If Jon Snow becomes king, who is TPtwP?

[Darth Sidious]

7 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Aegon is legit... Dany is AZOR AHAI, TPTWP (She's the Amethyst Empress reborn). She will kill Aegon or be involved in his death some how. Jon is the Sword of the morning

What passes for recorded history is so unreliable that it is hard to separate fact from fairy tale until events have proven it.  Past tense.  So like the waking the dragons from stone has been proven and points to the identity of AA.  The other stuff dating back to the dawn of days is wildly unreliable and akin to the tales of Beowulf.   But perhaps GRRM has a bit of Mushroom in him and freely embellished his story to add more flavor.  

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I think the dragons and their riders were a magical weapon prepared against the day the Others arose again. I seriously doubt anyone is going to actually turn into a dragon or a god.

Here's an outline of this idea:

What I'm suggesting is a triune god with three heads or a body (Drogon) mind (Dany) and soul (Rhaegar) combined in one. 
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"I hit him," she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"

Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

I think the answer is yes.  Whenever Dany dreams of Rhaegar in his black armor or wearing his armor; this is another way of depicting the black dragon and it's armor.  Dany's vision of the  the man limned in flame during Mirri's resurrection ritual is a depiction of a soul limned in flame.  She sees the great wolf and the great dragon.
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Aeron Damphair says that memories are the bones of the soul.  Who's memory is the nightmare on the Trident?  Not Dany's, but Rhaegar's. 

Melisandre isn't just interested in hatching dragon eggs:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand."

"I am a small man," Davos admitted, "so tell me why you need this boy Edric Storm to wake your great stone dragon, my lady." He was determined to say the boy's name as often as he could.

The dragon gods of the Targs are the great dragons. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

"Aegon's dragons were named for the gods of Old Valyria," she told her bloodriders one morning after a long night's journey. "Visenya's dragon was Vhagar, Rhaenys had Meraxes, and Aegon rode Balerion, the Black Dread. It was said that Vhagar's breath was so hot that it could melt a knight's armor and cook the man inside, that Meraxes swallowed horses whole, and Balerion . . . his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed overhead."

The Dothraki looked at her hatchlings uneasily. The largest of her three was shiny black, his scales slashed with streaks of vivid scarlet to match his wings and horns. "Khaleesi," Aggo murmured, "there sits Balerion, come again."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

From there the skulls ranged upward in size to the three great monsters of song and story, the dragons that Aegon Targaryen and his sisters had unleashed on the Seven Kingdoms of old. The singers had given them the names of gods: Balerion, Meraxes, Vhaghar.

I think this is the riddle of the valyrian sphinx with the head of a man or woman and the body of a dragon; that it's possible to have a second life in the body of a dragon.  That's a dragon with two heads; the third is the one who bonds with the dragon or rides the dragon.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Rhaegar is the dragon who sings.      

[Bloodraven's Spider]

43 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

What passes for recorded history is so unreliable that it is hard to separate fact from fairy tale until events have proven it.  Past tense.  So like the waking the dragons from stone has been proven and points to the identity of AA.  The other stuff dating back to the dawn of days is wildly unreliable and akin to the tales of Beowulf.   But perhaps GRRM has a bit of Mushroom in him and freely embellished his story to add more flavor.  

What does that have to do with my original statement? The Andals are liars as are their maesters... 

[Fire Eater]

Jon is the Prince that was Promised. A man isn't technically king until he is crowned, hence why Aegon is called "prince" by everyone around him even though he is believed to be the true king of Westeros. It is entirely possible for him to defeat the Others and the Long Night before he is crowned. 

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, bent branch said:

Depending on if the third head needs to also fulfill the woodswitch's prophecy of TPTWP of the dragon descending from Aerys and Rhaella, then the third head must be Aegon, who then must be the son of Rhaegar and Elia. If the third head of the dragon doesn't not need to descend from Aerys and Rhaella, then Tyrion must be the bastard son of Aerys and Joanna. No matter which way the story goes, some people are going to be pissed off.

Anyway, I don't think the prophecy is saying anything at all about who ends up on the throne. It is far more likely that DTWP prophecy is about those who will save the world from the existential threat from the north than who occupies the Iron Throne.

