Harrenhal As Seen Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes Part 2

[Curled Finger]

Many tales have grown up around Lord Whent's tournament: tales of plots and conspiracies, betrayals and rebellions, infidelities and assignations, secrets and mysteries, almost all of it conjecture. The truth is known only to a few, some of whom have long passed beyond this mortal vale and must forever hold their tongues. In writing of this fateful gathering, therefore, the conscientious scholar must take care to separate fact from fancy, to draw a sharp line between what is known and what is simply suspected, believed, or rumored.  TWOIAF The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.  ADWD The King Breaker

We discussed our little Crannogman’s arrival at Harrenhal through his observations of the events during Feast night in Part 1.  Robert Baratheon, the Starks, the White Swords, Rhaegar, Ashara Dayne, Jon Connington, Oberyn Martell, Elia Martell and Richard Lonmouth were of particular interest as we followed their progress and actions.  It is apparently clear that we need to keep in mind that we get this story as much as 4^th hand through Meera Reed’s retelling to Bran Stark.  Certainly she has motivations for her retelling and we reckon it’s possible Meera is holding information back.  In this part we will focus on the tournament and our little Crannogman’s perceptions and insights.  We will try to identify the participants and examine the motivations of involved. 

Five days of jousting were planned. There was a great seven-sided melee as well, and archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, and tourney of singers...

Where are those pesky Greyjoys?  Who would be better at an axe throwing (or catching) contest?  What is a tournament of singers?  A Goth Metal concert?  

The daughter of the castle was queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists.

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."  ASOS Bran II

The mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.

The armor doesn’t fit this knight.  The depiction of a white weirwood with any face is likely representative of a Northern house.  Northerners confirmed to be in attendance are The Starks, a Reed, Dustins, Manderlys, Mormonts and Hornwoods.   A Black Brother from the Nights Watch is hoping to recruit knights on feast night.   He is unnamed but could be anyone from Denys Mallister to Mance Rayder himself with Yoren in between.  Of all the people of the realm it’s unlikely the mystery knight was a Frey, Blount or Haigh.  Aerys probably wasn’t the mystery knight, either.  

The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. He challenged the porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers.

Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered...by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?  ASOS Bran II

 "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

"Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid.  ASOS Bran II

The daughter of the castle and reigning QoL&B was a Whent, as were her 4 brothers.  Our Spidey senses tell us the pitchfork knight was from House Haigh, the porcupine knight was from House Blount, the 2 towers represent  the Twins, House Frey.  The Whents (brothers, not Nuncle White Bull) lost on the 1^st day while the knight of House Blount won.  The Knights of Haigh and Frey won the 2^nd day of the tourney.    The Mystery Knight then defeats the knights of Blount, Frey and Haigh on the 2nd day.     

We know that Rhaegar, Brandon Stark and Barristan Selmy competed.  We assume all the Kings Guard present participated.  Who were other famous knights at the time?  Where are the Iron Islanders?  Were there any foreigners present?   Could any other famous or infamous knights from present day Westeros have competed in any of the contests? 

The sheer volume of potential conspiracies occurring at Harrenhal is astounding.  Opening statements here from both the World Book and Barristan Selmy lend themselves to much ado under the guise of a tournament.   In Part 1 we determined the following conspiracies may have been in play:  The North/Riverlands/Vale/Stormlands marriage alliances with the possible inclusion or perceived inclusion of the Westerlands as well.  Establishment of a general council to determine potential new rule.  Fulfillment of prophecy.   A Crownlands/Dornish alliance.  General upheaval at the Red Keep by those seeking disturbance in the realm or more selfish causes.  Possible previous relationships between Brandon and Rhaegar.  Secret Meetings.  Bad Manners. Love. Rape. Deception.  Intrigue.  All as seen through a little Crannogman’s eyes. 

Inasmuch as we want to discuss the topic a bit farther into Rhaegar and Lyanna after the tourney I would ask we try to veer away from that unless it directly relates to Harrenhal.  We’ve tossed around the idea that Brandon and/or Lyanna may have previously known Rhaegar.  The possible multiple identities of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  Aerys’ ulterior motives for attending the tourney.  The conspicuously missing parents and foster parents from The Riverlands, North and Vale.   Varys.

