Were the lanisters getting too much political influence at court?

[Varysblackfyre321]

Again can't take credit for having thought of this another poster had brought up previously in another thread but it's something I myself have taken as a just; that idea the lanisters having gained too much control in government by the time Ned arrives at KL. 

But have they really?

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On January 22, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Bernie Mac said:

 lol You are also forgetting how incredibly humble you are. 

And Renly as Master of Law and the Kings Brother has all of that in spades. It seems odd that someone as intelligent as yourself can not see that?

Do you want to explain how being best friends with the Queen's brother is going to give the current Master of Law more influence and more access to the King that Renly currently has?

No he does not. Not once in the books does Robert complain that the Lannisters control his court. You are offering a disingenuous argument here. In the show he does, in the books he does not. 

How much power do you think squires have? And this is the best you can come up with? There are three people from the Stormlands sitting on the the Small Council and zero people from the Westerlands yet the Lannisters dominate because they have two squires to the King, squires who are literally treated like shit by the King?

Please explain how Lancel and Tyrek are more dominant in the affairs government than Robert's two brothers, the Master of Law and the Master of Ships?

Citation?

There is zero evidence to suggest any of Robert's Kingsguard got their position due to Cersei. Barristan and Jaime were already in before Robert was even betrothed to Cersei, Meryn Trant is a Stormlander, Aerys Oakheart makes zero mention of this in his POV (nor does Cersei for that matter in any of her POVs), Mandon Moore from the Vale. 

Possibly Preston Greenfield got his appointment due to Cersei, though there is zero evidence to actually suggest that. 

So so far your big evidence is squires and some made up shit that is not backed up by the books. You are not off to a good start. 

Nicknamed the dog. Hugely influential, right?

Look at how weak your argument is that you have to resort to repeating claims you made just a paragraph ago. 

Yes. Jon Arryn is able to appoint a fellow Vale man, someone his wife recommended him, to become the Master of Coin. As we see from Tyrion the Master of Coin is responsible for a huge amount of appointments. 

And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he'd named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large; merchants' sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from their results, far more able than their highborn predecessors.

No one had ever thought to question the appointments, and why should they? Littlefinger was no threat to anyone.

 

The men of the Small Council are responsible for the hiring of the bureaucracy of the Government. Both the Master of Law and the Master of Ships would have similar titles to hand out. 

Because of two squires and the Hound? Come on. 

And yet she is clearly not doing a good job at it. Under Margaery the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, Tarly and Rowan all sat on the Small Coucil. There was talk of other Tyrells coming in to act as Grandmaester and Master of Coin (with Garth's sons taking prominent positions in the Gold Cloaks). 

The Lannister so called dominance is nowhere near that of the Tyrells or other royal consort factions. 

Why says the Tyrells were as greedy and grasping as the Lannisters under Robert?

And all the examples I gave show just what real dominance looks like. The Lannisters are less dominant than House Baratheon is and at a similar level to House Arryn under Jon. 

And Tywin is sitting on his arse while this happens? Tywin was able to beat Ned to Kings Landing when Ned was much closer to Kings Landing than Storm's End is. 

And how does it happens months before?

lol minutes?

Making up bullshit does not add credibility to an already poorly thought out argument. 

Except Robb is clear that Tommen comes before Stannis and Robb does not feel that Tommen or Myrcella have wronged him. 

"That makes him evil," Robb replied. "I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert's eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey."

 

Except he does not as Tyrion and the author himself make it abundantly clear that the only reason Tywin leaves for the Westerlands is that Stannis should have been stuck at Storm's End for months. 

"Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?" - Tyrion

Storm's End is a hugely formidable castle, and should have been able to hold out much longer, as it did during Robert's Rebellion when Stannis was inside rather than outside. And both Tyrion and Tywin knew that Stannis was a methodical commander rather than a daring one, and therefore would be unlikely to leave an enemy stronghold untaken in his rear.  -GRRM

 

He actually does not given that Tywin's force at the nearby Harrenhal, the force at Kings Landing and the Walls of Kings Landing should be more than enough to cope with Stannis' 21k. 

You are. Renly has a claim, it is why the Tyrells get into bed with him in the first place. He does not have the best claim, no one has claimed that, but when you say that Renly has zero claim it is quite clear that you are confusing the words heir and claim. 

The Tyrells and the largest army gathered in the war of the five kings seem to disagree with that. 

Well there is you problem, you are presuming that the laws you have in your head carry as much weight in GRRM's fictional universe. They don't, that is why he gets to be right. 

Well, the short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpertations, and often contradictory. -GRRM

Renly was happy to reward his brother with Storm's End for stepping aside. 

