Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Black Crow]

Also worth noting that while Bran tastes the blood of that ancient sacrifice to the Winterfell tree, it was burned bones and ashes at Whitetree. Jaqen H'gar clearly considered there was a significance to the mouth at Harrenhal, but actual red blood wasn't involved, at least in the sense of feeding the tree.

My own feeling is that the blood sacrifice was a one-off needed to open its eyes; but I've no evidence one way or the other.

[Brad Stark]

If the villagers living in Whitetree were sacrificed, who sacrificed them and why?

I suspect Craster, his mother was from Whitetree, and is the only connection we have.  He is 'a sheep' and working for someone else, likely the White Walkers now.  But would the WWs want him to sacrifice to the weirwood?  Were they even around when the villagers were killed?  Could this sacrifice have been part of what brought the WWs back?  Is his sacrifice of his sons related to this sacrifice?

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Both trees at Winterfell and Whitetree are old, but I read this as Winterfell's being much older and Whitetree's being bigger have been better fed recently.  As mentioned,  people were a little freaked out by Whitetree, whose villagers disappeared with human bones sacrificed to the tree.  Very different from how people feel about the Winterfell tree.  Winterfell's tree may feed off humans too, such as a Ned executing the deserter at the start, but it eats much less and less often.

I agree that the size of the heart tree at Whitetree is a consequence of it being "well-fed," rather than age; however, I think this is a long-standing state of affairs (in other words, I think the tree has been sacrificed to regularly for thousands of years), perhaps with a recent surge in sacrifices out of desperation.

I would additionally suggest that Whitetree's weirwood being well-fed is a tradition that began with the Pact (or the immediate aftermath of the Long Night), and that keeping the sacrifices flowing is the price they had to pay for living in lands that rightfully belong to the CotF.

Furthermore, if what Craster is doing is not anomalous, but a resurrection of old traditions, then I suspect that the white walkers of antiquity did not have the Lands of Always Winter as their point of origin, but instead were created from tributes collected in the Haunted Forest--from places like Whitetree, where it was important to be "right with the gods," as Craster puts it.

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If the villagers living in Whitetree were sacrificed, who sacrificed them and why?

Well in the first place Whitetree was just another abandoned village like all the other abandoned farms and villages. There was nothing unique about the absence of any inhabitants and no reason to suppose they hadn't gone into the Frostfangs with everybody else.

There's no reason to suppose that they were sacrificed. While the set-up certainly suggests a religious or quasi-religious community we don't know that the bones in the tree were a sacrifice or were simply placed there as the culmination of a traditional burial custom. In our mediaeval period it was thought desireable to bury the dead as close to the altar as possible, as being a holy place and from where they would rise all the sooner on Judgement Day.

Placing the dead, or at least their ashes, in the mouth of a weirwood is directly analogous.

[LynnS]

My impression is that they were sacrificing sheep and burning their dead within the mouth of the tree itself.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon II

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone.

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

I rather doubt that the cremation actually took place within the tree, unless there's a chimney the fire will never draw hot enough. That's not, however to prevent the tree being scorched by hot ashes being shovelled in. Either way two skulls and some ashes do not a massacre make

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

"far away" was in reference to the Trident, not King' Landing.   If they were at the battle of the Trident,  Rhaegar beats Robert.

From AGOT, we have:

Quote

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

So it was not about the Trident.  

Nor do I think three more men at the Trident would have made any significant difference for the Targaryen cause, any more than they would have in the Sack.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

From AGOT, we have:

So it was not about the Trident.  

Nor do I think three more men at the Trident would have made any significant difference for the Targaryen cause, any more than they would have in the Sack.

 

I am really late to the party ( Life happens) but i agree with this...One of those things brought up so many times an ignored just as many.

I was suppose to jump in a few post ago with this segue.Its  a statement by Rhaegar that flies under the radar and i think its very important.

Rhaegar himself tells us a lot my opnion.There is a deeper message communicated by characters in ths story  and i do appreciate Hersey more and more;these threads delve beyond the superficial. I have brought it up before and a few got where i was coming from regarding what i believe is an oddity.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

 

 

The way he said this irked me .As I had pointed out this dude acted very detached having supposedly kidnapped or ran off with his cousin's bethrothed.But i don't think i stressed in totality how his entire statement is off considering what he might have done.Then it hit me from a different angle.

 

Why? Why isn't Robert taken seriously from the get?If i were Rhaegar, I would be more worried about him, especially if i was the one who kidnapped or ran off with his girl.If i were Aerys i would be more worried about him seeing as my son ran off/kidnapped with his bethrothed.

 

If Rhaegar kidnapped or ran of with Lyanna he slighted and betrayed his cousin right? We all can agree on that i think.

 

His behavior and the use of the intimate "cousin" when referring to Robert is that of a man that commited no slight against him...None.

 

There is more affection toward Robert by referring to him as cousin than his own father whom he styles " his royal sire?"

