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Do you think Ned would have told Jon his true patronage if jon hadn't joined the watch?


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3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What Northern bastard is in KL at the moment to make that comparison?

This is about was it right for Ned not to have told Jon right? Instead of allowing Jon to go to the Wall right? And why? 

The bastard situation would always be the cause .Cersie in Ned's mind wasn't going to have that.She proved that.

I don't think a northern bastard would be treated differently than one from the Westerlands or the Crownlands or anywhere else.

Cersei couldn't care less about Ned's bastard son, but she would about Robert's, a lot. So the danger would have been someone finding out Jon's true father's identity, wheter it's Rhaegar or Robert.

To answer the original question: if telling the truth would have put Jon at risk then Ned was right not to tell him yet. As for letting him go to the Wall, why not? Yes it's dangerous, but there's nothing safer for Jon short of becoming a maester.

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I believe Ned would tell him eventually, you can see Ned didn't want Jon to join the Night's Watch, he was disturbed when Maester Luwin told him that.

 

I am not really a believer of R + L = J, I think there are more things behind Jon's true parentage. I also think Ashara Dayne is involved as well as Brandon Stark and I also believe there was a baby swap in the process.

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To the OP, yes, I still don't really understand why Ned wouldn't think it was pertinent to reveal this information to Jon before he took vows for life.  It may or may not have ended up mattering, Jon maybe would have decided anyway to go to the Wall since he really didn't have anywhere else to go, but it was still something you would think would be worth Jon knowing before he commits to holding no crowns and all that good stuff.  

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32 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

To the OP, yes, I still don't really understand why Ned wouldn't think it was pertinent to reveal this information to Jon before he took vows for life.  It may or may not have ended up mattering, Jon maybe would have decided anyway to go to the Wall since he really didn't have anywhere else to go, but it was still something you would think would be worth Jon knowing before he commits to holding no crowns and all that good stuff.  

You know I know this will sound a little controversial but, I feel Ned neglected to enlighten Jon on the actual nature of the watch because he really wanted the boy to join up. 

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On 23. 1. 2018 at 9:11 PM, Geddus said:

Ned thinking Jon is a bastard only means that, as far as Ned knows, the boy's parents were not married. It doesn't say anything about their identity.

That passage doesn't actually spell it out that Ned considers Jon a bastard. It's a pretty ambiguous piece of writing:

“And tell him I’ve not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he’d come back. So you’ll tell him I’m waiting, won’t you? I don’t want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.”
Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

Now, do the bolded parts belong together, or the underlined ones? Is the thought of Jon prompted by the promise to the young prostitute, whose reaction resembles Lyanna's after Ned promised her, or does Ned already return to the topic of Robert's bastard children, which prompts his question to LF? Or does it all belong together? I can't possibly tell.

5 hours ago, IronBars said:

Ned didnt pay any price for his promise to lyanna if R+L=J, bar letting people think he sired a bastard, but since he doesnt see that as dishonourable since he is honouring his sisters last wish i cant see a price he paid

You are surely jesting. Ned lied to his best friend and king (which is treason), he lied to his wife and made her miserable by putting the proof of his infidelity right into her household, and he made Jon miserable by refusing to tell him about his mother. And if RLJ, he was actively committing treason and putting his whole family in danger. If that isn't something to lose sleep over, I really don't know what else might.

As for the bolded - he does say that sometimes there can be honour in a lie when you are protecting someone, but nowhere does he exonerates himself.

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31 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That passage doesn't actually spell it out that Ned considers Jon a bastard.

Oh I agree, I meant that even if Ned thought that it wouldn't have implied anything more. I went along with that interpretation for the sake of argument.

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45 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Oh I agree, I meant that even if Ned thought that it wouldn't have implied anything more. I went along with that interpretation for the sake of argument.

Ah, sorry. I didn't read all the arguments in the thread.

Hmmm... have you ever given thought what the promise might refer to in this passage:

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”
“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You are surely jesting. Ned lied to his best friend and king (which is treason), he lied to his wife and made her miserable by putting the proof of his infidelity right into her household, and he made Jon miserable by refusing to tell him about his mother. And if RLJ, he was actively committing treason and putting his whole family in danger. If that isn't something to lose sleep over, I really don't know what else might.

As for the bolded - he does say that sometimes there can be honour in a lie when you are protecting someone, but nowhere does he exonerates himself.

