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Police violence... when will people see that better training and tactics are essential


Ser Scot A Ellison

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1 hour ago, Sword of Doom said:

You're a white man, that's why.

The entire system they are built upon and how they operate upholds bigotry. Their training shows they are just state sanctioned murderers, and society lets them off the hook quite a lot thanks to hero worship and the fetishizing of so called heroes.
 

I absolutely agree and understand that my position in society influences my opinions.  I don't call all police "hero's" and I see the damage that many of them are doing (hence my desire to see the vast majority of Police in the US disarmed).  If you don't believe my proposal goes far enough what do you suggest we do in addition to disarming most police?

I'm sincerely curious to hear how would you address the problem?  

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2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I absolutely agree and understand that my position in society influences my opinions.  I don't call all police "hero's" and I see the damage that many of them are doing (hence my desire to see the vast majority of Police in the US disarmed).  If you don't believe my proposal goes far enough what do you suggest we do in addition to disarming most police?

I'm sincerely curious to hear how would you address the problem?  

Over 300 million people in this country do something heroic every day, and that's live in a democracy.

But there's a difference between being heroic and being a hero.

Be a hero, Scot. Vote Democrat.

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5 minutes ago, Pony Empress Jace said:

Over 300 million people in this country do something heroic every day, and that's live in a democracy.

But there's a difference between being heroic and being a hero.

Be a hero, Scot. Vote Democrat.

Perhaps.  What do you think of converting US police to the Armed Response Unit method like they use in the UK?

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Perhaps.  What do you think of converting US police to the Armed Response Unit method like they use in the UK?

Jace is of the opinion that all these state and county level police departments need to be dissolved and reorganized in a standardized analytics based deployment meant to ensure optimal coverage of populations with the minimum required number of law enforcement officers.

All 'undercover' vehicles should be sold or refitted into clearly designated Law Enforcement personnel carriers. Every 'street' officer should be armed with two magazines of rubber bullets in lieu of whatever conventional ammunition carried.

All officers should wear bodycams, the malfunction of which should be interpreted as an intent to obstruct justice, and should undergo rigorous emotional and psychological screening on a semi-annual basis. 

That's off the top of my head.

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8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Perhaps.  What do you think of converting US police to the Armed Response Unit method like they use in the UK?

Might not work as well as you hope since police departments seem fond of using SWAT teams to serve search warrants and in similar low-risk scenarios.

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17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Perhaps.  What do you think of converting US police to the Armed Response Unit method like they use in the UK?

I'd say it's pretty similar to what Hunter S. Thompson proposed when he ran for Sheriff of Aspen (yes, the ski resort) in 1970. Back then, the area was just beginning to get hypercommercialized and Thompson ran on a platform devoted to running land developers and rich tourists out of town.

He had this to say about the wisdom of arming cops:

Quote

The Sheriff and his Deputies should never be armed in public. Every urban riot, shoot-out and blood-bath (involving guns) in recent memory has been set off by some trigger-happy cop in a fear frenzy.

So, in 1970, at least one libertarian Southern white man understood the danger of armed cops being ruled by fear.

He did promise that anyone who did harm a cop would have hell rained down on then. I believe wolverines were promised.

He and a young lawyer running for mayor got within a few dozen votes of winning, after the Republicans and Democrats agreed not to run against each other so they could unify against Thompson's "Freak Power" campaign.

The entire platform and the full saga is documented in various HST books, but Wikipedia has a decent summary.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Aspen

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8 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'd say it's pretty similar to what Hunter S. Thompson proposed when he ran for Sheriff of Aspen (yes, the ski resort) in 1970. Back then, the area was just beginning to get hypercommercialized and Thompson ran on a platform devoted to running land developers and rich tourists out of town.

He had this to say about the wisdom of arming cops:

So, in 1970, at least one libertarian Southern white man understood the danger of armed cops being ruled by fear.

He did promise that anyone who did harm a cop would have hell rained down on then. I believe wolverines were promised.

He and a young lawyer running for mayor got within a few dozen votes of winning, after the Republicans and Democrats agreed not to run against each other so they could unify against Thompson's "Freak Power" campaign.

