Was Stannis wise to select Davos as his hand?

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Personally, I don't see Davos' elevation as either nepotism or cronyism. Stannis is totally unsentimental - he does what needs to be done, and Davos has the skills Stannis needs for the time and the situation. They aren't friends: although there is a huge mutual respect between them, I don't see any affection. Even when he had a Florent for a Hand, Stannis was doing what needed to be done - keeping in check the power of Selyse's family with 'honours' (keep your friends close, but your enemies closer). He didn't hesitate to clap the guy in the dungeons when the situation required it, and he'd also come down on Davos, even now, if it was necessary.

It's difficult to answer whether Stannis was wise to chose Davos. Is pragmatism the same as wisdom? Not really. It served Stannis' purposes is all. It was certainly very sensible to choose Davos, though. Stannis had enough insight into his own weaknesses to know he'd need someone by his side to tell him 'no' if needed. For that role there is no equal to Davos, either in his own court or probably anywhere else in the 7K.

Much has been made of Davos' lack of education - yet the man has lived by his wits in some of the toughest arenas of Westerosi life, and that has given him some great insight into the hearts of men, and how to sway them. We often see Davos tipping the scales in negotiations that Stannis is screwing up due to his own stiff neck - but Davos cuts to the chase with his 'I'm only a simple man' spiel. Not only does Stannis know what Davos can do, he also knows that Davos can do what he himself cannot. That makes Davos an excellent choice for Stannis' Hand. Which of course is not to overlook Davos' failings - his lack of education and administrative experience etc - would have made him a terrible choice for any other of the kings/queens.

I completely agree with pretty much everything in that post. Well said. I would only add that even in a peacetime role, I think Davos would be decent as Hand in spite of his shortcomings mainly because those roles that everyone says Davos doesn't have the education would be handled by Stannis personally. In such a court Davos would be a negiotiator and adviser more than an administrator.

[Stormking902]

Stannis needed a hand who was completly loyal to him and his cause, a man that can not be bought with lands, titles or money, a man that speaks the truth when asked a question, and a man who can keep Stannis moral compass intact, Stannis can see he was being seduced to the Darkside in this case Rhollor and Davos is a perfect fit for all those qualties I mentioned. 

[Minsc]

On 1/21/2018 at 2:33 AM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

 I do see your point about Stannis being incapacitated but he Stannis isn't going to have any schemers around so his small council would probably be very trustworthy and could even read for the hand.

Stannis has plenty of schemers in his court as found in the Florents, in particular, and somewhat Mel.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

Personally, I don't see Davos' elevation as either nepotism or cronyism. Stannis is totally unsentimental - he does what needs to be done, and Davos has the skills Stannis needs for the time and the situation.

 

And how is granting him handship going to enable Davos to do more with those skills than he is currently doing?

 

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

They aren't friends: although there is a huge mutual respect between them, I don't see any affection.

I'm quite positive Davos is Stannis's only friend.

Hench his calling Davos "my friend"

 after meeting with him after BW.

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Even when he had a Florent for a Hand, Stannis was doing what needed to be done - keeping in check the power of Selyse's family with 'honours' (keep your friends close, but your enemies closer). He didn't hesitate to clap the guy in the dungeons when the situation required it, and he'd also come down on Davos, even now, if it was necessary.

Yes.

 

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

Personally, I don't see Davos' elevation as either nepotism or cronyism. Stannis is totally unsentimental - he does what needs to be done, and Davos has the skills Stannis needs for the time and the situation. They aren't friends: although there is a huge mutual respect between them, I don't see any affection. Even when he had a Florent for a Hand, Stannis was doing what needed to be done - keeping in check the power of Selyse's family with 'honours' (keep your friends close, but your enemies closer). He didn't hesitate to clap the guy in the dungeons when the situation required it, and he'd also come down on Davos, even now, if it was necessary.