What I was unable to uncover was more quotes regarding attendees and participants.  If you have any I’ve missed, please feel free to add them.  I look forward to another utterly fascinating discussion and encourage you lurkers to join in wherever you like. 

[Lady Dacey]

Curled Fingers, it's a joy to be part of threads hosted by you. Our last exploration of Harrenhal brought a lot of new insight for me. I'm honored to be the first to respond to this thread. 

There is so much to explore here... that's how I'll start

The relationship between Richard Lonmouth and Robert Baratheon is something we've been trying to figure out since the last thread. The Knight of Skull and Kisses is a bannerman to the Storm Lord, but a personal friend and former squire to the Dragon Prince. What we get from Meera's tale is that he engaged in a wine-cup war with his liege lord. 

I went back to the books and looked for other instances where people played drinking games, and found two:

Quote

ACOK, Bran III

At the opposite end of the high table, Hother and Mors were playing a drinking game, slamming their horns together as hard as knights meeting in joust.

Quote

ASOS, Catelyn VII

Edmure was kissing Roslin and squeezing her hand. Elsewhere in the hall, Ser Marq Piper and Ser Danwell Frey played a drinking game, Lame Lothar said something amusing to Ser Hosteen, one of the younger Freys juggled three daggers for a group of giggly girls, and Jinglebell sat on the floor sucking wine off his fingers.

With hindsight we know that when the pairs Hother and Mors and Piper and Frey were playing together they were allies, but they later tuned enemies. Could the wine-cup war be considered a hint at that sort of interaction between the two? Did I just stumble on a foreshadowing device? 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Curled Fingers, it's a joy to be part of threads hosted by you. Our last exploration of Harrenhal brought a lot of new insight for me. I'm honored to be the first to respond to this thread. 

There is so much to explore here... that's how I'll start

The relationship between Richard Lonmouth and Robert Baratheon is something we've been trying to figure out since the last thread. The Knight of Skull and Kisses is a bannerman to the Storm Lord, but a personal friend and former squire to the Dragon Prince. What we get from Meera's tale is that he engaged in a wine-cup war with his liege lord. 

I went back to the books and looked for other instances where people played drinking games, and found two:

With hindsight we know that when the pairs Hother and Mors and Piper and Frey were playing together they were allies, but they later tuned enemies. Could the wine-cup war be considered a hint at that sort of interaction between the two? Did I just stumble on a foreshadowing device? 

Welcome, Lady, let the discussion begin!   

That whole Knight of skulls and kisses is such a strange thing.  I have to wonder how House Lonmouth happened to chose that for their sigil.   It's important to pay attention when a thing is mentioned more than once.   It means something.   You made quite a connection there in the phrase wine cup war and how it's used with friends turned enemies.   I can't imagine why this connection you've made couldn't be both foreshadowing and hint.   

Let's put this find in our pockets for a bit--I want to compare these houses to those mentioned by the Elder Brother who buries enemies side by side and take another look at their sigils.   Have you looked at the sigils yet?  I'm convinced there is something to sigils, but it hasn't yet gelled in my consciousness.   

A nice way to start things off.   It's so good to hear the previous conversation inspired you to dig deeper and find this interesting contrast and comparison.  I learned a great deal there too and already here in the maiden reply!   

[Lady Dacey]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The daughter of the castle and reigning QoL&B was a Whent, as were her 4 brothers.  Our Spidey senses tell us the pitchfork knight was from House Haigh, the porcupine knight was from House Blount, the 2 towers represent  the Twins, House Frey.  The Whents (brothers, not Nuncle White Bull) lost on the 1^st day while the knight of House Blount won.  The Knights of Haigh and Frey won the 2^nd day of the tourney.    The Mystery Knight defeats the knights of Blount, Frey and Haigh on the 3^rd day.     

We know that Rhaegar, Brandon Stark and Barristan Selmy competed.  We assume all the Kings Guard present participated.  Who were other famous knights at the time?  Where are the Iron Islanders?  Were there any foreigners present?   Could any other famous or infamous knights from present day Westeros have competed in any of the contests? 