 

Except he does not. Both his words and actions make it perfectly clear that he does not know. 

Why does he not share this information with Ned when he is warning Ned that their lives are in danger from Cersei?

Why does he need someone who is the spitting image of Robert's lost love Lyanna if he does not need to tempt Robert to end his marriage?

Why does no one come to this same conclusion, incuding Cat and Stannis, when he reveals his plans to marry Robert to Margaery?

 

First of all he does not know. That is canon until further evidence comes forward. 

Second of all no one claimed he was next in line. Had someone claimed this then you would finally be right about something, sadly no one has. 

Unless they can teleport that is not likely. 

You do realise both Littlefinger and Varys have spies, right? Renly, to the readers knowledge, does not. 

Arryn was told by Stannis and they actually don't know, they suspect (and are correct), but knowing and suspecting are two different things. 

Renly claims he did not know, none of his actions make it seem that he did know so until further evidence comes along it is canon that he did not know. 

 

lol you repeating this does not make it any more true. 

 

This is the quote that sparked the question. 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I've taken it for granted that the Lannister influence was considered too great in KL at the time that Ned came in as Hand.  From the Lannister house guard having a suspiciously large presence without a similar House Baratheon of KL guard in place made up of loyalists from Storm's End, to the reliance on borrowing Lannister gold, to the presence of Pycelle (a Lannister lap dog), the access Lancel had as squire to King Robert, Tywin and Jaime being named wardens, Tywin being prepared to get Robert Arryn as a hostage/ward (though Jon intended him to go to Dragonstone), and the presumptive heir adorning the Lannister sigil as much as the Baratheon sigil.  That is a lot of influence.  Robert hated Cersei and he hated kinging and usually appeased the Lannisters to avoid fussing with them.  They had far too much influence.  Had Robert named Stannis hand or hell even Renly that might have been rooted out.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

It was quite obvious. You can see many times POV characters (Ned, Arya and Sansa) in AGOT mentioning the presence of red cloaks (Lannister Man-at-Arms), you scarcely saw the presence of golden yellow cloaks (Baratheon Man-at-Arms), Robert had two squires, both were Lannisters, Jaime was still in the Kingsguard, even though he should have gone to the Wall or at least sent back to Casterly Rock, Cersei had more authority than it was suitable for a Queen Consort, she took total advantage of Robert's lack of interest in ruling, as he spent a lot of his time drinking, eating and whoring. Although I dare say Littlefinger could have outplayed them all and he could be the one having a bigger influence in the capital, since he was the one controlling the Gold Cloaks and he also had his little network of spies. Most of the Kingsguard were also Lannister creatures.

[Bernie Mac]

15 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This is the quote that sparked the question. 

I feel that we have to take Ned's thoughts with a pinch of salt on this one. He has not even been to visit Robert in Kings Landing since before he was married to Cersei and yet on hearing that Robert is bringing his two brother-in-laws to Winterfell has this to say

"The queen's brothers are also in the party," she told him.

Ned grimaced at that. There was small love between him and the queen's family, Catelyn knew. The Lannisters of Casterly Rock had come late to Robert's cause, when victory was all but certain, and he had never forgiven them. "Well, if the price for Robert's company is an infestation of Lannisters, so be it. It sounds as though Robert is bringing half his court."

 

Ned is heavily prejudiced against the Lannisters, three Lannisters is seen as an infestation. 

 

It should also be noted that Ned is a Northerner and Wintefell incredibly spare in relation to how the Andals act. The only noble ward/page/squite Ned has is the hostage Theon, something that would be uncommon in the South for the equivalent Houses of Stark's status and his own wife took barely any entourage. perhaps just a Septa or two. 

 

Ned's parents were cousins and Jon Arryn was either single while Ned was his ward or likely still married to his second wife, his cousin Rowena Arryn, while Jon's heir was an Arryn married to another Arryn. Ned would never have had the chance to witness to great Houses marry but what we see from the Lannisters and Robert pales into comparison what we see with the Tyrells and Joffrey/Tommen, the Dornish under Daeron II or the Hightowers under Viserys I. 

 

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I've taken it for granted that the Lannister influence was considered too great in KL at the time that Ned came in as Hand.  From the Lannister house guard having a suspiciously large presence without a similar House Baratheon of KL guard in place made up of loyalists from Storm's End,

Why would they? Robert has spent more time in both the Crowlands and the Vale than he has in the Stormlands. It may have made sense that his initial guards and courtiers 20 years ago were predominately Stormland men but being king for almost two decades, and his brother being the Lord of the Stormlands, would mean his forces are more varied but likely with a greater focus on the Crownlands. 

