Were the lanisters getting too much political influence at court?

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think it is obvious that they did. Many are saying Robert held the real power, but considering he was murdered by the Lannisters, as well as his loyal hands, I find this unlikely to be true. I honestly don't know what the peope saying the Lannisters held too much power are saying.

I think that's very incorrect and for my own part I think that having power is the ability to do things, having influence is the ability to get people to do things. I'll give you one example between a police officer and a man who knows a police officer. The police officer can arrest you, that's power in my opinion. The man who knows a police officer can talk with is friend to get the police officer to arrest you, but he himself can't do that, that's influence in my view. That's how I separate power from influence for this discussion.Thus power is more upfront ability and influence is more backroom ability.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I will grant them that Robert was lazy and so just gave into Cersei's demands, but that is like the definition of too much power! The reason behind a person of family holding too much power doesn't stop them from holding too much power!

Not really. Because Cersei has to go through Robert, she can't forget about Robert and act herself. And there were people who disliked the Lannisters holding high positions. Stannis and Renly both are landed lords with bannermen and means far above the average Westerosi lord, and both of them have been on the small council before Robert got tired of Stannis and sent him away.

Thus Robert giving in to Cersei is her having influence, not power, at court. For Robert could always say no, and then Cersei would be halted in her tracks. We do see this on occasion in the series and it shows who has the power.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The Kingsgaurd was already loyal to Cersei and not Robert (except Barristan). There were so many red cloaks in the city, they basically did as they pleased.

As for the Kingsguard I'm not really sure. I don't doubt that Trant and Blount became Cersei's creatures along with Jamie but what of Moore and Oakheart? Not to mention that we don't know how Greenfield stands. Sure, Greenfield was a Westerman but Trant was a Stormlander so being from the "right" region don't mean that he will automatically support one person or another.

As for Redcloaks I don't recall them doing as they wanted because of numbers. I recall them ambushing Eddard because Robert was a coward.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei tears up Ned Stark's letter FROM THE KING, and everyone just goes along with it. Jaime was named Warden of the East. Both squires were Lannisters! Do we have a single other example of someone having a marriage pack, two squires, and tons of other honors for joining a cause LATE? No, there are none. Zero.

To start with, was Jaiime ever made Warden of the East? For I only recall Robert threatening to do so.

As for similarities, we don't know how many goodies the Martells got rewarded with when they married into House Targaryen.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I mean, after Robert's death, it shows in that the Lannister's clearly control the government. There is no one, NO ONE claiming loyalty to House Baratheon despite the fact that Joffrey is supposedly a Baratheon.  The Lannisters got almost everything they wanted from Robert, the Handship being their only failure. Another good example is when Robert just agreed to kill Lady. He was too used to just doing whatever Cersei wanted him to do. Stannis and Jon Arryn and Eddard were too afraid to tell Robert what they suspected because they didn't know what he would do. Honors and titles should have been going to Stormlords, Riverlords, Valish lords, and Northerners from the beginning. The Lannisters did nothing to deserve what they got.

Sure, after Robert's death when the choice is between Robert's named heir and a guy who has been less than a year or even six months at court and who comes with a seemingly preposterous claim, then they pick Robert's named heir for over a decade and his wife, the queen. Is it a wonder that the claim that Eddard puts forward is laughed at? Its even more unlikely than "Daeron Falseborn" thing thrown more than a century earlier.

As for the Lannister not deserving, that's an outright lie. The Lannisters captured King's Landing for Robert, they killed the royal family so that Robert's hands would be unstained. Furthermore Tywin was with Robert to put down Balon so there's definietly services that's been rendered to Robert and Tywin's loyalty was proven. Was the rewards in excess? Perhaps and even probably, but don't try the hollow "did nothing" card against the Lannisters.

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I think that's very incorrect and for my own part I think that having power is the ability to do things, having influence is the ability to get people to do things. I'll give you one example between a police officer and a man who knows a police officer. The police officer can arrest you, that's power in my opinion. The man who knows a police officer can talk with is friend to get the police officer to arrest you, but he himself can't do that, that's influence in my view. That's how I separate power from influence for this discussion.Thus power is more upfront ability and influence is more backroom ability.