It's difficult to answer whether Stannis was wise to chose Davos. Is pragmatism the same as wisdom? Not really. It served Stannis' purposes is all. It was certainly very sensible to choose Davos, though. Stannis had enough insight into his own weaknesses to know he'd need someone by his side to tell him 'no' if needed. For that role there is no equal to Davos, either in his own court or probably anywhere else in the 7K.

 

 

And he could still do that without the handship...

 

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Much has been made of Davos' lack of education - yet the man has lived by his wits in some of the toughest arenas of Westerosi life, and that has given him some great insight into the hearts of men, and how to sway them.

He's learned how to talk to degenerates and peasants. Not lords in the way of a lord as a hand would be required.

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

m only a simple man' spiel. Not only does Stannis know what Davos can do, he also knows that Davos can do what he himself cannot.

He got the iron bank to give Stannis a loan and some pirates to join up. 

 

6 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

That makes Davos an excellent choice for Stannis' Hand. Which of course is not to overlook Davos' failings - his lack of education and administrative experience etc - would have made him a terrible choice for any other of the kings/queens.

Stannis plans to take the iron throne. He needs a hand to carry when/if he a sends there.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Stannis needed a hand who was completly loyal to him and his cause, a man that can not be bought with lands, titles or money,

Sure. That is why nepotism was rife in the medieval age, rulers needed people they could trust in positions of power even if it meant giving them jobs they were not the best qualified for. In today's age the word nepotism carries negative connotations but it was absolutely essential to government in the middle ages and before. 

The teenage Stannis, like Renly, benefited from nepotism when he was given the role of Master of Ships, a role he excelled at despite there more than likely being many better qualified men in the realm to do the job. Appointments due to nepotism (and cronyism) can end up being excellent appointments, Davos may well go onto become the Greatest Hand in the history of the Seven Kingdoms but that does not change the fact that this was not a meritocratic appointment but one made due to hiss incredibly close relationship to Stannis. 

5 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

 

a man that speaks the truth when asked a question, and a man who can keep Stannis moral compass intact, Stannis can see he was being seduced to the Darkside in this case Rhollor and Davos is a perfect fit for all those qualties I mentioned. 

I disagree with this. First of all Stannis is perhaps the most single minded character in the series, his righteousness is his defining characteristic. He does not really need someone to point out that he is right or wrong. Second of all Stannis and Davos have been pretty much separated since Davos was promoted. His 'moral compass' is back to doing the exact same job he was doing when he was a lowly knight, visiting nobles and begging for support. 

In fact Davos' lack of qualification for his role has seen the series see a Queen's Hand whose leadership role seems to be more prominent and in line with the other Hands of the series than Davos' current duties. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

6 hours ago, Minsc said:

Stannis has plenty of schemers in his court as found in the Florents, in particular, and somewhat Mel.

Who else other than the Florents? 

I wouldn't say "plenty" but yeah a few sure we also have to keep in mind he does have to very much so take what he can get for now. If he had unanimous support then his wife's family members wouldn't be as important to him or rather his cause. 

Mel I cannot make excuses for. She wiggled her way in his head no doubt.

[Rufus Snow]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And how is granting him handship going to enable Davos to do more with those skills than he is currently doing?

He can walk into Manderley's court with a scroll that gives him just a little bit more respect than he would have had without it. It's maybe not much, but he has to play the percentages on some tight margin calls. Every little helps....

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm quite positive Davos is Stannis's only friend.

Hench his calling Davos "my friend"

Words are wind, we are often told.

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And he could still do that without the handship...

He's learned how to talk to degenerates and peasants. Not lords in the way of a lord as a hand would be required.

So some lords are so far up their own backsides they don't want to listen, that's on them, not Davos. Many of the more impressive characters are capable of talking to the smallfolk, too. The handship shows Stannis' favour - 'the hand speaks with the kings voice' - it's one thing for a lord to ignore Davos the Onion Knight, quite another to ignore Stannis' hand. Whatever they might think of the man, they are expected to respect the office.

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He got the iron bank to give Stannis a loan and some pirates to join up. 

Again, it might not be much, but it's still more than anyone else in Stannis' circle could achieve, not least Stannis himself. Stannis starts off in such a poor position, every single slight improvement is valuable.

