What's your favourite Reverse Honeypot?

[Beardy the Wildling]

Hey there, it's Beardy, once again terrorising the GoT fora. And this time I have a query: What has been your favourite Reverse Honeypot of the recent seasons of Game of Thrones. Here's a definition of both honeypotting and its reversal, courtesy of the fandomentals:

Honeypotting/The Honeypot Phenomenon: As we noted, D&D Logic doesn’t adhere to normal logic, and the Off-Screen Zone is a happening place. That can make watching the show itself quite confusing. Luckily for D&D, their fans are far more intelligent and creative than they are, and willing to think up well thought-out theories in an attempt to make sense of everything. In other words…they’re doing the writers’ jobs.

The most famous example of this, and the titular example for that reason, was that of the “Lannister Honeypot Theory,” where everyone figured that Talisa was such a stupid invention on the part of D&D that there had to be more to her than met the eye. Once she began writing letters in Volantine to her mommy, the theory was that she was really a Lannister spy sent to seduce Robb into breaking his vows; a honeypot trap set by Tywin to enable the Red Wedding to occur.

But no. Like Talisa, the Lannister Honeypot Theory was stabbed repeatedly in 03×09. She was exactly what she appeared: a noblewoman from Volantis who was such an awesome feminist that she would walk around battlefields without a chaperone, sass-talking a king.

It may be tempting to honeypot things along the way such as, “Sansa and Arya are totally playing Littlefinger with this animosity.” Nope. Arya wanted to cut her face off and wear it. “It would make way more sense if a week had passed North of the Wall for the raven to fly to Dragonstone.” Yes, it would makes more sense. And yet it was totally just one night. Would that we had honeypotters actually writing the scripts instead, because then we’d probably have a coherent show.

Reverse Honeypotting: Honeypots can sort of be thought of as very intelligent stories or plot-points that D&D didn’t tell. However, a reverse honeypot is when there’s a story that is told, usually due to Unfortunate Implications, that D&D had no fucking clue was on our screens (else maybe some of these implications would have actually had follow-ups). Our favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is the noble tale of Hizdahr zo Sansa (may he rest in peace), and his completely awesome, Sansa-in-A Clash of Kings-esque, resistance narrative. Our least favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is where Tommen was a rape victim of Margaery Tyrell, and his suicide was a horrific exploration of why we have statutory laws. There’s many stories in between, too.

So, with these definitions in mind (sass added, this time, by the fandomentals, not me), what Reverse Honeypot is your favourite? Heck, discuss your favourite honeypots here too.

My favourite Reverse Honeypot: That Bronn is secretly a bisexual man, deeply insecure about his attraction to men. He's constantly talking about how attractive Jaime is, and how women are always looking at him, and how lucky women are to be paid attention to by him, ever since Season 6. He even initially turns down a threesome with two women at the twins, likely because he was too busy admiring (once again) Jaime's skill with the ladies, and is likely wistfully hoping that Jaime-senpai will notice him. Even in earlier seasons, he was found showing off the whore he had prior to Blackwater to the Hound and the other Lannister soldiers instead of having sex with her in private, as if more concerned about showing off his heterosexuality than actually expressing it through actions.

Heck, there were two devoted scenes, once per Podrick-Bronn reunion, in which Bronn grabbed Podrick's cock and remarked upon its magical qualities. A man who is simply as obsessed with cocks and sex lives as D&D themselves? Or a self-loathing bisexual man who, while clearly attracted to women, is wrestling with torrid sexual longing for Jaime, who he sticks with and even saves the life of from a fucking dragon despite supposedly only being in it for the money (which incidentally, he still hasn't received). I know which story is more interesting, to be sure.

[Neverborn]

The bisexual bronn honeypot is gold. Wonder why I never noticed this before. Now I actually have something to look forward to in season 8. Because if D&D stay as unimaginative as before when they are writing bronn... they might as well tell an interesting (tragic) story without noticing it. Would be quite fitting if the "story arc" D&D didn't even think of would turn out to be one of the more interesting ones in season 8.

In this sense: many thanks to Beardy the Wildling. By informing me about this "improved" version of bronns character arc you managed to rekindle my interest for a character I loved in the early seasons and got really bored of in the later seasons.

