BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 On 1/19/2018 at 11:29 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said: More,should he have informed Jon of it before this 14 year old boy took vows that would make any of his royal famial ties mute? More, should Ned have even told Jon after joining the NW? He did . Eddard told Jon ," You may not have my name , but you have my blood ." . Anything else is not important . And he called Jon , son . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 3 hours ago, The Wolves said: To the bolded, show me how you came to this conclusion. Robert expressed Targaryen hatred more than his love for Lyanna. He stood over the bodies of babies and dehumanized them almost losing her brkther’s friendship in the process. He spent 14yrs dreaming of killing Rhaegar every night, not of Lyanna. He authorized the murder of 13yr old Dany and her baby. He turned his back on Lyanna’s niece while she was begging for her innocent pet’s life. And he didn’t give a fuck about the Starks especially not Ned. I agree. Robert knowing Jon is Rhaegar's son is a very bad idea. The man had the basic emotional set (anger, desire, etc.) but I don't think he was capable of loving someone. He also has proven that he lacked remorse and empathy. I don't think Ned would've told Jon. He thought he was protecting the boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Sigella said: 1 Robert did not hate Targs until Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, kidnapping her is what he hates them for. (edit: sorry a bit unclear maybe; I mean that since the hate is an effect of the love, hate cannot cancel out the love without ceasing to exist itself.) 2 Lyanna's niece's pet isn't comparable with Lyanna's child, at all. I'm kind of shocked that you think its a valid objection. Sure she'd try, but no-one would know that beforehand. Readers a privy to lots of info characters then and there would be ignorant of. Plus if he was made to swear fealty, Jon would become an oath breaker and traitor and freed up to kill if he ever tried to press his claim. Sure it can. You could crown Moonboy and it wouldn't make any real difference. Robert already usurped the Targs - they would have to re-take it in any case. Robert is rightful king by conquest. I never got the impression that Stannis' feelings was ever a priority to Robert. Feel free to present real argument for this. Ned begged Robert on his love for Lyanna to spare Lady yet Robert turned his back on Ned, Sansa, and his love for Lyanna. Robert hated the Targs more than he loved(which I don’t believe he did love Lyanna)Lyanna.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 5 hours ago, The Wolves said: Ned begged Robert on his love for Lyanna to spare Lady yet Robert turned his back on Ned, Sansa, and his love for Lyanna. Good catch! In retrospect, Ned should then have turned his back on Robert and taken Arya, Sansa, Lady, his entourage, and Nymeria if they could find her straight back to Winterfell. And, as he had noted to Cat earlier, started preparing for the coming war. But Jon was safer (at least from Robert and the Lannisters) where he was at the Wall. Best tell Jon as little as possible. Certainly not his parentage, at least not at this point. Particularly if Jon had taken his vows by then. Have omitted a long paragraph running down Robert Baratheon. I'm sure we've all seen similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I'm rereading AGOT. Jon thinks his mother was a whore or tavern wench then tells himself his lord father wouldn't have lost his honor that far. He suspects his mother was a married Lady. Lack of identity is a cruel thing to saddle a child with. There is no doubting that Ned loved Jon and cared for him deeply. The truth of Jon's parentage is simply too dangerous for all the Starks, but Jon in particular. Lyanna was an excuse to do what Robert loved...fight. We spend the Tourney at Harrenhal as seen through Howland Reed's eyes. He mentions Robert with the lord of roses then twice with Lem Lemoncloak. These were notable pairings to the Crannogman. What we don't hear of is Robert with Lyanna. We hear plenty about Lyanna and her brothers, even Lyanna with a little Crannogman, but never with Robert. He did not love Lyanna. I dare say he looked forward to taking down the Prince of Dragonstone, but not for love. We read repeatedly that a man becomes amorous following a fight. Could be that stags work differently and they simply become hard and cold. Allowing Elia and her dragon spawn to be murdered was unconscionable. I have to wonder if Robert would have stooped so low as to dirty his hands with that work. Exile was a viable option. But Robert does not back up. Kill them all. How anyone would believe that Robert wouldn't have killed Jon as a baby, child or young man is incredulous. Ned did the right thing with Jon. Still, I wish he'd just told Jon his mother was dead instead of that distant nothingness. It's heart breaking to read Jon's thoughts on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 13 hours ago, Curled Finger said: We read repeatedly that a man becomes amorous following a fight. Not "amorous". Rapey. Big difference. 