 

But Robert does have his own men, his own sworn swords and knights as well as 2,000 Gold Cloaks at his command. When he visits Winterfell he takes half of the Royal Court with him, which amouts to 300 many of which are knights and men at arms. 

The visitors poured through the castle gates in a river of gold and silver and polished steel, three hundred strong, a pride of bannermen and knights, of sworn swords and freeriders. Over their heads a dozen golden banners whipped back and forth in the northern wind, emblazoned with the crowned stag of Baratheon.

The trouble for Ned (and Renly and Stannis) is that those same knights and sworn swords are going to owe their fealty and loyalty to Robert's wife and children rather than his brothers or an outsider like Ned. The same is true with any Lord, the Stark bannerman after Ned's death are still going to owe their loyalty to Cat and her children over anyone else. The same is true in the Vale with Lysa and her son.  Because of the nature of the POV series, an unreliable narrator, we see a clear divide between Baratheons and Lannisters at court, to the majority of the knights and soldiers who have lived and served Robert and Cersei these last two decades they would see them as one family, the royal family. 

And can I ask where it is said that there is a suspiciously large amount of House Lannister guards in the capital? We are told

The queen has a dozen knights and a hundred men-at-arms who will do whatever she commands … enough to overwhelm what remains of my own household guard. And for all I know, her brother Jaime may be riding for King's Landing even as we speak, with a Lannister host at his back."

But there is no indication that these men who are loyal to Cersei are Lannisters. She is the Queen, considerably charming when she wants to be and would have had many years to build up her own alliances among the Kings subjects. 

 

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

to the reliance on borrowing Lannister gold,

Not a reliance. Robert borrowed largely from everyone, the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Faith, the Iron Bank...

And this is hardly unusual, it was said that Aegon V owed his crown to the Lannister gold, Johanna Lannister borrowed huge amounts of gold to the Crown in the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons while Tywin paid of the Crown's debt to Bravvos to stop Aerys from going to war. 

The Westerlands is the richest region in the realm, Robert borrowing from them is doing nothing that his predessors  have done in the past. 

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

to the presence of Pycelle (a Lannister lap dog),

Not really common knowledge. It only towards the end of the book does Ned begin to suspect that Pycelle is more loyal to the Queen than he is to him. 

Plus it is the Citadel who appoints the Grand Maester, there is nothing Cersei can do about that appointment. 

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

the access Lancel had as squire to King Robert,

Again, Tywin and his uncle Tion served under Aegon V and no one would have said that the Lannisters were dominating Aegon V's court. 

Lancel and Tyrek are used as Robert's lapdogs. They have no real power and influence, what they have is a prestigious education. 

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

Tywin and Jaime being named wardens,

Come on? Robert likely did not name Tywin warden any more than he named Mace Warden. These are hereditary titles that they had before Robert was King. 

Jaime being named (towards the end of Robert's reign) is a sign of great influence, but it is hardly evidence that they were the most dominant House. His House was. 

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

and the presumptive heir adorning the Lannister sigil as much as the Baratheon sigil. 

Not actually uncommon. Many royal sigils feature both the Houses of the parents of the King

4 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

 

  They had far too much influence.  Had Robert named Stannis hand or hell even Renly that might have been rooted out.

Cersei, the Queen, his wife, has influence. Why would she not? Why would he want his wife and children routed out by his brothers. 

Robert, like most Kings, would want his heirs secure and that is why men like Henry VIII granted first the father and brother(s) of both the Boelyn's and Seymour's great influence, power and titles in a bid to secure his legacy. The only reason it looks bad to us is because we the reader know the truth. The reality for Robert and the royal retainers is that Cersei and Robert's children should be owed their fealty. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lancel and Tyrek are used as Robert's lapdogs. They have no real power and influence, what they have is a prestigious education. 

Ned's concern about Robert's squires being Lannisters was that it was an example of how he was surrounded by Lannisters night and day. Squires have access (as Lancel proved). I think being the king's squire is about as big a leg-up a boy could get though, and would be expected to lead to bigger things in the future. 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not actually uncommon. Many royal sigils feature both the Houses of the parents of the King

Is that actually the case in the 7K? We know of Targaryens like Maekar adapting the sigil, but I don't know of any who quartered them with their mother's sigil.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not a reliance. Robert borrowed largely from everyone, the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Faith, the Iron Bank..

Aren't the Lannisters owed the most though? My recollection is that about 50% of the Crown's debt is owed to them (I might be wrong though). Irrespective, it's certainly an important thing to bear in mind, particularly when Robert was clearly intent on continuing with his spending. 