Favourite Honeypot: I have no real favourites, because I tend to still get my hopes up whenever I hear one (also I should know better by now) and end up disappointed. So I will change favourite to most entertaining (in a silly kind of way). And no one will be able to tell me that the chains the nightking used in 7x6 were not tyrions chain that he was supposed to use in 2x9.

Favourite Reverse Honeypot: A little contrast in two quotes by cersei and sansa.

To quote sansa from 4x1: " I lie awake all night, staring at the canopy, thinking about how they died " (from the conversation with tyrion after the red wedding).

To quote cersei from 7x3: " I lie awake and I stare at the canopy and imagine ways of killing my enemies " (from her conversation with ellaria in the dungeon).

I know that it is to 90% totally accidental (since D&D tried their best to establish sansa as cerseis mini-me by showing their "similarities" (hairstyle )). But this little contrast of wording shows quite nice how sansa deals with the loss of her loved ones (robb, catelyn) by thinking about them and what she lost, in contrast to cercei who thinks about her revenge towards those who took her loved ones/children away from her. And this (accidental) contrast between sansa and cersei, is probably the closest thing we ever got to the characterisation of the real (book) sansa since season 4.

[Beardy the Wildling]

8 minutes ago, Neverborn said:

Favourite Reverse Honeypot: A little contrast in two quotes by cersei and sansa.

To quote sansa from 4x1: " I lie awake all night, staring at the canopy, thinking about how they died " (from the conversation with tyrion after the red wedding).

To quote cersei from 7x3: " I lie awake and I stare at the canopy and imagine ways of killing my enemies " (from her conversation with ellaria in the dungeon).

I know that it is to 90% totally accidental (since D&D tried their best to establish sansa as cerseis mini-me by showing their "similarities" (hairstyle )). But this little contrast of wording shows quite nice how sansa deals with the loss of her loved ones (robb, catelyn) by thinking about them and what she lost, in contrast to cercei who thinks about her revenge towards those who took her loved ones/children away from her. And this (accidental) contrast between sansa and cersei, is probably the closest thing we ever got to the characterisation of the real (book) sansa since season 4.

I really like this! As the definition suggests, completely unintentional by D&D, as female strength to them means imitating toxic masculinity or being hypersexual, and there's no place for quiet, emotional fortitude even in men of the series, as Doran Martell apparently died for being a 'weak man' who tolerates slight after slight to preserve his people.

But yeah, nice spot, and thanks for taking part!

[Pink Fat Rast]

On 24.1.2018 at 8:07 PM, Beardy the Wildling said:

Our least favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is where Tommen was a rape victim of Margaery Tyrell, and his suicide was a horrific exploration of why we have statutory laws.

The main reason why hot teachers banging horny teenage boys should be considered rape (even when that happens in the context of the boy having absolute legal power over her), is because if said hot teacher should get blown up in a political coup, that'll result in her lover experiencing extreme grief. 

(Preceded, of course, by the also extreme stress of seeing her arrested and led away for reasons unrelated to statutorily having raped him.)

 I know which story is more interesting, to be sure.

There's absolutely nothing about Bronn that would make even slightly more sense if he liked the steak in addition to the fish - in fact, the "maybe I'm not in the mood" makes more sense this way than the gay way.

It's a fun re-interpretation but suggesting gay subtext in a seemingly straight character is a very common pastime across fiction / fandoms and I don't see how it warrants being called a specific term such as "Reverse Honeypotting".

 

I really like this! As the definition suggests, completely unintentional by D&D, as female strength to them means imitating toxic masculinity or being hypersexual, and there's no place for quiet, emotional fortitude even in men of the series, as Doran Martell apparently died for being a 'weak man' who tolerates slight after slight to preserve his people.

If Doran had paid more attention to the views of his people, guards etc., he could've survived - he died just like Ned, Jeor Mormont, Roose Bolton and Jon Snow, for not watching his back for possible mutiny.

[Beardy the Wildling]

4 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

The main reason why hot teachers banging horny teenage boys should be considered rape (even when that happens in the context of the boy having absolute legal power over her), is because if said hot teacher should get blown up in a political coup, that'll result in her lover experiencing extreme grief. 

As I said, definition by fandomentals here, not me, but I think what they're going for is that Tommen was essentially drawn away from his own mother simply through sex alone, and this level of hold and manipulation over a developing boy is gonna fuck up a lot of his worldviews with regards to sex, love, etc. The main one being that sex is some sort of transactional thing, so he ultimately ties it to his self-worth.

