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The intellectuals


LordImp

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20 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

I doubt that. It seems he knows exactly what's going on.

In a world with observable magic, religion is substantially more rational. It's likely the Gods of ASoIAF are real entities (or at least some of them are), even if the entities in question are psychic gestalts rather that what we think of as deities in the context of our own culture.

That's fine, and an interesting concept. Still, religious zealots, regardless of what or who their deities are, are scary and not very bright imo.  

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11 hours ago, SeanF said:

I wouldn't say that, but it can lead you to jump to conclusions too quickly.  Melisandre is ahead of the game in realising that the world faces an existential threat.  But, she's jumped to the wrong conclusion about Stannis.

We don't know what exactly is involved in magical study, but I should think that it would be at least as intellectually demanding as studying at the Citadel.  I imagine one would need to be able to translate scrolls in different languages, some of which probably ceased to be spoken years ago, and to learn about the histories, politics, and cultures of the lands that you obtained magical knowledge from.

 

I think GRRM makes a point of showing us how religion can severely impact the capacity for being open-minded about possible scenarios. Aeron's and Melissandre's chapters are very clear in that aspect to me: it doesn't matter what or how much they know, their interpretation of events is heavily influenced by what they already expect to find - which is in accordance with the religious beliefs they hold. While they can posses a lot of knowledge (independent wether or not the deities they worship are real entities) it's hard to classify either of them as intellectuals because they don't seem to be interested in discovering new things or piecing information together with an unprejudiced mind, which I believe is true for Tyrion, Sam and Rodrik Harlaw for exemple. 

Also, religious knowledge is often passed from priest to worshipper/future priest without room for questioning or furthering the studies more than it interests the person teaching. Questioning is the haert of intellectuality. Think about the volantene red temples - what kind of education do you think the slave priests go through? 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is hardly controversial, is it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerd

A nerd is a person seen as overly intellectual, obsessive, or lacking social skills (introvert). Such a person may spend inordinate amounts of time on unpopular, little known, or non-mainstream activities, which are generally either highly technical, abstract, or relating to topics of fiction or fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities.[1][2][3] Additionally, many so-called nerds are described as being shy, quirky, pedantic, and unattractive

To quote only the first 10 words of the paragraph is intellectual dishonesty. According to you, Sam, Tyrion, Hoster are obsessive and lacking social skills? :wacko:

 

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10 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

A nerd is a person seen as overly intellectual, obsessive, or lacking social skills (introvert). Such a person may spend inordinate amounts of time on unpopular, little known, or non-mainstream activities, which are generally either highly technical, abstract, or relating to topics of fiction or fantasy, to the exclusion of more mainstream activities.[1][2][3] Additionally, many so-called nerds are described as being shy, quirky, pedantic, and unattractive

To quote only the first 10 words of the paragraph is intellectual dishonesty.

The commas and the word 'or' is important in that sentence. All three are not needed to be described as a 'nerd', people can and have described intellectuals as nerds before. 

Quote

 

According to you, Sam, Tyrion, Hoster are obsessive and lacking social skills? :wacko:

 

No, I actually never claimed something like that all. Though I think it goes without saying that Sam, for the first couple of books at least, is clearly lacking some social skills though I think people who would label him a nerd would do so more for his (commendable) obsession with books. 

 

edit: and yeah, in the context of Westeros I would absolutely label Sam, Tyrion and Hoster Blackwood as 'nerds'. 

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50 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I have to say I (and yes I know this is unlikely) I always hoped the new king/queen would start a public education program where the maestors are obligated to actually share their gifts with even the plebeians.

Why? The maesters are known liars and they subvert truth into what favors them, not anyone else, and certainly not the realm as a whole. You know, the faith of the LiarsR that GRRM has written about many times before.

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3 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

I doubt that. It seems he knows exactly what's going on.

In a world with observable magic, religion is substantially more rational. It's likely the Gods of ASoIAF are real entities (or at least some of them are), even if the entities in question are psychic gestalts rather that what we think of as deities in the context of our own culture.

We will have to agree to disagree, Ser.  Maester Luwin tried very hard to discourage any musings about magic Bran had.   He should have known better.  

As to gods, I doubt we will ever know if they are true or not.  Much as in our own chaos, God is a matter of faith.  

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55 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Why? The maesters are known liars and they subvert truth into what favors them, not anyone else, and certainly not the realm as a whole. You know, the faith of the LiarsR that GRRM has written about many times before.

Ehh, I won't pretend to know whether or there is truly some grand maestor conspiracy or if most Maestors are twisted information for some nefarious goal. I'll admit I should probably look that up. But, honestly I really like the idea of  peasant kids and adults learning to read and do some math besides the typical counting would be nice and perhaps some basic history of their own region would give the peasants a sense of pride maybe. One less thing to feel inferior about when being compared to the highborns you know? Yes I know a lot of them probably still couldn't afford the many books an inquisitive noble  Tyrion would have in his Arsenal and books in general could not be massed produced due limits on technology. 

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On 1/22/2018 at 8:32 PM, Lady Dacey said:

I think GRRM makes a point of showing us how religion can severely impact the capacity for being open-minded about possible scenarios. Aeron's and Melissandre's chapters are very clear in that aspect to me: it doesn't matter what or how much they know, their interpretation of events is heavily influenced by what they already expect to find - which is in accordance with the religious beliefs they hold. While they can posses a lot of knowledge (independent wether or not the deities they worship are real entities) it's hard to classify either of them as intellectuals because they don't seem to be interested in discovering new things or piecing information together with an unprejudiced mind, which I believe is true for Tyrion, Sam and Rodrik Harlaw for exemple. 