He didnt pay a price for any of that did he ? A sleepless night, denyjng jon his heritage and making him miserible (which in another thresd you said he wasnt miserible i think unless i am thinking of someone else, in which case sorry), and saying he made cat miserable (whicb is an overstatement) is not paying a price for what in his eyes had the higher demand on his honour, paying a price would of been cat hating him, or jon finding the truth and hating/resenting him, neither is the case

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6 hours ago, Geddus said:

I don't think a northern bastard would be treated differently than one from the Westerlands or the Crownlands or anywhere else.

Cersei couldn't care less about Ned's bastard son, but she would about Robert's, a lot. So the danger would have been someone finding out Jon's true father's identity, wheter it's Rhaegar or Robert.

To answer the original question: if telling the truth would have put Jon at risk then Ned was right not to tell him yet. As for letting him go to the Wall, why not? Yes it's dangerous, but there's nothing safer for Jon short of becoming a maester.

A royal bastard would though.And i have no doubt Cersie would care if she found out he was Robert's seeing as her kids aren't his. He would eventually be a threat to Jon....Had he been at court and had it been known that he was Robert's.

I agree either way Ned not telling Jon was valid.I'm just saying its a matter of what he knew when.Or whether or not it mattered seeing as he had a simpler reason any way for not telling him.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That passage doesn't actually spell it out that Ned considers Jon a bastard. It's a pretty ambiguous piece of writing:

“And tell him I’ve not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he’d come back. So you’ll tell him I’m waiting, won’t you? I don’t want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly.”
Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. “I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

Now, do the bolded parts belong together, or the underlined ones? Is the thought of Jon prompted by the promise to the young prostitute, whose reaction resembles Lyanna's after Ned promised her, or does Ned already return to the topic of Robert's bastard children, which prompts his question to LF? Or does it all belong together? I can't possibly tell.

 

It does Ygrain,they actually do go together.That's qualified when Ned thinks " If the gods frown on bastards so much why did they fill men with such lusts?

What does Barra's babe and Jon have in common? They are bastards who are getting a bit of A RAW DEAL.

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59 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

A royal bastard would though.And i have no doubt Cersie would care if she found out he was Robert's seeing as her kids aren't his. He would eventually be a threat to Jon....Had he been at court and had it been known that he was Robert's.

I agree either way Ned not telling Jon was valid.I'm just saying its a matter of what he knew when.Or whether or not it mattered seeing as he had a simpler reason any way for not telling him.

It does Ygrain,they actually do go together.That's qualified when Ned thinks " If the gods frown on bastards so much why did they fill men with such lusts?

What does Barra's babe and Jon have in common? They are bastards who are getting a bit of A RAW DEAL.

Poor Barra got an neckful of steel. And how do we know that the gods frown on bastards?

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47 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ned was somewhat lucky Jon was not influenced at all by Theon. Had Jon been like Theon or Brandon Stark he may have started fathering bastards with purple eyes. 

Dark-haired bastards with violet eyes... not really an indication of him being Rhaegar's son. IN-universe, weren't there rumors of him being Ashara Dayne's son, and she's described as having haunting violet eyes? Point is, let's not put all our eggs in one basket.

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Hmmm... have you ever given thought what the promise might refer to in this passage:

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”
“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

I have no idea. Ned thinking about Lyanna when Sansa begs for Lady's life is easy to understand, this one has always eluded me. Maybe he had something to say about "the dragon's honor" but he couldn't because by talking he would have somehow broken his promise? I don't know.

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18 hours ago, IronBars said:

You assume he still would of joined the watch if he Ned told him lyanna was his mother via rhaegar, 

The entire point is when jon is gonna join the NW that is a crux moment in his life, he should know who he is beforr making the decision, and because he is going to be in mortal danger at the wall anyway it doubles down why at this point it would/should of been the time ned told him everything, 

Nah, I'm not assuming anything other than Ned thinking that the NW was just a good fit for a boy who had a forbidden heritage. I think telling a 14/15 year old in our day and age would be very wise. But Westeros is more complicated. Catelyn was very wary of Jon despite knowing the boy's temperament and his apparent love for his siblings. Imagine this on a larger scale. Imagine Cat learned they were harboring a Targ. Imagine anyone knowing. It could of gotten Ned and his entire family killed. Regardless of whether Jon was ready to learn this or not is beside the point. Westeros wasn't ready. If it were, (f)Aegon would of arrived much sooner. 

My point is that I don't think Ned would of handled it any other way no matter what. Ned threw away his honor in order to keep the boy's true parentage a secret. And in the end, I believe it was worth it.