Honestly, they could have elaborated more, because you're right to note it's not exactly clear.

[Pink Fat Rast]

I don't think any of this stuff was anywhere in the show - the relationship did affect his mental health severely when he jumped out of the window and effectively destroyed his brain (either by direct impact, or indirectly by stopping the bloodflow to the brain), that's about it I think - but then again this thread is about Reverse Honeypotting, so I guess that's how it's supposed to be.

(Actually you did say it was "your least favorite", I think I kinda forgot that part while writing my post.)


PS:
Margaery's "manipulation" ought to be preferable to Cersei's - although I forgot the details on who manipulated him specfiically in what way for what ends, so yeah.

[Beardy the Wildling]

38 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Margaery's "manipulation" ought to be preferable to Cersei's - although I forgot the details on who manipulated him specfiically in what way for what ends, so yeah.

While Book!Cersei manipulates Tommen through emotional abuse, Cersei's abuse in the show is closer to 'I'm your mum, help me out'... honestly, compared to sexual manipulation of a child, not that bad.

Early Season 6 King's Landing was weird because really, I was hating the Tyrells way more than Cersei. Cersei just felt like a scared, trapped animal than the 'worst person [Olenna] knows'. Obviously her blowing the Faith the fuck up kinda undermines that, so in the end she came around, but for the longest while I was like 'where's evil Cersei gone?'

[Annara Snow]

8 hours ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

The main reason why hot teachers banging horny teenage boys should be considered rape (even when that happens in the context of the boy having absolute legal power over her), is because if said hot teacher should get blown up in a political coup, that'll result in her lover experiencing extreme grief. 

(Preceded, of course, by the also extreme stress of seeing her arrested and led away for reasons unrelated to statutorily having raped him.).

 

Or maybe, I dunno, it's about how an adult having a relationship with a very young, developing and emotionally immature adolescent usually is a relationship with an extreme emotional power disbalance where the adult is able to completely manipulate the child/adolescent and make them fully emotionally dependent on themselves (which, oh guess what, Margaery was definitely doing with Tommen!) - maybe even to the point where the child/adolescent doesn't know how to function without their lover/abuser (like, I dunno - committing suicide upon learning of said abuser's death)?

Just a thought...

[Annara Snow]

4 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

As I said, definition by fandomentals here, not me, but I think what they're going for is that Tommen was essentially drawn away from his own mother simply through sex alone, and this level of hold and manipulation over a developing boy is gonna fuck up a lot of his worldviews with regards to sex, love, etc. The main one being that sex is some sort of transactional thing, so he ultimately ties it to his self-worth.

They probably did not elaborate more because they already had discussed it in a previous article, which was linked in the quoted paragraph:

 

https://www.thefandomentals.com/book-snob-glossary/

Reverse Honeypotting: Honeypots can sort of be thought of as very intelligent stories or plot-points that D&D didn’t tell. However, a reverse honeypot is when there’s a story that is told, usually due to Unfortunate Implications, that D&D had no fucking clue was on our screens (else maybe some of these implications would have actually had follow-ups). Our favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is the noble tale of Hizdahr zo Sansa (may he rest in peace), and his completely awesome, Sansa-in-A Clash of Kings-esque, resistance narrative. Our least favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is where Tommen was a rape victim of Margaery Tyrell, and his suicide was a horrific exploration of why we have statutory laws. There’s many stories in between, too.

 

The linked article also contains a link to a previous one: http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/117806525944/trading-kittens-for-coitus

[Beardy the Wildling]

Just now, Annara Snow said:

They probably did not elaborate more because they already had written an article about that, which was linked in the quoted paragraph:

 

https://www.thefandomentals.com/book-snob-glossary/

Reverse Honeypotting: Honeypots can sort of be thought of as very intelligent stories or plot-points that D&D didn’t tell. However, a reverse honeypot is when there’s a story that is told, usually due to Unfortunate Implications, that D&D had no fucking clue was on our screens (else maybe some of these implications would have actually had follow-ups). Our favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is the noble tale of Hizdahr zo Sansa (may he rest in peace), and his completely awesome, Sansa-in-A Clash of Kings-esque, resistance narrative. Our least favorite example of a Reverse Honeypot is where Tommen was a rape victim of Margaery Tyrell, and his suicide was a horrific exploration of why we have statutory laws. There’s many stories in between, too.

