Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

I'm just not seeing how Rhaegar is speaking affectionately about Robert.  Especially if he is speaking in iron tones.  Rhaegar seems to show Jaime some affection when he places a hand on his should and promises to return.  Aerys fears Tywin perhaps because he is closer to KL than Robert perhaps and fears treachery.  Rhaegar is anticipating a battle not a parley.

IMO Rhaegar knows Robert is at the Trident to do battle, but I suspect Rhaegar went dressed in his decorative armor to see if he could negotiate a peace. The call for a council indicates he means to implement changes where differences can be aired and outcomes negotiated.

[JNR]

13 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I still contend this is not a real conversation,  just Ned imagining one.

In a sense.  Ned is dreaming, and it happened more than a decade before, and the dream contains surrealistic elements.  So I agree it's, technically, Ned imagining a conversation.

But we know, for sure, that these three KG played no role at the very places Ned cites, where they should have been: (1) the Trident, (2) the Sack, (3) Viserys fleeing, and (4) Storm's End. 

We know Ned would have wondered about that.  Just as others, such as Robert, must have.

We can very reasonably guess he asked them about that.

We also know that Hightower, at a bare minimum, was a Targ loyalist to the bone.  For instance, in instructing Jaime not to judge Aerys when he burned Rickard Stark alive.

And finally, GRRM was asked point blank in the Shaw interview about this passage.  And he said it was about orders Rhaegar gave the KG, that forced them to obey whether they liked it or not... as opposed to "Ned's dream was bullshit, so it's a moot point."

So I think the dialogue is basically accurate.  

Ned did wonder where the hell the KG had been, especially since he believed them to be Targaryen loyalists and hence, they should have played a major role far earlier.  He did ask them about that.  They did give the answers we get, if not in that exact language.

However, I also believe there was more dialogue we never got in the dream.  For instance.... the idea that Ned would have left out his sister Lyanna is not plausible to me.  But in the dream, he never does mention her.

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, JNR said:

However, I also believe there was more dialogue we never got in the dream.  For instance.... the idea that Ned would have left out his sister Lyanna is not plausible to me.  But in the dream, he never does mention her.

Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense if he didn't know where she was given the rumors of her kidnapping or the letter that Catelyn refers to. There are strange memory gaps.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

These memories seem out of order.  He remembers what happens in Lyanna's last moments when she dies clutching his hand and yet Howland is there to take his hand from hers when she dies.  Then he remembers nothing.  They didn't find him holding her body first, but afterwards when they came to take the body.  Howland must have been present when she died or we won't get the rest of Meera's story.

Ned recognizes that there are memory lapses when he says his memory has faded over time.

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, JNR said:

 

So it was not about the Trident.  

Nor do I think three more men at the Trident would have made any significant difference for the Targaryen cause, any more than they would have in the Sack.

Ah, well they were "no ordinary men"

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

There is more affection toward Robert by referring to him as cousin than his own father whom he styles " his royal sire?"

Afraid not, "cousin" is an entirely conventional way for someone of Royal blood to refer to or address someone else of Royal blood whether actually related or not.

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

...I've always felt that Rhaegar's reactions and words were of someone that thought he was going to the Trident to settle a misunderstanding. Would you wear your most decorative armor into battle?

 

In reverse, yes, Parquin tells how he complimented his commanding officer on his gorgeous appearance on the morning of a battle, to which he responded that one cannot be too well dressed in the presence of the enemy. Mind you they were French. We British have always regarded uniform regulations as negotiable.

As to Rhaegar, I don't think it was a little matter of settling a misunderstanding. Rhaegar had his own motives and agenda and being dragged back [kicking and screaming?] to deal with Robert was a tedious distraction.

[wolfmaid7]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But this is the point, and unfortunately we have very little in the text to tell us what Rhaegar's thinking.   From what we have, Robert's attitude toward Rhaegar is as strong as hatred can get, but the reverse certainly isn't true.  Rhaegar's attitude towards Robert seems either affectionate or dismissive. 

Forget about what Robert's feelings for Rhaegar would become.That isn't important.

We also don't need to know what Rhaegar is thinking here.We only need observe what he said and didn't say;particularly how.

We will never get in Rhaegar's head at this point.He will never have a POV, but Jamie's do give us a lot.

Looking at Rhaegar's statement and tone; its not of a man who just kidnapped or ran off with his cousin's girl.Your right it is dismissive and affectionate.

These characterization of Rhaegar toward Robert is the problem.He is completely detached.

Be it he ran off with her or kidnapped her his behavior is contrary to what he is claimed to have done.

Unless he is detached because he has no clue about this at all.

I daresay, this has more to do with Aerys and having him in a position without "loyal"men around.

Darry and Selmy may just "obeyed"

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Hi Wolfmaid! Glad to see you chime in on this. I quite agree with your analysis. I've always felt that Rhaegar's reactions and words were of someone that thought he was going to the Trident to settle a misunderstanding. Would you wear your most decorative armor into battle?

