Jaehaerys Tyrell Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 There seems to be a strong correlation in ASOIAF between third sons and homosexuality. Renly, Loras and Daeron were all third sons. There are exceptions to the rule - Laenor was firstborn, Victarion and Theon aren’t gay. But is it possible GRRM wants us to notice a pattern? It could be a possible explanation for Maester Aemon’s decision to reject the throne and for Benjen to join the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Those are some muddy waters you're wading through. Jon Con is an only child yet seems to have homosexual feelings for Rhaegar. Third sons tend to be surplus and need to earn their own way in life, unless your dad is Walder Frey, in which case you're married off. Joining the NW for a few noble houses is deemed a damn fine idea, and it distances you from any suspicion that you would attempt to usurp. I think that's all there is to it. And there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals identify the NW as a good place. Most of them are convicts each with varying degree's of felonious behavior in their past. Furthermore, Bowen Marsh, an experienced member of the NW is prejudiced towards Satin for his previous status as a whore. Combined with your points made I don't think there's any plausibility in your notion. Besides, if you want to be gay without prejudice I guess you could just go to Dorne? I don't think they give a damn about who you put what in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaehaerys Tyrell Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said: Those are some muddy waters you're wading through. Jon Con is an only child yet seems to have homosexual feelings for Rhaegar. Third sons tend to be surplus and need to earn their own way in life, unless your dad is Walder Frey, in which case you're married off. Joining the NW for a few noble houses is deemed a damn fine idea, and it distances you from any suspicion that you would attempt to usurp. I think that's all there is to it. And there is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals identify the NW as a good place. Most of them are convicts each with varying degree's of felonious behavior in their past. Furthermore, Bowen Marsh, an experienced member of the NW is prejudiced towards Satin for his previous status as a whore. Combined with your points made I don't think there's any plausibility in your notion. Besides, if you want to be gay without prejudice I guess you could just go to Dorne? I don't think they give a damn about who you put what in. Hm some good points, I’m not particularly sold on it myself but I just wondered if there was a pattern there we were meant to notice. I can see the Citadel possibly being a favourable option for some gay younger sons the Night’s Watch does seem rather miserable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 32 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said: Hm some good points, I’m not particularly sold on it myself but I just wondered if there was a pattern there we were meant to notice. I can see the Citadel possibly being a favourable option for some gay younger sons the Night’s Watch does seem rather miserable. I think given the notoriety for homosexuality and child abuse within religion IRL would make it very close to the bone. But Oldtown is where Satin worked/was arrested, so you could be onto something regarding the the male only environment and the pledge of chastity. The NW is in the North and the Northmen are very simple minded people who adore the classic strong man who sires many children. No refuge for homosexuals to my knowledge. I don't think the author was trying to do much more than be inclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said: There seems to be a strong correlation in ASOIAF between third sons and homosexuality. Renly, Loras and Daeron were all third sons. There are exceptions to the rule - Laenor was firstborn, Victarion and Theon aren’t gay. But is it possible GRRM wants us to notice a pattern? It could be a possible explanation for Maester Aemon’s decision to reject the throne and for Benjen to join the Watch. Three examples confirming and three examples denying do not make a strong correlation. Have you taken a statistics class before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said: There seems to be a strong correlation in ASOIAF between third sons and homosexuality. Renly, Loras and Daeron were all third sons. There are exceptions to the rule - Laenor was firstborn, Victarion and Theon aren’t gay. But is it possible GRRM wants us to notice a pattern? It could be a possible explanation for Maester Aemon’s decision to reject the throne and for Benjen to join the Watch. I really don't see a pattern here. Also, do we have any text suggesting Aemon and/or Benjen were gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Well, there’s a weak correlation between Sansa having a crush on third sons. She liked Waymar Royce and Loras Tyrell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Who cares ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 8 hours ago, Stormking902 said: Who cares ?? This basically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 No, there isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Loras Tyrell has shown no interest in any other man or woman besides Renly. The same could be said about Jon Con and his love for Rhaegar. They are not like say Jorah, who once he is away from Dany he finds a whore who looks like her and sleeps with her, despite the claim of his undying love for his Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 23/01/2018 at 4:06 PM, TheThreeEyedCow said: Besides, if you want to be gay without prejudice I guess you could just go to Dorne? I don't think they give a damn about who you put what in. Do we know this? I don't think Dornish attitudes to homosexuality are mentioned. They seem to be more tolerant of female sexuality but that doesn't necessarily follow. We know Oberyn wasn't held back by his reputation for liking boys, but then neither was Loras particularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Do we know this? I don't think Dornish attitudes to homosexuality are mentioned. They seem to be more tolerant of female sexuality but that doesn't necessarily follow. We know Oberyn wasn't held back by his reputation for liking boys, but then neither was Loras particularly. Well the above was probably more to do with the fact that these are privileged men who have a lot more freedom. No, I can't say Dorne is gay friendly but the Dornish have been described being sexually licentious so I can only imagine that it's more open to different sexualities. They're more 'open minded' and that's one of several things that set the Dornish apart from their Andal counterparts in the marches and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I think this is reaching more than a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 1/23/2018 at 4:46 PM, Jaehaerys Tyrell said: There seems to be a strong correlation in ASOIAF between third sons and homosexuality. Renly, Loras and Daeron were all third sons. There are exceptions to the rule - Laenor was firstborn, Victarion and Theon aren’t gay. But is it possible GRRM wants us to notice a pattern? It could be a possible explanation for Maester Aemon’s decision to reject the throne and for Benjen to join the Watch. I don't think so. Renly simply had to be a third son for the plot reasons (that set the "my claim is longer than yours" conflict between Stannis and him). Loras' older brothers seem like an afterthought - Garlan is mentioned in the text in Book 2, Willas - in Book 3. So it was a different reason for Renly to be a third son, and Loras wasn't even the third son (initially, he was "the youngest son") until later books. Plus, a rule: "a third son is gay" sounds absolutely silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Waltyr is third son of Walder's seventh wife so maybe for that reason his father chose Elmar instead of him as Arya's bethrothed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 This reminded me of a research showing that younger sons are more likely to be homosexual. I can't provide anything on it right now so of course don't take my word on it and make a search yourself. I think I've found it when I was searching for stuff on "gay uncle hypothesis" so that may be a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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