The intellectuals

[LordImp]

Something I like about this series is that it's not just focusing on skilled swordsmen, but also on characters who are better with their brain than with the sword. 

Tyrion , Sarellas , Sam , Willas Tyrell , Rodrik the reader , Marwyn and Hoster Blackwood are characters established as intellectual or at least bookish . 

So I'm thinking that when the Long night arrives their job will not be to fight on the field but rather find knowledge about the Others and provide advise to Jon , Dany etc. Kinda like a intellectual alliance.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

This is without a doubt one of my favorite things about the books, the scholars. 

And when we look at the guys named here, there really isn't all that many degrees of separation between them, the Houses and how information can be disseminated.

Rodrik the Reader is reading Marwyn's book about Daenys the Dreamer. Sarella and Lazy Leo have been hanging out with Marwyn, Sam meets Marwyn, Marwyn has been watching Sam through the glass candle. It might not be a hard sell for someone like Rodrik the Reader that the Long Night is coming since he is reading a book written by Marwyn.

Sarella is Doran Martell's niece, Arianne's cousin, and that also makes her Aegon's cousin (let's forget for a second that he might be fake). Aegon is connected to Jon Connington who might know all about the Prince that was Promised from Rhaegar. 

Sam is connected to Jon and the Night's Watch, has been beyond the Wall, has encountered the wights and the Others and killed one. Marwyn has the story and is sailing to Meereen to get to Dany. 

Tyrion is outside of Meereen with Jorah. Tyrion was at the Wall. 

Sam's aunt is married to Leyton Hightower. Willas Tyrell's grandfather is Leyton Hightower. And he is such an intriguing character. The man has not left his tower since somewhere around the tourney at Lannisport after the Greyjoy rebellion, the same tourney he agreed to marry his youngest daughter to Jorah Mormont whose father became the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch a year earlier. Leyton Hightower spent the entirety of the long summer hauled up in his tower, where he can allegedly see all the way to the Wall, and at the same time, we find out that he is looking at books of spells to try and stop the ironborn. This is kinda nuts.

Rodrik the Reader might be converging toward Oldtown if he's part of whatever battle is going to happen there (although I'd rather he's not because I'd like him to survive).

I find it all super interesting and just so much fun.

 

[zandru]

Re: Marwyn. Actually, it seems as if everyone has been reading Marwyn. Maester Aemon mentions his book(s) to Jon at the Wall. We also learn that Maester Aemon had had a long correspondence with one Prince Rhaegar.

[Curled Finger]

At some point the people of Westeros will have to come to terms with the importance of education, not the status symbol of having a maester at their castles.  The maesters are a strange bunch.   I loved Luwin the grandfatherly teacher with a Valyrian Steel link in his chain.   But he discards the signs and portents around him with Bran and Rickon.   So how smart are they, really?  

Marwin does seem to be a rogue in his studies so focused on magic around the world.  Has he served at a castle?  He's one of the few in story who seem to understand magic is a big fat deal.  Is that because he's focused on it or learned it along his way?  Has he had dealings with the COTF or is his magical knowledge specific to Essos?  This book of his--is it a slam against the Citadel?  Why compile a book of the existing fragments of books?  What is he really up to? 

Rodrik certainly seems to be enjoying his copy of the book.  He may be more attuned to the higher mysteries taking place.  He seems to be a man much apart from the rest of his countrymen.  It will be really interesting to see where the story takes  this extraordinary character.  

Lots to consider here.  

[Quoth the raven,]

10 hours ago, LordImp said:

Something I like about this series is that it's not just focusing on skilled swordsmen, but also on characters who are better with their brain than with the sword. 

Tyrion , Sarellas , Sam , Willas Tyrell , Rodrik the reader , Marwyn and Hoster Blackwood are characters established as intellectual or at least bookish . 

So I'm thinking that when the Long night arrives their job will not be to fight on the field but rather find knowledge about the Others and provide advise to Jon , Dany etc. Kinda like a intellectual alliance.

 

Each person has a place.  Intellectuals have their place but like real life, the nerds rarely attain positions of leadership.

[Nowy Tends]

53 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Each person has a place.  Intellectuals have their place but like real life, the nerds rarely attain positions of leadership.

So for you intellectuals are "nerds"?

[Lord Lannister]

Well the Maesters seem to have their own agenda. The seem as much about dogma as they do about knowledge. Barbrey Dustin seems to have a point about them, even if she's more than a bit jaded.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I think it's debatable on whether or not Baelish could be on that list as well. He's brilliant with numbers and cooking books. He's also shown he has incredible foresight. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, LordImp said:

Something I like about this series is that it's not just focusing on skilled swordsmen, but also on characters who are better with their brain than with the sword. 

Tyrion , Sarellas , Sam , Willas Tyrell , Rodrik the reader , Marwyn and Hoster Blackwood are characters established as intellectual or at least bookish . 

So I'm thinking that when the Long night arrives their job will not be to fight on the field but rather find knowledge about the Others and provide advise to Jon , Dany etc. Kinda like a intellectual alliance.

 

Most everyone in the books has no concept of what is coming. It will be up to the intellectual folks to piece it all together. Tyrion is going to be that person with Marwyn's  help 

[LordImp]

10 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

the nerds rarely attain positions of leadership.

Big difference between nerds and intellectuals. And intellectuals does attain positions of leadership. 

 

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think it's debatable on whether or not Baelish could be on that list as well. He's brilliant with numbers and cooking books. He's also shown he has incredible foresight. 

Baelish is one of smartest yes. But I doubt he'll live to see the LN so that's why I didn't include. Though if he survives then he should be on the list yes. 