Is the porcupine knight Boros? I mean, he's the only representant of house Blount  we've heard of in the books. He is around 40-50 years old according to Kettleblack and we know he lost to Jorah Mormont on the tourney of Lannisport in 298. It's possible... If he was unhorsed by the Knight of the Laughing Tree he could have some inside information about the tourney and even have something that if revealed might help us sort out the identity of the mistery knight... some recollection of the moment he ransomed his armour? 

He's now a royal taster in King's Landing. Which POV could possibly interact with him and get him talking about that?

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Is the porcupine knight Boros? I mean, he's the only representant of house Blount  we've heard of in the books. He is around 40-50 years old according to Kettleblack and we know he lost to Jorah Mormont on the tourney of Lannisport in 298. It's possible... If he was unhorsed by the Knight of the Laughing Tree he could have some inside information about the tourney and even have something that if revealed might help us sort out the identity of the mistery knight... some recollection of the moment he ransomed his armour? 

He's now a royal taster in King's Landing. Which POV could possibly interact with him and get him talking about that?

Let's see...I think Boros is with Tommen so that leaves Cersei as the POV.  If Boros is 40 that would have made him a good age for a knight at Harrenhal.  I seem to recall Boros being described as ill looking, but it's been a while since I visited ADWD, so don't bet anyone on that.   You know though, this is worth a search.   I'll get back to you if I find anything of note.   

[Seams]

I wondered whether the significance of the porcupine, pitchfork and twin towers sigils was not the men who jousted under those flags but the likely sources of their squires. House Haigh is from the riverlands and House Blount is from the crownlands. Frey squires would be strong possibilities for the twin towers and the pitchfork, and possible but less certain for the porcupine knight.

We know that there is a traditional enmity between House Frey and House Reed, as the two Walders immediately react with apparent disdain when Meera and Jojen arrive at the harvest feast at Winterfell. If two or three of their relatives were publicly shamed in front of the entire high-born population of Westeros, dressed down by the knights they served, I imagine the Freys would pass along a grudge to the next generation of their extended family.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Let's see...I think Boros is with Tommen so that leaves Cersei as the POV.  If Boros is 40 that would have made him a good age for a knight at Harrenhal.  I seem to recall Boros being described as ill looking, but it's been a while since I visited ADWD, so don't bet anyone on that.   You know though, this is worth a search.   I'll get back to you if I find anything of note.   

Ser Boros is 40 or 50 according to one of the Kettleblack brothers. If he's 40, he would have been 21 and if he's 50, he would have been 31. And the reason he looks ill because is because he is tasting all of Tommen's food. 

About the knights that the KotLT might have jousted against, Lord Walder Frey does have some interesting things to say about his sons.

Quote

"And your sister, that one, she's full as bad. It was, oh, a year ago, no more, Jon Arryn was still King's Hand, and I went to the city to see my sons ride in the tourney. Stevron and Jared are too old for the lists now, but Danwell and Hosteen rode, Perwyn as well, and a couple of my bastards tried the melee. If I'd known how they'd shame me, I would never have troubled myself to make the journey. Why did I need to ride all the way to see Hosteen knocked off his horse by that Tyrell whelp? I ask you. The boy's half his age, Ser Daisy they call him, something like that. And Danwell was unhorsed by a hedge knight! Some days I wonder if those two are truly mine. My third wife was a Crakehall, all of the Crakehall women are sluts. Well, never mind about that, she died before you were born, what do you care? (Catelyn IX, AGOT 59)

Perwyn is the son of Rosby who was Lord Walder's 5th wife. Hosteen and Danwell might fit better for the tourney of Harrenhal, and Hosteen was unhorsed by a 15 year old Loras Tyrell. And I'm not comparing the skill of the KotLT to Loras's skills or anything like that. But if Hosteen was unhores by a 15 year old boy now, I imagine he couldn't have been that good during the tourney of Harrenhal.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

He's now a royal taster in King's Landing. Which POV could possibly interact with him and get him talking about that?

And that's coz he ain't fit to be anything else!

But hey, he sticks to his vows and obeys his king blindly, so to many here he's a shining example!

