Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

So the KG were at the ToJ but we haven't heard the complete story.

Not quite. He said the KG knew what was in the TOJ, but he didn't confirm they were there. HAR!

[Brad Stark]

24 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

I think we are supposed to learn that these 3 KG were not at the trident, were absent from KL during the sack, were not at Storms End when Ned ended the siege, and they didn't flee to Dragonstone with the queen and Viserys.  All of these were surprises to Ned because he did expect to see them at one or more of those places and was surprised to find them at the TOJ. 

I agree Ned was surprised he didn't see the Kingsguard before the tower of Joy.  But I don't think he was surprised to see them at the tower.  The conversation (real or imagined) does not include anything on why they are there, why the fight takes place or any attempt to prevent it.  

We can guess from what GRRM said that they are following orders, whether to protect Jon, Lyanna or do something else.  Whatever it is, it is important enough to Ned that he doesn't back down.  But the people,  place and reason seem to be obvious enough to Ned that he isn't thinking about it.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

I agree completely.

I'll be thrilled to bits to find out if the extent of Howland's intervention was only to stop Arthur Dayne from killing Ned and that ended the fighting.    

[The Hidden Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Pardon me my young man, and excuse the shit out of my fucking French! You are right about it being a fever dream! I've only been reminding JNR of this same fact on my posts today and yesterday, and then I go and support a detail out of it! MY BAD!

We also cannot cherry pick the passage for things we want to be true or not, so I cannot go along with the rest of what you're saying about the whereabouts of the Kingsguard. 

Firstly, consider your fucking french excused, including the shit that was in it!

Secondly, thanks for the response. 

Regarding the local of the KG (I apologize if this is repetitive, but I haven't read the entire thread yet - MY OH SO BAD - but I will after this post), do you concede that the KG were not at the Trident?  Do you concede that they did not flee to Dragonstone?  Do you concede that they were not at KL during the sack?

[The Hidden Dragon]

32 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I agree Ned was surprised he didn't see the Kingsguard before the tower of Joy.  But I don't think he was surprised to see them at the tower.  The conversation (real or imagined) does not include anything on why they are there, why the fight takes place or any attempt to prevent it.  

I agree, we do not have the entire story about what transpired at the TOJ.  GRRM is slowly peeling away the onion.  I only hope we get a full reveal at some time.  I'm afraid it's in him to reveal some, but not all, thus leaving the readers to fill in the blanks.

[Melifeather]

15 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

Firstly, consider your fucking french excused, including the shit that was in it!

Secondly, thanks for the response. 

Regarding the local of the KG (I apologize if this is repetitive, but I haven't read the entire thread yet - MY OH SO BAD - but I will after this post), do you concede that the KG were not at the Trident?  Do you concede that they did not flee to Dragonstone?  Do you concede that they were not at KL during the sack?

 

I concede nothing, because I don't know whether they were or were not at the Trident, Dragonstone, etc! The only time their local is mentioned is in the fever dream, which makes it unreliable information. 

[The Hidden Dragon]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'll be thrilled to bits to find out if the extent of Howland's intervention was only to stop Arthur Dayne from killing Ned and that ended the fighting.    

And does this thrilling of your bits involve Arthur living or not?  I recall that Ned seemed sad when speaking about Arthur to Arya.  To me that implies that Arthur is dead.

 

[Black Crow]

49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

So the KG were at the ToJ but we haven't heard the complete story.

Indeed and it needs to be emphasised that GRRM's statement wasn't a general one but was a response to a specific question which assumed Lyanna and "baby Jon" were in the tower. He declined to answer that question because "Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal."

As to the follow up question

"Also, did the Kingsguards know what was in the Tower? - Certainly".

GRRM is of course renowned for his gnomic answers. What was in the tower may have been nothing

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

And does this thrilling of your bits involve Arthur living or not?  I recall that Ned seemed sad when speaking about Arthur to Arya.  To me that implies that Arthur is dead.

 

I'm on the fence.  As Black Crow mentions above; GRRM is renowned for his gnomic answers and 'Arthur would have killed me if it had not been for Howland' could imply that Howland caused Arthur to stay his hand rather than kill Ned in the end.    So GRRM other comment that 'two walked away from the toj" could imply that Ned and Arthur walked away from the fight. Of course that implies a bunch of things that would be complete speculation.

I would be thrilled and surprised if this is so; just as I'd be thrilled to find out that Qyburn attached Robert Baratheon's head to Gregor Clegane's body. But I'm not sure how thrilled Cersei would be. LOL

[The Hidden Dragon]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I concede nothing, because I don't know whether they were or were not at the Trident, Dragonstone, etc! The only time their local is mentioned is in the fever dream, which makes it unreliable information. 

