Do you think Ned would have told Jon his true patronage if jon hadn't joined the watch?

[IronBars]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:20 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said:

That's fine, it's question of perspective and at the vary least we've shared that much. We're at odds on many aspects here so much so I don't even know where to start! 

For clarity, the 'f' before Aegon is is in brackets because the jury is out. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Westeros needed to be 'ready' for a new Targ. If some of the most cunning minds on Planetos held back for a few years then it stands to reason that Ned would of been out of his depth.

Ned is trying to keep Jon's head attached to his body. And safeguard his family from the backlash of harboring what is effectively a fugitive. It really is that simple. 

How is telling a 14/15 year old in our time that they're an orphan who was adopted insane? Legit question.

Whether Jon is the son of Ned or Rhaegar he's still a bastard. So I don't know what difference it makes other than the enormity of his potential claim should he attempt to press it. 

And you said it yourself: WAR. Ned had already seen enough of war. Seen enough to know that it doesn't help anyone. He's seen enough misery and bloodshed to know that Jon's true claim would only bring more grief and agony and more death. Even if the North was sympathetic to the Targaryen's (they're not) he'd attract ambitious lords who had their own agenda. He'd be a figure head for another rebellion and a target for the IT. We see what Cersei intends for Robert's bastards... 

Ned, lied to Jon. It's not pretty. The Wall does suck. But he had a chance at some kind of life. The alternative would of been death. We see early on in aGoT that Robert was willing to use a FM to kill Dany. Who was on the other side of the world! Imagine if he had learned his beloved friend Eddard Stark had been harboring Rhaegars kid this entire time? Robert's wrath would of been epic.

I feel bad for Jon but the truth would of meant disaster. 

Telling a 14/15 year old he was the rigbtful heir to a throne (given similar circumstances as jon) in todays world would be mental. 

Telling jon and telling everyone aren't the same thing either you make it sound like tellling jon is the same as everyone finding out which its not. 

Jon has a choice while in the nights watch to leave and try avenge ned, and help rob etc or stay, he chooses to stay, and rarely even thinks of them in all truth, so i think he could of handled being told he was lyannas son via rhaegar and that he was or wasnt in fact a bastard.

Given the way jon masters his emotions in the case of ned/rob above it shows he could of handled the reveal of his identity as well and not went raising armies like you imply above imo

[Ygrain]

4 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Jon has a choice while in the nights watch to leave and try avenge ned, and help rob etc or stay, he chooses to stay,

You mean, like when his friends made him see he actually didn't have a choice?

Also, Ned didn't possess a crystal ball to see this, so he couldn't have based his decision on actually knowing. All he knew was that he would put a boy of fourteen into a deep identity crisis, burden him with knowledge of terrible danger should anyone else find out, and risk that the boy might develop some illusions of grandeur and decide to reclaim his "right". The outcome - Jon will know who he is but the knowledge won't make him happy, quite the contrary.

[IronBars]

On 1/25/2018 at 2:01 PM, Ygrain said:

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.

Doesn't really sound much like a man who would give himself a pass for lying, no matter the reason, and it is definitely not up to you to decide what constitutes a price for keeping promises. Ned tells you here explicitely that he is troubled by his lies, and that he has perpetuated those lies during the last fourteen years. If not RLJ, then what is Ned lying about and why does it bother him so much?

In the other thread, I stated that Cat wasn't treating Jon terribly. Here, I was referring to the trauma of not knowing his mother's identity which we see in Jon's PoVs time and again. If you don't think that Cat felt miserable because her husband had cheated on her and made her live with his bastard under one roof, feel free to replace it with another word, but the fact that Ned prayed to the gods that Cat might forgive him should tell you that Ned didn't expect her to take it easy.

That is still not paying a price, living with choices you made is what everyone has always done, living with your choices and paying a price for them is vastly different, 

Ned and cat seemed to have a great relationship, all in all, the one dark spot was jon.

Im sure ned wanted cat to forgive him for lying to her for 14/15 years about jon rather then for believing jon was his bastard.

They went on to have 4 more children so looks the issue of jon was the size of a thorn in a football pitch full of rose petals rather then a shoe in a shoebox,

[IronBars]

10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You mean, like when his friends made him see he actually didn't have a choice?

Also, Ned didn't possess a crystal ball to see this, so he couldn't have based his decision on actually knowing. All he knew was that he would put a boy of fourteen into a deep identity crisis, burden him with knowledge of terrible danger should anyone else find out, and risk that the boy might develop some illusions of grandeur and decide to reclaim his "right". The outcome - Jon will know who he is but the knowledge won't make him happy, quite the contrary.