Not really. Because Cersei has to go through Robert, she can't forget about Robert and act herself. And there were people who disliked the Lannisters holding high positions. Stannis and Renly both are landed lords with bannermen and means far above the average Westerosi lord, and both of them have been on the small council before Robert got tired of Stannis and sent him away.

Thus Robert giving in to Cersei is her having influence, not power, at court. For Robert could always say no, and then Cersei would be halted in her tracks. We do see this on occasion in the series and it shows who has the power.

As for the Kingsguard I'm not really sure. I don't doubt that Trant and Blount became Cersei's creatures along with Jamie but what of Moore and Oakheart? Not to mention that we don't know how Greenfield stands. Sure, Greenfield was a Westerman but Trant was a Stormlander so being from the "right" region don't mean that he will automatically support one person or another.

As for Redcloaks I don't recall them doing as they wanted because of numbers. I recall them ambushing Eddard because Robert was a coward.

To start with, was Jaiime ever made Warden of the East? For I only recall Robert threatening to do so.

As for similarities, we don't know how many goodies the Martells got rewarded with when they married into House Targaryen.

Sure, after Robert's death when the choice is between Robert's named heir and a guy who has been less than a year or even six months at court and who comes with a seemingly preposterous claim, then they pick Robert's named heir for over a decade and his wife, the queen. Is it a wonder that the claim that Eddard puts forward is laughed at? Its even more unlikely than "Daeron Falseborn" thing thrown more than a century earlier.

As for the Lannister not deserving, that's an outright lie. The Lannisters captured King's Landing for Robert, they killed the royal family so that Robert's hands would be unstained. Furthermore Tywin was with Robert to put down Balon so there's definietly services that's been rendered to Robert and Tywin's loyalty was proven. Was the rewards in excess? Perhaps and even probably, but don't try the hollow "did nothing" card against the Lannisters.

The thread is about political influence. So you're pretty much agreeing that the Lannisters did indeed have too much political influence.

Trant and Blount at the very least became Cersei's men and may have even started out that way (Cersei had Trant named to the KG in place of Richard Horpe, someone who would have been loyal to Robert. Moore was Jon Arryn's appointment and Oakheart may have been to appease the Reach. Greenfield was probably Tywin or Cersei's choice. Jaime was definitely Cersei and Tywin's at that point but to be fair Robert didn't have too many options there. Plus Joffrey's sworn sword was from the Westerlands too.

The Lannister guards didn't do what they want because of their numbers but they did significantly outnumber any other guard force in the Red Keep. Ned brings only fifty men and judges that enough, Renly mentions a retinue of sworn retainers numbering nowhere near a hundred and Jon Arryn presumably had a guard that all left with Lysa. There are no mentions of Robert having a Baratheon guard with him, only some mentions of a handful of men at arms, most likely a mix from everywhere. So yeah, in terms of manpower the Lannister's had a much stronger presence in the City than any other power, including the King himself.

Jaime was indeed named Warden of the East. There's a scene in a later book where Tywin has the title returned to Robert Arryn.

Even before Ned tried to claim the Throne belonged to Stannis, no one in the room so much as flinched when Cersei tore up Roberts will, that named Ned the protector of the realm.

Except they pretty much didn't. Capturing King's Landing is a moot point since it was going to be captured anyway. And the entire friggin realm followed Robert to put down the Greyjoy's so that doesn't entitle the Lannisters to special treatment anymore than anyone else. Hell Jason Mallister killed one of Balon's sons and kept the Ironborn out of the Riverlands. I don't see him naming people to the Kingsguard, getting his cousins as the Kings squires or people on the Small Council.

[Adam Yozza]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

A woman he's no reason to trust.

Catelyn hasn't seen her since they were girls and Ned probably once if ever. 

His suspicions are primarely motivated by his prejudices against the family in general. 

