Was Stannis wise to select Davos as his hand?

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

2 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Feudalism = nepotism.

I think Davos would be pretty good at managing King's landing, he knew the city better than Jon Arryn for example.

 That's at least debatable. We don't know the full extent of Arryn's knowledge 

[Varysblackfyre321]

46 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

The 2nd part is very obvious. He is the hand of a rebelling King with no real source of income. Scum tho? Really? He chopped off fingers to purge his sins.... The guys at least trying to be a better person 

Stannis chopped off the bits of Davos' fingers on one hand. Afterwards Davos was rewarded with a lordship and his sons made squires. Davos didn't lose em because he wanted to repent for past sins. And in the eyes of society what else would they see Davos the smuggler other than common scum?

[The Sunland Lord]

Davos as a Hand is one of the wise choices Stannis has ever done.

In a court full of R'hllorists, you need someone to balance things. A voice of reason. The hand of the king should be a choice of a close man. Mutual trust and understanding is very important. 

Isn't nepotism about relatives? By the way, talking about nepotism in Westeros...

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

52 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis chopped off the bits of Davos' fingers on one hand. Afterwards Davos was rewarded with a lordship and his sons made squires. Davos didn't lose em because he wanted to repent for past sins. And in the eyes of society what else would they see Davos the smuggler other than common scum?

I mean you're right, it's more perspective if anything. But Davos is one of the few people we hear about "normal stuff" such as getting back to his wife and finish raising his kids.

I don't know his motives of getting food to Stannis but I do know he didn't do it so Devan would be a king's squire obviously. Smuggling food isn't that bad in my eyes I suppose, especially when for example Mormont is smuggling human beings. Seems a little harsh is all

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

39 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Davos as a Hand is one of the wise choices Stannis has ever done.

In a court full of R'hllorists, you need someone to balance things. A voice of reason. The hand of the king should be a choice of a close man. Mutual trust and understanding is very important. 

Isn't nepotism about relatives? By the way, talking about nepotism in Westeros...

I agree about what you said about the Rhollor court with the onion knight as a voice of reason.

The altruism he shows sticking up for Edric should never be overlooked. Not only is he going against Stannis in that debate but also the red witch in his ear also. 

Anyone so Autonomous needs a grounded person to keep them at their best

[Myrish Lace]

I'm not sure Stannis had any candidate that could offer better options than Davos.

By the time Stannis appoints Davos, Stannis is a de-facto warlord, more so than any other pretender to the Iron Throne. Stannis could benefit from a skilled diplomat a decade before the war, but currently his options are severely limited. People outside his little circle of supporters are either done, totally uninterested in supported Stannis or demand some kind of direct quid pro quo to support him. Similarly, Davos may not be the man to run the royal court in KL, but as far as the court of a rebel King he fits quite well. 

Stannis, being a nomad underdog, needs a staunch loyalist, a voice of reason to balance the creepy weirdness of Red God's cultists and a fixer to resolve his problems on the ground. And Davos can deliver on that - or at very least, he can deliver on that better than any other person in Stannis' court.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Huh. It appears I have mixed up show cannon with the books' again.

Show Davos was a pure humanitarian in his endeavor to feed those starving men.

Book Davos while still a pretty decent guy was still looking for profit-after all the guy has a family to feed. 

 

I assure you that you did not mix canons. Book Davos had no way of knowing the real "profit" that prevailed which was his knighthood.  Book Davos is an exceptional guy in spirit and deed.  One may assume book Davos to be a thrill seeker as well, but it does not detract from his character in the least.   If you feel one way or another about a character's actions that is contrary to mainstream ideas or even undertone of the written words it does not make you wrong.   Of course any time a person posts any more it is risking some conflicting idea.   That is supposed to be the beauty of conversation, but some people cannot help but forget their courtesies and reply for the sake of being contrary.   

There are no pure single motives.  

[Lady Dacey]

That's an interesting discussion! Thanks @Varysblackfyre321 for providing us with the opportunity. It was always a given for me that Davos was a great hand, but it never occurred to me to elaborate on it and now I find mylself trying to justify my first impressions, which is nice. After reading the opinions here and some consideration I've arrived at the same place I set my sails from: I believe Davos is a great hand for Stannis. 