@Curled Finger, I'm still on page 3 or 4 of the previous iteration! Dammit, I'm going to join in early this time around! And  for another excellent thread!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Curled Finger, I'm still on page 3 or 4 of the previous iteration! Dammit, I'm going to join in early this time around! And  for another excellent thread!

Same here!   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I wondered whether the significance of the porcupine, pitchfork and twin towers sigils was not the men who jousted under those flags but the likely sources of their squires. House Haigh is from the riverlands and House Blount is from the crownlands. Frey squires would be strong possibilities for the twin towers and the pitchfork, and possible but less certain for the porcupine knight.

We know that there is a traditional enmity between House Frey and House Reed, as the two Walders immediately react with apparent disdain when Meera and Jojen arrive at the harvest feast at Winterfell. If two or three of their relatives were publicly shamed in front of the entire high-born population of Westeros, dressed down by the knights they served, I imagine the Freys would pass along a grudge to the next generation of their extended family.

Seams, we are on the same page here...even if I'm actually looking for a danged missing sword!   However, my search takes me to the people around this item when it was last seen.   You've got a really good idea here.  I'm also thinking a squire could be anyone not necessarily a member of any of the 3 houses in question here...although I can't see Old Walder encouraging anything knightly or paying for an extra outside mouth to feed.   You're right about the Frey's ability to hold a grudge, particularly when they feel shamed.   Makes me wonder what else those rascals have been up to that we don't know about.  But, yah, I can completely see where all the squires could be Freys.   Thanks, now I get to widen my search of the names.   You've always been a good detective, Seams.   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ser Boros is 40 or 50 according to one of the Kettleblack brothers. If he's 40, he would have been 21 and if he's 50, he would have been 31. And the reason he looks ill because is because he is tasting all of Tommen's food. 

About the knights that the KotLT might have jousted against, Lord Walder Frey does have some interesting things to say about his sons.

Perwyn is the son of Rosby who was Lord Walder's 5th wife. Hosteen and Danwell might fit better for the tourney of Harrenhal, and Hosteen was unhorsed by a 15 year old Loras Tyrell. And I'm not comparing the skill of the KotLT to Loras's skills or anything like that. But if Hosteen was unhores by a 15 year old boy now, I imagine he couldn't have been that good during the tourney of Harrenhal.

Widow's Watch!   I'm so glad you jumped in again.  This is as much your conversation as anyone else who made Part 1 so interesting.   Gads!  You can even keep track of Freys--no small feat!   Your rationale for tapping Hosteen is a very good detection.  He never got great at knightly sport.   Let's put that in our pocket too, for reference.   

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And that's coz he ain't fit to be anything else!

But hey, he sticks to his vows and obeys his king blindly, so to many here he's a shining example!

@Curled Finger, I'm still on page 3 or 4 of the previous iteration! Dammit, I'm going to join in early this time around! And  for another excellent thread!

 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Same here!   

Having missed you both in Part 1, I'm just happy to see you!   There was some great stuff and this whole gang of us have so much to ask from professional Riverlanders.   

Round 1:  Indentities of the squires.   

[Curled Finger]

@Lady Dacey, 

I finally found the quote about the families buried side by side on the Quiet Isle.   Let's see if this rings any more bells...

"Our gravedigger knows no rest. Rivermen, westermen, northmen, all wash up here. Knights and knaves alike. We bury them side by side, Stark and Lannister, Blackwood and Bracken, Frey and Darry.   AFFC Brienne VI

Curious this says Frey and Darry.   Of course I reckon everyone might have a problem with the Freys.  Interesting...

 

[Curled Finger]

Ok, no other Blounts turn up in the search at all, but I did get to read every mention of him.  There I was thinking he is mentioned by Jamie when he reads from the White Book.   Nothing.  He's a mean tempered bully who is repeatedly shamed.  But he doesn't let go.   He stays.  Would a man of his character have chastised his squire?  He had no problem humiliating and beating Sansa--I really forgot what a jerk he is--

[The Fattest Leech]

@Curled Finger am I allowed to post my unconventional ideas on who I think could be the KotLT? I wanted to add this to your previous Crannogman thread, but time and work and lightening let that one slip by me

 

[Curled Finger]

29 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Curled Finger am I allowed to post my unconventional ideas on who I think could be the KotLT? I wanted to add this to your previous Crannogman thread, but time and work and lightening let that one slip by me

 

As you wish, Lady.   We love everything you throw out! 