Cheers to you too!  Concede nothing! 

Ah, but in George's world what can we really know?  Is there anything we can be certain of?  George is spoonfeeding us bits of this and bits of that.  Some of the medicine is real, some is a placebo. Who knows what the truth is??????

We're left to puzzle things out and as the gulf of time between ADWD and TWOW widens our imaginations leap in to fill in the gap, tripping us up and making us see shadows and princes and heroes, or are they villains, everywhere we look (I need a drink).

...yes, we don't know where the KG were, but we can reason out (is that code for speculate?) that had they been at the trident we would have heard. After all, we are told numerous times that there were 3 KG at the Trident with Rhaegar.  So, I "reason" that Whent, Dayne and Hightower were not at the trident.  Jaime, himself, confirms that he was the only KG at KL during the sack...so I reason that our KG were not at KL.  Similar reasonings give me confidence that our KG were not at Storms End or on Dragonstone.  

So, where were they? Maybe at the TOJ...or maybe not.  I concede nothing.

 

[The Hidden Dragon]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm on the fence.  As Black Crow mentions above; GRRM is renowned for his gnomic answers and 'Arthur would have killed me if it had not been for Howland' could imply that Howland caused Arthur to stay his hand rather than kill Ned in the end.    So GRRM other comment that 'two walked away from the toj" could imply that Ned and Arthur walked away from the fight. Of course that implies a bunch of things that would be complete speculation.

I would be thrilled and surprised if this is so; just as I'd be thrilled to find out that Qyburn attached Robert Baratheon's head to Gregor Clegane's body. But I'm not sure how thrilled Cersei would be. LOL

Robert's head on Clegane's body?  Wow.  I haven't read that one before.  That certainly would be shocking and quite cool!

Yes, the obvious interpretation of GRRM's words is not always the one he intends.  On that point, what are your thoughts on this...

"It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years."

The obvious interpretation is that 8 men died and that 2 lived (i.e. 8 cairns, 7 men plus 3 men minus 2 who rode away equals 8), but another interpretation is that the phrase "yet only two had lived to ride away" refers not back to the "seven against three" group, but refers back to "they" in the same sentence.  And who are they - "They had been seven".  Read it as " They had been seven...yet only two had lived to ride away."  That interpretation leaves open the possibility the KG were not killed, but could still be alive, some or all.

I'm not advocating this interpretation, although i think it would be plausible, but it's an example of how the simple interpretation of GRRM's words may not be exactly what he intends.

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

And who are they - "They had been seven".  Read it as " They had been seven...yet only two had lived to ride away."  That interpretation leaves open the possibility the KG were not killed, but could still be alive, some or all.

It certainly does leave the question open: only two of the seven? or two of ten rode away?  Also the statement 'they had been seven' calls into question Ned's statement that 'they had found him holding Lyanna's body in silent grief.  So yes, it's a good example of the difference between literal interpretation and intent.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

...yes, we don't know where the KG were, but we can reason out (is that code for speculate?) that had they been at the trident we would have heard. After all, we are told numerous times that there were 3 KG at the Trident with Rhaegar.  So, I "reason" that Whent, Dayne and Hightower were not at the trident.  Jaime, himself, confirms that he was the only KG at KL during the sack...so I reason that our KG were not at KL.  Similar reasonings give me confidence that our KG were not at Storms End or on Dragonstone.  

So, where were they? Maybe at the TOJ...or maybe not.  I concede nothing.

I agree entirely.

The accounts we have of the Trident name those present and what happened to them, similarly Jaime's account in particular is clear on his being the only member of the King's Guard in King's Landing. The flight to Dragonstone only mentions Ser Willem Darry. We know nothing about the surrender at Storm's End but its hard to see any significance to the three fleeing from there.

So where were they, other than "far away" from those places?

I have difficulty as I've rehearsed many times before, with the notion that they were at a remote tower in the Prince's Pass all the time. GRRM's "fever dream" comment is most sensibly interpreted as meaning that while the fight with the King's Guard at the tower and Lyanna's death are linked, they did not occur at the same time and place.

I firmly believe that the fight was a formally agreed rencounter at a convenient sityated landmark

There are, therefore a couple of alternatives.

We can rule out "they" at the deathbed scene being Ned's men, because the rencounter would have been far more charged

so, either the Kings Guard were running and fought a rearguard fight at the tower - unlikely because its more like two fought while the third went with Lyanna, or taking the Dayne connection, she died at Starfall

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree entirely.

The accounts we have of the Trident name those present and what happened to them, similarly Jaime's account in particular is clear on his being the only member of the King's Guard in King's Landing. The flight to Dragonstone only mentions Ser Willem Darry. We know nothing about the surrender at Storm's End but its hard to see any significance to the three fleeing from there.