There are two different topics I believe should be addressed order to give the OP a good answer: 

1) was the choice of Davos as Hand an act of nepotism? 

2) is Davor a good Hand of the King?

So what is nepotism (and how does it fit in Westeros, circa 300 a.c)? The very word "nepotism" emerged in the 17th century. In medieval times appointing close relatives to important positions was the norm, and not frowned upon. Of course we can, in hindsight, call medieval practices nepotic - but it's hard for me to understand how nepotistic actions could be held against a character in ASOIAF world, if that was only what was expected of them. Eddard was chosen out of nepotism and was a terrible Hand to Robert, Tyrion/Tywin were also nepotic choices and proved great Hands to Joffery. Making what we call "nepotic" choices was so much the norm, actually, that acting different from it would be considered crazy... like Stannis was when he chose Davos as Hand. See, Davos was actually chosen because of his habilities. He was not a family relative nor personal friend to Stannis, he was a respected advisor. Stannis chose him because he believe he could trust the Onion Knight to actually do a good job. We can disagree with Stannis and have an opinion that Davos was a bad choice for the office, but we can not believe Stannis chose Davos for nepotic reason - he spent a long time considering his choices and he was very rational in appointing Davos. Remember his former hand was a relative of his wife, and no Lord seemed to object it - we know Davos has experienced his fair share of contempt, and Stannis himself was frowned upon by his vassals for the choice. So of all the exemples of rulers bestowing officers on people I think Stannis choosing Davos as Hand is one of the least nepotic we've seen so far.

Now moving to the great question, is Davos a good Hand? What makes a good Hand is an important thing to have in mind when answering it. And what exactly is it? The Hand is not "master" of anything is particular. He's not responsible for the economy, nor for the military strength of the realm, he's not responsible for the sea force or the city Watch or for spying, or for the king's justice - but the Hand should oversee it all, like the King. And King and his Hand are, together, de facto rulers or the realm. For the realm to prosper under a weak king the Hand must singlehandedly manage the realm - probably what happened with Aerys/Tywin and Robert/Jon. An intelligent, committed king, on the other hand, doesn't need a hand to do all the managing for him - and I think that's the case with the Stannis/Davos duo. They trust each other and confront each other. I believe those that say Davos doesn't have the skill set to be a good Hand are undermining the importance of the small council. The Hand doesn't have to be an expert on anything. Stannis doesn't need Davos to be able to manage a state/city/realm because he knows how to do it himself, to such an extent he can either ask other things of Davos, or take the time to make him understand how he wants the realm to be managed in his absence. If Stannis becomes king he is not going to be whoring and hunting while leaving Davos to sit the Iron Throne, he is going to sit the throne himself. Stannis knows Davos is as loyal as it gets, which is absolutely necessary for being Hand, and he has a particular set of skills that are actually useful. So yeah, I'm convinced Davos is a great Hand to King Stannis, and would continue being so if Stannis were ever to sit the IT. 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

It's absurd how hostile it's gotten lately no names but I've seen 1 other person giving you (and me) a "hard time" and acting like there's always a definitive answer (usually their opinion)

"you aren't stopping to consider the tone anything is written in nor the words actually written." Everyone could learn something from this. Don't let anyone under your skin. You know this series with the best of them kind sir. Please keep doin ya thing!!! 

Ah Brother, you are so right, this type of behavior is absurd.   And for what?  Being right can't possibly be that satisfying.   Thanks for the support and encouragement.   

[Lady Dacey]

29 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That is supposed to be the beauty of conversation, but some people cannot help but forget their courtesies and reply for the sake of being contrary.   

I don't understand what brings people to be so agressive. We're all fans of the same work and we should just be making pleasant conversation, even if we disagree... and then there are people actually willing to personally atack other forum users because of divergent opinions. We should all chill and be as polite and de respectful as you are. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I don't understand what brings people to be so agressive. We're all fans of the same work and we should just be making pleasant conversation, even if we disagree... and then there are people actually willing to personally atack other forum users because of divergent opinions. We should all chill and be as polite and de respectful as you are. 