 

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Most everyone in the books has no concept of what is coming. It will be up to the intellectual folks to piece it all together. Tyrion is going to be that person with Marwyn's  help 

Yes . 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well the Maesters seem to have their own agenda. The seem as much about dogma as they do about knowledge. Barbrey Dustin seems to have a point about them, even if she's more than a bit jaded.

Wonder where to place the Maesters in the Long night. I got a feeling  that a lot of the " grey sheep" will dead when the LN starts. 

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, LordImp said:

Something I like about this series is that it's not just focusing on skilled swordsmen, but also on characters who are better with their brain than with the sword. 

Tyrion , Sarellas , Sam , Willas Tyrell , Rodrik the reader , Marwyn and Hoster Blackwood are characters established as intellectual or at least bookish . 

So I'm thinking that when the Long night arrives their job will not be to fight on the field but rather find knowledge about the Others and provide advise to Jon , Dany etc. Kinda like a intellectual alliance.

 

I'd add Melisandre and Varys to the list of intellectuals, although their role is more than scholarly.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I'd add Melisandre and Varys to the list of intellectuals, although their role is more than scholarly.

I'm curious as to why Mel... I know she has real powers on top of all the powders and glamours but she doesn't strike me as someone who is particularly intelligent. 

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm curious as to why Mel... I know she has real powers on top of all the powders and glamours but she doesn't strike me as someone who is particularly intelligent. 

I'm not sure that she is an intellectual, but I do think she has more knowledge than we know and keeps that close to her chest. 

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm curious as to why Mel... I know she has real powers on top of all the powders and glamours but she doesn't strike me as someone who is particularly intelligent. 

I think that to study magic to her level, at both the Red Temple and Asshai, you'd need to be pretty bright.

[kissdbyfire]

52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that she is an intellectual, but I do think she has more knowledge than we know and keeps that close to her chest. 

Oh I totally agree she has knowledge and that she is playing her cards very close to her chest. 

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that to study magic to her level, at both the Red Temple and Asshai, you'd need to be pretty bright.

But we don't know how she studied it, for how long, how difficult it was, none of that. She might be a natural and have skills and power w/o being particularly intelligent. There are instances where she doesn't really come across as being very smart  imo. For instance, the visions w/ Jon as a man and a wolf, then Bran as a boy w/ a wolf's head, she knows Jon has a direwolf and the direwolf is the Starks sigil, and yet she doesn't connect the dots. Mel is a religious zealot and imo being a religious zealot and being intelligent are mutually exclusive.  

[SeanF]

37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh I totally agree she has knowledge and that she is playing her cards very close to her chest. 

But we don't know how she studied it, for how long, how difficult it was, none of that. She might be a natural and have skills and power w/o being particularly intelligent. There are instances where she doesn't really come across as being very smart  imo. For instance, the visions w/ Jon as a man and a wolf, then Bran as a boy w/ a wolf's head, she knows Jon has a direwolf and the direwolf is the Starks sigil, and yet she doesn't connect the dots. Mel is a religious zealot and imo being a religious zealot and being intelligent are mutually exclusive.  

I wouldn't say that, but it can lead you to jump to conclusions too quickly.  Melisandre is ahead of the game in realising that the world faces an existential threat.  But, she's jumped to the wrong conclusion about Stannis.

We don't know what exactly is involved in magical study, but I should think that it would be at least as intellectually demanding as studying at the Citadel.  I imagine one would need to be able to translate scrolls in different languages, some of which probably ceased to be spoken years ago, and to learn about the histories, politics, and cultures of the lands that you obtained magical knowledge from.

 

[zandru]

14 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

So for you intellectuals are "nerds"?

Or geeks. Wonks. Here in the US, people who know things have always been disparaged. We even once had a political party that proudly called themselves the "Know Nothings". We still do, but they use a different name now.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

They're more likely to make it to the end of the series and they're more likely to to give us the big reveal. At the same time, there are certain intellectuals whom I despise. LF for example, uses his intellect to sew chaos for profit. Then there's Qyburn whom I applaud for his scientific endeavors but despise for his lack of humanity. 

Overall, I prefer to follow the simpler characters - Brienne especially - because their ignorance makes their world all the more challenging. If it weren't for Brienne's futile wanderings, we wouldn't of met Dick Crabb nor would she of gotten to kill Pyg, Timeon and Shagwell. She even goes to the trouble of ensuring Dick has a proper burial and pays him the promised sum two dragons.

I don't know about an alliance. It's possible that if they're all getting their information from Marwyn then they'd needn't ever meet one another only - as you say - inform whoever they happen to serve, Dany, Jon etc. This way, we can have a big scene where an enormous amount of Dragon Glass is unexpectedly delivered just before the Others attack. Or something similar. It's more dramatic if the clever ones can't all sit together and make a firm plan.   

[Damon_Tor]

On 1/21/2018 at 0:06 PM, Curled Finger said:

 But he discards the signs and portents around him with Bran and Rickon.   So how smart are they, really?  

I doubt that. It seems he knows exactly what's going on.

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Mel is a religious zealot and imo being a religious zealot and being intelligent are mutually exclusive.  

In a world with observable magic, religion is substantially more rational. It's likely the Gods of ASoIAF are real entities (or at least some of them are), even if the entities in question are psychic gestalts rather that what we think of as deities in the context of our own culture.

[Bernie Mac]

On 22/01/2018 at 0:34 AM, Nowy Tends said:

So for you intellectuals are "nerds"?

This is hardly controversial, is it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd

Quote

A nerd is a person seen as overly intellectual

In terms of Westeros Sam, Tyrion, Rodrik, Hoster and Marwyn, 5 of the 7 people he quoted absolutely fall into the category. The word is only an insult if you want to take it as one, but these five characters can absolutely be described  as 'Nerds'.