Harrenhal As Seen Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes Part 2

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm seeing a growing set of allusions between Lyanna and Brienne

Not to get too off track but here are some comparisons:

- Lyanna Queen of Beauty and Brienne the Beauty (specifically Ned says that Lyanna was given the Queen of Beauty's laurel)

- Blue-eyed Brienne and a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death

- Brienne the queen (bee) who takes Jaimie from Cersei and Lyanna the queen (bee) who would have taken Robert from Cersei (if she died on the Quiet Isle).

- Lyanna giving a black rose to Ned and Brienne given a rose:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

Brienne lowered her sword. She felt a rush of sympathy for the boy. She remembered a day at Evenfall, and a young knight with a rose in his hand. He brought the rose to give to me. Or so her septa told her. All she had to do was welcome him to her father's castle. He was eighteen, with long red hair that tumbled to his shoulders. She was twelve, tightly laced into a stiff new gown, its bodice bright with garnets. The two of them were of a height, but she could not look him in the eye, nor say the simple words her septa had taught her. Ser Ronnet. I welcome you to my lord father's hall. It is good to look upon your face at last.

- Lyanna and Brienne the mystery knights

- Brienne in love with Renly a younger version of Robert. 

[Seams]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I do agree that Brienne is being set up at the true knight/perfect knight and she may end being the only one worthy or the dawn sword which is another connection to Howland's part in the death of Arthur.  

"This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. (AGoT, Eddard VII)

I think the allusion here is to the Stranger and the silents sisters as godswives.  It's possible that Lyanna disguised herself as a silent sister.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"A man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister," Ser Creighton was saying. "Even to lay hands upon one . . . it's said they are the Stranger's wives, and their female parts are cold and wet as ice." He glanced at Brienne. "Uh . . . beg pardon."

If she did, this may have something to do with Ned's vision of a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death:  

Silent Sisters would have prepared Lyanna's body to be sent to Winterfell instead of burial by the Silent Brothers.

I don't know about Lyanna disguising herself as a Silent Sister, although I suspect that group is up to a lot of intelligence gathering and keeping of secrets. I was thinking more in terms of a symbolic parallel. That Ned is the only person described as speaking to, and hearing words spoken by, Lyanna - she is, symbolically, a silent sister. Although I also debate this in my own head - I think she may have been both the Wolf Maid and the Wild Wolf at the Harrenhal dance, asking Ashara to dance with her shy brother. If Lyanna is the wild wolf, that would set up a weird unrequited love triangle (square?) involving Ned, Ashara, Ser Barristan and Lyanna acting as the go-between for Ned and Ashara.

But I digress. You made a point about silent sisters being the wife of the Stranger. I reply by noting that Ser Barristan IS a stranger:

When she got closer, she saw two knights kneeling before the queen, in armor so fine and gorgeous that it made her blink.

One knight wore an intricate suite of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard.

At first Sansa did not notice the third stranger. He did not kneel with the others. . . .

. . . Sansa realized that the two stranger knights were looking down on her and Lady, swords in their hands, and then she was frightened again and ashamed. Tears filled her eyes.

AGoT, Sansa I

Ser Barristan, Renly and Ser Illyn are introduced as the three strangers (the stranger has three heads?). As I was retyping that excerpt, I noticed that Sansa describes Ser Barristan in glowing terms she later uses to describe the rejuvenating snowfall at the Eyrie. And, because my mind is like a Rube Goldberg machine with a little ball that roles from one literary contraption to the next, this led me to recall that the Eyrie is built out of white marble that was hauled to the site from - ta da! - Tarth. The Eyrie is wearing borrowed armor. Borrowed from Brienne's home. And Ser Barriston was present when Ser Hugh's armor (probably paid for by Ned, after Hugh's death) was sent back to the Vale.

GRRM told us that disparate threads would start to come together as the books reach their conclusion, and I feel as if that is borne out in the subtext.

• Lyanna was a "silent sister".
• Ser Barristan is a "stranger".
• Lyanna is Ser Barristan's "wife"?
• Ser Hugh of the Vale may symbolize the mother direwolf with the antler in her throat. (See the link in my previous comment for the background on this.)
• The mother direwolf also symbolized Lyanna, who was probably the mother of Jon Snow.
• Jon Snow is the only one who can hear the direwolf Ghost.
• Ghost is a silent sister / brother. I suspect that a part of Lyanna or a symbolic Lyanna is embodied by Ghost - maybe her newest "Knight of the Laughing Tree" incarnation.

But also Ser Barristan is linked to Brienne through all that perfect knight / true knight stuff in her storyline. Naturally, she is also linked to Renly, the second "stranger knight," who died in her arms and whose sword she took. So maybe she became the second stranger knight when she picked up Renly's sword? And now she is traveling with mini-Payne (Podrick), so the third stranger may have already been (symbolically) reunited with her . . .