So where were they, other than "far away" from those places?

I have difficulty as I've rehearsed many times before, with the notion that they were at a remote tower in the Prince's Pass all the time. GRRM's "fever dream" comment is most sensibly interpreted as meaning that while the fight with the King's Guard at the tower and Lyanna's death are linked, they did not occur at the same time and place.

I firmly believe that the fight was a formally agreed rencounter at a convenient sityated landmark

There are, therefore a couple of alternatives.

We can rule out "they" at the deathbed scene being Ned's men, because the rencounter would have been far more charged

so, either the Kings Guard were running and fought a rearguard fight at the tower - unlikely because its more like two fought while the third went with Lyanna, or taking the Dayne connection, she died at Starfall

Not sure why you find the idea of them being at the tower of Joy so unlikely,  but the obvious answer is they were with Lyanna.  They could have been at Starfall or anywhere people were more loyal to Rhaegar than anyone who'd create a problem such as the Martells.  We do know Ned found Lyanna at some point,  and she wasn't with Rhaegar at the Trident.  If Lyanna was left on her own, why wouldn't she go back to Winterfell,  especially knowing Rhaegar was dead?

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree entirely.

The accounts we have of the Trident name those present and what happened to them, similarly Jaime's account in particular is clear on his being the only member of the King's Guard in King's Landing. The flight to Dragonstone only mentions Ser Willem Darry. We know nothing about the surrender at Storm's End but its hard to see any significance to the three fleeing from there.

So where were they, other than "far away" from those places?

I have difficulty as I've rehearsed many times before, with the notion that they were at a remote tower in the Prince's Pass all the time. GRRM's "fever dream" comment is most sensibly interpreted as meaning that while the fight with the King's Guard at the tower and Lyanna's death are linked, they did not occur at the same time and place.

I firmly believe that the fight was a formally agreed rencounter at a convenient sityated landmark

There are, therefore a couple of alternatives.

We can rule out "they" at the deathbed scene being Ned's men, because the rencounter would have been far more charged

so, either the Kings Guard were running and fought a rearguard fight at the tower - unlikely because its more like two fought while the third went with Lyanna, or taking the Dayne connection, she died at Starfall

This makes the most sense to me.  Although, I'm now wondering if Arthur hung up his sword and walked away.  I'm just not sure where he would show up again unless it's as Haldon Halfmaester.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the 

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

Later, when Young Griff went up on deck to help Yandry with the sails and poles, Haldon set up his cyvasse table for their game. Tyrion watched with mismatched eyes, and said, "The boy is bright. You have done well by him. Half the lords in Westeros are not so learned, sad to say. Languages, history, songs, sums … a heady stew for some sellsword's son."

"A book can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands," said Haldon. "Try to give me a better battle this time, Yollo. You play cyvasse as badly as you tumble."

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

The numbers seven against three are a connection to Bael the Bard. I was reading about this on another thread.

Bael (sometimes spelled Baal, Baël or (French), Baell) is in 17th Century gothic occult writings one of the seven princes of the Underworld.   The name is drawn from the Canaanite deity Baal mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as the primary god of the Phoenicians. 

While his Semitic predecessor was depicted as a man or a bull, the demon Baal was in grimoire tradition said to appear in the forms of a man, cat, toad, or combinations thereof.   An illustration in Collin de Plancy's 1818 book Dictionnaire Infernal rather curiously placed the heads of the three creatures onto a set of spider legs.

Is it significant that Ned’s fever dream seems like a depiction of a battle between his men and the Great Other? Ned being of the north, along with his northmen, could be viewed as the seven princes of the Underworld fighting a three-headed Bael. Recall Old Nan’s depiction of the Others as having “spiders big as hounds” that scrabbled over the Wall much like Mance’s men. Doesn’t it make you wonder if the three-heads of the dragon are a misinterpretation of Bael?

Bael is reported as taking on a number of disguises in ASOIAF, most notably a singer, but it would be prudent to note that Bael is not human.

When Bael used his disguise as a singer to gain access to Winterfell, he “plucked” the daughter and left behind a rose. Ned’s fever dream connects the seven against three with his dead sister, Lyanna, and it’s that connection that makes the parallel to the Bael story.

Ygritte asserts that Jon is the “Bastard O’Winterfell” like in the Bael story, because after the daughter is returned she has a male child with her. She makes it sound like this is a recurring event, maybe even a requirement. Is it remotely possible that Rickard planned to circumvent tradition by marrying off his rose of Winterfell to a southron lord in order to prevent Bael from plucking his daughter?