The 'dragon' mount has to descend from Aerys and Rhaella; the skinchanger who 'rides' him does not necessarily have to be of this line.  The 'sphinx is the riddle'...

[Geddus]

14 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Just like the wording of the vows free him from the Night's Watch upon his death, the wording of this prophecy that deals in princes frees him from the duty if he becomes a king. TPtwP was supposed to come from Aerys's and Rhaella's line, and Dany is already a queen. So assuming Aegon is fAegon, why do so many people want Jon to lose the privilege of being the hero of the series?

I doubt Jon will be absolved of his vows because he died (if he died). It's the spirit that counts, not the letter and they're obviously meant to be unbreakable.

Anyway, prophecies are never literal. That one is also very old and translated from a different language, who knows what it said originally. "Prince" could have meant anything.

[Sea Dragon]

23 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

Just like the wording of the vows free him from the Night's Watch upon his death, the wording of this prophecy that deals in princes frees him from the duty if he becomes a king. TPtwP was supposed to come from Aerys's and Rhaella's line, and Dany is already a queen. So assuming Aegon is fAegon, why do so many people want Jon to lose the privilege of being the hero of the series?

Daenerys is already a queen. That is true. Jon is going to be her king consort and he will rule next to her with her words. Jon is not the hero of the story because Daenerys is. Jon is dead right now but Melisandre will raise him with fire. This fAegon is the mummers dragon that Daenerys will slay but this will happen before she meets Jon and she goes to King's Lading first to claim her royal throne. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

20 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

According to @Wizz-The-Smith's 'SCION=COINS' wordplay, a person, specifically a male heir, is frequently used to effect some payment or another.  e.g. Theon as Ned's ward to seal the peace pact and ensure Balon's compliance, or Robb who was supposed to marry Walder Frey's daughter as a 'bridge toll'!  The latter highlights that a special component of being 'promised to someone' often entails marriage:

Hey RR!   

I thought I would drop by and supply some quotes in support of the theory regarding Brandon the Builder and his potential 'promise/pact/agreement' to give up a child/heir/scion, only for the prize to be stolen away.  I love the Robb example by the way.      

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ah!  Very interesting.  Yes I can see that Bran is exchanged in payment for Monster.  Is there something equivalent that relates to Dany if she is in the fact the PwiP as Aemon concludes - the dragons prove it?   

Hi @LynnS. 

Not sure about Dani just yet, but as RR has mentioned the example of Bran being exchanged in payment for Monster, here are some other examples of the scion/coins wordplay which may foreshadow/relate to the theory that the 'Prince that was promised' is in actuality a 'Price that was promised'.   [I like RR's idea that it may be one of the dragons in Dani's case]   

We see three 'Princes' exchanged in payment, the first example RR has already mentioned, Theon.....

Quote

EDDARD I -- AGOT

Ned had last seen the king nine years before during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, when the stag and the direwolf had joined to end the pretensions of the self-proclaimed King of the Iron Islands. Since the night they had stood side by side in Greyjoy's fallen stronghold, where Robert had accepted the rebel lord's surrender and Ned had taken his son Theon as hostage and ward, the king had gained at least eight stone. A beard as coarse and black as iron wire covered his jaw to hide his double chin and the sag of the royal jowls, but nothing could hide his stomach or the dark circles under his eyes.

Secondly, a Stark Prince......  [or the heir of the King beyond the Wall, whatever takes ones fancy]
 

Quote

JON VI -- ACOK

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

The third example is my favourite as it highlights the potential for the scion/coins wordplay......

Quote

THE QUEENMAKER -- AFFC

Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. "I like it no more than you do," Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept."

"Coin?" her mother had screamed. "He is your son. What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?"

Three prices Princes used as coin or exchanged as payment. 

Regarding RR's idea that Brandon the Builder may have made some kind of pact/agreement involving the payment of a child/heir and then reneging on the deal, here are a couple of instances of Noble scions being 'stolen' away.  Firstly, Jaime.......

Quote

Jaime VI -- ASOS

King Aerys made a great show of Jaime's investiture. He said his vows before the king's pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey."

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Even now, all these years later, the thought was bitter. And that day, as he'd ridden south in his new white cloak to guard an empty castle, it had been almost too much to stomach. He would have ripped the cloak off then and there if he could have, but it was too late. He had said the words whilst half the realm looked on, and a Kingsguard served for life.