Ah sweet Lady of the Angry Ovary, perhaps my sigil is not fierce enough to frighten trolls away!  

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I mean you're right, it's more perspective if anything. But Davos is one of the few people we hear about "normal stuff" such as getting back to his wife and finish raising his kids.

I don't know his motives of getting food to Stannis but I do know he didn't do it so Devan would be a king's squire obviously. Smuggling food isn't that bad in my eyes I suppose, especially when for example Mormont is smuggling human beings. Seems a little harsh is all

He's smuggled more than food in his lifetime lol. But, a potential lordship may have been on his mind(it's happened before-peasant saves the liege lord and gets elevated to a lord), but he certianly(per Martin's words) came to profit. Now this isn't to say he's a bad guy, just that he was trying to feed his family. Still good guy.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's smuggled more than food in his lifetime lol. But, a potential lordship may have been on his mind(it's happened before-peasant saves the liege lord and gets elevated to a lord), but he certianly(per Martin's words) came to profit. Now this isn't to say he's a bad guy, just that he was trying to feed his family. Still good guy.

 I absolutely agree.  Misinterpretation on my part 

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I assure you that you did not mix canons. Book Davos had no way of knowing the real "profit" that prevailed which was his knighthood.  Book Davos is an exceptional guy in spirit and deed.  One may assume book Davos to be a thrill seeker as well, but it does not detract from his character in the least.   If you feel one way or another about a character's actions that is contrary to mainstream ideas or even undertone of the written words it does not make you wrong.   Of course any time a person posts any more it is risking some conflicting idea.   That is supposed to be the beauty of conversation, but some people cannot help but forget their courtesies and reply for the sake of being contrary.   

There are no pure single motives.  

Well it's the only stated motive Martin has really given to the actual reasons Davos had come to Storm's end risking his life. Book Davos would have every reason to think starving people would pay any thing for an ounch of food and a lord(like Stannis) would pay all the money in the fortress for a sack full of fish and onions. 

Him doing this for monetary gain isn't a detraction-it adds to it

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Well it's the only stated motive Martin has really given to the actual reasons Davos had come to Storm's end risking his life. Book Davos would have every reason to think starving people would pay any thing for an ounch of food and a lord(like Stannis) would pay all the money in the fortress for a sack full of fish and onions. 

Him doing this for monetary gain isn't a detraction-it adds to it

Agreed entirely.   You can read Davos and make up your mind about him.   GRRM gives a statement that I take as merely the tip of the iceberg.  There is a great deal to the Onion Kinight. 

[Quoth the raven,]

He could do worse.  Stan is not exactly surrounded by highly capable administrators.  In fact, I'm not sure that Davos is a capable administrator.  He simply doesn't have the education and just barely learned to read.  In the end though, I don't think Davos will be called on to learn administrative and executive skills. 

[bent branch]

16 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Davos as a Hand is one of the wise choices Stannis has ever done.

In a court full of R'hllorists, you need someone to balance things. A voice of reason. The hand of the king should be a choice of a close man. Mutual trust and understanding is very important. 

Isn't nepotism about relatives? By the way, talking about nepotism in Westeros...

Yes. For people who are learning English, nepotism refers to appointing family members to important positions regardless of their qualifications. If you are looking for a word which could refer to friends or family, you should use the word cronyism.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Yes. For people who are learning English, nepotism refers to appointing family members to important positions regardless of their qualifications. If you are looking for a word which could refer to friends or family, you should use the word cronyism.

Also friends according to my own understanding of the word.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nepotism

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nepotism

But I agree, Cronyism would be a more accurate description of Davos' promotion. 

 

19 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Feudalism = nepotism.

I think Davos would be pretty good at managing King's landing, he knew the city better than Jon Arryn for example.

I'm not really sure that is backed up in the books. Davos may well know the docks and the life of a peasant better than Arryn but there is nothing to suggest he knows everything about the city better than the former Hand who likely spent more time in Kings Landing than the adult Davos did. 

 

19 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

The 2nd part is very obvious. He is the hand of a rebelling King with no real source of income. Scum tho? Really? He chopped off fingers to purge his sins.... The guys at least trying to be a better person 

I agree, Davos is one of the better people in the series. My use of scum was more in how the peasants seem to be viewed by the nobility. 

