Black Crow

Heresy 204; of cabbages, prophecies and kings

402 posts in this topic

39 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Edit: Ah, I see. Implicit in the app's version of events is the idea that Rhaegar's location was known enough (at least to the Crown) that Hightower could be sent to successfully retrieve him.

Except that in the actual text for Ned's dream; Hightower is included among the three who have been 'far away'.  So I don't think he was every sent to retrieve Rhaegar, but with them all along.

I think the ToJ trial by seven was the most honorable way to confront the KG who are standing by their oath to the king in that they are not released from their vow until they are dead.  I think they sent the invitation giving their location.

I also think the vow to the dead is something that Ned upholds and why he conflates Lyanna with the tower of joy in his dream and why Arthur is the most honorable knight he has ever known.  They both made vows to the dead that they must uphold until their own death.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Jaime would not do that. He was sincere. He gave me the sword, and called it Oathkeeper. Anyway, it made no matter. She had promised Lady Catelyn that she would bring back her daughters, and no promise was as solemn as one sworn to the dead. The younger girl was long dead, Jaime claimed; the Arya the Lannisters sent north to marry Roose Bolton's bastard was a fraud. That left only Sansa. Brienne had to find her.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Just now, LynnS said:

Except that in the actual text for Ned's dream; Hightower is included among the three who have been 'far away'.  So I don't think he was every sent to retrieve Rhaegar, but with them all along.

This may be, though the WB's version of events suggests that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep sometime after the Battle of the Bells to begin forming the force that would march with him to the Trident, so it is possible that Hightower and Whent were dispatched to Dorne at this point in time.

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1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

This may be, though the WB's version of events suggests that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep sometime after the Battle of the Bells to begin forming the force that would march with him to the Trident, so it is possible that Hightower and Whent were dispatched to Dorne at this point in time.

Yes, that's my point.  They must have been doing something other than hanging around the ToJ the whole time. 

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51 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

This may be, though the WB's version of events suggests that Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep sometime after the Battle of the Bells to begin forming the force that would march with him to the Trident, so it is possible that Hightower and Whent were dispatched to Dorne at this point in time.

 

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

They must have been doing something other than hanging around the ToJ the whole time. 

I think we can look to Dany’s chapters in ADWD for a murky idea of what was going on.   There are many similarities between the vague narrative of the TOJ & KG goings-on and the much clearer and more detailed conspiracies around her rule in Meeren.   

Recall that after Dany flew off on dragonback for parts unknown, she left poor Barristan and the rest of her crew behind to deal with the aftermath of the Terror at The Pits , as well as the continued trouble from the Sons of the Harpy, etc.   

Barristan agrees to conspire with the Shavepate and arrest Hizdahr for treason against the queen.   He then questions where his loyalties will lie and what he will do should Hizzy’s life be threatened-  Hizzy of course being Dany’s lawful husband by now- without official orders from her in place. (He thinks arresting  Hizzy is cool; killing him is not.) He thinks to himself that life was much easier when he had a Lord Commander to decide such matters.   Ultimately he affirms his commitment to the white cloak and chooses to defend the queen’s consort against the conspirators should it come to that, even without an explicit command to do so.

These chapters contain many subtle clues to the past, and this is one of the biggest, IMO.   At one time, there WAS a Lord Commander in a similar pickle, and he DID make a decision...and I believe the noble White Bull did not stand firm to his vows like Ser Barristan.

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10 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

 

I think we can look to Dany’s chapters in ADWD for a murky idea of what was going on.   There are many similarities between the vague narrative of the TOJ & KG goings-on and the much clearer and more detailed conspiracies around her rule in Meeren.   

Recall that after Dany flew off on dragonback for parts unknown, she left poor Barristan and the rest of her crew behind to deal with the aftermath of the Terror at The Pits , as well as the continued trouble from the Sons of the Harpy, etc.   

Barristan agrees to conspire with the Shavepate and arrest Hizdahr for treason against the queen.   He then questions where his loyalties will lie and what he will do should Hizzy’s life be threatened-  Hizzy of course being Dany’s lawful husband by now- without official orders from her in place. (He thinks arresting  Hizzy is cool; killing him is not.) He thinks to himself that life was much easier when he had a Lord Commander to decide such matters.   Ultimately he affirms his commitment to the white cloak and chooses to defend the queen’s consort against the conspirators should it come to that, even without an explicit command to do so.

These chapters contain many subtle clues to the past, and this is one of the biggest, IMO.   At one time, there WAS a Lord Commander in a similar pickle, and he DID make a decision...and I believe the noble White Bull did not stand firm to his vows like Ser Barristan.