And secondly, Sweetrobin........

Quote

Eddard I -- AGOT

Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. "The wife has lost the husband," he said carefully. "Perhaps the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young."

"Six, and sickly, and Lord of the Eyrie, gods have mercy," the king swore. "Lord Tywin had never taken a ward before. Lysa ought to have been honored. The Lannisters are a great and noble House. She refused to even hear of it. Then she left in the dead of night, without so much as a by-your-leave. Cersei was furious." He sighed deeply. "The boy is my namesake, did you know that? Robert Arryn. I am sworn to protect him. How can I do that if his mother steals him away?"

Aerys 'robbed' Jaime, and Robin [robbing ] was stolen away.   

So we have three examples of 'Princes' promised/exchanged in payment [coins/scion] and two of Noble heirs/scions [Princes in all but name] being 'stolen away'.  I really like the idea that the Others have come back to claim their prize, and the quoted text may support the notion that a 'promised Prince' may also potentially be a 'promised Price'. 

Anyways, still much to ponder.  Love the chat so far.       

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

@LynnS

 

So we have three examples of 'Princes' promised/exchanged in payment [coins/scion] and two of Noble heirs/scions [Princes in all but name] being 'stolen away'.  I really like the idea that the Others have come back to claim their prize, and the quoted text may support the notion that a 'promised Prince' may also potentially be a 'promised Price'. 

Anyways, still much to ponder.  Love the chat so far.       

Excellent!

[The Commentator]

21 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi Lynn   The promise or payment seems to involve a child, perhaps even one child for another.  Think of Cat's strange, almost-misplaced line to Jon 'it should've been you...'  -- Bran took the fall and stayed at Winterfell in Jon's stead, liberating Jon from Winterfell.  Remember on Heresy, we discussed the movement involved using the analogy of a chess move (of which GRRM as former almost-grand-chessmaster would certainly be aware), namely 'castling', in which the rook (Bran) saves the king (Jon) by exchanging positions with him!  As far as 'the dragons prove it,' I believe Bran will skinchange an ice dragon.

For Dany to qualify, she would have to sacrifice a child (perhaps a dragon?) for another (perhaps a human life?).  Alternatively, she'd have to be prepared to sacrifice herself (so far, others have died in her stead -- namely, Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo -- the death order corresponding to the birth order of the three dragon namesakes Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon, respectively).

That's just wishful thinking on your part.  For my part, I do wish Jon will stay dead.  His story is complete and for the betterment of the plot should die from the wounds he got from the Bowen Knife.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That's just wishful thinking on your part.  For my part, I do wish Jon will stay dead.  His story is complete and for the betterment of the plot should die from the wounds he got from the Bowen Knife.

It's 'wishful thinking' on your part that Jon isn't coming back from the dead.  Apart from the mountain-full of symbolic evidence in support of his resurrection,

Spoiler

the Show (written by D&D who received the major symbolic and plot highlights directly from GRRM's mouth, whether anyone likes it or not)

proves it definitively...

In any case, one man's 'wishful thinking' is another's 'speculation' and is ultimately GRRM's 'equivocation'!  

[The Commentator]

17 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

It's 'wishful thinking' on your part that Jon isn't coming back from the dead.  Apart from the mountain-full of symbolic evidence in support of his resurrection,

  Hide contents

the Show (written by D&D who received the major symbolic and plot highlights directly from GRRM's mouth, whether anyone likes it or not)

proves it definitively...

In any case, one man's 'wishful thinking' is another's 'speculation' and is ultimately GRRM's 'equivocation'!  

It is wishful thinking on my part for Jon to stay dead.  I am anti-Jon and pro-Dany, which is probably the opposite of you.  

Spoiler

The show doesn't prove anything.  That trainwreck of a show has already gone in their own direction.  

 

[Pride of Driftmark]

In my opinion, the prophecies don't matter. George's works show us that prophecy (take the Stallion Who Mounts the World, for instance) are convenient tools for political idealists, but have no real binding meaning. There probably won't be a prince who was promised, and even if there is, it won't be who we expect, and it likely will be highly symbolic/ flexible with the prophecy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Stannis was The Prince after all. Everyone's been telling us he is the whole time. Jon and Daenerys are both integral to the story's unraveling, but their final purpose will probably be less incredible than many fans make it out to be.