 

Its his wifes sister and his father figures wife telling him that her husband was murdered. Even if Ned only saw her once, he still has much more reason to trust her over the Lannister's, who got their power through treachery and deceit and murder. So yeah, even if motivated primarily by a distrust of the Lannisters, he is of course going to suspect them if Lysa warns him. As far as Ned's aware Lysa had no reason to lie and the Lannisters have a history of this sort of thing.

[Bernie Mac]

On 26/01/2018 at 6:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

The thread is about political influence. So you're pretty much agreeing that the Lannisters did indeed have too much political influence.

eh? The majority of the influence that is being cited her is the political influence the Queen has. 

Quote

Trant and Blount at the very least became Cersei's men

Why would they not be loyal to the Queen? Or to the acknowledged children of the King?

The perceived thoughts of most people that the King, Queen and heirs are all on the same side. 

Quote

 

and may have even started out that way (Cersei had Trant named to the KG in place of Richard Horpe, someone who would have been loyal to Robert.

Where is it stated that Meryn Trant was not loyal to Robert?

The fact that Richard Horpe is fighting a war to displace the children of Robert does not actually reflect too highly on him. Stannis is indeed right, but he does not have any evidence nor, in the books, has provided anyone with any evidence. Horpe has turned traitor against Robert and his heirs. 

Also where is it claimed that Trant was chosen by Cersei? Horpe was refused so Robert would have had to pick someone else and as Trant, like Horpe, is from the Stormlands it would be natural to assume the pick was by Robert 

Quote

 

Moore was Jon Arryn's appointment and Oakheart may have been to appease the Reach. Greenfield was probably Tywin or Cersei's choice. Jaime was definitely Cersei and Tywin's at that point but to be fair Robert didn't have too many options there.

Robery chose Jaime (and Barristan) before he even thought of marrying Cersei. How is this appointment down to Lannister influence?

Quote

 

 

The Lannister guards didn't do what they want because of their numbers but they did significantly outnumber any other guard force in the Red Keep.

Something that is never said in the books. Not once. 

Quote

 

Ned brings only fifty men and judges that enough, Renly mentions a retinue of sworn retainers numbering nowhere near a hundred and Jon Arryn presumably had a guard that all left with Lysa.

Not sure your point here? Where is it claimed there was more than a hundred Lannister guards in the capital?

At best we are told that the Queen has juts over a hundred knights and Master of guards loyal to here, they are not claimed to be from House Lannister. 

Quote

There are no mentions of Robert having a Baratheon guard with him,

Yeah there is. Robert brings 300 men to Winterfell the majority of them featuring his sigil and coat of arms. 

The visitors poured through the castle gates in a river of gold and silver and polished steel, three hundred strong, a pride of bannermen and knights, of sworn swords and freeriders. Over their heads a dozen golden banners whipped back and forth in the northern wind, emblazoned with the crowned stag of Baratheon

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Hound went to one knee. Ser Gregor's blow cut air, and at last he came to his senses. He dropped his sword and glared at Robert, surrounded by his Kingsguard and a dozen other knights and guardsmen.

The idea that Robert has no guards loyal to him is a huge misconception but those same guards are also going to be loyal to his wife and children just like Ned's guards would show the same loyalty to Cat in Ned's absence. No one is suggesting that House Tully has too much infuence in the North because Ned leaves Cat in charge of the North while he is in the South. 

 

Quote

 

only some mentions of a handful of men at arms, most likely a mix from everywhere. So yeah, in terms of manpower the Lannister's had a much stronger presence in the City than any other power, including the King himself.

There is nothing in the books to back this up. The largest military presence in the Capital is the 2,000 strong Gold Cloaks 

Quote

Jaime was indeed named Warden of the East. There's a scene in a later book where Tywin has the title returned to Robert Arryn.

And what actual influence does this give him? It was an empty title he had for a few months during Robert's 16 year reign. 

Quote

Even before Ned tried to claim the Throne belonged to Stannis, no one in the room so much as flinched when Cersei tore up Roberts will, that named Ned the protector of the realm.

You might want to read the chapter again. People were shocked but Ned's guards drawing their steel and trying to arrest Robert's childen was the bigger shocker. 

Quote

 or people on the Small Council.