Davos is certainly incredibly proud that his sons are elevated above the life he has was born into

That is, if Stannis won his throne. If he lost . . .

Everything I am, I owe to him. Stannis had raised him to knighthood. He had given him a place of honor at his table, a war galley to sail in place of a smuggler's skiff. Dale and Allard captained galleys as well, Maric was oarmaster on the Fury, Matthos served his father on Black Betha, and the king had taken Devan as a royal squire. One day he would be knighted, and the two little lads as well. Marya was mistress of a small keep on Cape Wrath, with servants who called her m'lady, and Davos could hunt red deer in his own woods. All this he had of Stannis Baratheon, for the price of a few finger joints. It was just, what he did to me. I had flouted the king's laws all my life. He has earned my loyalty.

20 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dude, I don't know why you think I will sit back and let you just troll me.

It was not my intention There was no trolling intended there, just to point out that Davos the smuggler did what all smuggler's did and looked to make money. 

Surely if Davos' reasons were altruistic, like you suggested, he could find even more worthy people than nobles fighting a war over more power. Davos' actions were not from the goodness of his heart, that does not make him a bad person but a regular person with his own struggles. 

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I asked you not to speak to me anymore.  I am entitled to my opinion.

As am I. I am sorry if I have offended you in the past, I genuinely don't recognise every persons name on this forum and had no idea of any past 'arguments' we may have had. 

But yes, please continue sharing your opinion. I have no desire to stop you or anyone else from sharing their opinion in this forum. 

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Davos' ability to understand the worth of goods only speaks to his managerial skills.

Sure, as a smuggler. Is it that outlandish if I see a difference in the skill sets needed for the co ruler for the entire realm and a smuggler?

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You are so busy being a jackass you aren't stopping to consider the tone anything is written in nor the words actually written.   One more quote with nasty remarks and I will ask for moderators.

lol you call me a jackass and then threaten to report me over nasty remarks? Are you serious? I don't actually recall our past conversations, but it appears from your language that perhaps, just perhaps, I was not the only one who should have been a bit more polite. 

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   I'm done with you.   You are the only person I've ever had on an ignore list now leave me alone.

I'm sorry you feel like that. Feel free to ignore my comments but there may be times were I respond to a subject and not realise who I am replying to. Please don't take any umbrage as I certainly don't mean any

[bent branch]

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Also friends according to my own understanding of the word.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nepotism

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nepotism

But I agree, Cronyism would be a more accurate description of Davos' promotion.

Ah, one of the many differences between British and American English.

[Rufus Snow]

Personally, I don't see Davos' elevation as either nepotism or cronyism. Stannis is totally unsentimental - he does what needs to be done, and Davos has the skills Stannis needs for the time and the situation. They aren't friends: although there is a huge mutual respect between them, I don't see any affection. Even when he had a Florent for a Hand, Stannis was doing what needed to be done - keeping in check the power of Selyse's family with 'honours' (keep your friends close, but your enemies closer). He didn't hesitate to clap the guy in the dungeons when the situation required it, and he'd also come down on Davos, even now, if it was necessary.

It's difficult to answer whether Stannis was wise to chose Davos. Is pragmatism the same as wisdom? Not really. It served Stannis' purposes is all. It was certainly very sensible to choose Davos, though. Stannis had enough insight into his own weaknesses to know he'd need someone by his side to tell him 'no' if needed. For that role there is no equal to Davos, either in his own court or probably anywhere else in the 7K.

Much has been made of Davos' lack of education - yet the man has lived by his wits in some of the toughest arenas of Westerosi life, and that has given him some great insight into the hearts of men, and how to sway them. We often see Davos tipping the scales in negotiations that Stannis is screwing up due to his own stiff neck - but Davos cuts to the chase with his 'I'm only a simple man' spiel. Not only does Stannis know what Davos can do, he also knows that Davos can do what he himself cannot. That makes Davos an excellent choice for Stannis' Hand. Which of course is not to overlook Davos' failings - his lack of education and administrative experience etc - would have made him a terrible choice for any other of the kings/queens.