What could Jon of done? He'd be the heir to a dynasty that the North, Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands were hell bent on destroying. 

I'll add, in direct response to the OP, no. Either way, their King is Robert Baratheon and we get to see first hand the lengths he would go to to ensure the Targs would not return. Ned knows this well. And the entire realm knew Robert's hatred for Rhaegar. You just need to imagine Robert or Cersei or Tywin getting even the faintest whiff of this type of treachery. 
It wouldn't just be about Jon. It would implicate all of the Starks for harboring him. 

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3 hours ago, Geddus said:

I have no idea. Ned thinking about Lyanna when Sansa begs for Lady's life is easy to understand, this one has always eluded me. Maybe he had something to say about "the dragon's honor" but he couldn't because by talking he would have somehow broken his promise? I don't know.

Thanks - I wanted to test it on someone who hasn't been around long and is not influenced by the previous discussions. I also perceive it as something related to "the dragon's honour", and since, unlike the promise to bury Lyanna at Winterfell, Ned doesn't share it with Robert, it is either due to the promise itself, or to the nature of the information  that he cannot share it. Aloud, he agrees with Robert ("you avenged Lyanna") but to himself, he adds something that Robert cannot be told -  that Rhaegar never raped Lyanna, or possibly even that Rhaegar never dishonored Lyanna, i.e. didn't father a bastard on her.

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58 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Nah, I'm not assuming anything other than Ned thinking that the NW was just a good fit for a boy who had a forbidden heritage. I think telling a 14/15 year old in our day and age would be very wise. But Westeros is more complicated. Catelyn was very wary of Jon despite knowing the boy's temperament and his apparent love for his siblings. Imagine this on a larger scale. Imagine Cat learned they were harboring a Targ. Imagine anyone knowing. It could of gotten Ned and his entire family killed. Regardless of whether Jon was ready to learn this or not is beside the point. Westeros wasn't ready. If it were, (f)Aegon would of arrived much sooner. 
 

Ok, i disagree, telling a 14/15 year old in our time, would be insane, telling a 14/15 year old in westoros (medival time for us) would of been much safer, they grow up much faster (jon as a bastard grew up even faster)

Also cat was wary of jon because he was "Neds bastard" and thought he was a threat in future based on that alone. Because bastards have such a bad reputation.

Also Ned letting jon join the nights watch thats full of thieves rapists and murderers when jon is deluded to thinking its full of honourable men where he could be proud to serve doesnt strike me as Ned caring all that much about jon or hes safety or mental state.

Also i believe who you refer to as faegon is the true aegon, i cant see jon con supporting a pretender and i cant see him supporting aegon unless some irrefutable prove he was aegon was presented to him because he seems like ned in the sense honour matters to him, and because he loved rhaegar.

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:



My point is that I don't think Ned would of handled it any other way no matter what. Ned threw away his honor in order to keep the boy's true parentage a secret. And in the end, I believe it was worth it.

What could Jon of done? He'd be the heir to a dynasty that the North, Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands were hell bent on destroying. 

Ok, Ned definetly should of handled it a different way. As i said above 

Sayng everyone wanted to kill the targs is an overstatement as well since was an even enough sided civil war.

 

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11 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Ok, i disagree, telling a 14/15 year old in our time, would be insane, telling a 14/15 year old in westoros (medival time for us) would of been much safer, they grow up much faster (jon as a bastard grew up even faster)

Also cat was wary of jon because he was "Neds bastard" and thought he was a threat in future based on that alone. Because bastards have such a bad reputation.

Also Ned letting jon join the nights watch thats full of thieves rapists and murderers when jon is deluded to thinking its full of honourable men where he could be proud to serve doesnt strike me as Ned caring all that much about jon or hes safety or mental state.

Also i believe who you refer to as faegon is the true aegon, i cant see jon con supporting a pretender and i cant see him supporting aegon unless some irrefutable prove he was aegon was presented to him because he seems like ned in the sense honour matters to him, and because he loved rhaegar.

Ok, Ned definetly should of handled it a different way. As i said above 

Sayng everyone wanted to kill the targs is an overstatement as well since was an even enough sided civil war.

 

That's fine, it's question of perspective and at the vary least we've shared that much. We're at odds on many aspects here so much so I don't even know where to start! 

For clarity, the 'f' before Aegon is is in brackets because the jury is out. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Westeros needed to be 'ready' for a new Targ. If some of the most cunning minds on Planetos held back for a few years then it stands to reason that Ned would of been out of his depth.