Who did Robert appoint to the Small Council?

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think it is obvious that they did. Many are saying Robert held the real power, but considering he was murdered by the Lannisters, as well as his loyal hands, I find this unlikely to be true.

Firstly Jon Arryn was not murdered by the Lannisters, he was murdered by Littlefinger

And I am not sure how this point even makes sense? The reason why Varys has to murder Kevan Lannister, the current Regent, is he wants to end his influence and control. Varys, who has been off the small council for around a year at this point, is not the dominant political force in the realm. So the argument of someone killing Kings or Hands making them have too much political control is simply wrong. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

I honestly don't know what the peope saying the Lannisters didn't hold too much power are saying.

Is there a single person in this thread who has said that?

People have pointed out that the amount of power and influence that Queen Cersei had is not actually uncommon in both Westeros and real life. 

People have also pointed out that while the Lannisters, in-laws of the King and the richest House in the land, certainly have influence they are not dominant. Both the Stormlands, with three, four including the King, members on the Small Council and the Vale, with two, have greater influence than the Westerlands does. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I will grant them that Robert was lazy and so just gave into Cersei's demands, but that is like the definition of too much power!

The power a wife has over her husband? 

And I'd have to disagree with this, look what happens when Robert is dead. Tywin becomes Hand, Kevan Master of Law and Tyrion Master of Coin or when Margaery becomes Queen, Mace, Lords Redwyne, Tarly and Rowan all become members of the Small Council. This is what happens when a House becomes dominant with power, this is hardly the case in Robert's government were the Lannisters/Westerlands influence was firmly behind the Baratheons/Stormlands and Jon Arryns/the Vale.  

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

The reason behind a person of family holding too much power doesn't stop them from holding too much power! The Kingsgaurd was already loyal to Cersei and not Robert (except Barristan).

There is exactly zero evidence for this. In fact we have a POV from Aerys and nothing he says suggests this. 

Jaime is the only Kingsguard member who was against Robert and he was an appointment that was made before Cersei was Queen and an appointment that had House Lannister truly had the power people are suggesting in this thread would no longer be a member. 

Jaime Lannister still being on the Kingsguard is actually evidence that House Lannister did not have the power and influence they would have wanted. 

 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

There were so many red cloaks in the city, they basically did as they pleased.

How many? There is between 10 -20  with Jaime when he confronted Ned outside of the brothel. That is the largest number given in the books. 

Ned glimpsed ringmail over leather, gauntlets and greaves, steel helms with golden lions on the crests. Their cloaks clung to their backs, sodden with rain. He had no time to count, but there were ten at least, a line of them, on foot, blocking the street, with longswords and iron-tipped spears.

You and others in this thread have stated they outnumber every other retinue, including the Kings, and I'm just wondering how you came to this conclusion?

They have less guards than the royal retinue, but I'd imagine, given their status as the richest House in the realm and two of Tywin Lannister's children residing in the capital, that there would likely be a large retinue. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

Cersei tears up Ned Stark's letter FROM THE KING, and everyone just goes along with it.

What do you expect them to do? Joffrey, Robert's son, was the new King and Ned and his men just pulled their swords in the throne room and tried to capture him. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Jaime was named Warden of the East. Both squires were Lannisters! Do we have a single other example of someone having a marriage pack, two squires, and tons of other honors for joining a cause LATE?

That is not why they were given the marriage pact. You have been misinformed on this one i'm afraid. 

Robert was advised to marry Cersei because House Lannister is one of the two most powerful Houses in the realm and to forge a lasting peace Robert and to secure his Kingdom he needed to secure the support of either House Tyrell or House Lannister. 

And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne," The king shook his head. "I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy. Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs.

The marriage was not a price for joining the war late, it was the price for Twyin's continued support. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

No, there are none. Zero.

Again, wrong. I don't even need to look at the history of Westeros for this, we only have to look at the very next royal marriage. The Tyrells joined the Lannisters late and as a reward received four of their Lords onto the Small Council as well as Loras in the Kingsguard. This quite clearly trumps the influence the Lannisters were given.   And they received that instantly the two squires, that is seen as so impressive on this subject. don't materialise for at least a decade into the marriage. 