Ah, true, I forgot to preserve all the links.

[Pink Fat Rast]

9 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

While Book!Cersei manipulates Tommen through emotional abuse, Cersei's abuse in the show is closer to 'I'm your mum, help me out'... honestly, compared to sexual manipulation of a child, not that bad.

It's mainly about the direction they were stirring him (and/or the realm, through him) towards, than how they did it.

9 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Early Season 6 King's Landing was weird because really, I was hating the Tyrells way more than Cersei. Cersei just felt like a scared, trapped animal than the 'worst person [Olenna] knows'. Obviously her blowing the Faith the fuck up kinda undermines that, so in the end she came around, but for the longest while I was like 'where's evil Cersei gone?'

That's because you forgot about how Cersei started the whole thing by unleashing the FM on Margaery and Loras for petty reasons (I think) - she would've been standing there pointing and laughing at Margaery going through the Walk of Shame, had the High Sparrow not turned against her.

That's the thing here, of course: the viewer was supposed to be remembering all that, but then still finding themselves sympathizing with Cersei now that her schemes seem like an eternity ago and Margaery even struck a good deal for herself - you know, part of their brain forgets the context due to tunnel vision and living in the present etc., but then you snap out of it and remember what led to this point and that it's all Cersei's fault and well deserved, and you're supposed to have this conflict between different moral sensibilities and brain memory departments etc.

You weren't supposed to outright literally forget the whole plot of S5 though, esp. after Olenna's reminder in S6 - so what you're experiencing there, that sympathy for Cersei and resentment against the tyrells... is kiiiiiiind of the intended effect of the show, but as I said, it was supposed to be merely a part of your brain and not its entirety

[Pink Fat Rast]

6 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Or maybe, I dunno, it's about how an adult having a relationship with a very young, developing and emotionally immature adolescent usually is a relationship with an extreme emotional power disbalance where the adult is able to completely manipulate the child/adolescent and make them fully emotionally dependent on themselves (which, oh guess what, Margaery was definitely doing with Tommen!) - maybe even to the point where the child/adolescent doesn't know how to function without their lover/abuser (like, I dunno - committing suicide upon learning of said abuser's death)?

Just a thought...

Was that ever implied by the show, that he was unable to function without her in any form?

Think it's pretty undisputed that he jumped out of love-induced grief (after all this time trying to free her) and no other reason.




At any rate I'm not sure what larger point you're trying to make here - Tommen is a king, in a society that crowns clueless underage kings and hopes they listen to their advisors; in midsts of an unstable situation following a civil war.

If Margaery can do good for the realm and the smallfolk that way, it's a moral net benefit; and if her primary motivation is simply to become "the Queen" and get back at Cersei, well, then she's kind of a bit shady anyway - but it seems like her methods involve lots of charity and mercy so still a good thing at the end of the day.


Under less dire circumstances, and in a society that doesn't do things like give children absolute power or force people into arranged marriages, that behavior might start looking worse in isolation - but then again, under less dire circumstances, letting a horde of savages through the wall after they just massacred several villages, might also not be the best thing to do.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Under these definitions of Honeypotting and Reverse Honeypotting (which are not the definitions I would use in any other excercise), here is an idea for a reverse honeypot:  Davos is actually one of the most insecure and selfish men on the tv show, as evidenced by his reactions to Melisandre, alternately wanting to kill her allowing him to be close to Stannis, use her to bring Jon back to replace Stannis, then kill her again by addressing the Shireen burning only after the battle of the bastards was won and Jon didn't need any resurrecting (despite the fact that on two separate occasions he started to inquire about Shireen he waited until then to piece it together and confront her).  He used Stannis to gain his knighthood and advance his career.  He is using Jon now.  He claims to not be a fighter so as to avoid certain combat situations.

I don't actually believe any of this.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Was that ever implied by the show, that he was unable to function without her in any form?

Think it's pretty undisputed that he jumped out of love-induced grief (after all this time trying to free her) and no other reason.

Didn't you just answer your own question?

[Pink Fat Rast]

2 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Didn't you just answer your own question?

He definitely lost the ability to function after landing on that concrete floor and dying; I was asking whether he'd also lost some of it prior to that - after being come on to, after marrying, after her arrest, or at any of those points.

[Annara Snow]

41 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

He definitely lost the ability to function after landing on that concrete floor and dying; I was asking whether he'd also lost some of it prior to that - after being come on to, after marrying, after her arrest, or at any of those points.