13 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Lyanna was an excuse to do what Robert loved...fight. We spend the Tourney at Harrenhal as seen through Howland Reed's eyes. He mentions Robert with the lord of roses then twice with Lem Lemoncloak. These were notable pairings to the Crannogman. What we don't hear of is Robert with Lyanna. We hear plenty about Lyanna and her brothers, even Lyanna with a little Crannogman, but never with Robert. He did not love Lyanna. I dare say he looked forward to taking down the Prince of Dragonstone, but not for love. Good analysis! I hadn't previously noticed this, just assuming that little had been presented about the tourney at Harrenhal. But the omission of the she-wolf never being seen with the stag-dude seems to be significant, considering the close proximity of the little crannogman was to the wolf delegation. So who IS "Lem Lemoncloak"? I hadn't noticed that, either (blush). Was he truly a member of the King's Guard who pissed on his cloak to disguise himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 20 hours ago, The Wolves said: Ned begged Robert on his love for Lyanna to spare Lady yet Robert turned his back on Ned, Sansa, and his love for Lyanna. Robert hated the Targs more than he loved(which I don’t believe he did love Lyanna)Lyanna.. Yeah we're all free to our interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." Besides, there's Ned's promise to Lyanna on her deathbed, which we don't know what it is but it could be something powerful and important enough to tie Ned's hands in this matter (of telling Jon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, zandru said: Not "amorous". Rapey. Big difference. Good analysis! I hadn't previously noticed this, just assuming that little had been presented about the tourney at Harrenhal. But the omission of the she-wolf never being seen with the stag-dude seems to be significant, considering the close proximity of the little crannogman was to the wolf delegation. So who IS "Lem Lemoncloak"? I hadn't noticed that, either (blush). Was he truly a member of the King's Guard who pissed on his cloak to disguise himself? I apologize, zandru. I should have typed Richard Lonmouth not Lem Lemoncloak even if I do harbor deep suspicion that they are one in the same. Richard was a bannerman of Robert's, but a close friend of Rhaegar's. In the end he supported Rhaegar. I slipped up there, really a thousand apologies. I believe Lemmoncloak's cloak really is yellow as that was the color of Lonmouth's. Hey now, one does not have to feel "rapey" if there are people willing to er, receive a man's condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 22 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: He did . Eddard told Jon ," You may not have my name , but you have my blood ." . Anything else is not important . And he called Jon , son . This is a show thing, not a book thing. Jon and Ned have a total of zero conversations in the books thus far, which is a little bit jarring. 22 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: I agree. Robert knowing Jon is Rhaegar's son is a very bad idea. The man had the basic emotional set (anger, desire, etc.) but I don't think he was capable of loving someone. He also has proven that he lacked remorse and empathy. I don't think Ned would've told Jon. He thought he was protecting the boy. I think Robert could have easily turned on Ned had he found out what Ned was keeping from him. The fact that he is certain Robert would kill Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella, children he believed were his says a lot about what he might have done with Jon if he found out the truth. And Cersei's influence is not someone we should neglect in this equation. 21 hours ago, The Wolves said: Ned begged Robert on his love for Lyanna to spare Lady yet Robert turned his back on Ned, Sansa, and his love for Lyanna. Ned's thought progression in this is really interesting, from Aegon's smashed in head to Lyanna and Sansa's pleas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 No, I don't think he would have ever told Jon. There are two potential threats, one of which hasn't been discussed here. There is the obvious one of Robert's reaction. There is also the possibility (however distant) of Jon setting himself up as the Targaryen claimant (or someone else doing it for him). Given Ned's loyalty to Robert, I don't think Ned would risk that possibility (however unlikely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Richard Lonmouth Ah! The "knight of skulls and kisses." (That's one weird sigil...) The entry says that he and Robert pledged Aerys that they would find and identify the "knight of the laughing tree" - but I guess the laughing tree had the last laugh. Thanks! Lem Lemoncloak seems to be a fairly mysterious figure, and I expect we'll learn a lot more about him in The Winds of Winter. (I still believe...