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Was Stannis wise to select Davos as his hand?


Varysblackfyre321

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I was following this thread

 (in hopes of perhaps something new could be gleaned from a conversation that has been done to death), and I sorta did.

Some posters posited Stannis was acting nepotistic with his appointment of Davos as his hand. 

Now, full disclosure I'm not really a fan of Stannis, I don't hate the guy (for he is a very complex charachter with as much good as bad) I just find him to be "meh".

But I always liked his appointment of Davos well mostly because Davos is pretty awesome and Stannis could always expect honest council from the man and expect Davos will always put his king's interests first.

But some posters have stated Davos wasn't the best qualified for the position and pointed out what he's been doing as Hand isn't really that much diffrent from what we saw him doing for Stannis when we first see him in ACOK; he acted Stannis's diplomat/messenger boy when he was just a lord and Davos is still pretty much pretty being that; his promotion seems to be only nominal.

And upon further reflection I realize Davos doesn't seem to be the type a person that would ld be expected to be a hand; and not just because of he's a former smuggler.

Hes never been taught how to manage a land, how to treat with lords as a lord, he's not a politician or a military commander(though the latter may be not so important), and he can't read. 

Now again Davos is awesome but these are things a hand needs to be or should be able to do. 

 

So was Stannis right to pick him?

 

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Septon Baarth was a nepotistic pick, he was a close friend of Jaehaerys I and was picked over hundreds of more qualified picks and turned out to be the greatest Hand in the three hundred years of Westeros.

Davos could turn out to be an even greater Hand, but as Stannis' best friend (perhaps only friend) he is indeed a pick of nepotism

Quote

 

nepotism
ˈnɛpətɪz(ə)m/
noun
 
  1. the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.

 

 
People in the fandom seem to think nepotism is bad yet before the industrial revolution it was the norm and it was the norm for a reason, it almost guaranteed a safe passage of power, 
 
Stannis is as guilty of this as any one else, he picks his friends and family over the best qualified. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, but to suggest he is a revolutionary because he picks a man clearly not qualified is clearly ignoringing the text.

 

 

 

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Davos is a wonderful character and serves Stannis in more than simple tasks.  We need to keep in mind that Davos is uneducated and spent his life on the sea as opposed to landlubbing.   He sympathized with Stannis' straits at Storm's End--that is why he smuggled food in.  He couldn't bear the thought of all those people, his lords, starving to death.  He's a loyal humanitarian.  

A Hand needs more education than Davos currently possesses.   That said, Davos is relatively uncorrupted even at this late stage in the game.   An incorruptible Hand would serve any realm well.  Davos believes, but not to the point of allowing innocents to die for Stannis' Red God that even he knows Stannis doesn't really believe in.   Davos has as much faith in Stannis as Stannis himself, but he cannot accept Melisandre's advice for furthering Stannis' cause.   Really, what is the difference between sacrificing 4 sons to a battle and burning someone else's nephew to ensure success?  

Davos understands that he's not worthy to be Hand.  He is a humble man of extraordinary talent, diplomacy ranking very high on that list.  Still he fights with Stannis' other main adviser.  All this plus and minus tallying I would still like to see Davos act as Hand for the realm.  Are the lords and ladies of the court ready for an honest man?  Nope.   All the more reason to hope for it.   Davos as Hand would make great strides in closing that aristocratic to small folk void.  

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For all his flaws, which Davos is aware, he's loyal, reliable and ardently dedicated to Stannis' cause. Furthermore he doesn't bring the traits of the aristocratic society than Stannis hates to the table and is genuinely honest. If this makes for a suitable hand or not is debatable, but as things stood, who else does Stannis even have?

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7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Davos is a wonderful character and serves Stannis in more than simple tasks.  We need to keep in mind that Davos is uneducated and spent his life on the sea as opposed to landlubbing.   He sympathized with Stannis' straits at Storm's End--that is why he smuggled food in.  He couldn't bear the thought of all those people, his lords, starving to death.  He's a loyal humanitarian.  

A Hand needs more education than Davos currently possesses.   That said, Davos is relatively uncorrupted even at this late stage in the game.   An incorruptible Hand would serve any realm well.  Davos believes, but not to the point of allowing innocents to die for Stannis' Red God that even he knows Stannis doesn't really believe in.   Davos has as much faith in Stannis as Stannis himself, but he cannot accept Melisandre's advice for furthering Stannis' cause.   Really, what is the difference between sacrificing 4 sons to a battle and burning someone else's nephew to ensure success?  

Davos understands that he's not worthy to be Hand.  He is a humble man of extraordinary talent, diplomacy ranking very high on that list.  Still he fights with Stannis' other main adviser.  All this plus and minus tallying I would still like to see Davos act as Hand for the realm.  Are the lords and ladies of the court ready for an honest man?  Nope.   All the more reason to hope for it.   Davos as Hand would make great strides in closing that aristocratic to small folk void.  

There are some problems you forgot.

How could davos deal with someone like littlefinger that knows how to swindle Money? Even if davos is honest when will he have the ability to know when more educated men are lieing to him?