Bottom line, in this one fan's opinion, bickering over prophecies is exactly what George wants us to do, because it's exactly what the characters in the book do. Both in universe and outside of universe, all personages involved will be surprised. 

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Pride of Driftmark said:

Bottom line, in this one fan's opinion, bickering over prophecies is exactly what George wants us to do

He wants us to go on bickering into infinity...it gives him power and immortality in the 'weirnet' (what do you think the 'weirnet' is, if not this, we, us, now in the unending fractal dance celebrating his genius...?) and he is a master of suspenseful equivocation of the highest most infuriating order!

[bent branch]

On 1/22/2018 at 6:27 PM, LynnS said:

Here's an outline of this idea:

What I'm suggesting is a triune god with three heads or a body (Drogon) mind (Dany) and soul (Rhaegar) combined in one. 
 

I think the answer is yes.  Whenever Dany dreams of Rhaegar in his black armor or wearing his armor; this is another way of depicting the black dragon and it's armor.  Dany's vision of the  the man limned in flame during Mirri's resurrection ritual is a depiction of a soul limned in flame.  She sees the great wolf and the great dragon.
 

Aeron Damphair says that memories are the bones of the soul.  Who's memory is the nightmare on the Trident?  Not Dany's, but Rhaegar's. 

Melisandre isn't just interested in hatching dragon eggs:

The dragon gods of the Targs are the great dragons. 

I think this is the riddle of the valyrian sphinx with the head of a man or woman and the body of a dragon; that it's possible to have a second life in the body of a dragon.  That's a dragon with two heads; the third is the one who bonds with the dragon or rides the dragon.

Rhaegar is the dragon who sings.      

One individual with three aspects is an old idea with many variations. It has mostly been put forward for Jon, but I have seen various ones for Dany too. If there is only one "dragon that was promised" it is Dany. GRRM is remarkably literal in his fulfillment of prophecy. Here is the prophecy in relation to the raising of dragons (AFFC-Chapter 25):

Quote

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Here are the elements of the scene from AGOT-Chapter 72 where Dany raises the dragons from stone:
 

Quote

 

...The first star was a comet, burning blood red.

...Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run.

...The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest of things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks.

...As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

 

So, every single element of this particular prophecy has been fulfilled and Dany is Azor Ahai. Anyone who argues against this is simply in denial. As Aemon says, the dragons prove it. However, is Dany the only one prophesied? Before considering anything else, let's look at the other prophecy of Azor Ahai (ACOK-Chapter 10):

Quote

In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

Some Dany supporters like to think that raising the dragons from stone was the same as Dany drawing the sword from the fire, but these two prophecies have elements that indicate that they are for different people at different times.

Element 1:  The red star bleed vs. the stars bleed--We know already that the red star is a comet. If you notice that in the second prophecy the starS bleed, we have a different astronomical phenomenon, a meteor shower. This is the first clue these are two separate events.

Element 2:  The dragons are hatched in summer vs. a day AFTER a long summer. Thus this is another indication these are two separate events. The cold breath of darkness indicates that this event will occur once winter has already begun. Fortunately, ADWD ended with the story now in winter (except for the two battles removed by the publisher).

Because of the elements in these two prophecies, we know that these are two separate events and that one of has happened while the other has not. But do they indicate different people? I would say yes because of what the prophecies say about the person who raises dragons and the person who draws the sword:

...Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

and

...and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him

So, both of these actions indicate that who ever performs them is Azor Ahai without any equivocations. Whoever performs these actions is Azor Ahai and, therefore, need not perform any other actions to fulfill the prophecy. Because of this, I don't believe any one person is Azor Ahai, no matter how well argued by the proponent of these theories. A single individual doesn't fulfill these two prophecies. If Dany ends up drawing a sword from a fire, then I will admit I was wrong.

The unfortunate part for those who advocate for Jon as Azor Ahai is that at this point he hasn't met any of the qualifications. I personally think the "dragon has three heads" will end up being three people who are together Azor Ahai and that Jon will be the person to draw the sword from the fire (I expect this to happen rather late in TWOW), and the last person will be Tyrion or Aegon, depending on whether all three heads need to be the descendents of Aerys and Rhaella (Dany and Jon both fit this qualification so I think the whole Aegon is fake crowd are jumping the gun).