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Ned was planning to. But that's hard to do after what happened in King's Landing. A missing head gets in the way of effective verbal communication. In my opinion, it has pretty much been proven that Ned and Ashara are the parents of Jon Snow. Ned + Ashara = Jon. Just as Ghost is a sibling of Summer, Greywind, etc., Jon is a sibling of Arya, Robb, etc. The scene with the momma direwolf makes no sense if Jon is not a Stark sibling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 On 1/20/2018 at 1:37 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said: Dragonstone is piss poor and boring as hell. It's a prize no one would really want. Jon has the best claim to the throne; giving him lands and titles wouldn't be thought to appease him but basiclly an admittance of Jon being the rightful king; else why the bribery? Houses would flock to him should he declare aims for the throne. Robert has a constructed a very fanciful story of the war. In it he's made the Targaryens the clear cut-villains, Lyanna his beautiful bride who'd been kidnapped by the dastardly dragon prince, and he the hero trying to save his love. Jon's mere existence puts in jepordary that fragile psyche. He may not kill Jon but by no means will he find this situation funny since now instead of being the rebel who was on a mission to Lyanna, he was a cuck of Rheagar or if Robert thinks Jon was born of rape a reminder he had failed to save his fiancee and once more his entire legacy(at least he thinks), will be under threat. Well, he is the hero compared to Aerys; apart from trying to get Lyanna back, he was fighting for his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 19 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said: Ned was planning to. But that's hard to do after what happened in King's Landing. A missing head gets in the way of effective verbal communication. In my opinion, it has pretty much been proven that Ned and Ashara are the parents of Jon Snow. Ned + Ashara = Jon. Just as Ghost is a sibling of Summer, Greywind, etc., Jon is a sibling of Arya, Robb, etc. The scene with the momma direwolf makes no sense if Jon is not a Stark sibling. The Youtube channel, The Order of the Greenhand built an excellent argument to support this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 On 1/19/2018 at 8:29 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said: More,should he have informed Jon of it before this 14 year old boy took vows that would make any of his royal famial ties mute? More, should Ned have even told Jon after joining the NW? Nope. Ned promised Lyanna that he would protect Jon and keep his identity secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I think given what Ned knew to be a social and religious issue it was a good call he didn't tell Jon.Given what transpired later I think he regretted it though. 1.Because of Jon's bastard status he would be shunned at court.Ned told Cat this.That wasn't going to change even if he was legitimized.He would still be seen as a product of lust made in an unsanctified bed. 2.Not to mention, Robert totally pissed Ned off with how he reacted to the murder of Rhaegar's kids on Tywin's order.So that definitely had a part in it. 3.Lastly, he would be happier at Winterfell hands down.Winterfell was home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/20/2018 at 3:26 PM, Sigella said: 1 Robert did not hate Targs until Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, kidnapping her is what he hates them for. (edit: sorry a bit unclear maybe; I mean that since the hate is an effect of the love, hate cannot cancel out the love without ceasing to exist itself.) 2 Lyanna's niece's pet isn't comparable with Lyanna's child, at all. I'm kind of shocked that you think its a valid objection. Sure she'd try, but no-one would know that beforehand. Readers a privy to lots of info characters then and there would be ignorant of. Plus if he was made to swear fealty, Jon would become an oath breaker and traitor and freed up to kill if he ever tried to press his claim. Sure it can. You could crown Moonboy and it wouldn't make any real difference. Robert already usurped the Targs - they would have to re-take it in any case. Robert is rightful king by conquest. I never got the impression that Stannis' feelings was ever a priority to Robert. Feel free to present real argument for this. Robert is not the rightful king while Viserys and Daenerys are alive. They are the heirs of their father, King Aerys II. Aerys had unquestionable right to rule and he has the right to rule in every legal way possible. He chose to pass his throne to his son Viserys and Queen Rhaella crowned him. That is that. Robert had possession but he did not have ownership. Stealing someone's property does not make it yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 9 hours ago, Agent Orange said: Robert is not the rightful king while Viserys and Daenerys are alive. They are the heirs of their father, King Aerys II. Aerys had unquestionable right to rule and he has the right to rule in every legal way possible. He chose to pass his throne to his son Viserys and Queen Rhaella crowned him. That is that. Robert had possession but he did not have ownership. Stealing someone's property does not make it yours. Robert took the throne by conquest, making him the rightful king in the eyes of Westeros. Thats exactly how the Targs came to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geddus Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said: Because of Jon's bastard status he would be shunned at court.Ned told Cat this.That wasn't going to change even if he was legitimized.He would still be seen as a product of lust made in an unsanctified bed. I think that's just an excuse, Aurane Waters seems to do just fine, for example; Ned was probably afraid someone could see something of Rhaegar in Jon, and that would have been a disaster. I believe GRRM made maester Aemon blind for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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