He didnt try leave again did he ?

As for the rest, i assume ned would of known something of jons character ? So should of seen he could handle it, 

Also ned had no problem leaving him find out how far the watch had fallen only after went there, did he ? Which also would of hit jon like an anvil. 

[Ygrain]

34 minutes ago, IronBars said:

He didnt try leave again did he ?

As for the rest, i assume ned would of known something of jons character ? So should of seen he could handle it, 

Also ned had no problem leaving him find out how far the watch had fallen only after went there, did he ? Which also would of hit jon like an anvil. 

How do you know that someone will handle an issue of a magnitude they'd never dealt with before? No-one can know, until they are tested. Take Ned - he loved Lyanna with all his heart, yet on her deathbed, she wasn't sure if he would make the promise, she was watching him with fear. 

As for the miserable state of the Watch, I don't think we can establish for sure how much Ned knew. Plus, Benjen didn't seem to be suffering in the least, so what exactly are you arguing? Jon's biggest problem was Alliser Thorne but other than that, it's not like Jon was mistreated there, and once he got his head out of his ass, he was much better off.

38 minutes ago, IronBars said:

That is still not paying a price, living with choices you made is what everyone has always done, living with your choices and paying a price for them is vastly different, 

That's nonsense. If someone is troubled by the choices they have made, their troubled conscience is the price they paid for making those choices. Stop trying to redefine meanings, it's really unconvincing.

Quote

Ned and cat seemed to have a great relationship, all in all, the one dark spot was jon.

Yes, they did have a great relationship. And yet we know from Cat's PoV how much that single dark spot weighed on her.

Quote

Im sure ned wanted cat to forgive him for lying to her for 14/15 years about jon rather then for believing jon was his bastard.

Then you're wrong, because this is a much earlier scene, from Bran's vision:

Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

Quote

They went on to have 4 more children so looks the issue of jon was the size of a thorn in a football pitch full of rose petals rather then a shoe in a shoebox,

Really, your attempts to downplay everything are becoming rather annoying. It is not your perceptions that matter but what the text says, and the text shows Cat uncomfortable with Jon all the time.

[IronBars]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

How do you know that someone will handle an issue of a magnitude they'd never dealt with before? No-one can know, until they are tested. Take Ned - he loved Lyanna with all his heart, yet on her deathbed, she wasn't sure if he would make the promise, she was watching him with fear. 

Do you deliberately misreaf what i say or what ? I said the fact how he handled his family (he knew) being wiped out proved he could of handled the truth of his identity. And that ned knowing jon character should of seen that.

How you can dispute that is beyond me.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for the miserable state of the Watch, I don't think we can establish for sure how much Ned knew. Plus, Benjen didn't seem to be suffering in the least, so what exactly are you arguing? Jon's biggest problem was Alliser Thorne but other than that, it's not like Jon was mistreated there, and once he got his head out of his ass, he was

Trying to say ned was ignorant to the state of the watch is not believeable, i dont have the book to hand but im sure tyrion told him about the state of the watch, so if tyrion new in kingdoms landing new the state of the watch, you try say didnt ?

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's nonsense. If someone is troubled by the choices they have made, their troubled conscience is the price they paid for making those choices. Stop trying to redefine meanings, it's really unconvincing.

Refine meanings ?  to experience the bad result of something you have done:

That is the definition of pay the price in english oxford dictionary, for ned to have a troubled conscious over lying to people about jon is not paying the price. If you think troubled sleep and a gulty conscious is paying a price for saving his nephews life then you obviously have a different definition.

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

.Yes, they did have a great relationship. And yet we know from Cat's PoV how much that single dark spot weighed on her.

Then you're wrong, because this is a much earlier scene, from Bran's vision:

Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

 

That doesnt refute what i said in the slightest

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Really, your attempts to downplay everything are becoming rather annoying. It is not your perceptions that matter but what the text says, and the text shows Cat uncomfortable with Jon all the time.

Lol im not down playing anything you put an over emphasis on what cat feels, another poster pointed out that cat in general wasnt nasty to jon, cant remember who, said grrm confirmed the scene where she is nasty to jon at brans bedside was a rarity rather then the norm.

[Ygrain]

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Do you deliberately misreaf what i say or what ? I said the fact how he handled his family (he knew) being wiped out proved he could of handled the truth of his identity. And that ned knowing jon character should of seen that.

And I'm telling you that handling one situation doesn't mean that the person would handle another situation, and that you cannot be sure about the outcome unless the person has already been through a similar trial. You're merely using hindsight to support your point.