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Stannis plans to take the iron throne. He needs a hand to carry when/if he a sends there.

If and when he does, he's in a different time and situation. I argued for Davos being the best available choice for his current time and situation. Come that day, Stannis might well choose a different hand and Davos would be happy to be replaced, he's already yearning for home and hearth, after all.

By the time a king sits the IT, he will have most if not all of the Great Houses bending the knee and swearing fealty to him. There are bound to be many more considerations coming into play over choosing a hand - like which potential enemy to keep close, which House needs to be rewarded for coming over early, or who else in the Court has the exceptional abilities needed to help rule a whole kingdom rather than a ragtag band of 'rebels' and sellswords struggling through a Northern winter. Davos is not the choice for that situation, I agree. But for the time being, Stannis is not in that situation - he's in a situation where Davos is still the best option he has.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

Stannis has little to no love for the nobility of Westeross and the feeling is mutual so I think Davos was a wise decision. Stannis knew his own vassals well enough to pass them over. A perhaps unforeseen advantage to this is it will appeal to the smallfolk. In feudal times, nepotism was rife but we need to understand that there is no job center and any office or administration (with a few exceptions) can be dismissed on a whim. So the Westerossi, when not thinking about merging houses would naturally trust those they know well over those they do not. 

Jamie could of picked another ambitious knight over Brienne.
Jon could of spent longer considering who should be his squire.

Instead, they chose individuals who they deemed trustworthy and capable.

It's not always necessary, wise, or pertinent to pick the most ambitious. In Westeros, loyalty is more important. Janos Slynt for example was by all accounts the most qualified, and yet he would also be a very poor choice.

Although, we can contrast the above with Joer who barely knew Jon and yet gave him the position of personal steward based on a well put together character reference for Jon. We could argue that Jon, who is perceived as a son of 'the Ned' is technically a better option given his upbringing and apparent Stark traits. 

I think only time can tell whether these decisions are wise or no. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

He can walk into Manderley's court with a scroll that gives him just a little bit more respect than he would have had without it. It's maybe not much, but he has to play the percentages on some tight margin calls. Every little helps....

Quote

What'd be better to send someone who  wasn't  a former career crimnal  who had been growing rich at the Manderly's expense and have his hand placed in a extremely vulnerable situation with no route of escape...

 

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

So some lords are so far up their own backsides they don't want to listen, that's on them, not Davos.

Correction most lords*

Davos being of  lowly background would already get them to doubt his qualifications (as they'd be wise to), but him coming to them in a way one of their subjects will very much ht(as is in not a lord), validate their preconconceptions and give them the idea they can push Davos around.These people need to see a projection of power if they are going to have an iota of respect(or fear) towards him if they are going to do government buisness with him.

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Many of the more impressive characters are capable of talking to the smallfolk, too.

Every lord could "talk" with the small folk...Davos needs to know how to talk to lords as a lord.

 

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

The handship shows Stannis' favour - 'the hand speaks with the kings voice' - it's one thing for a lord to ignore Davos the Onion Knight, quite another to ignore Stannis' hand. Whatever they might think of the man, they are expected to respect the office.

But is that the reality?

When Tywin was Aerys' hand he was mocked by some lords while at court.

Yet he never once lost respect (even though he never took some petty act of retribution in public or got in a insult fight) because he projected an air of power. 

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

when he does, he's in a different time and situation. I argued for Davos being the best available choice for his current time and situation. Come that day, Stannis might well choose a different hand and Davos would be happy to be replaced, he's already yearning for home and hearth, after all.

 

Or simply forego giving anyone the handship until a suitable canindate could be agreed upon. 

Since a hand does not simply operate as a messenger(which is really all Davos is really acting as).

If Stannis dismisses Davos it  shows Stannis finally recognized his error of appointing a peasant to such an illustrious position and Davos would be shamed.

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Again, it might not be much, but it's still more than anyone else in Stannis' circle could achieve, not least Stannis himself. Stannis starts off in such a poor position, every single slight improvement is valuable.