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As you wish, Lady.   We love everything you throw out! 

I don't know that I would go that far

It is late here, so I will be brief and these are just the broad strokes of what I believe. Sorry if I am repeating anything here or from the previous thread, I am trying to play catch up.

I believe that it was possible Lyanna was skinchanging the horse that Howland rode. This fits the theme of the story on a few levels, including the joining of two things to make a something stronger. We see this ideal repeated in a few areas, including but not limited to, when Ygritte tells Jon a true man steals a girl from afar to strengthen the clan, Bran slipping in to Hodor to do certain tasks, and I have (almost) no doubt that Sansa and Arya will end up coming together to take down the giant of Baelish who destroyed their lives. 

I think there are enough clues in the story to show us that skinchanging/warging talents were cut off from the north when "good" Queen Alysanne went north and closed Nightfort and drew attention elsewhere with her shiny jewels. Just like dragons need their magics and riders, skinchangers and their familiars need each other, and the magics, to become "active". 

Also, it is possible that maesters are set in ridding the world of any magic or knowledge that takes away the maesters won power and "worth". The maesters, including dear old Luwin, deny that any such skinchanging talents even exist. This means there was no one to teach or guide Lyanna, and Jon Snow, and why Bran received his training through Jojen (so far), Arya thinks she is dreaming, and who knows what with Sansa and her probable bird connection. And we know from the Varamyr prologue that it is best to have someone with these talents teach and guide the younger generation in how to use their gift. Borroq is most likely going to be the one who helps Jon with his warg talent as Jon heals. 

Also, all of the "horseplay" Lyanna does with her tomboy antics, her being described as "half a centaur", and when Jaime says jousting is mostly about the horse, etc, etc. We have Elia Sand, aka Lady Lance, en route with Arianne as a new Lyanna stand-in to help drive this message across. There is constant attention drawn to the horses in the story. They have names, they have detailed descriptions, they have personalities. 

By the way, we also have Jon taking on some horse symbolism as well, especially in Dance as his character arc is about to make a major leap. This includes, but is not limited to, things like:

• Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?
• Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—"

  "—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly.

This would also allow Howland to tell the story in truth because he was the "booming" knight. Lyanna guided the horse to be sure and true, knowingly or not, and allowed Howland to stand up to the bullies himself. Together, Lyanna the little girl and Howland the little man, were stronger.

This still fits with Lyanna being a "knight of the laughing tree" symbol because of the double entendre of skinchanging and it being connected to the weirwoods/old gods. Think of how the tree in the godswood at Winterfell was "laughing" at the marriage of a fake Arya to a historic Stark traitor, Ramsay Bolton. This was Lyanna "laughing" at the mockery of a wedding of a girl (Arya) that is frequently compared to her. 

Remember, George is a hippy who grew up poor, and he loves the idea of the little guy taking down the big A-hole bullies. 

Now, let me get out of here before the best balloon popper in all of Westeros gets here and tries to pop the one balloon I have left 

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't know that I would go that far

It is late here, so I will be brief and these are just the broad strokes of what I believe. Sorry if I am repeating anything here or from the previous thread, I am trying to play catch up.

I believe that it was possible Lyanna was skinchanging the horse that Howland rode. This fits the theme of the story on a few levels, including the joining of two things to make a something stronger. We see this ideal repeated in a few areas, including but not limited to, when Ygritte tells Jon a true man steals a girl from afar to strengthen the clan, Bran slipping in to Hodor to do certain tasks, and I have (almost) no doubt that Sansa and Arya will end up coming together to take down the giant of Baelish who destroyed their lives. 

I think there are enough clues in the story to show us that skinchanging/warging talents were cut off from the north when "good" Queen Alysanne went north and closed Nightfort and drew attention elsewhere with her shiny jewels. Just like dragons need their magics and riders, skinchangers and their familiars need each other, and the magics, to become "active". 