 

 

I think you're onto something here. If the three Kingsguard are paralleled by Dany's blood riders, they may have been sent in three directions to gather reinforcements, but Robert's forces were too strong and Ned's too fast.

Could be, but I am not sure he knew what he was walking into at the Trident.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

In a sense.  Ned is dreaming, and it happened more than a decade before, and the dream contains surrealistic elements.  So I agree it's, technically, Ned imagining a conversation.

But we know, for sure, that these three KG played no role at the very places Ned cites, where they should have been: (1) the Trident, (2) the Sack, (3) Viserys fleeing, and (4) Storm's End. 

We know Ned would have wondered about that.  Just as others, such as Robert, must have.

We can very reasonably guess he asked them about that.

We also know that Hightower, at a bare minimum, was a Targ loyalist to the bone.  For instance, in instructing Jaime not to judge Aerys when he burned Rickard Stark alive.

And finally, GRRM was asked point blank in the Shaw interview about this passage.  And he said it was about orders Rhaegar gave the KG, that forced them to obey whether they liked it or not... as opposed to "Ned's dream was bullshit, so it's a moot point."

So I think the dialogue is basically accurate.  

Ned did wonder where the hell the KG had been, especially since he believed them to be Targaryen loyalists and hence, they should have played a major role far earlier.  He did ask them about that.  They did give the answers we get, if not in that exact language.

However, I also believe there was more dialogue we never got in the dream.  For instance.... the idea that Ned would have left out his sister Lyanna is not plausible to me.  But in the dream, he never does mention her.

It is literally a conversation Ned imagined, either way.  But my point is it is Ned might be imagining a conversation that never took place.  He fought and killed 3 men he highly respected and thinking about what they might have said if he talked to them first.

[Brad Stark]

The passage of Rhaear's last talk to Jamie can be interpreted different ways.   I can imagine an arrogant Rhaegar saying "hold my beer" while I kill Robert, or a sarcastic and milly annoyed Rhaegar saying to take care of his mentally ill father while he calms down his hotheaded cousin.   Other interpretation is possible, but he is clearly concerned with other things, including his plans for after battle.  It clearly shows he didn't 'fly off the handle' with the same anger, rage and impulsiveness as Brandon and Robert.  He isn't knowing riding to his death either. 

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

In a sense.  Ned is dreaming, and it happened more than a decade before, and the dream contains surrealistic elements.  So I agree it's, technically, Ned imagining a conversation.

But we know, for sure, that these three KG played no role at the very places Ned cites, where they should have been: (1) the Trident, (2) the Sack, (3) Viserys fleeing, and (4) Storm's End. 

We know Ned would have wondered about that.  Just as others, such as Robert, must have.

We can very reasonably guess he asked them about that.

We also know that Hightower, at a bare minimum, was a Targ loyalist to the bone.  For instance, in instructing Jaime not to judge Aerys when he burned Rickard Stark alive.

And finally, GRRM was asked point blank in the Shaw interview about this passage.  And he said it was about orders Rhaegar gave the KG, that forced them to obey whether they liked it or not... as opposed to "Ned's dream was bullshit, so it's a moot point."

So I think the dialogue is basically accurate.  

Ned did wonder where the hell the KG had been, especially since he believed them to be Targaryen loyalists and hence, they should have played a major role far earlier.  He did ask them about that.  They did give the answers we get, if not in that exact language.

However, I also believe there was more dialogue we never got in the dream.  For instance.... the idea that Ned would have left out his sister Lyanna is not plausible to me.  But in the dream, he never does mention her.

The whole conversation takes place in Ned fever dream, and if dreams aren't literal then it's not a fact that they weren't at those places (Trident, Sack, Viserys, Storms End).

GRRM's answer was hypothetical and not confirmation. He was saying hypothetically that the Kingsguard would go and do what was ordered.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The whole conversation takes place in Ned fever dream, and if dreams aren't literal then it's not a fact that they weren't at those places (Trident, Sack, Viserys, Storms End).

GRRM's answer was hypothetical and not confirmation. He was saying hypothetically that the Kingsguard would go and do what was ordered.

This is also a recurring dream, a script playing out over an unresolved conflict:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dream-factory/201411/whats-behind-your-recurring-dreams

They were no ordinary men:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

One is a fallen star, one is a fallen tower and the other is a bat of Harrenhal.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

This is also a recurring dream, a script playing out over an unresolved conflict:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dream-factory/201411/whats-behind-your-recurring-dreams

They were no ordinary men:

One is a fallen star, one is a fallen tower and the other is a bat of Harrenhal.

 

Your link about recurring dreams typically coming from anxiety, or unresolved trama or conflict fits with how I interpreted the fever dream. We cannot with absolute certainly accept the events in the dream until GRRM expands on it or supplies additional information. Until that additional text is supplied, I think it's false evidence meant to lure the reader into believing RLJ.

