boy took vows that would make any of his royal famial ties mute? More, should Ned have even told Jon after joining the NW? 

Of course he should have told him before. Way way way before. Leaving him as he did was cruel. Ned robbed Jon of his identity and forced a very crappy one upon him instead. 

I don't think Ned ever would have told him the truth because he'd be scared of Roberts reaction, which in turn is dumb as hell. Yeah Robert hated Targs but he loved Lyanna more. He'd never kill the one thing she left behind.

(all this is assuming R+L=J)

 

edit: Also Robert having a legitimised Jon on hand would have further undermined Viserys' claim since he couldn't be King before Jon in any case.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

More,should he have informed Jon of it before this 14 year old boy took vows that would make any of his royal famial ties mute? More, should Ned have even told Jon after joining the NW? 

That his mother is the daughter of a fisherman?  Sure.  Son, I was on a boat during the rebellion and a homely but kindly woman gave me assistance.  We slept together and made you.

My favorite scenario -> Jon, you are the son of my sister Lyanna and my brother Brandon. 

[Sigella]

6 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

That his mother is the daughter of a fisherman?  Sure.  Son, I was on a boat during the rebellion and a homely but kindly woman gave me assistance.  We slept together and made you.

My favorite scenario -> Jon, you are the son of my sister Lyanna and my brother Brandon. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

25 minutes ago, Sigella said:

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Of course he should have told him before. Way way way before. Leaving him as he did was cruel. Ned robbed Jon of his identity and forced a very crappy one upon him instead. 

I don't think Ned ever would have told him the truth because he'd be scared of Roberts reaction, which in turn is dumb as hell. Yeah Robert hated Targs but he loved Lyanna more. He'd never kill the one thing she left behind.

(all this is assuming R+L=J)

 

edit: Also Robert having a legitimised Jon on hand would have further undermined Viserys' claim since he couldn't be King before Jon in any case.

But legitimizing Jon places him in direct opposition to his own heir; Joffery. I don't know if Robert would have bashed in baby Jon's skull if presented to him and told he was Lyanna's but, if not he'd need Ned to get the boy to make it so that Jon has no way of offering a challenge to him or his legacy; so the watch.

As for telling him long before...how much would you trust a 10 year old bastard boy not to blab out to someone he's secretly a prince and heir to the iron throne? I mean if Jon is told his mother was merely a woman Ned had loved very much what's the harm? Jon gets to be content "knowing" who is mother is and he isn't going to be frustrated for the rest of his life being denied being the king and won't risk his life for it if he chooses to fight.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Ned had a lot on his mind. 

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But legitimizing Jon places him in direct opposition to his own heir; Joffery. I don't know if Robert would have bashed in baby Jon's skull if presented to him and told he was Lyanna's but, if not he'd need Ned to get the boy to make it so that Jon has no way of offering a challenge to him or his legacy; so the watch.

As for telling him long before...how much would you trust a 10 year old bastard boy not to blab out to someone he's secretly a prince and heir to the iron throne? I mean if Jon is told his mother was merely a woman Ned had loved very much what's the harm? Jon gets to be content "knowing" who is mother is and he isn't going to be frustrated for the rest of his life being denied being the king and won't risk his life for it if he chooses to fight.

Those are good points. My objection would be that Jon was in their control and besides that: Robert would probably get a kick out of Cersei's horror at letting him live too..

 

Robert could have kept him at court as a highborn hostage. Or give him Dragonstone in exchange for forfeiting any claim on the crown. 

[Lord Lannister]

Even if Jon didn't join the watch, Ned's not going to have the chance to tell him. Ned's not going to take him to court out of fear of Robert's wrath. He either puts his foot down and tells Cat to get over it and leaves him at Winterfell, or he fosters him out to one of his bannermen or a house friendly to the family. Either way Jon's not going to have any impact on the events leading up to Ned's death.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Robert could have kept him at court as a highborn hostage. Or give him Dragonstone in exchange for forfeiting any claim on the crown. 

Dragonstone is piss poor and boring as hell. It's a prize no one would really want. Jon has the best claim to the throne; giving him lands and titles wouldn't be thought to appease him but basiclly an admittance of Jon being the rightful king; else why the bribery? Houses would flock to him should he declare aims for the throne.  Robert has a constructed a very fanciful story of the war. In it he's made the Targaryens the clear cut-villains, Lyanna his beautiful bride who'd been kidnapped by the dastardly dragon prince, and he the hero trying to save his love. Jon's mere existence puts in jepordary that fragile psyche. He may not kill Jon but by no means will he find this situation funny since now instead of being the rebel who was on a mission to Lyanna, he was a cuck of Rheagar or if Robert thinks Jon was born of rape a reminder he had failed to save his fiancee and once more his entire legacy(at least he thinks), will be under threat. 