Then how deep does he understand the political games? If he is played by someone it could have huge consequences...

And has davos ever been responsable for some place? Like he knows how to manage a city for example?

I think davos is honest, loyal and has the right moral compass for someone like stannis. However he doesn t have the skills needed to be a good hand. But with the right small council he could shine... I think in order to say if stannis choose wisely we would need to know whoever he wants in the other positions in the small council...

 

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Davos is an excellent choice as Hand for the situation Stannis is currently in. Why would Davos need to know about managing lands, holding court, doing the social yada yada? Stannis is not sitting in King's Landing on the Iron Throne. What Stannis needs right now is someone who knows and understands people, who can tell who's lying, and above all, who has a strong sense of ethics. Stannis knows he's been seduced (also literally, multiple times) by Melisandre; he feels the lure of vast powers - and he recognizes that Davos serves as his anchor to both reality and decency.

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Just now, zandru said:

Davos is an excellent choice as Hand for the situation Stannis is currently in. Why would Davos need to know about managing lands, holding court, doing the social yada yada? Stannis is not sitting in King's Landing on the Iron Throne. What Stannis needs right now is someone who knows and understands people, who can tell who's lying, and above all, who has a strong sense of ethics. Stannis knows he's been seduced (also literally, multiple times) by Melisandre; he feels the lure of vast powers - and he recognizes that Davos serves as his anchor to both reality and decency.

However the hand's job is much more than being an ambassor or the kings moral compass. If stannis ever becomes king davos would need to know how to manage a city/kingdoms, have a deeper understanding of politic, a broadened education... Unless you think stannis should change his hand after the war.

I think davos would be better suited as stannis most important advisor than his hand... Because in reality that is davos role...

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21 minutes ago, zandru said:

Davos is an excellent choice as Hand for the situation Stannis is currently in. Why would Davos need to know about managing lands, holding court, doing the social yada yada? Stannis is not sitting in King's Landing on the Iron Throne. What Stannis needs right now is someone who knows and understands people, who can tell who's lying, and above all, who has a strong sense of ethics. Stannis knows he's been seduced (also literally, multiple times) by Melisandre; he feels the lure of vast powers - and he recognizes that Davos serves as his anchor to both reality and decency.

That sums it up completely.  For the situation Stannis is currently in.  

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57 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Davos is a wonderful character and serves Stannis in more than simple tasks.  We need to keep in mind that Davos is uneducated and spent his life on the sea as opposed to landlubbing.   He sympathized with Stannis' straits at Storm's End--that is why he smuggled food in.  He couldn't bear the thought of all those people, his lords, starving to death.  He's a loyal humanitarian.  

 

eh? Is this what Stannis fans really believe? GRRM clearly does not see it like that

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Quote

 

Q: During Robert's rebellion, what brought a simple smuggler like Davos to take sides in the war by helping Stannis and the starving garrison at Storm's End?

(George laughs) Because he had onions! And so he thought to himself: "Where can I sell these at the best price? If I take them to King's Landing they'll pay me the price of onions, but i I take them to people duing of hunger they'd certainly pay me better."

 

Serving Stannis has elevated Davos from commoner to noble (similar to the Cleganes and the Lannisters) so there is every reason why Davos is indescribably loyal. Take away Stannis' patronage and Davos and his sons are back to being common scum. 

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 I think we're forgetting the biggest reason he's the perfect choice for Stan the man.

 Stan is not going to ask him to pen letters  or make marriage proposals...  Remember how shitty that worked out?  He wants his honest counsel. 

 While that may seem like a no-brainer,   Finding someone to do that for stannis is nearly impossible.  But Ser Daavos Seaworth never even flinches... Like when he called him out on picking Robert > Aerys

Stannis is as hands on for a king as we see, meaning Davos doesn't need to rewrite a lot of laws and stuff.

What Stannis needs is a trustworthy right hand who NO MATTER the situation will give him his honest opinion and furthermore a hand with the balls to tell the king himself that he is screwing up and that it's not ok.

Davos persuaded Stannis to go north, he is absolutely the perfect choice (for Stannis) 

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4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

For all his flaws, which Davos is aware, he's loyal, reliable and ardently dedicated to Stannis' cause. Furthermore he doesn't bring the traits of the aristocratic society than Stannis hates to the table and is genuinely honest. If this makes for a suitable hand or not is debatable, but as things stood, who else does Stannis even have?

But what has he done as hand or could be expected to do that he couldn't have done prior to his promotion?

If literaly no one else is qualified(doubtful), you know having a hand is more a custom than obligation that must be met in a reasonably short-period of time.

Stannis realistically could hold off appointing anyone from being his hand and the mean time have Davos his master of ships.

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I like the Davos pick by Stannis, and not just because I like the character.

If I were king I think I too would appoint as hand someone from my direct vessels, someone who's loyalty is more secure than a Lord from one of the great houses. A hand like Davos is no threat to stannis, a hand like Tywin was a threat to aryes, and honestly a hand like Ned could have been a threat to Robert, imagine if he were a different man and was swayed by Cersie's charms.