You could even look at the influence House Hightower had under Viserys I. A Hightower Queen, a Hightower Hand. A Hightower was the second in command of the Gold Cloaks, a Hightower vassal was the Master of Coin. And that is only the surface given we have far more information on the current govervment than we do of Viserys I government. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

I mean, after Robert's death, it shows in that the Lannister's clearly control the government.

No, it shows his wife and children control the government. Why is this so shocking to people? This happens in pretty much every scenario of a King dying, his heir takes over with the support of the government

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

There is no one, NO ONE claiming loyalty to House Baratheon despite the fact that Joffrey is supposedly a Baratheon.

They are all claiming loyal to House Baratheon. Joffrey is not Joffrey Lannister, he is Joffrey Baratheon. The people in the capital pledge their loyalty to the acknowledged son and heir of Robert.

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

 The Lannisters got almost everything they wanted from Robert, the Handship being their only failure.

eh? There is not a single Westerland person sitting on the Small Council. Jaime still sits on the Kingsguard. No new lands or titles came Tywin's way. 

I'm not sure how you can say that Tywin got everything he wanted when we know that one of the events he was desperate to happem, Jaime's release never happened. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

Another good example is when Robert just agreed to kill Lady. He was too used to just doing whatever Cersei wanted him to do.

In fairness Lady, despite the name, is a dangerous wild animal. I'd hope that is House Lannister brought two pet Lions to the capital and one attacked someone that Robert would be forced to make a similar decision. 

It is kind of bizarre that Ned, who was in favour of having these 'monsters' killed at the beginning of the book, even allowed them to come to live in Kings Landing, a highly populated city. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

Stannis and Jon Arryn and Eddard were too afraid to tell Robert what they suspected because they didn't know what he would do.

No, both Ned and Jon Arryn were searching for more evidence. Ned, before the accident, had the evidence he needed and was going to tell him only for him to want to spare Robert's feelings on his deathbed. 

Stannis was afraid that his bother would not believe him. Not that he was afraid of what his brother would do. 

"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful," said Stannis. "From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved."

Making accusations like this only works if you have evidence or are 100 percent sure. Ned was 100% sure, Jon Arryn was still investigating and Stannis had no real evidence just a hunch. 

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honors and titles should have been going to Stormlords, Riverlords, Valish lords, and Northerners from the beginning.

They, well the Stormlands, Valle and North were. The Riverlands, as far as we know, seem to have been left out.

On 26/01/2018 at 10:50 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The Lannisters did nothing to deserve what they got.

Sure they did. They secured Robert's win that got him the Crown by capturing and killing Aerys and two of his heirs, they secured his place on the Crown by supporting him and they allowed him the freedom to do as he pleased as they bankrolled his reign. 

They deserved what they received. 

 

On 26/01/2018 at 6:43 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I cotend he never learned Baelish's name. I imagine he'd simply list off all the members of his small council by the charachter  he'd see them as: Petry, nerd, Stannis, brooding brother, Renly, cheerful brother, Varys, cockles bald guy, Pycelle, old guy, Arryn, daddy-old guy.

I know this is tongue in cheek but I kind of disagree with the sentiment of this. 

Robert was hands on enough to not only know who Janos Slynt was but that he was pretty shady and that anyone who replaced him would likely be equally be shady. 

It should also be pointed out that Ned and Jaime were not the only options to become Hand, Littlefinger seems to have been an options as well. 

"We ought to count ourselves fortunate," the man said. "The king might as easily have named one of his brothers, or even Littlefinger, gods help us. Give me honorable enemies rather than ambitious ones, and I'll sleep more easily by night."

Book Littlefinger is meant to be everyone's friend, the TV show has kind of altered people's perception of the character who is, outwardly less devious in the books. I like Aiden Gillen's performance on the show but he comes across as an openly shady bastard whereas book Littlefinger is less so, it is only through our insider knowledge of what he does to the Starks and Lannisters, Arryns and Baratheons that we see what this genial character really is. 