 

I am buying more and more that Rhaegar conspired to have his father killed.And he sacrificed the honor of some white cloaks to get it done. I just don't think he saw the blindside,that he would die that day on thr Trident.

 

 

[Brad Stark]

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

 

I still contend this is not a real conversation,  just Ned imagining one.

[Brad Stark]

36 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

I am really late to the party ( Life happens) but i agree with this...One of those things brought up so many times an ignored just as many.

I was suppose to jump in a few post ago with this segue.Its  a statement by Rhaegar that flies under the radar and i think its very important.

Rhaegar himself tells us a lot my opnion.There is a deeper message communicated by characters in ths story  and i do appreciate Hersey more and more;these threads delve beyond the superficial. I have brought it up before and a few got where i was coming from regarding what i believe is an oddity.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

 

The way he said this irked me .As I had pointed out this dude acted very detached having supposedly kidnapped or ran off with his cousin's bethrothed.But i don't think i stressed in totality how his entire statement is off considering what he might have done.Then it hit me from a different angle.

 

Why? Why isn't Robert taken seriously from the get?If i were Rhaegar, I would be more worried about him, especially if i was the one who kidnapped or ran off with his girl.If i were Aerys i would be more worried about him seeing as my son ran off/kidnapped with his bethrothed.

 

If Rhaegar kidnapped or ran of with Lyanna he slighted and betrayed his cousin right? We all can agree on that i think.

 

His behavior and the use of the intimate "cousin" when referring to Robert is that of a man that commited no slight against him...None.

 

There is more affection toward Robert by referring to him as cousin than his own father whom he styles " his royal sire?"

 

I am buying more and more that Rhaegar conspired to have his father killed.And he sacrificed the honor of some white cloaks to get it done. I just don't think he saw the blindside,that he would die that day on the Trident.

Rhaegar expected to beat Robert and underestimated him.  He might see Robert as a man in the right and sympathize with him.  Or he might see him as a hot head who doesn't really understand the situation.   Rhaegar is either arrogant enough not to think Robert is a threat - or he sees his father, the situation with Lyanna, Tywin and other problems as bigger threats.

If Rhaegar had a conspiracy,  Gerold Dayne, Hightower and Oswell were his most trusted friends and would have known.  The conversation I posted above would not make sense.  Ned is mearly reflecting on a conversation they might have had.

Note the conversation that doesn't happen.  The Kingsguard do not ask Ned what he wants or why he is there.  Everything is from Ned's perspective.

[LynnS]

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

I always thought that Rhaegar's confidence about winning at the Trident and returning had to KL had do with an expectation that reinforcements were coming and this is why the 3 KG are waiting at the Prince's Pass (to lead the reinforcements).  So in otherwords, if the KG had been there, the outcome would have been different and Aerys would still sit the throne.

But Robert's forces were too strong and Ned was too fast:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 

[wolfmaid7]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Rhaegar expected to beat Robert and underestimated him.  He might see Robert as a man in the right and sympathize with him.  Or he might see him as a hot head who doesn't really understand the situation.   Rhaegar is either arrogant enough not to think Robert is a threat - or he sees his father, the situation with Lyanna, Tywin and other problems as bigger threats.

If Rhaegar had a conspiracy,  Gerold Dayne, Hightower and Oswell were his most trusted friends and would have known.  The conversation I posted above would not make sense.  Ned is mearly reflecting on a conversation they might have had.

Note the conversation that doesn't happen.  The Kingsguard do not ask Ned what he wants or why he is there.  Everything is from Ned's perspective.

I see you still miss the point at all......If you ran off with or kidnapped your cousin's girl,would you still reference him with such intimacy? At that point he would be seen as a rival. Rhaegar isn't acting as if Robert is a rival. I also don't think its a coincidence the writer shows a tonal difference in how Rhaegar reffered to his father vs someone who is suppose to be his rival.

The under tone to me seems a bit clear,Rhaegar's problem is his "royal sire" and not "his cousin" 

Rhaegar doesn't strike me as arrogant.There's no crystal ball that could have ever told either of them they would meet on the Trident. Any thing besides each other could have felled them.

Also,if as you say there is a situation to think about with Lyanna for Rhaegar then Robert is a problem.He would always be a problem.This makes no sense.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I always thought that Rhaegar's confidence about winning at the Trident and returning had to KL had do with an expectation that reinforcements were coming and this is why the 3 KG are waiting at the Prince's Pass (to lead the reinforcements).  So in otherwords, if the KG had been there, the outcome would have been different and Aerys would still sit the throne.

But Robert's forces were too strong and Ned was too fast:

 

I will write more on this later LynnS

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

I am really late to the party ( Life happens) but i agree with this...One of those things brought up so many times an ignored just as many.

I was suppose to jump in a few post ago with this segue.Its  a statement by Rhaegar that flies under the radar and i think its very important.