Ned is trying to keep Jon's head attached to his body. And safeguard his family from the backlash of harboring what is effectively a fugitive. It really is that simple. 

How is telling a 14/15 year old in our time that they're an orphan who was adopted insane? Legit question.

Whether Jon is the son of Ned or Rhaegar he's still a bastard. So I don't know what difference it makes other than the enormity of his potential claim should he attempt to press it. 

And you said it yourself: WAR. Ned had already seen enough of war. Seen enough to know that it doesn't help anyone. He's seen enough misery and bloodshed to know that Jon's true claim would only bring more grief and agony and more death. Even if the North was sympathetic to the Targaryen's (they're not) he'd attract ambitious lords who had their own agenda. He'd be a figure head for another rebellion and a target for the IT. We see what Cersei intends for Robert's bastards... 

Ned, lied to Jon. It's not pretty. The Wall does suck. But he had a chance at some kind of life. The alternative would of been death. We see early on in aGoT that Robert was willing to use a FM to kill Dany. Who was on the other side of the world! Imagine if he had learned his beloved friend Eddard Stark had been harboring Rhaegars kid this entire time? Robert's wrath would of been epic.

I feel bad for Jon but the truth would of meant disaster. 

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14 hours ago, IronBars said:

He didnt pay a price for any of that did he ? A sleepless night, denyjng jon his heritage and making him miserible (which in another thresd you said he wasnt miserible i think unless i am thinking of someone else, in which case sorry), and saying he made cat miserable (whicb is an overstatement) is not paying a price for what in his eyes had the higher demand on his honour, paying a price would of been cat hating him, or jon finding the truth and hating/resenting him, neither is the case

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

Doesn't really sound much like a man who would give himself a pass for lying, no matter the reason, and it is definitely not up to you to decide what constitutes a price for keeping promises. Ned tells you here explicitely that he is troubled by his lies, and that he has perpetuated those lies during the last fourteen years. If not RLJ, then what is Ned lying about and why does it bother him so much?

In the other thread, I stated that Cat wasn't treating Jon terribly. Here, I was referring to the trauma of not knowing his mother's identity which we see in Jon's PoVs time and again. If you don't think that Cat felt miserable because her husband had cheated on her and made her live with his bastard under one roof, feel free to replace it with another word, but the fact that Ned prayed to the gods that Cat might forgive him should tell you that Ned didn't expect her to take it easy.

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On 1/23/2018 at 1:38 PM, Apoplexy said:

Im not sure Jon wouldn't have done something irrational if he were told he was a contender for the throne and not just Ned Stark's bastard. Maybe that's what Ned was afraid of too. Ned wanted to protect him, and probably thought it better to wait a few more years before telling him.

But he isn't a contender. He is still a bastard as far as we know in the books. You might be right about jon but ned should have told cat so she stopped being so cruel. He didn't because it had  been so long it made it incredibly hard to finally tell. But if he had told cat after say five years imagine the difference it would have made and she wouldn't have treated jon so badly.

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1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

But he isn't a contender. He is still a bastard as far as we know in the books. You might be right about jon but ned should have told cat so she stopped being so cruel. He didn't because it had  been so long it made it incredibly hard to finally tell. But if he had told cat after say five years imagine the difference it would have made and she wouldn't have treated jon so badly.

If RLJ, then telling Cat would not necessarily have improved anything. Cat's first priority was the well-being of her family. Knowing how much Robert hated Targaryans, particularly Rhaegar, knowing what havoc the Blackfyres caused the Targaryans (they are, after all, one of her internal arguments against legitimizing Jon), and knowing that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she would have doubled down on her pressure to get Jon away from Winterfell, and probably even urged Ned to just hand Jon over to Robert, because she would be frantic at the idea that Robert would consider raising Jon to be treason, as has been mentioned above, and come after the whole family. It would not matter to her if no one else knew; she was not often rational when considering potential threats to her offspring, and also she tended to be convinced that nobody understood these things like she did (witness her frantic need to convince Ned that he could not refuse Robert's offer to make him Hand and betroth Joffrey to Sansa). As later events with Jaime turned out, though Ned would never know it, Cat would have been pretty darn likely to wrap Jon in a bow and send him to Robert with her compliments within minutes of learning who he really was.

I've always been a bit baffled that Ned didn't know perfectly well that if it ever came to Jon's life or her own children, Cat wouldn't hesitate to cut Jon's throat herself.

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