[Wolf's Bane]

They married into the winning side of a rebellion.  Robert  was poor at money management and borrowed money from Tywin.  Jaime and Cersei were romancing behind Robert's back.  The heirs to the throne are Lannisters.  Many ranking officials and aids are Lannister people.  I'm referring to Lancel, Illyn, Pycelle, and Jaime.  They had the crown locked in all but name.  It's more than political.  It's actual power they had.

[Varysblackfyre321]

48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

In fairness Lady, despite the name, is a dangerous wild animal. I'd hope that is House Lannister brought two pet Lions to the capital and one attacked someone that Robert would be forced to make a similar decision. 

It is kind of bizarre that Ned, who was in favour of having these 'monsters' killed at the beginning of the book, even allowed them to come to live in Kings Landing, a highly populated city. 

And one direwolf had already assaulted the crown prince. 

Ned is kinda overreacting there. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

know this is tongue in cheek but I kind of disagree with the sentiment of this. 

Robert was hands on enough to not only know who Janos Slynt was but that he was pretty shady and that anyone who replaced him would likely be equally be shady. 

It should also be pointed out that Ned and Jaime were not the only options to become Hand, Littlefinger seems to have been an options as well. 

Meh, sorry it's easy to make fun of Robert  as a dumb jock. 

I don't think He's an idiot he's just really and I do mean really immature.

[Lion of the West]

On 2018-01-26 at 7:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

The thread is about political influence. So you're pretty much agreeing that the Lannisters did indeed have too much political influence.

Yet even so we should differentiate between influence and power. Because while the Lannisters have influence its dependent on a Baratheon king taking their side for it to be effective.

On 2018-01-26 at 7:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Trant and Blount at the very least became Cersei's men and may have even started out that way (Cersei had Trant named to the KG in place of Richard Horpe, someone who would have been loyal to Robert. Moore was Jon Arryn's appointment and Oakheart may have been to appease the Reach. Greenfield was probably Tywin or Cersei's choice. Jaime was definitely Cersei and Tywin's at that point but to be fair Robert didn't have too many options there. Plus Joffrey's sworn sword was from the Westerlands too.

To start with neither Cersei nor Tywin ever named anyone to the Kingsguard. Robert named them and if he caved in to Cersei's wants and demands, it was still the king who made the appointments. So Cersei whined enough for Robert to make Trant his choice.

The way I see the appointments its about like this.

Barristan - obvious choice as perhaps the most prestigeous knight available to the Kingsguard

Jaime - probably because Cersei wanted him to remain and Robert didn't have any initial dislike for Jaime

Trant - probably picked as a representative from the Stormlands, and Cersei whined so that Robert picked someone she could turn to her own side

Blount - I've always been wondering about this and either Borous Blount was a respected knight at the time of Robert's Rebellion and he has since seriously declined with no more actual need to prove himself after his appointment, or the Crownlands really took a beating during the Rebellion and Robert couldn't find anyone else even after searching with dogs and torch all day and night. And its probably as part of Robert's reconciliation that a knight from the Crownlands was picked from the start.

Oakheart - Another reconciliation move and I think the choice was pretty good.

Moore - A representative for the Vale and as someone said; the perfect Kingsguard with no other loyalty or desire than his duty.

Greenfield - Probably to give the Westerlands someone and presumably Greenfield was an ok choice has he's evidently not a good person but not a coward either.and seems to take his vows more serious than Trant and Blount and in a way which is desired for the Kingsguard.

On 2018-01-26 at 7:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

The Lannister guards didn't do what they want because of their numbers but they did significantly outnumber any other guard force in the Red Keep. Ned brings only fifty men and judges that enough, Renly mentions a retinue of sworn retainers numbering nowhere near a hundred and Jon Arryn presumably had a guard that all left with Lysa. There are no mentions of Robert having a Baratheon guard with him, only some mentions of a handful of men at arms, most likely a mix from everywhere. So yeah, in terms of manpower the Lannister's had a much stronger presence in the City than any other power, including the King himself.