Rhaegar himself tells us a lot my opnion.There is a deeper message communicated by characters in ths story  and i do appreciate Hersey more and more;these threads delve beyond the superficial. I have brought it up before and a few got where i was coming from regarding what i believe is an oddity.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard."

 

 

The way he said this irked me .As I had pointed out this dude acted very detached having supposedly kidnapped or ran off with his cousin's bethrothed.But i don't think i stressed in totality how his entire statement is off considering what he might have done.Then it hit me from a different angle.

 

Why? Why isn't Robert taken seriously from the get?If i were Rhaegar, I would be more worried about him, especially if i was the one who kidnapped or ran off with his girl.If i were Aerys i would be more worried about him seeing as my son ran off/kidnapped with his bethrothed.

 

If Rhaegar kidnapped or ran of with Lyanna he slighted and betrayed his cousin right? We all can agree on that i think.

 

His behavior and the use of the intimate "cousin" when referring to Robert is that of a man that commited no slight against him...None.

 

There is more affection toward Robert by referring to him as cousin than his own father whom he styles " his royal sire?"

 

I am buying more and more that Rhaegar conspired to have his father killed.And he sacrificed the honor of some white cloaks to get it done. I just don't think he saw the blindside,that he would die that day on thr Trident.

 

 

 

Hi Wolfmaid! Glad to see you chime in on this. I quite agree with your analysis. I've always felt that Rhaegar's reactions and words were of someone that thought he was going to the Trident to settle a misunderstanding. Would you wear your most decorative armor into battle?

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I always thought that Rhaegar's confidence about winning at the Trident and returning had to KL had do with an expectation that reinforcements were coming and this is why the 3 KG are waiting at the Prince's Pass (to lead the reinforcements).  So in otherwords, if the KG had been there, the outcome would have been different and Aerys would still sit the throne.

But Robert's forces were too strong and Ned was too fast:

 

 

I think you're onto something here. If the three Kingsguard are paralleled by Dany's blood riders, they may have been sent in three directions to gather reinforcements, but Robert's forces were too strong and Ned's too fast.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think you're onto something here. If the three Kingsguard are paralleled by Dany's blood riders, they may have been sent in three directions to gather reinforcements, but Robert's forces were too strong and Ned's too fast.

Hi Feather!  Well, Ned mentions the Trident, Kings Landing and Storms End.  He expected to see them there.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I see you still miss the point at all......If you ran off with or kidnapped your cousin's girl,would you still reference him with such intimacy? At that point he would be seen as a rival. Rhaegar isn't acting as if Robert is a rival. I also don't think its a coincidence the writer shows a tonal difference in how Rhaegar reffered to his father vs someone who is suppose to be his rival.

The under tone to me seems a bit clear,Rhaegar's problem is his "royal sire" and not "his cousin" 

But this is the point, and unfortunately we have very little in the text to tell us what Rhaegar's thinking.   From what we have, Robert's attitude toward Rhaegar is as strong as hatred can get, but the reverse certainly isn't true.  Rhaegar's attitude towards Robert seems either affectionate or dismissive. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But this is the point, and unfortunately we have very little in the text to tell us what Rhaegar's thinking.   From what we have, Robert's attitude toward Rhaegar is as strong as hatred can get, but the reverse certainly isn't true.  Rhaegar's attitude seems either affectionate or dismissive. 

Towards Robert or Jaime?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hi Feather!  Well, Ned mentions the Trident, Kings Landing and Storms End.  He expected to see them there.

Hi Lynn! I was wondering if Aerys sent the three Kingsguards out in separate directions much like Dany sent out her three blood riders when in the Red Waste. I don't take Ned's fever dream to heart. I think even he realized it wasn't the same as in life since we read about him comparing while awake.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Hi Lynn! I was wondering if Aerys sent the three Kingsguards out in separate directions much like Dany sent out her three blood riders when in the Red Waste. I don't take Ned's fever dream to heart. I think even he realized it wasn't the same as in life since we read about him comparing while awake.

It makes more sense to me that the KG were doing something other than sitting around in the middle of nowhere.  Especially if Rhaegar thought he was going to prevail at the Trident.  I've come to think of the ToJ rendezvous as an arranged time and place to bring the war to an end.

Ned has bitter memories because he has to kill men he considers honorable especially Arthur Dayne and they will not bend the knee; but will keep their vows to the death.   So we don't have Ned's army invading Dorne; but combat loosely based on a trial by seven; the only honorable alternative and it costs Ned the lives of his closest friends.  

[Brad Stark]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Towards Robert or Jaime?

Robert

[LynnS]

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard

Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

I'm just not seeing how Rhaegar is speaking affectionately about Robert.  Especially if he is speaking in iron tones.  Rhaegar seems to show Jaime some affection when he places a hand on his should and promises to return.  Aerys fears Tywin perhaps because he is closer to KL than Robert perhaps and fears treachery.  Rhaegar is anticipating a battle not a parley.