Selmy also alludes to something else that looks suspiciously like Brandon's situation at Kingslanding:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

He did not wish to be conspicuous, so when he was finished with his supper he changed out of his court clothes, trading the white cloak of the Queensguard for a hooded brown traveler's cloak such as any common man might wear. He kept his sword and dagger. This could still be some trap. He had little trust in Hizdahr and less in Reznak mo Reznak. The perfumed seneschal could well be part of this, trying to lure him into a secret meeting so he could sweep up him and Skahaz both and charge them with conspiring against the king. If the Shavepate speaks treason, he will leave me no choice but to arrest him. Hizdahr is my queen's consort, however little I may like it. My duty is to him, not Skahaz.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Selmy also alludes to something else that looks suspiciously like Brandon's situation at Kingslanding:
 

 

Yes, exactly.   There are far more parallels as well.  All of these chapters can be mined for clues as to what happened during the Rebellion.

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1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

Yes, exactly.   There are far more parallels as well.  All of these chapters can be mined for clues as to what happened during the Rebellion.

Do tell!

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On 24/01/2018 at 11:50 AM, Black Crow said:

[I lied about the cabbages] 

I'm disappointed! When I read the title I thought it might be a thread to explore whether bastards could indeed be found under cabbage leaves!

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I refer to the answer I just gave.

So do I.  :D

There is simply no version of this story in which Aerys knew where Lyanna was... had the power to take her hostage... and somehow failed to do so for months... that will work. 

When I brought this up in R+L=J, Ran told me that Aerys was just too insane to think of it.

And so were all his advisors, apparently.    For months.  Nobody thought of taking Lyanna hostage.

However, I can't help but note Aerys wasn't too insane to think of this:

Quote

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad.

Quite an effective plan.  Guarantee control of Lewyn by taking Elia hostage; leverage Lewyn to command the 10,000 Dornishmen; dramatically increase the odds they will stay loyal to him and not flip to Robert.  It worked, too.

The mind that came up with that plan, however, was too insane to think of taking Lyanna hostage... or else the app is, er... not quite correct.

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12 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'm disappointed! When I read the title I thought it might be a thread to explore whether bastards could indeed be found under cabbage leaves!

well perhaps the weirwood trees are just a red herring and its really the killer cabbages who are the danger :P

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10 hours ago, JNR said:

... or else the app is, er... not quite correct.

At the end of the day and despite GRRM's supposed endorsement it seems very hard to believe that such a supposedly important plot point should rest on an electronic app created by a third party, rather than on the text.

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What is the most significant aspect of the ToJ passage?  Is it:

- the sword alive with light

- that Ned would have died had it not been for Howland

- "now it begins" ... "now it ends"

- the blood red sky

- a storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death

 

Edited by LynnS

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16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do tell!

LOL - I had to wait until I got home to look at the spreadsheet I made for it!

 

A good starting point is the masks worn by the Brazen Beasts - men of the Shavepate, who works for Dany to fight the Sons of the Harpy attempting to overthrow her queen-dom.   The Shavepate claims loyalty to her and has organized his Beasts on her behalf, and later plots with Barristan to arrest Hizdhar and keep him imprisoned - the Shavepate believes that the Queen's Consort is actually working for the Sons.    That being said, Barristan has misgivings about the Shavepate's loyalty and wonders if they are being double-crossed.

The Shavepate's BB mask?   A blood BAT.    A bat, such as the sigil sported by one Oswell Whent in the TOJ fever dream.

When Barristan follows through with the arrest plot, he meets up with the Shavepate and more of his Beasts.   The masks worn by the other men  are:      A bear, a manticore, a boar, and a vole.

If we apply this to King's Landing/Westerosi houses, we get:

Bear = Mormont.   We still don't know Jorah's involvement in the Rebellion, or Jeor's for that matter, but it's suspicious that Jorah as a member of a very isolated northern house seems to have so much personal knowledge of Rhaegar Targaryen - not to mention he swore his sword to Dany vis a vis Illyrio in a hot minute.     This tells me that the Mormonts were somehow a part of this mess.

Manticore = Lorch.    We know what he did in RR as Tywin's sworn man.   This speaks to a Lannister betrayal as well, which others have covered nicely.

Boar = Crakehall.    Again, Tywin's men.   Jaime squired for Lord Crakehall, and Lord Crakehall himself was one of the first men through the doors of the throne room after Jaime slew Aerys.  

Vole = Pycelle.    A vole is a small rodent, usually a dun color or grey.    We have Barbrey Dustin's description of the maesters as "grey rats", and of course at KL there's the biggest grey rat of all - a rat who again is a creature belonging to Lord Tywin.