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

That his mother is the daughter of a fisherman?  Sure.  Son, I was on a boat during the rebellion and a homely but kindly woman gave me assistance.  We slept together and made you.

My favorite scenario -> Jon, you are the son of my sister Lyanna and my brother Brandon. 

But wasn't Benjen much closer with Lyanna? I always assumed that their sword play and Benjen falling into that dark pool had a hidden meaning...

To reply to OP, yes he would. I believe he was only waiting for Jon to become an adult (and maybe pass a few years after that) so he'd have developed his character. Robert coming and snatching Ned changed his plans and we all know how good a planner he is...

[zandru]

10 hours ago, Sigella said:

Or give him Dragonstone in exchange for forfeiting any claim on the crown. 

Yeah, Stannis would really love this.

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I believe [Ned] was only waiting for Jon to become an adult

I think this is Ned's main reason for keeping the information from Jon. Also, it would seem insane to tell Jon while Robert and his entourage were right there at Winterfell. Ned had every reason to suspect Robert's reaction would not be positive; the man bragged on how he killed Rhaegar again and again every night in his dreams. Later, Ned would have felt further justified as Robert decides to send out assassins after Daenerys. We've seen nothing to indicate Robert was at all displeased by the brutal slaughter of Elia (who was wholly innocent and had no claim to the throne) and both of her small children.

Poor Ned had no idea of the danger he was going into when he departed for King's Landing, although Catelyn had seen the mutual death of the stag and direwolf as a disturbing omen. But it's crucial to our story that the wolf's "pups" survived.**

13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But legitimizing Jon places him in direct opposition to his own heir; Joffery.

Exactly. This would be the last thing Ned could have expected Robert to do. Giving Jon a castle and lordship? Further legitimization. And I agree that there are many lords in Westeros who look back fondly on Targaryen rule; they weren't all Aerys the Mad, after all, and Robert is a profligate, do nothing fool. But probably not stupid enough to set up a Targaryen opponent.

_______________

** Plus, the wolf's pups were adopted by the wolf's pups! Most of whom still live.

[Darth Sidious]

Do you think Ned would have told Jon his true patronage if jon hadn't joined the watch?

No, but let's make it interesting and give them a man to man talk after Jon joined the watch and can no longer inherit.  The conversation would go like this.

Ned - Jon, I'm naaht yaah daaad.  

Jon - Waaah aaare yaah saaayin?

Ned - Brandon is yaah daaad and Lyanna yaah mum.  Winterfell was yours by rights.

15 hours ago, Sigella said:

edit: Also Robert having a legitimised Jon on hand would have further undermined Viserys' claim since he couldn't be King before Jon in any case.

Nope.  King Viserys III's claims cannot be undermined.  He was already crowned on Dragonstone and was therefore the rightful king of the Andals, the First Men, and the Rhoynar.  King Aerys II chose Viserys to inherit after him and Rhaegar's line was disinherited.  

[LynnS]

It just wouldn't be as effective as Jon going down to the crypts and realizing that Lyanna is his mummy.  With all the confusion about Ned being his daddy, to follow.

I think this is the thing that Bran learns from Ned's ghost about Jon, the thing that is more disturbing than the crow dreams. 

[The Wolves]

16 hours ago, Sigella said:

Of course he should have told him before. Way way way before. Leaving him as he did was cruel. Ned robbed Jon of his identity and forced a very crappy one upon him instead. 

I don't think Ned ever would have told him the truth because he'd be scared of Roberts reaction, which in turn is dumb as hell. Yeah Robert hated Targs but he loved Lyanna more. He'd never kill the one thing she left behind.

(all this is assuming R+L=J)

 

edit: Also Robert having a legitimised Jon on hand would have further undermined Viserys' claim since he couldn't be King before Jon in any case.

To the bolded, show me how you came to this conclusion.

Robert expressed Targaryen hatred more than his love for Lyanna. He stood over the bodies of babies and dehumanized them almost losing her brkther’s friendship in the process. He spent 14yrs dreaming of killing Rhaegar every night, not of Lyanna. He authorized the murder of 13yr old Dany and her baby. He turned his back on Lyanna’s niece while she was begging for her innocent pet’s life. And he didn’t give a fuck about the Starks especially not Ned. 

So remind me when did Robert love Lyanna more than he hated Rhaegar? 

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It just wouldn't be as effective as Jon going down to the crypts and realizing that Lyanna is his mummy.  With all the confusion about Ned being his daddy, to follow.

I think this is the thing that Bran learns from Ned's ghost about Jon, the thing that is more disturbing than the crow dreams. 

Well this makes more sense now.

Quote

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart.

I always thought it was some medieval way of thinking, but I guess it was only Ned's thoughts.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well this makes more sense now.

I always thought it was some medieval way of thinking, but I guess it was only Ned's thoughts.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Ned is his daddy, only that Jon and Bran think so.  Of course we don't know what Ned's ghost told Bran because he forgets about it on waking. 