When she is beginning her quest and immediately encounters the hedge knights Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer, Brienne makes a point of reminding the reader that her armor, shield and money all came from Jaime (as well as the magical sword). So there's that borrowed armor motif yet again. In this Harrenhal thread, it's also interesting to note that her shield was the bat shield of House Lothston. Ser Illifer says that his ancestor killed the last Lothston. After calling Brienne a liar for carrying someone else's sigil and accusing her of being a kingslayer for Renly's death, he hears her oath that she did not kill Renly and concludes by saying that the gods will sort it out. That conclusion is what followers of the seven say when someone dies: may the Father judge her justly. So Brienne, carrying the shield of a dead house, may have a symbolic death at the dagger point of Ser Illifer. Death seems like a prerequisite for the job description of stranger, don't you think?

[Seams]

 

Those parallels are all terrific, @LynnS! The plot thickens.

And this excerpt is particularly wonderful if we are supposed to see Brienne being prepared to be the Stranger or the wife of the Stranger:

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

Brienne lowered her sword. She felt a rush of sympathy for the boy. She remembered a day at Evenfall, and a young knight with a rose in his hand. He brought the rose to give to me. Or so her septa told her. All she had to do was welcome him to her father's castle. He was eighteen, with long red hair that tumbled to his shoulders. She was twelve, tightly laced into a stiff new gown, its bodice bright with garnets. The two of them were of a height, but she could not look him in the eye, nor say the simple words her septa had taught her. Ser Ronnet. I welcome you to my lord father's hall. It is good to look upon your face at last.

Ned looks at a dead face and then tells us that it is bad to look on the face of death:

In the pale dawn light, the young knight looked as though he were sleeping. He had not been handsome, but death had smoothed his rough-hewn features and the silent sisters had dressed him in his best velvet tunic, with a high collar to cover the ruin the lance had made of his throat. Eddard Stark looked at his face, and wondered if it had been for his sake that the boy had died. Slain by a Lannister bannerman before Ned could speak to him; could that be mere happenstance? He supposed he would never know.

...

"This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. (AGoT, Eddard VII)

I'm guessing that the line from Brienne to Ronnet Connington is GRRM's way of foreshadowing something about the future of Ser Ronnet. And it will have to do with death.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Seams said:

Those parallels are all terrific, @LynnS! The plot thickens.

And this excerpt is particularly wonderful if we are supposed to see Brienne being prepared to be the Stranger or the wife of the Stranger:

Ned looks at a dead face and then tells us that it is bad to look on the face of death:

In the pale dawn light, the young knight looked as though he were sleeping. He had not been handsome, but death had smoothed his rough-hewn features and the silent sisters had dressed him in his best velvet tunic, with a high collar to cover the ruin the lance had made of his throat. Eddard Stark looked at his face, and wondered if it had been for his sake that the boy had died. Slain by a Lannister bannerman before Ned could speak to him; could that be mere happenstance? He supposed he would never know.

...

"This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. (AGoT, Eddard VII)

I'm guessing that the line from Brienne to Ronnet Connington is GRRM's way of foreshadowing something about the future of Ser Ronnet. And it will have to do with death.

I'm still not sure that Lyanna was the KoLT but she is certainly a true knight when she takes on the three squires. I'm not sure what Ned meant by Lyanna having a little of the wolf blood; but I think this is a reference to her temper when roused.  If Lyanna was anything, she was gentle like Lady, at least in Ned's mind.

If it was necessary for Lyanna to disappear at some point; the Silent Sister disguise is something we've seen with Lady Ashera as well.  She wouldn't be out of place as a Silent Sister on the Quiet Isle where everyone's tongues are tied.  LOL She would be easy to overlook if her face was veiled and there is a strong taboo about manhandling the Silent Sisters.

[Asshai Backward]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Welcome, @Asshai Backward--thank you for joining in and sharing your thoughts.   

See how easy it is to just interrupt the civilized folks?   Now this idea of yours that the COFT/Crannogmen/Green Men could be intermediaries between opposing forces (as the 1st men and COTF were once) is very interesting.  Surely the COTF have got some serious power on their side, elemental and mental.  I'm thinking of the Pact itself here.  If the COTF and 1st Men were the warring champions, would the COTF or more specifically the powers of earth and ice be the only intermediaries?  Bringing the Warlocks up is a very interesting addition here and I do expect their specific powers to become apparent in TWOW.  Let's establish the balance between the elements to really round this idea of yours out.    Ball is yours, run with it!   

I'm struggling with precisely what the green men are.  I think it's possible they may be representatives of the pact signers--1st Men and COTF.  I really like where our friend @Seams went with their potential part in an intelligence network.    I mean, come on, they're on an island full of trees with seeing faces!   

Thanks for the welcome.  This continued thread has been a treat to read (along with the "For the Watch thread,) and through them, I have not only enhanced my appreciation for the novels, but I've also gotten to "know" a few posters here--put the face to the name, as it were.  However, had I known I would be assigned homework, I'd have remained a lurker...

