Angel Eyes

Between being betrothed to Brandon, Petyr's affections for her, and being promised to Ned,

37 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Is that GRRM’s message, that love is bad?

Read Meathouse Man. Yes, that's his message. Or at least one of his messages. GRRM appears to have totally soured on the concept of love by early and frequent misfortune in that department. He seems to have moderated some since writing Meathouse Man, but not by much.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Is that GRRM’s message, that love is bad?

Well, romantic love, for sure. You know, the stupid Romeo/Juliet "if we can't be together, let's both DIE!!!!!!!" kind of thing. The possessive, hormonally driven near-insanity that, fortunately, abates in later life (mostly). Family love he's portrayed as "less bad", with Catelyn's obsessive "do anything to save MY BABIES!!" as probably the worst manifestation, but the Stark children's loyalty and concern for one another (excluding Sansa, of course, who's only for Sansa) as helping them to survive and retain their sanity. The "love" of friendship (I can hear you asking, how can anyone call it "love" if nobody gets f*cked?) seems to be the most positively portrayed, but here again, Ned gets himself scr*ed by his long-ago affection for Robert Baratheon and Cat gets Ned scr*ed by her recollection of Petyr Baelish as a reasonably nice little boy.

In short - I suspect you're right.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, romantic love, for sure. You know, the stupid Romeo/Juliet "if we can't be together, let's both DIE!!!!!!!" kind of thing. The possessive, hormonally driven near-insanity that, fortunately, abates in later life (mostly). Family love he's portrayed as "less bad", with Catelyn's obsessive "do anything to save MY BABIES!!" as probably the worst manifestation, but the Stark children's loyalty and concern for one another (excluding Sansa, of course, who's only for Sansa) as helping them to survive and retain their sanity. The "love" of friendship (I can hear you asking, how can anyone call it "love" if nobody gets f*cked?) seems to be the most positively portrayed, but here again, Ned gets himself scr*ed by his long-ago affection for Robert Baratheon and Cat gets Ned scr*ed by her recollection of Petyr Baelish as a reasonably nice little boy.

In short - I suspect you're right.

I guess GRRM’s never read Beren and Luthien. Though they died, their love led to the theft of a Silmaril and the downfall of Morgoth (Tolkien’s Satan).

Edited by Angel Eyes

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GRRM has a wife who he seems fond of so he can’t hate love that much, nor would it be a very inspirational message for his life’s work haha.

I always got the impression that Catelyn found Brandon attractive and at least had a crush on him. I doubt she was in love, as she seemed more bothered that Ned wasn’t as hot rather than that Brandon had died.

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Edited 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 7:26 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Who did Catelyn love?

All three of them . Petyr was brotherly love , Brandon was erotic love , and Ned was empathic love , because Ned was not her first choice nor was he hers , but they grew to care for one another .

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On 1/24/2018 at 0:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Is that GRRM’s message, that love is bad?

More like it's not a viable basis for marriages between nobles.

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On 1/24/2018 at 3:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Is that GRRM’s message, that love is bad?

No. Not at all. 

It has to be mutual. It can’t be a hero who “rescues” anyone. It has to be mutual. Typical heroes never win in GRRM stories.  

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Well of course this is only head canon, but the impression I got from her talks with Jaime is, that Catelyn might once have fallen in love with his thirteen years old self. When Tywin arranged a marriage between Lysa and Jaime, he had to stay at Riverrun for a fortnight - only slightly younger than Catelyn. Considering Sansa's taste for young Joffrey, maybe her mother was very much alike her when she was around Sansa's age.

Those many times Catelyn thinks about Jaime, her thoughts are often accompaigned by physical descriptions like his "perfect teeth". And Jaime seems to know somehow, if you look at those bits from their talk in the cellars of Riverrun:

 

Quote

“Lady Stark,” he said, in a voice hoarse with disuse. “I fear I am in no condition to receive you.” “Look at me, ser.” “The light hurts my eyes. A moment, if you would.” Jaime Lannister had been allowed no razor since the night he was taken in the Whispering Wood, and a shaggy beard covered his face, once so like the queen’s. Glinting gold in the lamplight, the whiskers made him look like some great 
yellow beast, magnificent even in chains. His unwashed hair fell to his shoulders in ropes and tangles, the clothes were rotting on his body, his face was pale and wasted... and even so, the power and the beauty of the man were still apparent.

(...)