I dunno, I'd say that a person has definitely lost their ability to function if they decide to commit suicide, but maybe that's just me. I'm sure you'll be able to explain how Tommen jumping to his death was actually a smart political move and an optimistic life choice, but unfortunately, the floor proved to be unwilling to cooperate, and deliberately and dishonorably took away his ability to function. 

[Pink Fat Rast]

7 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I dunno, I'd say that a person has definitely lost their ability to function if they decide to commit suicide, but maybe that's just me. I'm sure you'll be able to explain how Tommen jumping to his death was actually a smart political move and an optimistic life choice, but unfortunately, the floor proved to be unwilling to cooperate, and deliberately and dishonorably took away his ability to function. 

Ok, he lost his ability to function 15 seconds before hitting the ground - that still leaves the 2+ seasons of Margaery acquaintance unanswered.

[Beardy the Wildling]

2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Under these definitions of Honeypotting and Reverse Honeypotting (which are not the definitions I would use in any other excercise), here is an idea for a reverse honeypot:  Davos is actually one of the most insecure and selfish men on the tv show, as evidenced by his reactions to Melisandre, alternately wanting to kill her allowing him to be close to Stannis, use her to bring Jon back to replace Stannis, then kill her again by addressing the Shireen burning only after the battle of the bastards was won and Jon didn't need any resurrecting (despite the fact that on two separate occasions he started to inquire about Shireen he waited until then to piece it together and confront her).  He used Stannis to gain his knighthood and advance his career.  He is using Jon now.  He claims to not be a fighter so as to avoid certain combat situations.

I don't actually believe any of this.

It's an accidental story being told, to be sure. And I can go one further by saying he conned the Iron Bank with his folksy wisdom for shits and gigs

[Annara Snow]

I like the idea that Baby Sam is a being for whom time passes much slower than for everyone else, which is why he had grown so little (maybe he will reach adolescence in about 50 years), and that the universe is balancing this out by making time pass much more quickly than average for some other characters, particularly Aeron Greyjoy, which is why he looks about 15-20 years older than his eldest brother Balon and about 40-45 years older than his other elder brother, Euron. 

This certainly explains a lot of things about the show's timeline: clearly, for instance, the Riverlands exist on a different plane than, say, King's Landing (as it's easy to do math and see that the total amount of time between episode 3.9 and the end of season 6 in King's Landing was several months, at most a year if we are generous, but Edmure Tully had been a prisoner "for years"). Those different planes of existence intersect occasionally, which is why it seems that the Riverlands is in a void and then suddenly pops into existence from time to time. It also explains the drastically different travel times of various characters, which gave rise to the theory that some characters, like Little finger or Varys, have transporters. While that theory may have been compelling at one point, the "time passes differently" theory is much better at explaining everything, including the aging rate of baby Sam and the disappearing Riverlands.

It may also somewhat excuse Margaery Tyrell - as she only came to King's Landing at the end of season 2), she wasn't aware how slowly time passes in KL , and her sense of time that has passed since the events of season 1 (when Tommen was 8 years old, according to Loras) has made her believe that Tommen - who was constantly in King's Landing, where time passes more slowly - is much older than he really is, and no one ever corrected her misconception. (This confusion was also reflected in the actors, with Natalie Dormer saying in interviews during season 5 that Tommen was an innocent 17 year old, while Dean-Charles Chapman was saying Tommen was 12.)

 

 

 

(I'm looking forward to Pink Fat Rast writing a dead serious, 100,000 words post trying to disprove this,  using arguments he genuinely believes to be super duper strong and logical, and congratulating himself on how he's totes proven the bad book fans wrong and defended his beloved show. It's kind of funny in it's own way. )

 

[Pink Fat Rast]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

(I'm looking forward to Pink Fat Rast writing a dead serious, 100,000 words post trying to disprove this,  using arguments he genuinely believes to be super duper strong and logical, and congratulating himself on how he's totes proven the bad book fans wrong and defended his beloved show. It's kind of funny in it's own way. )

Lol why I should I write a serious refutation of something about how fast some toddler grows - I only addressed some of the relevant criticisms revolving around the main plotlines.

And if you think my refutations weren't sound or had flaws in them, you have the option to make such a case in a response comment. Thing is, this is a pretty good demonstration of how well R&R type arguments hold up in any other thread