Also, it is possible that maesters are set in ridding the world of any magic or knowledge that takes away the maesters won power and "worth". The maesters, including dear old Luwin, deny that any such skinchanging talents even exist. This means there was no one to teach or guide Lyanna, and Jon Snow, and why Bran received his training through Jojen (so far), Arya thinks she is dreaming, and who knows what with Sansa and her probable bird connection. And we know from the Varamyr prologue that it is best to have someone with these talents teach and guide the younger generation in how to use their gift. Borroq is most likely going to be the one who helps Jon with his warg talent as Jon heals. 

Also, all of the "horseplay" Lyanna does with her tomboy antics, her being described as "half a centaur", and when Jaime says jousting is mostly about the horse, etc, etc. We have Elia Sand, aka Lady Lance, en route with Arianne as a new Lyanna stand-in to help drive this message across. There is constant attention drawn to the horses in the story. They have names, they have detailed descriptions, they have personalities. 

By the way, we also have Jon taking on some horse symbolism as well, especially in Dance as his character arc is about to make a major leap. This includes, but is not limited to, things like:

• Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?
• Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—"

  "—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly.

This would also allow Howland to tell the story in truth because he was the "booming" knight. Lyanna guided the horse to be sure and true, knowingly or not, and allowed Howland to stand up to the bullies himself. Together, Lyanna the little girl and Howland the little man, were stronger.

This still fits with Lyanna being a "knight of the laughing tree" symbol because of the double entendre of skinchanging and it being connected to the weirwoods/old gods. Think of how the tree in the godswood at Winterfell was "laughing" at the marriage of a fake Arya to a historic Stark traitor, Ramsay Bolton. This was Lyanna "laughing" at the mockery of a wedding of a girl (Arya) that is frequently compared to her. 

Remember, George is a hippy who grew up poor, and he loves the idea of the little guy taking down the big A-hole bullies. 

Now, let me get out of here before the best balloon popper in all of Westeros gets here and tries to pop the one balloon I have left 

Leech, my friend, if you read anything of Part 1 you know we all have balloons!   As to balloon poppers--they can be a lot of fun in the right light, but be assured you are with friends here.  Wait until everyone gets here!   You know, I was expecting something earth shattering, but I don't think this is unthinkable at all.   Although I do have a soft spot for Benjen being the booming voice.   We read every line of this story and try to stay with it with amazingly little elaboration.  Still, it's clear Lyanna was outraged at the treatment our little Crannogman received. As you point out, among the smallest shreds of information we actually have about Lyanna, mention of her horsemanship certainly drives that point home.   We tend to base many of our ideas upon Ned and like it or not, he wasn't the exciting type.   Would he even acknowledge any display of magic he manifest? Nay.  He almost seems a foil to his older brother and sister.   We know Craster was already making his sacrifices 20 years ago and that the Wildlings know the Others exist.  Varamyr and Haggon are practicing skinchangers.  Howland Reed not only gained access to the Isle of Faces, but he stayed there for a lengthy period.  There is no reason the magic of the North would not be stretching and yawning at the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal.    Positively BITCHEN connection with the KOLT being the face laughing at the sham of a marriage at Winterfell.   

This is precisely why I love for you to join in...and I'm so glad you did.   Thanks, Leech. 

[The Fattest Leech]

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Leech, my friend, if you read anything of Part 1 you know we all have balloons!   As to balloon poppers--they can be a lot of fun in the right light, but be assured you are with friends here.  Wait until everyone gets here!   You know, I was expecting something earth shattering, but I don't think this is unthinkable at all.   Although I do have a soft spot for Benjen being the booming voice.   We read every line of this story and try to stay with it with amazingly little elaboration.  Still, it's clear Lyanna was outraged at the treatment our little Crannogman received. As you point out, among the smallest shreds of information we actually have about Lyanna, mention of her horsemanship certainly drives that point home.   We tend to base many of our ideas upon Ned and like it or not, he wasn't the exciting type.   Would he even acknowledge any display of magic he manifest? Nay.  He almost seems a foil to his older brother and sister.   We know Craster was already making his sacrifices 20 years ago and that the Wildlings know the Others exist.  Varamyr and Haggon are practicing skinchangers.  Howland Reed not only gained access to the Isle of Faces, but he stayed there for a lengthy period.  There is no reason the magic of the North would not be stretching and yawning at the time of the Tourney at Harrenhal.    Positively BITCHEN connection with the KOLT being the face laughing at the sham of a marriage at Winterfell.   