Those are just two examples from the main text, the world book is full of other examples( looking at you house hightower) of hands from houses whos money and power can rival the hand, the hand nearly always(except good old ned) they use thier postion to advance thier own house over the crown.

Very good topic btw....have not seen this discussed all that much

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Is this what Stannis fans really believe? GRRM clearly does not see it like that

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Serving Stannis has elevated Davos from commoner to noble (similar to the Cleganes and the Lannisters) so there is every reason why Davos is indescribably loyal. Take away Stannis' patronage and Davos and his sons are back to being common scum. 

Dude, I don't know why you think I will sit back and let you just troll me.   I asked you not to speak to me anymore.  I am entitled to my opinion.  Davos' ability to understand the worth of goods only speaks to his managerial skills.  You are so busy being a jackass you aren't stopping to consider the tone anything is written in nor the words actually written.   One more quote with nasty remarks and I will ask for moderators.   I'm done with you.   You are the only person I've ever had on an ignore list now leave me alone.

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Is this what Stannis fans really believe? GRRM clearly does not see it like that

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Serving Stannis has elevated Davos from commoner to noble (similar to the Cleganes and the Lannisters) so there is every reason why Davos is indescribably loyal. Take away Stannis' patronage and Davos and his sons are back to being common scum. 

Huh. It appears I have mixed up show cannon with the books' again.

Show Davos was a pure humanitarian in his endeavor to feed those starving men.

Book Davos while still a pretty decent guy was still looking for profit-after all the guy has a family to feed. 

 

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I think Stannis was stuck between a rock and a hard place when he chose Davos; Davos was illiterate when he became Hand and remember, being Hand means being basically a ruler, right after the King. If the King is incapacitated or not present at court, the Hand becomes the temporary ruler, which is a huge responsibility. If Stannis needs to be somewhere and needs Davos to be rule in his place, that could be trouble.

However, Davos is not only fiercely loyal to Stannis, but he also has the guts to tell Stannis when a plan doesn't seem good, and this is a quality that a Hand not only should have, but also MUST have. A King is not perfect and can make mistakes and needs someone to tell him that he's wrong. Davos said no to Stannis and told him that he was making a mistake when all the other lords just nodded and agreed.

To summarize: Davos, at the time when he became Hand, had no education and no experience in ruling, but he has the guts to tell his King when he's making a huge mistake, which is a quality that many in Stannis' court lack.

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Dude, I don't know why you think I will sit back and let you just troll me.   I asked you not to speak to me anymore.  I am entitled to my opinion.  Davos' ability to understand the worth of goods only speaks to his managerial skills.  You are so busy being a jackass you aren't stopping to consider the tone anything is written in nor the words actually written.   One more quote with nasty remarks and I will ask for moderators.   I'm done with you.   You are the only person I've ever had on an ignore list now leave me alone.

It's absurd how hostile it's gotten lately no names but I've seen 1 other person giving you (and me) a "hard time" and acting like there's always a definitive answer (usually their opinion)

"you aren't stopping to consider the tone anything is written in nor the words actually written." Everyone could learn something from this. Don't let anyone under your skin. You know this series with the best of them kind sir. Please keep doin ya thing!!! 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Is this what Stannis fans really believe? GRRM clearly does not see it like that

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Serving Stannis has elevated Davos from commoner to noble (similar to the Cleganes and the Lannisters) so there is every reason why Davos is indescribably loyal. Take away Stannis' patronage and Davos and his sons are back to being common scum. 

The 2nd part is very obvious. He is the hand of a rebelling King with no real source of income. Scum tho? Really? He chopped off fingers to purge his sins.... The guys at least trying to be a better person 

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Feudalism = nepotism.

4 hours ago, divica said:

However the hand's job is much more than being an ambassor or the kings moral compass. If stannis ever becomes king davos would need to know how to manage a city/kingdoms, have a deeper understanding of politic, a broadened education... Unless you think stannis should change his hand after the war.

I think Davos would be pretty good at managing King's landing, he knew the city better than Jon Arryn for example.

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18 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I think Stannis was stuck between a rock and a hard place when he chose Davos; Davos was illiterate when he became Hand and remember, being Hand means being basically a ruler, right after the King. If the King is incapacitated or not present at court, the Hand becomes the temporary ruler, which is a huge responsibility. If Stannis needs to be somewhere and needs Davos to be rule in his place, that could be trouble.

However, Davos is not only fiercely loyal to Stannis, but he also has the guts to tell Stannis when a plan doesn't seem good, and this is a quality that a Hand not only should have, but also MUST have. A King is not perfect and can make mistakes and needs someone to tell him that he's wrong. Davos said no to Stannis and told him that he was making a mistake when all the other lords just nodded and agreed.

To summarize: Davos, at the time when he became Hand, had no education and no experience in ruling, but he has the guts to tell his King when he's making a huge mistake, which is a quality that many in Stannis' court lack.

Completely agree except he's the ONLY one in court who will call out the mannis' BS.

 I do see your point about Stannis being incapacitated but he Stannis isn't going to have any schemers around so his small council would probably be very trustworthy and could even read for the hand.

 But don't give me wrong I completely see your point and I do agree 

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