[Black Crow]

Its worth remembering both the context of the dream and afterwards. The dream is triggered by the fight with Jaime's men and specifically by the death of Jory Cassel and Ned's other men in a pointless fight triggered by a kidnapping, and afterwards, once awake, Ned consciously recalls burying the combatants beneath a cairn using stones from an old tower.

We can therefore conclude that part of the dream is true and that as "an old dream" it has been rehearsed many times before.

The not to be taken literally warning by GRRM in the context of the question which preceded it, relates to Lyanna, and suggests that we should not assume that the fight by the tower and Lyanna's death took place at the same time and in the same place although we can probably connect the two.

The conversation between Ned and the three King's Guard is straightforward. He expresses surprise that they weren't where they might have been expected. They express regret that they were not, but were obeying orders. GRRM has addressed this question of the orders, so presumably this exchange did take place and is significant.

They fought and died where Ned found them because they were bound to obey certain orders they had been given whether or not those orders still had any meaning.

None of which provides evidence that Lyanna was at that same moment within an old tower which was later pulled down for the sake of its stones

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

ts worth remembering both the context of the dream and afterwards. The dream is triggered by the fight with Jaime's men and specifically by the death of Jory Cassel and Ned's other men in a pointless fight triggered by a kidnapping, and afterwards, once awake, Ned consciously recalls burying the combatants beneath a cairn using stones from an old tower.

Ned's other pointless fights have been with Robert; the reason he quit the job over orders to kill Dany along with tales of a fight before he went to the ToJ.   

[Brad Stark]

32 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth remembering both the context of the dream and afterwards. The dream is triggered by the fight with Jaime's men and specifically by the death of Jory Cassel and Ned's other men in a pointless fight triggered by a kidnapping, and afterwards, once awake, Ned consciously recalls burying the combatants beneath a cairn using stones from an old tower.

We can therefore conclude that part of the dream is true and that as "an old dream" it has been rehearsed many times before.

The not to be taken literally warning by GRRM in the context of the question which preceded it, relates to Lyanna, and suggests that we should not assume that the fight by the tower and Lyanna's death took place at the same time and in the same place although we can probably connect the two.

The conversation between Ned and the three King's Guard is straightforward. He expresses surprise that they weren't where they might have been expected. They express regret that they were not, but were obeying orders. GRRM has addressed this question of the orders, so presumably this exchange did take place and is significant.

They fought and died where Ned found them because they were bound to obey certain orders they had been given whether or not those orders still had any meaning.

None of which provides evidence that Lyanna was at that same moment within an old tower which was later pulled down for the sake of its stones

We know the tower was referred to as "The tower of Joy".  A suitable name for a lover's hideaway, but a strange name for a military post.

We also have Ned tearing down the tower, and if I remember right, text supporting bitter feelings and hatred towards the tower itself.  Wyatt Earp didn't tear down the O.K. Corral itself after his gunfight.

[Black Crow]

Then again, when Tyrion muttered "oh joy" he wasn't expressing true happiness

[Melifeather]

I hope we don't veer off our more interesting discussion comparing the blood riders to the Kingsguard. Maybe that wasn't the majority, but I think it's more intriguing than rehashing the toj scene.

[Brad Stark]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I hope we don't veer off our more interesting discussion comparing the blood riders to the Kingsguard. Maybe that wasn't the majority, but I think it's more intriguing than rehashing the toj scene.

The TOJ scene has been rehashed often on hearesy, often with nothing new.  However the quote that "Aerys would yet sit on the iron throne" does not fit with what Rhaegar wanted and would trust the Kingsguard to know.  This is a new idea, at least to me.

Parallels between the Kingsguard and Bloodriders is also something new, so I hope to see it discussed, but I don't have anything to add.

[JNR]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

But my point is it is Ned might be imagining a conversation that never took place.  He fought and killed 3 men he highly respected and thinking about what they might have said if he talked to them first.

The idea is... that he simply rode up, hopped off his horse, whipped out his sword and got to work? 

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The whole conversation takes place in Ned fever dream, and if dreams aren't literal then it's not a fact that they weren't at those places (Trident, Sack, Viserys, Storms End).

Well, we know they died at the TOJ because Ned's waking memory is:

Quote

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed

So if they were at any of the earlier events, the following would have to be true:

1) No one noticed or remembered them, at least as mentioned at any time in canon, despite their extremely memorable nature as members of the Kingsguard;

2) All three survived whatever of the four events they participated in;

3) They also had time to beat Ned to the TOJ afterward.

I suppose it's possible that (for instance) Arthur Dayne fought at the Trident and yet there's been no reference to that, or that Oswell Whent fled with Viserys to Dragonstone and yet got to the TOJ before Ned... but it doesn't seem likely to me.

Also, Ned was personally present at the Trident and Storm's End,  and it really seems like if any of them were there, he would remember it.

[JNR]

And now I have to watch Donald Trump's last SOTU address.