As far as the dragon songs, each rider will have a song. From the imagery in Dany's dream, Drogo's song to Dany was one of Fire and Blood. Jon's dragon will probably sign a song of "Ice and Fire". If I knew what the third song was, I would probably be able to pick between Tyrion and Aegon for the third head.

[bent branch]

On 1/22/2018 at 11:40 PM, ravenous reader said:

The 'dragon' mount has to descend from Aerys and Rhaella; the skinchanger who 'rides' him does not necessarily have to be of this line.  The 'sphinx is the riddle'...

I don't see how the "sphinx is the riddle" leads to the conclusion there is a skinchanger involved in any of this. IF there is an unbound dragon, then maybe a skinchanger will have a shot at gaining control of one, but I suspect a bound dragon is incapable of being skinchanged.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, bent branch said:

One individual with three aspects is an old idea with many variations. It has mostly been put forward for Jon, but I have seen various ones for Dany too. If there is only one "dragon that was promised" it is Dany. GRRM is remarkably literal in his fulfillment of prophecy. Here is the prophecy in relation to the raising of dragons (AFFC-Chapter 25):

Here are the elements of the scene from AGOT-Chapter 72 where Dany raises the dragons from stone:
 

So, every single element of this particular prophecy has been fulfilled and Dany is Azor Ahai. Anyone who argues against this is simply in denial. As Aemon says, the dragons prove it. However, is Dany the only one prophesied? Before considering anything else, let's look at the other prophecy of Azor Ahai (ACOK-Chapter 10):

Some Dany supporters like to think that raising the dragons from stone was the same as Dany drawing the sword from the fire, but these two prophecies have elements that indicate that they are for different people at different times.

Element 1:  The red star bleed vs. the stars bleed--We know already that the red star is a comet. If you notice that in the second prophecy the starS bleed, we have a different astronomical phenomenon, a meteor shower. This is the first clue these are two separate events.

Element 2:  The dragons are hatched in summer vs. a day AFTER a long summer. Thus this is another indication these are two separate events. The cold breath of darkness indicates that this event will occur once winter has already begun. Fortunately, ADWD ended with the story now in winter (except for the two battles removed by the publisher).

Because of the elements in these two prophecies, we know that these are two separate events and that one of has happened while the other has not. But do they indicate different people? I would say yes because of what the prophecies say about the person who raises dragons and the person who draws the sword:

...Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

and

...and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him

So, both of these actions indicate that who ever performs them is Azor Ahai without any equivocations. Whoever performs these actions is Azor Ahai and, therefore, need not perform any other actions to fulfill the prophecy. Because of this, I don't believe any one person is Azor Ahai, no matter how well argued by the proponent of these theories. A single individual doesn't fulfill these two prophecies. If Dany ends up drawing a sword from a fire, then I will admit I was wrong.

The unfortunate part for those who advocate for Jon as Azor Ahai is that at this point he hasn't met any of the qualifications. I personally think the "dragon has three heads" will end up being three people who are together Azor Ahai and that Jon will be the person to draw the sword from the fire (I expect this to happen rather late in TWOW), and the last person will be Tyrion or Aegon, depending on whether all three heads need to be the descendents of Aerys and Rhaella (Dany and Jon both fit this qualification so I think the whole Aegon is fake crowd are jumping the gun).

As far as the dragon songs, each rider will have a song. From the imagery in Dany's dream, Drogo's song to Dany was one of Fire and Blood. Jon's dragon will probably sign a song of "Ice and Fire". If I knew what the third song was, I would probably be able to pick between Tyrion and Aegon for the third head.

We don't disagree on much here.  Dany can't be dismissed from the prophesy and Jon doesn't wake dragons from stone.  But I think there is a difference between waking the dragon and hatching dragon eggs.  Melisandre's first mission at Dragonstone was to wake the great dragon according to Davos.  I disagree on the interpretation that the dragon has three heads means that there will be three dragon riders and Jon will be one of them.  That's an old idea that has been tossed around for a long time.  Aemon seems to think it means that he must be one of her advisors, not one of the dragon riders.  I think it's more likely that Victarion will get his hands on one dragon and Martin will kill off at least one dragon.