 

Dany's retinue also includes one Reznak mo Reznak, aka the perfumed seneschal.    Reznak is a bald twittering man, prone to excess flattering and subservience; he comes across as false/oily/slimy.    Dany mistrusts him, mostly because she doesn't know his real motives; she often suspects that he is working against her.     Reznak is one of the few men that stays in her council after she marries Hizzy and he officially becomes "King".    Reznak and the Shavepate seem to be at continual odds over their handlings of the Sons; Barristan and the Shavepate agree to arrest Reznak along with Hizzy as part of the coup plans after Dany jets off on Drogon.     

Sound familiar?   Like anyone you know from elsewhere, perhaps?

 

That's a taste...I haven't finished the rest of the chapters yet, it's quite the project.

 

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13 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

LOL - I had to wait until I got home to look at the spreadsheet I made for it!...

...That's a taste...I haven't finished the rest of the chapters yet, it's quite the project.

 

An interesting analysis and I'll be intrigued as to where it goes.

One thing which immediately strikes me is the nature of the animal faces chosen. Lions, tigers, dragons and such are the usual fare for masks. These seem a bit subtle, as if there is indeed a hidden reason for the choices.

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1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

LOL - I had to wait until I got home to look at the spreadsheet I made for it!

OH boy, oh boy!  Spreadsheets are involved... this is going to be good!

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

At the end of the day and despite GRRM's supposed endorsement it seems very hard to believe that such a supposedly important plot point should rest on an electronic app created by a third party, rather than on the text.

:thumbsup:

God willing, we'll find out in TWOW, as part of the revelation of Jon's parents (whatever it may be).  And GRRM will then do interviews in which he confirms that it isn't all bullshit somehow.

(Call me crazy, and many have, but I still believe TWOW will be published.)

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

What is the most significant aspect of the ToJ passage?

Hard to say, but let me suggest another possibility for the list.

Quote

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Why would Aerys yet sit the Iron Throne if these three men had been in King's Landing?

Is it that they are such badasses that they, personally, would have defeated the invading Lannister host that sacked the city?  

(We can picture Arthur Dayne perhaps taking a piss with his right hand while wielding Dawn with his left, a huge stack of bodies forming in front of the blade.)

Or is it... maybe... that if the three KG had been in King's Landing, they would have brought Lyanna with them?  And so Aerys would have had her as a hostage?   And God only knows how the Rebellion would have turned out then?

Edited by JNR

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21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Or is it... maybe... that if the three KG had been in King's Landing, they would have brought Lyanna with them?  And so Aerys would have had her as a hostage?   And God only knows how the Rebellion would have turned out then?

1. They returned from Dorne with an army at their command; or

2. Pycelle would have opened the gates anyway and the result would be the same

3. But then how would they know Jaime is a false brother?  I guess they arrived in time to stop Aerys from burning the place to the ground.

Edited by LynnS

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4 hours ago, JNR said:

 

Why would Aerys yet sit the Iron Throne if these three men had been in King's Landing?

Is it that they are such badasses that they, personally, would have defeated the invading Lannister host that sacked the city?  

 

I think the straightforward answer is that Jaime Lannister, the youngest and most inexperienced member of the Kings Guard was left in charge of the shop and not only failed to defend the city but was [apparently] complicit in letting his father's army in and then murdering the king himself.

Had the White Bull and the other two been there, let alone at the Trident, they would have kept the gates shut, made a proper fight of it and if the worst came to the worst hustled the King away to safety whether he wanted to go or not.

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On 1/25/2018 at 1:31 PM, PrettyPig said:

 

I think we can look to Dany’s chapters in ADWD for a murky idea of what was going on.   There are many similarities between the vague narrative of the TOJ & KG goings-on and the much clearer and more detailed conspiracies around her rule in Meeren.   

Recall that after Dany flew off on dragonback for parts unknown, she left poor Barristan and the rest of her crew behind to deal with the aftermath of the Terror at The Pits , as well as the continued trouble from the Sons of the Harpy, etc.   

Barristan agrees to conspire with the Shavepate and arrest Hizdahr for treason against the queen.   He then questions where his loyalties will lie and what he will do should Hizzy’s life be threatened-  Hizzy of course being Dany’s lawful husband by now- without official orders from her in place. (He thinks arresting  Hizzy is cool; killing him is not.) He thinks to himself that life was much easier when he had a Lord Commander to decide such matters.   Ultimately he affirms his commitment to the white cloak and chooses to defend the queen’s consort against the conspirators should it come to that, even without an explicit command to do so.

These chapters contain many subtle clues to the past, and this is one of the biggest, IMO.   At one time, there WAS a Lord Commander in a similar pickle, and he DID make a decision...and I believe the noble White Bull did not stand firm to his vows like Ser Barristan.

Do you think Daenerys three blood riders are the parallels to the three Kingsguard Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Gerold Hightower? It seems awfully convenient that Dayne, Whent, and Hightower are "far away" leaving their King vulnerable. When crossing the red waste - which in effect could be a symbolic reference to the Rebellion - Dany sends her three blood riders in different directions. 