That's wrong. There are references to Baratheon men-at-arms when Robert comes to Winterfell. The simple reason that we don't hear about them is that Robert don't act and so they don't get any orders to do one thing or another. Hence, their passive state in the novels. And I get the impression that they were more than a handful. And to this you should count the Goldcloaks. For while Slynt ultimately betrays Eddard, it takes gold for it to happen and I see no reason to think that Slynt would be more loyal to Cersei than Robert because he takes gold to support Cersei.

On 2018-01-26 at 7:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Jaime was indeed named Warden of the East. There's a scene in a later book where Tywin has the title returned to Robert Arryn.

I see. Thank you for this info.

On 2018-01-26 at 7:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Even before Ned tried to claim the Throne belonged to Stannis, no one in the room so much as flinched when Cersei tore up Roberts will, that named Ned the protector of the realm.

I recall Barristan flincing. And like I said. Cersei has been queen for a long time and Eddard is a new face at court who knows no one who stayed around to back him up. And do you recall what Eddard thought about Barristan? He thinks that Barristan will not easily abandon the boy he thinks to be his king. The same goes for the rest of them I wager. But I think that you have a point in that they didn't respect Robert's memory so much that they would have sided with Eddard. The way I see it however is that only after Robert's death did Cersei's influence become power as the choice was between the queen since over a decade and an outnumbered Lord Stark who had been less than a year in King's Landing and in office. But yeah, not very loyally done.

On 2018-01-26 at 7:11 PM, Adam Yozza said:

Except they pretty much didn't. Capturing King's Landing is a moot point since it was going to be captured anyway. And the entire friggin realm followed Robert to put down the Greyjoy's so that doesn't entitle the Lannisters to special treatment anymore than anyone else. Hell Jason Mallister killed one of Balon's sons and kept the Ironborn out of the Riverlands. I don't see him naming people to the Kingsguard, getting his cousins as the Kings squires or people on the Small Council.

Its not a moot point. If you did something, you did it, regardless if someone else could have done it at a later time instead. So while you may not like it, the fact is that the Lannisters could well have gotten rewards out of proportion, but they certainly didn't get it for nothing.

After this comes the fact that the Mallisters are not a Great House. They don't hold nearly the kind of prestige and clout than a Great House would have done. But a wife's family getting in good with the husband's demense isn't strange. There's are Westerlings with Robb after his marriage just like there Freys before, and the Blackfish is made the Knight of the Bloody Gate when Lysa is Lady Arryn, there were many Reynes at Casterly Rock when Elyn Reyne was married to the Lannister heir.

And Cersei never named anyone to the Kingsguard and she never put anyone on the small council, while Robert was alive. She did get two cousins as squires to Robert though.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 1/28/2018 at 11:52 AM, Bernie Mac said:

 

Again, wrong. I don't even need to look at the history of Westeros for this, we only have to look at the very next royal marriage. The Tyrells joined the Lannisters late and as a reward received four of their Lords onto the Small Council as well as Loras in the Kingsguard. This quite clearly trumps the influence the Lannisters were given.   And they received that instantly the two squires, that is seen as so impressive on this subject. don't materialise for at least a decade into the marriage. 

You could even look at the influence House Hightower had under Viserys I. A Hightower Queen, a Hightower Hand. A Hightower was the second in command of the Gold Cloaks, a Hightower vassal was the Master of Coin. And that is only the surface given we have far more information on the current govervment than we do of Viserys I government. 

.....Really? You think those situations are the same? House Lannister (because it was House Lannister and everyone knows it, don't pretend like anyone thinks of Joffrey as a Baratheon....oh brother your long rant about that) was about to fight Stannis in King's Landing. Possible outcomes :

Without Tyrell alliance : The city is taken. Stannis Baratheon becomes King. 

With Tyrell alliance : The Lannister/Tyrells win. Joffrey keeps being King. 

Now, Robert's Rebellion :

Without Lannisters sacking King's Landing : Eddard Stark takes King's Landing. Presumbly Jaime Lannister still kills the Pyromancers and Aerys (there is no cause to believe he would act differently). A lot of raping and looting doesn't take place because the taking of the city is ordered by Eddard and not Tywin. Elia Martell and her children are not murdered admittedly. Robert has a tough choice to make, but I think there are options here. 