“A man chained hand and foot should keep a more courteous tongue in his mouth, ser. I did not come here to be threatened.” “No? Then surely it was to have your pleasure of me? It’s said that widows grow weary of their empty beds. We of the Kingsguard vow never to wed, but I suppose I could still service you if that’s what you need. Pour us some of that wine and slip out of that gown and we’ll see if I’m up 
to it.”
 Catelyn stared down at him in revulsion. Was there ever a man as beautiful or as vile as this one?"

(...)

Brandon was different from his brother, wasn’t he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me.” “Brandon was nothing like you.” “If you say so. You and he were to wed.” “He was on his way to Riverrun when...” Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. “...when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King’s Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do.” She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

(...)

"I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father... or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?” Jaime gave a drunken laugh. “Come, Lady Stark, don’t you find this all terribly amusing?” “I find nothing about you amusing, Kingslayer.” “That name again. I don’t think I’ll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn’t he? I never eat off another man’s trencher. Besides, you’re not half so lovely as my sister.” His smile cut

 

Dear @Angel Eyes, may I know why this matter is of interest to you? Is there a theory? Does it help to understand past things?

 

My idea would only bring a certain balance between the Tully sisters, if Catelyn wanted Jaime who was meant for Lysa and if Lysa wanted Petyr who was hoping for Catelyn. And if elegant Catelyn feels inferior to Jaime because of her looks, that would only make her more sure to team him up with ugly and freshly lovesick Brienne.

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If the apple didn't fall far from the tree, then I suppose Cat may have initially thought she was in love with Brandon - just as Sansa once believed she was in love with Joff.

Not much evidence for such a scenario but you never know how time may have altered Cat's views on matters of the heart.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

Well of course this is only head canon, but the impression I got from her talks with Jaime is, that Catelyn might once have fallen in love with his thirteen years old self. When Tywin arranged a marriage between Lysa and Jaime, he had to stay at Riverrun for a fortnight - only slightly younger than Catelyn. Considering Sansa's taste for young Joffrey, maybe her mother was very much alike her when she was around Sansa's age.

Those many times Catelyn thinks about Jaime, her thoughts are often accompaigned by physical descriptions like his "perfect teeth". And Jaime seems to know somehow, if you look at those bits from their talk in the cellars of Riverrun:

 

 

Dear @Angel Eyes, may I know why this matter is of interest to you? Is there a theory? Does it help to understand past things?

 

My idea would only bring a certain balance between the Tully sisters, if Catelyn wanted Jaime who was meant for Lysa and if Lysa wanted Petyr who was hoping for Catelyn. And if elegant Catelyn feels inferior to Jaime because of her looks, that would only make her more sure to team him up with ugly and freshly lovesick Brienne.

It’s to understand past things, I guess. The biggest theory about Catelyn that I’ve heard is that Robb is Brandon’s son, not Ned’s and that’s why she hates Jon. 

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Thanks for clarifying, @Angel Eyes. Maybe Edmure has something to say about this and maybe TWOW lets him talk.

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The biggest theory about Catelyn that I’ve heard is that Robb is Brandon’s son, not Ned’s and that’s why she hates Jon.

Would make some sense, but a number of her chapters go into great detail about how she has always done as she was told and was always the perfect lady, all prim and proper and not doing anything untoward or unladylike, it just seems a little too thin.

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17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

The biggest theory about Catelyn that I’ve heard is that Robb is Brandon’s son, not Ned’s and that’s why she hates Jon. 

We see things through her POV over several books, and there's no indication that Robb is anybody else but Ned's son. 

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On 23/01/2018 at 1:48 PM, Angel Eyes said:

What’s with it? Because I need something to fill the lower part of. The. Post.

Well, maybe you could try to actually write an OP instead? Just a thought...

The fact remains, all your threads but the first few are click bait threads w/ incomplete headings. I'm only voicing my opinion, of course, but I find it very annoying. :)

 

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On 1/22/2018 at 8:39 PM, SecretWeapon said:

not LF, she probably found Brandon hot back then but she grew to truly love Ned

this is the truth. She loved ned. Remember her last thoughts before she died was about ned liking her hair

Edited by snow is the man

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7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, maybe you could try to actually write an OP instead? Just a thought...

The fact remains, all your threads but the first few are click bait threads w/ incomplete headings. I'm only voicing my opinion, of course, but I find it very annoying. :)

 

Well, thanks.

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