Martin himself brings up the notion of triune gods a number of times:  Trios, the Morrigan and I think the 3-headed dragon as well.  Once again the notion Drogo's soul went into the black egg is another old idea.  I think that only dragon blood can bond with the eggs and Drogo was neither Targ nor dragon blood.  She sees his soul rise and depart on the funeral pyre.  She names the black egg after her beloved and that's the extent of it. 

I would also point out that Martin has said that dragon blood isn't a requirement for riding a dragon.  So the business that Jon is Rhaegars because that's necessary for riding a dragon is false.  It is a requirement, if you are bonding with a dragon,  Consider that Dany's dragon dreams are similar to the Stark wolf dreams when they become their familiars.   

This is essentially the riddle of the (valyrian) sphinx.  The body of a dragon and the the head of a man or woman.  We are shown this when Dany dreams of wearing Rhaegar's black armor.  Opening the visor reveals who is underneath.  I'm always surprised that people don't make the connection between black armor and Drogo's black skin which may as well be armor and skinchanging. 

As far as songs are concerned; everyone has a part to play in the song of ice and fire.  However, the great dragon singing to Dany in her dream is Rhaegar.   Rhaegar who spent so much time with his harp composing sad songs.

[bent branch]

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But I think there is a difference between waking the dragon and hatching dragon eggs.

AGOT-Chapter 11-"Dragon eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty. So Dany hatching those eggs was exactly the same as raising and/or waking the dragon from stone. As I said, GRRM is remarkably literal when fulfilling the prophecies he makes. As far as Melisandre goes, it has been firmly established that she is trying to make the prophecies come true rather just waiting for them to happen. So whatever she hoped to do at Dragonstone is neither here nor there.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I would also point out that Martin has said that dragon blood isn't a requirement for riding a dragon.  So the business that Jon is Rhaegars because that's necessary for riding a dragon is false.  It is a requirement, if you are bonding with a dragon,  Consider that Dany's dragon dreams are similar to the Stark wolf dreams when they become their familiars.

I disagree on the interpretation that the dragon has three heads means that there will be three dragon riders and Jon will be one of them.  That's an old idea that has been tossed around for a long time.  Aemon seems to think it means that he must be one of her advisors, not one of the dragon riders.  I think it's more likely that Victarion will get his hands on one dragon and Martin will kill off at least one dragon.

That there will be a rider for all three dragons is a given. GRRM would not have made the rules for dragon riders so clear if he didn't mean to have someone riding them. There has never been a dragon rider who was not a dragon lord and the only "dragon lords" left are people descended from the Targaryens. So GRRM did not say that dragonblood wasn't a requirement (if fact he has said the exact opposite in the novels and TWOIAF). What he said is that all the dragon riders did not need to be Targaryens. That is a big difference from not needing dragonblood as there are numerous people in the story with dragonblood who are not Targaryens.

As far as dear Aemon, yes, he curses his old body that cannot go to Dany, but that is because the dragon needs three heads. Targaryens are the dragon and Dany was alone. It will be interesting to see who ends up on dragons. I do think there is a chance that Victarion or Euron will get a dragon, but won't keep it. If fact both of them may, if my theory of about how the dragon horn works is correct. However, the chances that one or even both of them lives is very small. And it is almost impossible that there are only three dragon riders. The idea that one of the dragons die is a popular one in the fandom, but there isn't really any evidence for that in the text is there?

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Martin himself brings up the notion of triune gods a number of times:  Trios, the Morrigan and I think the 3-headed dragon as well.  Once again the notion Drogo's soul went into the black egg is another old idea.  I think that only dragon blood can bond with the eggs and Drogo was neither Targ nor dragon blood.  She sees his soul rise and depart on the funeral pyre.  She names the black egg after her beloved and that's the extent of it. 