I cannot help but be drawn to parallels since I've worked with them so much in the past, so forgive me if I am jumping in on your research.

First off, it seems logical that Ser Barristan Selmy could be Ser Gerold Hightower's parallel.

Dany's blood riders - part of her Queensguard

Aggo - is sent southwestwhere he find nothing but sterile desert and the ruins of two abandoned cities, one of which is warded by skulls and the other where he finds an iron bracelet, which he brings back to Daenerys. He is the second bloodrider to come back to Vaes Tolorro. After his return, Daenerys sets him to repairing the gates to defend the town should they come under attack.

Jhogo - leaves to the southeast and follows the shirk qiya (the red comet). He is the last to return, having found the city of Qarth, and is accompanied by three representatives of the city, Pyat Tree, Quaithe, and Xaro Xhoan Daxos.

Rakharo - leaves to the south, where he finds mostly nothing but barren land and the sea. He claims he discovered the bones of a dragon so immense that he had ridden his horse through its great black jaws. He is the first bloodrider to return. Daenerys then puts him in charge of pulling up the plaza in an effort to turn it into a garden.

Haggo was Khal Drogo's fourth bloodrider, but was killed by Jhogo and Rakharo when he tried to stop Mirri's blood magic. I'm wondering if Jaime isn't Haggo's parallel? He would be an inversion since the other Kingsguard didn't kill him, but rather left him protecting the King/Khal.

Strong Belwas - eunuch and former pit fighter sent by Illyrio Mopatis - Queen's executioner and possible parallel to Ser Illyn Payne.

Illyrio Mopatis could be the parallel to Varys

Jorah Mormont was banished versus the banished Jeor Mormont

During the siege of Meereen, which could parallel Kings Landing, Aggo almost comes to blows with Jhogo and Rakharo over who would fight Oznak zo Pahl, the Hero of Meereen; Daenerys ultimately stops her bloodriders from fighting, deeming them brave but too young and valuable to lose. Oznak charges three times and on the fourth he ends up losing his head to Strong Belwas - so could he be the parallel to Ned Stark?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do you think Daenerys three blood riders are the parallels to the three Kingsguard Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Gerold Hightower?

Acutally, I think they are the inversions to them - I touched on that in the TOJ/Mirri's tent comparison.    The bloodrider parallels to the KG are DROGO's bloodriders Haggo, Qotho, and Cohollo.

Quote

TOJ: 7 Northmen on horseback approach a round tower, where they encounter 3 Kingsguard (KG). They were “seven facing three”.
Tent: 3 of Drogo’s bloodriders (BR) on horseback approach a tent, where they encounter 7 “pro-Dany” people: Dany, MMD, Jorah, Quaro, Jhogo, Aggo, Rakharo. They are three facing seven.

and

Quote

TOJ: Of the 3 KG, Arthur Dayne is the most revered knight, the “shining example to the world”. Gerold Hightower is the oldest, and has been LC of the KG since Summerhall (when Rhaegar was born).
Tent: Of the 3 BR, Qotho is the cruelest and most sadistic. Cohollo is the oldest, and has been sworn to Drogo from the day of Drogo’s birth.

and

Quote

Tent: Jorah, a knight, fights Qotho, the fiercest of the 3 BRs, first. They have opposite fighting styles – Jorah in plate & mail, wielding a sword, and Qotho, in spare Dothraki garb, wielding an arakh.  Despite Qotho’s skill with the arakh and his whirling like a dervish, he is slain by “The Andal.” Next, Rakharo (Team Dany) fights Haggo (Team BR) and kills him. Finally, Cohollo, the oldest BR and in service to Drogo the longest, attacks Dany and is killed by Aggo.

TOJ: If we follow the pattern….Hightower is killed first, after some kind of struggle with Ned.   Whent’s death follows.   Lastly, we get to Arthur Dayne, the greatest of the KG, a knight armored in the garb of the KG – to preserve the inversion, he would fight a northman with unconventional skills… meaning HOWLAND MOTHER-GRABBING REED. The knight falls to these skills and is slain by “The Crannogman.”

 

However, I definitely like the catch of Dany's bloodriders heading out in different directions to find salvation!   As this happens AFTER her dragons have hatched, I'm excited to see where this could go in terms of a parallel - particularly since Dany was more or less mirroring Ned when it came to the tent ceremony vs. the TOJ.   Could this be indicative of Ned's movements after the TOJ/returning to Winterfell (if this is a parallel to the journey through the Red Waste), or would it be a backwards inversion with these events reflecting Ned's trip south BEFORE getting to the TOJ?   

Nice find!

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Illyrio Mopatis could be the parallel to Varys

Jorah Mormont was banished versus the banished Jeor Mormont

oooh, I like this too.

Edited by PrettyPig

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