With Lannisters sacking King's Landing : King's Landing falls, the children are murdered, a whole lot of raping and looting and murder happens. 

These are not the same situations. The Lannisters came late to Robert's cause. The Tyrells saved the Lannister's butts. My point is even more so the lack of influence Northern, Riverland, or Valish lords hold after the successful rebellion. I find it quite strange that after Robert's death, three areas of Westeros clearly excluded from power are the ONES THAT ACTUALLY WON HIS WAR. The Lannisters held way too much power considering how little they actually did to win the war. 

Thank you for using the Hightowers as an example. You realize THEY HELD TOO MUCH POWER RIGHT. It is literally written in the actual text that they held too much power. They started the Dance of Dragons that literally killed all the Targaryen dragons. Again, even more directly, the King had officially announced that his heir was Rhaenerya Targaryen, and then the Hightowers completely ignored this and caused a huge war. Everyone knows during the War of 5 Kings that supporting Joffrey, is supporting a Lannister, not a Baratheon King. Multiple direct PoV perspectives show that no one thinks of him as a Baratheon. People don't refer to him that way, don't think of him that way, and I think the vast majority of those in power aren't even really sure he is a Baratheon. Everyone knows by backing Joffrey, you are backing Lannisters, and they do it. Granted given one less sorceress, Renly would have won the war, but whatever, the point is that Robert gave them too much power. Eddard was right. House Stark or House Tully or House Arryn should have been far more involved in the governing of the realm since they took the throne. Or some competent houses under them but loyal to Robert's cause. The fact that Renly flees the city specifically because he knows that Cersei will murder him says it all. Why the hell does the brother of the King think the only for him to survive is to run? Because the Lannisters hold way way too much power. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 1/24/2018 at 5:59 PM, Bernie Mac said:

And can I ask where it is said that there is a suspiciously large amount of House Lannister guards in the capital? We are told

The queen has a dozen knights and a hundred men-at-arms who will do whatever she commands … enough to overwhelm what remains of my own household guard. And for all I know, her brother Jaime may be riding for King's Landing even as we speak, with a Lannister host at his back."

But there is no indication that these men who are loyal to Cersei are Lannisters. She is the Queen, considerably charming when she wants to be and would have had many years to build up her own alliances among the Kings subjects. 

Actually we do have one, albeit later in the series. Tyrion sends Vylarr and his men to deliver terms and try to free Jaime. They are approximately 100 men-at-arms and Tyrion specifically notes it will make his sister feel vulnerable. This is when she turns to sellswords to augment her powerbase.

Quote

Not a reliance. Robert borrowed largely from everyone, the Lannisters, the Tyrells, the Faith, the Iron Bank...

And this is hardly unusual, it was said that Aegon V owed his crown to the Lannister gold, Johanna Lannister borrowed huge amounts of gold to the Crown in the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons while Tywin paid of the Crown's debt to Bravvos to stop Aerys from going to war. 

The Westerlands is the richest region in the realm, Robert borrowing from them is doing nothing that his predessors  have done in the past. 

Might be relatively common but I would call it a reliance. He owes the Lannisters at least 3x more than the next largest known debt, and the remaining 2 million or so is split between at least 4 groups (Tyrells, Tyroshi cartels, Iron Bank).

Quote

Cersei, the Queen, his wife, has influence. Why would she not? Why would he want his wife and children routed out by his brothers. 

Robert, like most Kings, would want his heirs secure and that is why men like Henry VIII granted first the father and brother(s) of both the Boelyn's and Seymour's great influence, power and titles in a bid to secure his legacy. The only reason it looks bad to us is because we the reader know the truth. The reality for Robert and the royal retainers is that Cersei and Robert's children should be owed their fealty. 

Well honestly it seems like he loathes Cersei and Joff, so that would be one reason. Your reasoning re heirs is solid though, especially since Tommen and Myrcella are normal, good children. The Lannister influence at court is undue, but it's because Cersei is literally the last person at court I would want influencing government of any type.