Kandrax Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Alys Karstark says that daughters came before lord's brothers, yet in second book:"I will," Big Walder declared. "We're not the only Walders either. Ser Stevron has a grandson, Black Walder, he's fourth in line of succession. But Black have niece Walda so shouldn't she be fourth in line? Either Freys copy IT or daughters before lord's brothers is retcon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 It might be a difference between the First Men and Andal traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said: It might be a difference between the First Men and Andal traditions. But isn't Cersei lady of Casterly rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Kingship and a lordship may also be treated differently. So, you wouldn't go back to one of Tytos's other sons (Kevan), you stick with Tywin's children. If one of Alys's brother's had had a son, that son would have inherited. I am no expert, but I think this is a partial explanation: Male-preference primogeniture Male-preference primogeniture accords succession to the throne to a female member of a dynasty if she has no living brothers and no deceased brothers who left surviving legitimate descendants. A dynast's sons and their lines of descent all come before that dynast's daughters and their lines. Older sons and their lines come before younger sons and their lines. Older daughters and their lines come before younger daughters and their lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 35 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said: Kingship and a lordship may also be treated differently. So, you wouldn't go back to one of Tytos's other sons (Kevan), you stick with Tywin's children. If one of Alys's brother's had had a son, that son would have inherited. I am no expert, but I think this is a partial explanation: Male-preference primogeniture Male-preference primogeniture accords succession to the throne to a female member of a dynasty if she has no living brothers and no deceased brothers who left surviving legitimate descendants. A dynast's sons and their lines of descent all come before that dynast's daughters and their lines. Older sons and their lines come before younger sons and their lines. Older daughters and their lines come before younger daughters and their lines. This doesn't explain why is Black fourth instead of fifth in line of succesion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 The letter of the law is one thing, the ability to enforce it is another. Maybe the Winterfell Walders decided that a seven-year-old girl couldn't possibly force her claim to the Twins over Black Walder, so realistically Black Walder was fourth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 42 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said: He was called fourth while Stevron was still alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Kandrax said: He was called fourth while Stevron was still alive. Ugh, missed that. Sorry. Either unreliable narrator by the Frey kids, them just taking the daughter out of the succession (a la FVR's answer above), or a mistake by the author? Either way it is not likely to be of any consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 9 hours ago, Kandrax said: Either Freys copy IT or daughters before lord's brothers is retcon. I don't think it is as simple as that, I don't think Westeros has any set rules. The granddaughters of Cregan Stark, the daughters of his oldest son, were over looked for the Lordship of the North by their uncles, when the Hornwood inheritance is talked about Lord Hornwood's sister is not brought up and her sons have somehow jumped above her in the succession line while we see that even in Dorne Mariah Martell was overlooked when she got married and that was the intention for Arrianne Martell as well has she married Viserys. Perhaps wives in the line of succession (and their husbands) are given an option of which House they are going to 'serve' which would weaken their ties to the other House. In some cases it seems women marrying our taken out of the line of succession, so perhaps the theory is that the two great, great granddaughters of Walder Frey did not really count as one day they would be married and no longer be an obstacle. GRRM has likely been purposefully vague on this and it may mean that there is not so much a law but a case by case situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 8 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said: Ugh, missed that. Sorry. Either unreliable narrator by the Frey kids, them just taking the daughter out of the succession (a la FVR's answer above), or a mistake by the author? Either way it is not likely to be of any consequence. Well, if it is mistake, it is not only one. In same book after Stevron's death BW says, , that after Edwyn, Black is next in line, and in fourth Edwyn says to Jaime that he is only one standing between Black and Twins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said: I don't think it is as simple as that, I don't think Westeros has any set rules. The granddaughters of Cregan Stark, the daughters of his oldest son, were over looked for the Lordship of the North by their uncles, when the Hornwood inheritance is talked about Lord Hornwood's sister is not brought up and her sons have somehow jumped above her in the succession line while we see that even in Dorne Mariah Martell was overlooked when she got married and that was the intention for Arrianne Martell as well has she married Viserys. Perhaps wives in the line of succession (and their husbands) are given an option of which House they are going to 'serve' which would weaken their ties to the other House. In some cases it seems women marrying our taken out of the line of succession, so perhaps the theory is that the two great, great granddaughters of Walder Frey did not really count as one day they would be married and no longer be an obstacle. GRRM has likely been purposefully vague on this and it may mean that there is not so much a law but a case by case situation. This is possible answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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