Okay, Martin brings up the notion of triune gods, but there is never any suggestion that Azor Ahai is or will become a god. Azor Ahai is presented as a hero figure, not a deity. If you know of a quote that says differently, I am open to discussion with evidence. I don't think I said anything about different people's souls going into the dragons. But if people's souls were going into the eggs I don't think it was the souls of Targaryens who died 15 years ago. If that is the case, why Rhaegar? Why not Aerys or Rhaella? Saying that Rhaegar's soul entered Drogon is very arbitrary. Again, if you have evidence for this idea I'm willing to look at it. I agree that the bonding between dragons and their riders is similar. but not exactly the same as the Starks bonds with the direwolves and that is why I don't think a dragon that is bonded can be highjacked by a skinchanger.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is essentially the riddle of the (valyrian) sphinx.  The body of a dragon and the the head of a man or woman.  We are shown this when Dany dreams of wearing Rhaegar's black armor.  Opening the visor reveals who is underneath.  I'm always surprised that people don't make the connection between black armor and Drogo's black skin which may as well be armor and skinchanging.

I am still not getting Rhaegar out of anything you're saying. Dany dreams of herself wearing Rhaegar's black armor, but Jon also dreams of wearing black armor (this dream is the reason I think Jon is the one who pulls the sword from the fire - black ice armor and a flaming sword). This suggests Dany and Jon being connected rather than Dany and Rhaegar. The fact that Drogon is black and sings is extremely flimsy evidence that he is really Rhaegar in dragon form. As far as the Valyrian sphinx, they are not dragons. They are part dragon. This would suggest someone who is part Targaryen, not that Drogon is Rhaegar. We are told in AFFC that sphinxes always speaks in riddles and that Aemon said that the sphinx was the riddle not the riddler. Then we are told in ADWD that sphinxes and dragons riddle together. I'm really not getting a Targaryen as a sphinx at all. That is why I don't understand why you are associating the sphinx with Rhaegar when everything else would suggests a sphinx would be part Targ or not Targ at all. After all, we don't know if Aemon was talking about a regular sphinx or a valyrian sphinx. The sphinx who is a riddle, not the riddler is one of the most intriguing things in the novels. However, I am pretty sure the sphinx is not a Targ, although they may be a part Targ (like Tyrion or Jon).

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, bent branch said:

AGOT-Chapter 11-"Dragon eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty. So Dany hatching those eggs was exactly the same as raising and/or waking the dragon from stone. As I said, GRRM is remarkably literal when fulfilling the prophecies he makes. As far as Melisandre goes, it has been firmly established that she is trying to make the prophecies come true rather just waiting for them to happen. So whatever she hoped to do at Dragonstone is neither here nor there.

No not really.  The black egg is different from the others in that it is larger.  Illyrio likely can source dragon eggs from Asshai and we know from Bran's vision that dragons still live in Asshai.  Aemon implies that Summerhall was an attempt to hatch dragon eggs; so I think it's a good bet that the black egg was meant for Rhaegar born on that day.  Illyrio is slippery character and I take what he says with a grain of salt.

There is nothing firmly established unless it's in someone's head canon or has been repeated often enough that people think it's canon.

The tragedy at Summerhall was an attempt to hatch dragon eggs and it failed because the lore behind doing so has been lost.  Dany manages to hatch the eggs through some inexplicable understanding that she must brood them for nine months and then sacrifice Mirri Maaz Duur to make it happen.    This is after Mirri wakes the old powers. 

This is where Martin is not explicit in how the prophecies come about because it seems accidental rather than forced as Melisandre would have it.  Melisandre understands something about the blood sacrifice needed to wake the great dragon.  She doesn't have dragon eggs, so what is she talking about?

Dany sacrifices her own unborn son so that the egg that has been long dead can come back to life. She says herself that her unborn son was long dead and he is described with dragon features.  Essentially changing states with the dead dragon foetus.  This the death in exchange for life equation.

The black egg and the soul it contains are resurrected.  The other two eggs were viable to begin with. 

Dany's dreams of waking the dragon or even Aerys madness about transforming into a dragon; imply something other than hatching dragon eggs.

Before I go any further, do you think Dany can skinchange a dragon and is this what happens in her dragon dreams?  Is this not similar to wolf dreams? 

 

 

[Pikachu101]

There’s no legal precedent for Jon to be king, even if Robb did legitimise he’ll still choose to stay Lord Commander and give the throne to Sansa or Rickon because honour comes first. 

Even if he somehow does somehow become king (which is highly unlikely unless George turns this into a fairytale)I don’t see how that would stop him from being TPTWP. Rhaegar, Aegon, and Dany have all been assumed to be the prince even though they’d be ruling monarchs rather than an actual prince/princess.