[Megorova]

I think that it's actually good, that Ned died without telling Jon, who his real parents were. Both of them are dead anyway - Rhaegar and Lyanna. So the only difference would have been only the loss of another parent - Jon thought that Ned was his father, so after finding out, that his father was Rhaegar, Jon would have lost the only father he even had - Ned. So knowing truth at that time, wouldn't have given Jon nothing. But now, after Ned's death, situation is totally different. If Jon will find out about his real parentage NOW, it won't take anything away from him, because Ned lived and died as Jon's father. Add to that that now Jon can claim Iron Throne, and not Ned, nor Ned's best friend Robert, are standing in Jon's way to become King of 7K. 

The timing of revelation totally changed perspective. Then it would have ruined Jon's life, but now it can give him new purpose - as a rightful King of 7K, he has even more reasons to get rid of Cersei and her family, because they not just killed Ned, they also took what is rightfully his - Iron Throne.

Though if things didn't happened the way they did, and if instead of execution, Ned was sent to The Wall, and became Black Brother alongside with Jon, then he would have definitely said everything to Jon. As he promised last time they saw each other. He said that he will tell Jon, who his mother is, next time they will meet. But in those circumstances, his revelation would have caused a catastrophe. Jon would have either deserted from Night's Watch, not to be near Ned. Or he would have became reckless, and eventually would have gotten himself killed, either by wildlings or by watchers like ser Alistar, those that hated him, even without knowing that he was a Targaryen prince. Under those circumstances, Jon would have been too emotionally unstable, to keep in secret what he was told, thus everyone would have find out, and Jon wouldn't have lived long after that.

16 hours ago, Sigella said:

I don't think Ned ever would have told him the truth because he'd be scared of Roberts reaction, which in turn is dumb as hell. Yeah Robert hated Targs but he loved Lyanna more. He'd never kill the one thing she left behind.

Even if Robert woudn't have killed Jon, though Cersei for sure would have. Because Jon Targaryen is a threat for Cersei's children, and their future. He is their rival for Iron Throne. Even if he himself would have never had any ideas of becoming King of 7K, there are still other people, that would have wanted to use him to get to IT. People like Varys, that don't care what's the color of a dragon, as long as that dragon will get them to power source.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Robert expressed Targaryen hatred more than his love for Lyanna.

Indeed. I think a huge component of Robert's continuing "love" for Lyanna is merely possessiveness.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Even if Robert woudn't have killed Jon, though Cersei for sure would have. Because Jon Targaryen is a threat for Cersei's children, and their future. He is their rival for Iron Throne.

Definitely, I'd say. Even Catelyn, who in no way can be compared with the evil of Cersei, wanted Jon gone from Winterfell - by death, if need be - because she wanted nobody to dispute her children's claims to Winterfell.

[Sigella]

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

To the bolded, show me how you came to this conclusion.

Robert expressed Targaryen hatred more than his love for Lyanna. He stood over the bodies of babies and dehumanized them almost losing her brkther’s friendship in the process. He spent 14yrs dreaming of killing Rhaegar every night, not of Lyanna. He authorized the murder of 13yr old Dany and her baby. He turned his back on Lyanna’s niece while she was begging for her innocent pet’s life. And he didn’t give a fuck about the Starks especially not Ned. 

So remind me when did Robert love Lyanna more than he hated Rhaegar? 

1 Robert did not hate Targs until Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, kidnapping her is what he hates them for.

(edit: sorry a bit unclear maybe; I mean that since the hate is an effect of the love, hate cannot cancel out the love without ceasing to exist itself.)

2 Lyanna's niece's pet isn't comparable with Lyanna's child, at all. I'm kind of shocked that you think its a valid objection.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Even if Robert woudn't have killed Jon, though Cersei for sure would have. Because Jon Targaryen is a threat for Cersei's children, and their future. He is their rival for Iron Throne. Even if he himself would have never had any ideas of becoming King of 7K, there are still other people, that would have wanted to use him to get to IT. People like Varys, that don't care what's the color of a dragon, as long as that dragon will get them to power source.

Sure she'd try, but no-one would know that beforehand. Readers a privy to lots of info characters then and there would be ignorant of. Plus if he was made to swear fealty, Jon would become an oath breaker and traitor and freed up to kill if he ever tried to press his claim.

4 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

Nope.  King Viserys III's claims cannot be undermined.  He was already crowned on Dragonstone and was therefore the rightful king of the Andals, the First Men, and the Rhoynar.  King Aerys II chose Viserys to inherit after him and Rhaegar's line was disinherited.  

Sure it can. You could crown Moonboy and it wouldn't make any real difference. Robert already usurped the Targs - they would have to re-take it in any case. Robert is rightful king by conquest.

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Yeah, Stannis would really love this.

 I never got the impression that Stannis' feelings was ever a priority to Robert. Feel free to present real argument for this.