Generally speaking, I think it's clear that Cersei's working to insert as many Lannisters and their allies into positions of power and prestige as possible. That's shown by Jaime being made Warden of the East, and her attempts to name him Hand. She's not the only player though. Renly was clearly also playing a similar game alongside the Tyrells. Jon Arryn as Hand obviously had influence, as did LF (who kept Slynt in post despite Stannis's objections). Lannister influence wasn't overwhelming, but it was very strong. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

Personal sigils are often a thing, and Joffrey mating the Lannister lion with Baratheon stag really wasn't that big of a deal beyond demonstrating Lannister arrogance. The presence of a household guard for the queen isn't much of anything in of itself either. Ned, Renly and others had their own men at arms in court. If Robert didn't, whose fault is that? Naming Jaime Warden of the East is certainly a sign of Lannister influence, but where did all this influence stem from? From the man not even at court, Tywin Lannister and the crown's debt to him. It's a clever way to cultivate Lannister influence in a regime where they started behind the game almost given their actions during the rebellion. Fostering Sweetrobin, the Lannister squires, and all these other favors stem from the fact that Robert was indebted to them.

[Lion of the West]

The thing I see is that the Lannisters only had influence in the vaccum created by Robert. While Robert was a coward in that he always bent over for the Lannisters its pretty clear that he is in as much control as he wants to and that he is in no way a puppet for anyone. But yeah the Lannisters had much influence but I'd say they had precious little power at court. For at a word, Robert could dispense with all their lackeys and allies with little the Lannisters could do in return.

To this I also see a connection between the Lannisters at court and the Martells during Daeron II's reign. Their enemies claim they hold to much power but I have no clue about how much power a wife's house should hold when its a Great House, same when the Tyrells moves in with the Baratheons and Lannisters in the Red Keep.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ned's concern about Robert's squires being Lannisters was that it was an example of how he was surrounded by Lannisters night and day. Squires have access (as Lancel proved). I think being the king's squire is about as big a leg-up a boy could get though, and would be expected to lead to bigger things in the future

But even that may be slightly paranoid no?

I mean without the threat of Robert finding out about the twincest the lanisters have no reason to want Robert dead.

He will continuesly borrow money from them, Joffery will suceed him and quite frankly he's likely going to eat and drink  himself to death in a few years anyway.

 

[Adam Yozza]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But even that may be slightly paranoid no?

I mean without the threat of Robert finding out about the twincest the lanisters have no reason to want Robert dead.

He will continuesly borrow money from them, Joffery will suceed him and quite frankly he's likely going to eat and drink  himself to death in a few years anyway.

 

As proven by Cersei' own thought, she was planning to get rid off Robert eventually whether he found out about the incest or not. She just wanted to get rid of Stannis and Renly first and only moved up her plans because of the threat Ned represented.

And given that it was in fact one of his Lannister squires that caused Roberts death, then I have to say no, not paranoid at all. Bang on the money, actually.

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

As proven by Cersei' own thought, she was planning to get rid off Robert eventually whether he found out about the incest or not. She just wanted to get rid of Stannis and Renly first and only moved up her plans because of the threat Ned represented.

And given that it was in fact one of his Lannister squires that caused Roberts death, then I have to say no, not paranoid at all. Bang on the money, actually.

Reader's hindsight.

We the readers know what Cersi was planning.

Ned prior to discovering the twincest had no real reason to think Robert's two squires to be a threat other than them being Laninster; a family that stands to ultimately gain nothing by killing Robert

[Adam Yozza]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Reader's hindsight.

We the readers know what Cersi was planning.

Ned prior to discovering the twincest had no real reason to think Robert's two squires to be a threat other than them being Laninster; a family that stands to ultimately gain nothing by killing Robert

Except at that point he already suspects the Lannister's of being involved with Jon Arryn's murder. Hell, Lysa Arryn; a woman Ned has no reason to distrust; sent a message warning about the Lannisters. So no it's not just readers hindsight. Ned was suspicious and believed the Kings life to be in danger from the Lannisters. Given the information he has, that's not an unreasonable assumption, especially considering that he was 100% correct in the end.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except at that point he already suspects the Lannister's of being involved with Jon Arryn's murder. Hell, Lysa Arryn; a woman Ned has no reason to distrust; sent a message warning about the Lannisters. So no it's not just readers hindsight. Ned was suspicious and believed the Kings life to be in danger from the Lannisters. Given the information he has, that's not an unreasonable assumption, especially considering that he was 100% correct in the end.

A woman he's no reason to trust.

Catelyn hasn't seen her since they were girls and Ned probably once if ever. 

His suspicions are primarely motivated by his prejudices against the family in general. 