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

How you can dispute that is beyond me.

Trying to say ned was ignorant to the state of the watch is not believeable, i dont have the book to hand but im sure tyrion told him about the state of the watch, so if tyrion new in kingdoms landing new the state of the watch, you try say didnt ?

I'll be most happy to provide the passage in the morning - if the passage with Tyrion during the journey or at Castle Black is what you have in mind. Which, in both cases, illustrate Tyrion's knowledge after he left Winterfell, so again, hindsight.

Plus, you keep ignoring the point that Ned's own brother didn't seem particularly downtrodden by the situation in the Watch, or that Waymar Royce was no criminal, either.

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Refine meanings ?  to experience the bad result of something you have done:

That is the definition of pay the price in english oxford dictionary,

Really?

An unwelcome experience or action undergone or done as a condition of achieving an objective. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/price

the unpleasant results that you must accept or experience for getting or doing something: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/price

To accept the consequences of one's actions or misdeeds. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pay+the+price

Please, don't presume to school me on linguistics.

 

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

for ned to have a troubled conscious over lying to people about jon is not paying the price. If you think troubled sleep and a gulty conscious is paying a price for saving his nephews life then you obviously have a different definition.

Ned is a person who values honesty, and now he has to lie all the time, has to break his moral codes. If you don't see how this might trouble him, or that there are people for whom the end doesn't justify the means, is not my problem.

 

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

That doesnt refute what i said in the slightest

Once again, you spoke in retrospect about Ned feeling guilty 14 years later. The scene shows Ned with all those years ahead. It is not conclusive, but it doesn't mean what you claimed, either.

 

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Lol im not down playing anything you put an over emphasis on what cat feels,

You downplay or exaggerate as it fits you to wave away arguments for which you don't really have a counterpoint. 

28 minutes ago, IronBars said:

another poster pointed out that cat in general wasnt nasty to jon, cant remember who, said grrm confirmed the scene where she is nasty to jon at brans bedside was a rarity rather then the norm.

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn/

 

[snow is the man]

On 1/25/2018 at 8:41 PM, Therae said:

If RLJ, then telling Cat would not necessarily have improved anything. Cat's first priority was the well-being of her family. Knowing how much Robert hated Targaryans, particularly Rhaegar, knowing what havoc the Blackfyres caused the Targaryans (they are, after all, one of her internal arguments against legitimizing Jon), and knowing that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she would have doubled down on her pressure to get Jon away from Winterfell, and probably even urged Ned to just hand Jon over to Robert, because she would be frantic at the idea that Robert would consider raising Jon to be treason, as has been mentioned above, and come after the whole family. It would not matter to her if no one else knew; she was not often rational when considering potential threats to her offspring, and also she tended to be convinced that nobody understood these things like she did (witness her frantic need to convince Ned that he could not refuse Robert's offer to make him Hand and betroth Joffrey to Sansa). As later events with Jaime turned out, though Ned would never know it, Cat would have been pretty darn likely to wrap Jon in a bow and send him to Robert with her compliments within minutes of learning who he really was.

I've always been a bit baffled that Ned didn't know perfectly well that if it ever came to Jon's life or her own children, Cat wouldn't hesitate to cut Jon's throat herself.

she doesn't hate jon because of her "families wellbeing" she hates him because she feels humiliated by him. Her argument about giving him legitamacy is more about her hatred of him. And they could never hand jon over because then  robert would have seen ned as a traitor.

[Therae]

16 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

she doesn't hate jon because of her "families wellbeing" she hates him because she feels humiliated by him. Her argument about giving him legitamacy is more about her hatred of him. And they could never hand jon over because then  robert would have seen ned as a traitor.

This was specifically addressing why Ned wouldn't have told Cat if Jon were Rhaegar and Lyanna's. If that were true, and Ned were to have told her, it wouldn't be an issue of hating Jon because he is Ned's son by another woman, because she would know that he isn't.