The loan maybe or maybe not

Pirates go were theres promise of money.

Rather it's Davos or lord florent himself offering it they will go if there appears to be profit to be had.

[Rufus Snow]

Well, we're obviously not going to convince each other

But I'll leave you one last question: can you name a single person who would have been a better choice for Stannis? For all Davos' shortcomings, they are moot without a better candidate.

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, we're obviously not going to convince each other

But I'll leave you one last question: can you name a single person who would have been a better choice for Stannis? For all Davos' shortcomings, they are moot without a better candidate.

Again, having a hard is a custom not an obligation-if no one is qualified at the moment  then withholding the appointment until someone who'd actually service is an option.

 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 1/21/2018 at 10:17 AM, Lady Dacey said:

 

Now moving to the great question, is Davos a good Hand? What makes a good Hand is an important thing to have in mind when answering it. And what exactly is it? The Hand is not "master" of anything is particular. He's not responsible for the economy, nor for the military strength of the realm, he's not responsible for the sea force or the city Watch or for spying, or for the king's justice - but the Hand should oversee it all, like the King. And King and his Hand are, together, de facto rulers or the realm. For the realm to prosper under a weak king the Hand must singlehandedly manage the realm - probably what happened with Aerys/Tywin and Robert/Jon. An intelligent, committed king, on the other hand, doesn't need a hand to do all the managing for him - and I think that's the case with the Stannis/Davos duo. They trust each other and confront each other. I believe those that say Davos doesn't have the skill set to be a good Hand are undermining the importance of the small council. The Hand doesn't have to be an expert on anything. Stannis doesn't need Davos to be able to manage a state/city/realm because he knows how to do it himself, to such an extent he can either ask other things of Davos, or take the time to make him understand how he wants the realm to be managed in his absence. If Stannis becomes king he is not going to be whoring and hunting while leaving Davos to sit the Iron Throne, he is going to sit the throne himself. Stannis knows Davos is as loyal as it gets, which is absolutely necessary for being Hand, and he has a particular set of skills that are actually useful. So yeah, I'm convinced Davos is a great Hand to King Stannis, and would continue being so if Stannis were ever to sit the IT. 

I have been away from the forum for a week or so and was surprised reading through this topic how long it took for someone to bring these points up.  I agree 100% and this is why I think Davos is an excellent choice as Hand for Stannis.  Stannis knows how to and intends to rule.  He will carefully select councillors who will know how to count coppers, write laws, etc.  What he needs of a Hand isn't someone to rule for him, but someone to give him honest council, to be reliably faithful to his and the realm's best interests, and to be dedicated to the job.  This is Davos.

On 1/21/2018 at 10:40 AM, Lady Dacey said:

I don't understand what brings people to be so agressive. We're all fans of the same work and we should just be making pleasant conversation, even if we disagree... and then there are people actually willing to personally atack other forum users because of divergent opinions. We should all chill and be as polite and de respectful as you are. 

Nicely said.

On 1/22/2018 at 9:09 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Much has been made of Davos' lack of education - yet the man has lived by his wits in some of the toughest arenas of Westerosi life, and that has given him some great insight into the hearts of men, and how to sway them. We often see Davos tipping the scales in negotiations that Stannis is screwing up due to his own stiff neck - but Davos cuts to the chase with his 'I'm only a simple man' spiel. Not only does Stannis know what Davos can do, he also knows that Davos can do what he himself cannot. That makes Davos an excellent choice for Stannis' Hand. Which of course is not to overlook Davos' failings - his lack of education and administrative experience etc - would have made him a terrible choice for any other of the kings/queens.

Completely agree with you here.  Well put.

 

Great OP @Varysblackfyre321!

[bent branch]

On 1/22/2018 at 2:42 PM, Bernie Mac said:

In today's age the word nepotism carries negative connotations but it was absolutely essential to government in the middle ages and before.

The practice of nepotism has always had smell of corruption about it. Even in ancient times. Why? Because there was always the suggestion of incompetency. However, the word itself is from the renaissance.