 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

A woman he's no reason to trust.

Catelyn hasn't seen her since they were girls and Ned probably once if ever. 

Catelyn hadn't seen Lysa for only five years. A letter from his wife's sister stating that the queen's family murdered her husband, Hand of the King and foster father to Ned surely seems like enough reason for Ned to worry. He goes to King's Landing to investigate Jon Arryn's death. Ned doesn't have the clearest picture of what's going on, and he obviously held grudges against the Lannisters, but to call him paranoid seems like nonsense to me, given the information he had to work with and his state of mind about the whole situation

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Catelyn hadn't seen Lysa for only five years. A letter from his wife's sister stating that the queen's family murdered her husband, Hand of the King and foster father to Ned surely seems like enough reason for Ned to worry. He goes to King's Landing to investigate Jon Arryn's death. Ned doesn't have the clearest picture of what's going on, and he obviously hold grudge against the Lannisters, but to call him paranoid seems like nonsense to me, given the information he has to work with and his state of mind about the whole situation

I stand corrected in regards to the amount the sisters hadn't interacted. And for the squires I guess I concede that as well. Hell, the fact Bran nearly died while they were in WF alone would raise alarm bells.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I bet there were some days that Bob would be hard pressed to name his entire small council and what their jobs titles were. I'm sure for the first few weeks or so he had no idea who Baelish was and had to ask someone in private what he was doing there.

[Varysblackfyre321]

33 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I bet there were some days that Bob would be hard pressed to name his entire small council and what their jobs titles were. I'm sure for the first few weeks or so he had no idea who Baelish was and had to ask someone in private what he was doing there.

I cotend he never learned Baelish's name. I imagine he'd simply list off all the members of his small council by the charachter  he'd see them as: Petry, nerd, Stannis, brooding brother, Renly, cheerful brother, Varys, cockles bald guy, Pycelle, old guy, Arryn, daddy-old guy.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I cotend he never learned Baelish's name. I imagine he'd simply list off all the members of his small council by the charachter  he'd see them as: Petry, nerd, Stannis, brooding brother, Renly, cheerful brother, Varys, cockles bald guy, Pycelle, old guy, Arryn, daddy-old guy.

I'd also be willing to bet he frequently forgot which brother was Master of laws and which brother was Master of ships. Then when he finally figured out which was which Jon Arryn added Baelish to the Small Council and that was the last straw for Bob. Then he just gave up trying and stopped going to the majority of the Small Council meetings. There was just to much going on and too many faces and titles for his liking that he'd have to remember.

Also I'm probably wrong but did Bob even notice or comment that Stannis was missing from the Small Council when he got back from Winterfell? Didn't Ned have to remind him?

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'd also be willing to bet he frequently forgot which brother was Master of laws and which brother was Master of ships. Then when he finally figured out which was which Jon Arryn added Baelish to the Small Council and that was the last straw for Bob. Then he just gave up trying and stopped going to the majority of the Small Council meetings. There was just to much going on and too many faces and titles for his liking that he'd have to remember.

Also I'm probably wrong but did Bob even notice or comment that Stannis was missing from the Small Council when he got back from Winterfell? Didn't Ned have to remind him?

Bob: Stannis is the gloomy one right?  

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I think it is obvious that they did. Many are saying Robert held the real power, but considering he was murdered by the Lannisters, as well as his loyal hands, I find this unlikely to be true. I honestly don't know what the peope saying the Lannisters didn't hold too much power are saying. I will grant them that Robert was lazy and so just gave into Cersei's demands, but that is like the definition of too much power! The reason behind a person of family holding too much power doesn't stop them from holding too much power! The Kingsgaurd was already loyal to Cersei and not Robert (except Barristan). There were so many red cloaks in the city, they basically did as they pleased. Cersei tears up Ned Stark's letter FROM THE KING, and everyone just goes along with it. Jaime was named Warden of the East. Both squires were Lannisters! Do we have a single other example of someone having a marriage pack, two squires, and tons of other honors for joining a cause LATE? No, there are none. Zero. I mean, after Robert's death, it shows in that the Lannister's clearly control the government. There is no one, NO ONE claiming loyalty to House Baratheon despite the fact that Joffrey is supposedly a Baratheon.  The Lannisters got almost everything they wanted from Robert, the Handship being their only failure. Another good example is when Robert just agreed to kill Lady. He was too used to just doing whatever Cersei wanted him to do. Stannis and Jon Arryn and Eddard were too afraid to tell Robert what they suspected because they didn't know what he would do. Honors and titles should have been going to Stormlords, Riverlords, Valish lords, and Northerners from the beginning. The Lannisters did nothing to deserve what they got.