Also, religious knowledge is often passed from priest to worshipper/future priest without room for questioning or furthering the studies more than it interests the person teaching. Questioning is the haert of intellectuality. Think about the volantene red temples - what kind of education do you think the slave priests go through? 

Kind of an aside from the OP - I get what you're saying here and see how this is a common misunderstanding even amongst religious people.  I am a religious person and a scientist - I think that studying our world and learning its truths is how we better understand God and the way he works, how he made us, how he communicates with us etc.  I don't see how a true believer can see revelation of truth through science being in opposition to revelation of truth through prayer/the word of God.  Our understanding of the universe didn't end with copernicus, our understanding of physics didn't end with newton, our understanding of human and worldly nature didn't end with Christ.  In this sense I still believe in the idealized priest being a philosopher and scientist (as many used to be IRL).  Could be that such religious intellectuals will exist in ASOIAF.

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4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Kind of an aside from the OP - I get what you're saying here and see how this is a common misunderstanding even amongst religious people.  I am a religious person and a scientist - I think that studying our world and learning its truths is how we better understand God and the way he works, how he made us, how he communicates with us etc.  I don't see how a true believer can see revelation of truth through science being in opposition to revelation of truth through prayer/the word of God.  Our understanding of the universe didn't end with copernicus, our understanding of physics didn't end with newton, our understanding of human and worldly nature didn't end with Christ.  In this sense I still believe in the idealized priest being a philosopher and scientist (as many used to be IRL).  Could be that such religious intellectuals will exist in ASOIAF.

Thank you for offering your thoughts here. Hoping for the same.

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Regarding religion on thought:

I think preconceptions vs open-mindedness is a major theme of the books but its exclusive domain isn’t religion. Everyone had an explanation of the comet, one which suited them. Characters are always seeing what they wish to see or expect to see rather than what’s there, especially in each other. LF and Varys especially use this quality to manipulate people. Syrio warns Arya of it. Religion is just one of many possible frameworks which we can use to structure what we see.

 

Changing topics, so does religion cause rigidness of thought or does the need for order, answers, structure, etc cause people to gravitate toward those religions which offer those things?

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the Faith Militant grows stronger as Westeros becomes more chaotic especially for the common folk.

To the OP, I think Jaime is poised to be an excellent diplomat which are quite in short supply in Westeros. No accident that this skill didn't really emerge until he lost his sword and sword-hand. Words will be his new sword.

 

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I should have been more clear! @Lucius Lovejoy I actually agree with everything you said about the interplay of science and religion in real life. I myself am religious, and have experienced my fair share of prejudice inside academia because of it. Count on this sort of thing being a thousand times more intense if you're a follower of a non-western animist relegion like I am. My Christian colleagues don't get half the odd looks I get. 

My point was specifically about Melissandre being considered an intelectual. As I said religion can impact the capacity of being open minded - doesn't mean it will, but in the case of Melissandre and Aeron, I see it does. As @Lollygag pointed out, preconceptions and narrowmindess aren't exclusive to religious people at all, and often times it's narrowmidness that drives people to certain beliefs (religious or not, may I add), not the other way around. 

5 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Could be that such religious intellectuals will exist in ASOIAF

Could be. I'd definitely love to see it on page. 

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5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Regarding religion on thought:

I think preconceptions vs open-mindedness is a major theme of the books but its exclusive domain isn’t religion. Everyone had an explanation of the comet, one which suited them. Characters are always seeing what they wish to see or expect to see rather than what’s there, especially in each other. LF and Varys especially use this quality to manipulate people. Syrio warns Arya of it. Religion is just one of many possible frameworks which we can use to structure what we see.

Great observation - the "true seeing."  I agree that characters seeing what they want to see and not what is seems to be a big theme.  Sansa is the person I most associate with this - the gradual opening of her eyes to truths of the people and situations she is surrounded by, and while she is seen in the sept and godswood early in the season it is more portrayed as her being dutiful and not necessarily religious (plus she is young and likely hasn't formed her true beliefs yet).

5 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Changing topics, so does religion cause rigidness of thought or does the need for order, answers, structure, etc cause people to gravitate toward those religions which offer those things?

I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the Faith Militant grows stronger as Westeros becomes more chaotic especially for the common folk.

You hit the nail on the head - some people gravitate toward religion for the need for order.  I'm reminded of Barack Obama's infamous quote from 2008 about scared people clinging to their guns and religion.  Could be any number of things that people flock to in order to feel safety and security in troubled times.  I started typing a lot more but my thumbs are killing me now (on a mobile phone) and I was going down a different rabbit hole.

 

Back to the OP - it is true of any complex conflict that strategic thinking is a necessary contribution to victory.  It can be as simple as an engineer designing a part, a manufacturer making it, a laborer installing it.  So of course there will be many contributors to the all but assured survival of at least some portion of Westeros after the next long night. I don't think there necessarily will be some great strategic war council where all of the great minds you listed come together to solve the problem, but of course many will contribute.

 

@Lady Dacey thanks for the clarification.  It is tough to call with Melisandre - she seems to admit the necessity of her outward rigidness as a product of self-preservation and advancing her goals, so she could be a "smart person who does dumb things" from a certain perspective.  Her POV showed that she recognized things counter to what she expected or desired to see (the whole bit of wanting a glimpse of her king and seeing only snow).  Damphair on the other hand seems pretty singularly focused.

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