This is precisely why I love for you to join in...and I'm so glad you did.   Thanks, Leech. 

Thanks, Curled.

I am probably wrong about much of this, and that is ok with me

I will add one more thought because I need to get up early, but I think that IF Lyanna did have any skinchanging talents, someone like Howland would be more accepting of that because of his recent experiences, and also maybe he could have helped guide Lyanna a bit???

I will try better to follow along with this thread from now on.

[LynnS]

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No," said Bran. "I haven't. And if I have it doesn't matter. Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

"That's true." Meera walked with her shield on her back, pushing an occasional branch out of the way with her frog spear. Just when Bran began to think that she wasn't going to tell the story after all, she began, "Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people."

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

"I wish I could," Bran said plaintively. "When does he meet the tree knight?

"The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces."

I don't recall if Howland's magic was ever discussed.  He is able to weave words:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." She felt his fingers brushing back her hair. "Stay still. This will feel queer. You may be dizzy, but you must not move."

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

I'm not sure what Meera would consider a castle among the Crannogmen; but Howland can glamor them to appear and disappear.

I'm not sure what breathing mud and running on leaves could mean; but animals that breathe mud are amphibians and the sigil of House Reed is a lizard-lion.  So perhaps there is already an ability for skinchanging.

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A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

Summer got to his feet. "I don't need to see so far." Bran made a nervous smile. "I'm tired of talking about crows. Let's talk about wolves. Or lizard-lions. Have you ever hunted one, Meera? We don't have them here."

Meera plucked her frog spear out of the bushes. "They live in the water. In slow streams and deep swamps—"

Her brother interrupted. "Did you dream of a lizard-lion?"

"No," said Bran. "I told you, I don't want—"

I wonder what dreaming of lizard-lions means to Jojen and why he questions Bran about it.  In the context of Meera's story, it would seem that he makes a connection between lizard-lions and his father or the possibility that Howland can come in the form of a LL in your dreams.

Howland then goes to the Isle of Faces to learn more magic.  We're never told what magic but I'm guessing that Howland isn't as defenseless as he makes himself out to be in his story to Meera.  Skinchanging seems to be an ability ascribed to the 'green men' if Coldhands is representative of them.  Jojen makes that connection when he hears that Coldhands is riding an elk.  

There is also the fact that Howland kits himself out with a bronze shirt, shield and spear.  I'm guessing that he has been trained in fighting or defense; else why does he have such items on his person?   The Crannogmen are knows as bog devils; that doesn't sound very passive or defenseless to me.   

Although Howland shows up at the tourney with only his frog-spear; I doubt he left his shield and bronze shirt behind on the Isle of Faces. A bronze shirt can be concealed but a shield painted with the tree and laughing red face would have to be concealed.  This is the device representing the Old Gods on the Isle of Faces and I'm guessing Howland is their champion.

So I think Howland's story is a bit of an illusion and he wasn't merely curious about Harrenhall.  

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Edit:  The device of the KoLT always reminds me of Theon's vision of Bran as the wierwood tree:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

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A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

In the godswood the snow was still dissolving as it touched the earth. Steam rose off the hot pools, fragrant with the smell of moss and mud and decay. A warm fog hung in the air, turning the trees into sentinels, tall soldiers shrouded in cloaks of gloom. During daylight hours, the steamy wood was often full of northmen come to pray to the old gods, but at this hour Theon Greyjoy found he had it all to himself.

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

The above passages describing the Winterfell weirwood; Bran's face carved into the tree; knowing red eyes, carved red face and a great red mouth open is if to laugh would seem to point to Bran as the device on Howland's shield.   I'm not sure what 'talking to trees' means as far as the magic of the Crannogmen; but it does imply a two-way converstion.  We've only actually seen that with Ghost-Jon speaking to Tree-Bran.  There is a similarity between the branch touching Theon on the forehead and the branch touching Jon the same way.