The entire platform and the full saga is documented in various HST books, but Wikipedia has a decent summary.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_Aspen

Interesting.  I do agree that most police need to be disarmed.  I do see (TM) the problem with SWAT teams but I cannot see a fully disarmed police force having the ability to keep the peace in the US.  We, the civilian population, are too heavily armed for that to work.  So, I see ARU’s as a workable compromise.

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3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Perhaps.  What do you think of converting US police to the Armed Response Unit method like they use in the UK?

I worry, Scot, that this doesn't change the mentality enough--it allows the SWAT attitude to remain. I think Armed Response Units should be filled with non-prior service officers who have gone through a structurally different kind of police training that requires something like: the first two years of police service is spent in the community without a weapon and in assistance of the citizens around them. No tickets, no citations. Walking the beat, talking to people, helping change tires. Real service. A true sense of helping people.

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26 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I worry, Scot, that this doesn't change the mentality enough--it allows the SWAT attitude to remain. I think Armed Response Units should be filled with non-prior service officers who have gone through a structurally different kind of police training that requires something like: the first two years of police service is spent in the community without a weapon and in assistance of the citizens around them. No tickets, no citations. Walking the beat, talking to people, helping change tires. Real service. A true sense of helping people.

Your worry is reasonable and I like your idea.  Police need to be members of their community first and members of their fraternity second.

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The U.S. system ends up with people shot dead who are guilty of running away from police where those people are guilty of having a non functioning brake light, multiple people in jail for out of date drug laws, with no understanding of harm reduction, Black football stars threatened with death for running away from a shooting threat, and Republicans cheering for the deaths of cognitively impaired inmates. More money for profit prisons ( keep people in for a stupid  amount of time) and blood lust politicians. Pick poorly educated and trained police for this crap. Pardon torture prone sheriffs. Choose a president who routinely lies under oath, incites violence, picks lickspittle scumbags/family for important posts-and undermines the judiciary U.S.A. U.S.A

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23 hours ago, Lord of Oop North said:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4162543/video-police-standoff-toronto-van-attack/

 

This Toronto cop shows you how to descalate a situation. Incredible. I can't believe the suspect was not killed.

And has been criticised by multiple US academics, you have to laugh.

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12 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

American policemen are trained in escalation, powerball and slimeball tactics, and mandatory sentencing.

I'm sure there are specialists in de escalation, hidden away somewhere.

Toronto policeman, props.

The few American cops who de-escalate get fired before they can infect the rest of the department with their dangerously peaceful ideas.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/police-officer-wins-settlement-city-fired-him

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59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What is the basis for criticism?

Michael Lyman, professor of Criminal Justice Administration at Columbia College of Missouri, told the BBC that the officer may have had a "duty" to kill the suspect.

"Assuming the suspect is holding a gun and pointing it toward officers, it is concerning that the officer is not engaging the suspect with deadly force," he said.

Professor Lyman said that the officer might not have opened fire out of fear of public criticism after the event.

"People died as a result of the suspect's actions. Can we assume that the officer knew this? If so, this changes things a bit in that the level of public threat is higher. Under this circumstance, it would seem that the officer had a 'duty' to respond with deadly force - assuming what he was holding was a firearm," he said.

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9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

The few American cops who de-escalate get fired before they can infect the rest of the department with their dangerously peaceful ideas.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police-practices/police-officer-wins-settlement-city-fired-him

That was a great outcome.  More police need to put down their weapons and start treating people like human beings.

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7 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Michael Lyman, professor of Criminal Justice Administration at Columbia College of Missouri, told the BBC that the officer may have had a "duty" to kill the suspect.

"Assuming the suspect is holding a gun and pointing it toward officers, it is concerning that the officer is not engaging the suspect with deadly force," he said.

Professor Lyman said that the officer might not have opened fire out of fear of public criticism after the event.

"People died as a result of the suspect's actions. Can we assume that the officer knew this? If so, this changes things a bit in that the level of public threat is higher. Under this circumstance, it would seem that the officer had a 'duty' to respond with deadly force - assuming what he was holding was a firearm," he said.

Wow.  Sounds like the jackass, Dave Grossman, in “Conditioned Response.”.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That was a great outcome.  More police need to put down their weapons and start treating people like human beings.

Many cops seem to be able to treat white mass shooters like human beings.

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