I have been promoting a wheel of time theme in the books where events from the past keep reoccurring time and time again, but that Dany was the wheel breaker sending it in reverse. History is undoing itself. But can the players on the wheel avoid their destiny? Rickard tried to remove his daughter from her historical place, but the Bael “story” played through regardless. In the original story the daughter was found in the crypts among the dead, but she was very much alive.  IMO the seven versus three was a fight against destiny, so rather than being found alive among the dead, she died.

I will finalize my thoughts by harkening back to the dead mother direwolf scene where Ghost is the singular albino pup with the red eyes. If we presume all of the pups have the same mother - doesn’t this contradict Jon’s situation with regards to Catelyn not being his mother?  If Jon’s parents are neither Ned nor Catelyn, then perhaps the albino’s father and mother were also not the same as the other pups? Is this evidence of a baby swap? Jon notes that his wolf belongs to the old gods. Are we to assume the old gods placed him there like (Bael) a cuckoo bird in a nest?

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think it makes for a more interesting story than RLJ.

Sure.  However, it doesn't explain Ned's flat statement, while fully conscious, that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed.  

Unless Ned was lying to Bran when he said it, this proves Ned fought Dayne, it was a fight to the death, and Howland was also present and played an active role.  

We can still theorize it didn't happen at the TOJ, but such theories will still need to include Ned fighting Dayne to the death and being saved by Howland.  And it's not possible, based on current canon, to establish that Dayne was anywhere Ned also was, at any time during the Rebellion.

Another point.  The TOJ passage states that this is an old dream:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

So Ned has had it before, when he wasn't sick.  The fever isn't relevant, and we also know this is something of enormous importance to Ned, for him to dream of it multiple times over the years.

Finally, I hope no one reading this interprets any of this to be support for R+L=J.  

The presence of the Kingsguard at the TOJ and the theory of R+L=J are separate; the first, if true, does not confirm the second.  In fact, as I have said many times before on this site, I'm quite satisfied that Jon's parents are not Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, JNR said:

 

Another point.  The TOJ passage states that this is an old dream:

So Ned has had it before, when he wasn't sick.  The fever isn't relevant, and we also know this is something of enormous importance to Ned, for him to dream of it multiple times over the years.

 

I agree up to a point. The fight to the death at the tower was significant for Ned and would account for old dreams - remember the trigger was the fight with Jaime's men. Where I think the fever comes into it is by way of including Lyanna. He may well have dreamt of Lyanna in the past too but in his fevered state two different dreams morphed into one.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Not sure why you find the idea of them being at the tower of Joy so unlikely,  but the obvious answer is they were with Lyanna.  

I don't think there's any doubt they were with Lyanna - at least until she was too ill to move - but not at the tower. I'm increasingly of the view that she was Rhaegar's prisoner - as discussed by others above - although he may have deluded himself as to their relationship and this would be supported both by the lads' expressed loyalty to Aerys and indeed the presence of Whitetower. In other words she was being held.

[Matthew.]

34 minutes ago, JNR said:

Unless Ned was lying to Bran when he said it, this proves Ned fought Dayne, it was a fight to the death, and Howland was also present and played an active role.  

We can still theorize it didn't happen at the TOJ, but such theories will still need to include Ned fighting Dayne to the death and being saved by Howland.  And it's not possible, based on current canon, to establish that Dayne was anywhere Ned also was, at any time during the Rebellion.

Another point.  The TOJ passage states that this is an old dream:

Quote

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

So Ned has had it before, when he wasn't sick.  The fever isn't relevant, and we also know this is something of enormous importance to Ned, for him to dream of it multiple times over the years.

I would have to agree; it seems all but unquestionable that Eddard fought with Arthur Dayne as per the information you cited. Furthermore, some sort of conflict took place at the ToJ or within its vicinity to cause the death of Eddard's companions, at least as the story is understood publicly.

From Lady Dustin:

Quote

"Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had kin he might have sent in his stead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great-uncle who had fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. But he was a man and full of pride, nothing would serve but that he lead the Barrowton levies himself. I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lord father's herds. My lord swore that he would ride him home when the war was done.

"Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs."

In addition, there's an SSM where Martin confirms that Eddard's army did not accompany him into Dorne, so Lord Dustin did not die in the Red Mountains as a part of a larger military battle--whatever happened, it was a small scale conflict that resulted in the death of Eddard's entire coterie, save for himself and Howland Reed.

Given that Eddard later delivers Dawn to Starfall (and we're given no reason to believe he made future ventures to Starfall), it seems unlikely that Dayne died at any other point, chronologically.

Finally, as a matter of purely subjective taste, I think this whole "The KG were never at the ToJ" would be a really disappointing storytelling gimmick for GRRM to employ; it is, IMO, more compelling to surprise the reader by giving them incomplete information and allowing them to jump to their own conclusions, rather than feeding the reader false plot points.