So if Howland is able to see dreams of the future; is it possible that he talked to Tree-Bran.  I presume that once Bran has become part of the wiernet he would be able to speak to anyone who is still living with that ability.  

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I think there probably is a good chance that Lyanna is part of the weirnet given the symbolism around her.  The Song of Lya might point to Lyanna joining the Greeshka; the difference being that story isn't about two lovers Lya and Rob; but a brother and sister.

Their association with Howland for one thing is a separation from the God's Eye by one degree.  Lyanna is described with black hands which I think is a reference to Coldhands.  Ned dreams of Lyanna's statue weeping tears of blood and Sam sees a weirwood with a long face doing the same connects her to the weirwood on a certain level.  The place where Lyanna has been hidden is still a mystery; but who is better placed to hide her than Howland?

The three-eyed crow is still a mystery; but there is also a remote suggestion that the crow is female.  When Bran wakes from his coma dream; the crow screams and his vision of the crow resolves into a woman.  Lyanna also screams in Ned's fever dream.
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

The above quote is in the context of Bran's experience of another soul he encounters inside a crow.  What is interesting is that one inside the wood, these souls linger long.

So perhaps Lyanna too has gone into the wood and can still come to Bran or Ned in their dreams.  It would be an interesting twist if Ned was guiding and protecting Jon; while Lyanna was guiding and protecting Bran.

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So back to Howland the famous last words at the tower of joy: "Now it begins"... "Now it ends."

Doesn't everything really begin with Howland's appearance at the tourney and end with Howland at the ToJ?

What would have happened if he didn't show up at the Tourney?  I don't think it's just curiosity that sent Howland to the tourney.  I think he was certainly wise enough to know who to avoid if he so chose. The confrontation with the three squires put him squarely into the Stark camp where he befriended Ned and Lyanna.  We can suppose that Howland doesn't leave Ned's side until the end. He ensures that Ned survives and Bran is born, Jon is protected.

Since then, there has been no contact until Jojen and Meera show up again.  What is curious is that we don't know how Rob actually contacts Howland but has been given instructions on how to do so.  Since we've never been shown where the Crannogmen are located and they can't be contacted by raven; that implies an intermediary or a place where messages can be retrieved.   The Quiet Isle and wandering septons come to mind.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne V

Meribald was a septon without a sept, only one step up from a begging brother in the hierarchy of the Faith. There were hundreds like him, a ragged band whose humble task it was to trudge from one flyspeck of a village to the next, conducting holy services, performing marriages, and forgiving sins. Those he visited were expected to feed and shelter him, but most were as poor as he was, so Meribald could not linger in one place too long without causing hardship to his hosts. Kindly innkeeps would sometimes allow him to sleep in their kitchens or their stables, and there were septries and holdfasts and even a few castles where he knew he would be given hospitality. Where no such places were at hand, he slept beneath the trees or under hedges. "There are many fine hedges in the riverlands," Meribald said. "The old ones are the best. There's nothing beats a hundred-year-old hedge. Inside one of those a man can sleep as snug as at an inn, and with less fear of fleas."

 I'm very curious about this description:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Ser Creighton was lost. "Sparrows?"

"The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men." The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. "These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith. They served the Seven even unto death. Some starved, some were tortured. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested. Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish. It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven."

We know that Howland is humble and pious and that he will make an appearance in the next book.  My question is whether or not he has already made an appearance.

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He is a small, thin, hard-eyed, grey-haired man with a heavily lined face. Unlike previous High Septons, he does not wear rich robes or elaborate crowns of crystal and spun gold. Instead, he wears a simple white wool tunic that goes to his ankles. The man is truly devout to his faith and has an iron will.

Little is known of the history of the current High Septon. He claims to have been a septon who walked all over the realm. His heavily callused feet support this claim; they are black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. He often came upon villages that were too small to have their own septs and performed the traditional duties of a septon, such as naming newborn children, absolving sins and performing marriages.

Is the Faith of the Seven completely different from the Old Gods?  I don't think so, at least not according to Jaqen H'gar who swears on all of them.