But I disagree that her concerns about legitimizing him are just because she hates him, and consider the lengths she does go to--while pretty much disregarding the consequences--for her family. This is the woman who released Jaime Lannister, the most important hostage the King her son had, on the fairly slim hope that it would get her daughters back. If she were to have been told that Jon was actually Rhaegar's son, it would not have been out of character for her to panic at the thought of what Robert would do if he ever found out, and begged Ned to get rid of him. And if she knew and Ned left her alone for a minute, she might very well have taken it upon herself. Maybe she wouldn't actually turn him over to Robert, but she might have if it seemed like the best way to mitigate the potential disaster of him finding out some other way. Her thought would have been to avoid the king's wrath. If she were thinking clearly, she could have explained that Ned saved Jon for his sister's sake or something, who knows, but thinking clearly when confronted with situations that put her children at risk is not really her style, and her reactions have tended to put them even further at risk. She let everything go when Bran was in a coma. She left Bran and Rickon and Robb to fend for themselves to make sure that Ned knew about the catspaw and the dagger. She left Bran and Rickon alone altogether to stay with Robb. And she released Jaime F'ing Lannister to try to ransom Sansa and Arya.

I do not think she would have been relieved to learn that Jon was actually the son of the man Robert hated most in the world. I don't believe she would have felt any warmer towards Jon, just less personally insulted. And maybe not even that, because she probably would have still resented Ned for putting his own children at risk for a promise made to his dead sister. And I don't think she would have been all that rational about pre-empting the potential danger to her own children from letting him grow up with them. But I do think that it's a ferocious protectiveness of her own that motivates her, even if she is erratic about it, and that is also at the heart of why she resents Jon as Ned's bastard who looks more like him than his trueborn children.

[IronBars]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And I'm telling you that handling one situation doesn't mean that the person would handle another situation, and that you cannot be sure about the outcome unless the person has already been through a similar trial. You're merely using hindsight to support your point.I

Ok, finding out your family was wiped out, and finding out who you thought were your family arent infact your family in the way you thought are similiar in the sense there is a loss, the senss of loss is similiar because in both scenarios he experiences that. That is why you can parallel it, while its not the exact same its similiar enough to use.

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I'll be most happy to provide the passage in the morning - if the passage with Tyrion during the journey or at Castle Black is what you have in mind. Which, in both cases, illustrate Tyrion's knowledge after he left Winterfell, so again, hindsight.

Im pretty sure tyrion told jon on the way to the wall implying previous knowledge as to the state of the watch, 

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Plus, you keep ignoring the point that Ned's own brother didn't seem particularly downtrodden by the situation in the Watch, or that Waymar Royce was no criminal, either.

I dont ignore it, its just not relevant to whether ned should of told jon or not

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

.Really?

An unwelcome experience or action undergone or done as a condition of achieving an objective. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/price

the unpleasant results that you must accept or experience for getting or doing something: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/price

To accept the consequences of one's actions or misdeeds. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pay+the+price

Please, don't presume to school me on linguistics.

There are numerous definitions of it, i gave you the one i was using. Each one you shown there still supports my point btw,  the idiom paying the price refers to an actual price, a sleepless night or gulit for lying is not paying a price,

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ned is a person who values honesty, and now he has to lie all the time, has to break his moral codes. If you don't see how this might trouble him, or that there are people for whom the end doesn't justify the means, is not my problem.

 

Once again, you spoke in retrospect about Ned feeling guilty 14 years later. The scene shows Ned with all those years ahead. It is not conclusive, but it doesn't mean what you claimed, either.

 

Ok first paragraph - that has no relevance whatsoever, a gulity conscious is not paying the price for your actions.

2nd - that could of been 6 months after the initial lie, 2 years, 5 years etc, so doesnt refute my point in the slightest.

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You downplay or exaggerate as it fits you to wave away arguments for which you don't really have a counterpoint. 

 

Actually this is what you do when you say why ned didnt tell jon, civil war etc, as i said 20 times now, telling jon isnt telling everyone, 

 

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn/

 

You keep changing your arguement on how cat was with jon to try and cut under the points i make, first she was miserable, then she wasnt, then she was horrible to jon then she wasnt, you change it depending on what i say, which makes it seem your only saying it to counter what i say so you dont need to examine your theory

 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

But Jon is Ned's... He couldn't tell him about Ashara. She is with Aegon who had to be hidden till it was time to reveal him.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 2:36 PM, Widow's Watch said:

This is a show thing, not a book thing. 

Jon and Ned have a total of zero conversations in the books thus far, which is a little bit jarring.

I think Robert could have easily turned on Ned had he found out what Ned was keeping from him. The fact that he is certain Robert would kill Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella, children he believed were his says a lot about what he might have done with Jon if he found out the truth. And Cersei's influence is not someone we should neglect in this equation. 

Ned's thought progression in this is really interesting, from Aegon's smashed in head to Lyanna and Sansa's pleas.

 

I stand corrected . He is my blood that is all you need to know . And if R+L=J is true what would he inherited but an assassin's dagger in the back courtesy of Tywin .