I am starting to wonder how innocent Howland is in all of this--perhaps he was on a mission put forth to him on the Isle; to bring Ice and Fire together.  Getting waylaid by the squires was but a ruse--a situation a crafty crannogman like himself might easily have avoided.  His goal was to get Rhaegar to notice and appreciate Lyanna (presuming she was the KotLT, of course,) and it worked.

Which makes me muse something else--going back to the last part of the thread, where it was posited that Mance might have been the black brother at the tourney--I've been wondering for a while where Mance happened to come across Val and Dalla; I for one don't believe they just happened to be living in the woods north of the wall all of their lives, and I've seen plenty of ideas about where they might be from.  How about they are from the Isle of Faces?  Has an Avalon-ey feel to it, and it would support my hope that if any "body" is going to revive Jon (if he needs reviving) it will be Val and not Melisandre.  Seems as though if there were some sort of hi jinx emanating from the Isle, a visit from Mance at the beginning of the story wouldn't be out of the question--presuming, as I do, that Mance plays a bigger role in all of this than some suspect.

How, you might ask, did Mance come across the Isle of Faces so far from Winterfell on that journey?  He travelled by ship from Hardhome to the Saltpans, perhaps.  Mance is quite capable, but in the one scene we get of wildlings actually scaling the wall, it doesn't come across as safe or easy.  Pirate ship seems much more likely.  But I am falling off into fan fiction, I fear.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Asshai Backward said:

Thanks for the welcome.  This continued thread has been a treat to read (along with the "For the Watch thread,) and through them, I have not only enhanced my appreciation for the novels, but I've also gotten to "know" a few posters here--put the face to the name, as it were.  However, had I known I would be assigned homework, I'd have remained a lurker...

Don't be like that, homework is good, and @Curled Finger is a pretty easygoing and welcoming teacher! On top of being an awesome host!

 

Quote

I am starting to wonder how innocent Howland is in all of this--perhaps he was on a mission put forth to him on the Isle; to bring Ice and Fire together.  Getting waylaid by the squires was but a ruse--a situation a crafty crannogman like himself might easily have avoided.  His goal was to get Rhaegar to notice and appreciate Lyanna (presuming she was the KotLT, of course,) and it worked.

Not sure about this. Possible, sure, but... dunno. I do think the Green Men and the CotF are all about balance, and nature taking its course. So mayhaps bringing ice and fire together is a thing. I'm going to fail miserably now trying to explain my thoughts on this, but bear w/ me. All these ice wights and fire wights, and people being bring back from death? Nope, in my head canon the CotF would not be cool w/ any of that. The CotF represent nature, and it's completely unnatural for someone to come back from death. And before anyone jumps in claiming they're not "cuddly tree huggers", let me say, no, indeed they are not. But "cuddly tree huggers" do not represent nature, unless we're talking a Disney film w/ Snow White prancing around in a beautiful flowery meadow, being followed by cute bunny rabbits and cuter squirrels. Nature is beautiful but also scary and terrible, and harsh, and unforgiving, and ruthless. So, yes, pretty flowery meadows but also tsunamis and hurricanes and earthquakes. 

So, I like the idea of "bringing ice and fire together", especially when the meaning is restoring balance. The fact that both the Red Rahloorists and the WWs can bring the dead back means the world is out of whack and its balance must be restored. 

Quote

Which makes me muse something else--going back to the last part of the thread, where it was posited that Mance might have been the black brother at the tourney--I've been wondering for a while where Mance happened to come across Val and Dalla; I for one don't believe they just happened to be living in the woods north of the wall all of their lives, and I've seen plenty of ideas about where they might be from.  How about they are from the Isle of Faces?

The thought had never occurred to me... it's possible, but I'd feel a bit cheated, b/c there are no hints or clues pointing to that. A few yrs ago someone - @Bran Vras? - came up w/ the idea that Val and Dalla are moonsingers... Also very interesting, but not sure what to make of it. Iirc, Martin said something about not having any more (pertinent) info on the moonsigers planned, so... I lean towards they are what they appear to be, two wildling women who are "sisters" even if they're not sisters by blood.

 

Quote

Has an Avalon-ey feel to it, and it would support my hope that if any "body" is going to revive Jon (if he needs reviving) it will be Val and not Melisandre.  Seems as though if there were some sort of hi jinx emanating from the Isle, a visit from Mance at the beginning of the story wouldn't be out of the question--presuming, as I do, that Mance plays a bigger role in all of this than some suspect.

It does have an "Avalon-y" feel to it!

IMHO Jon will not need reviving. Not truly. His body will need time to recover, but he won't die die, like Ned or Cat or Robb have died.

 

Quote

How, you might ask, did Mance come across the Isle of Faces so far from Winterfell on that journey?  He travelled by ship from Hardhome to the Saltpans, perhaps.  Mance is quite capable, but in the one scene we get of wildlings actually scaling the wall, it doesn't come across as safe or easy.  Pirate ship seems much more likely.  But I am falling off into fan fiction, I fear.

Could be, but no hints pointing that way. And Hardhome has been shunned since the disaster, some (someone pls correct me here) 600 yrs ago. Very unlikely that he would have taken a ship from HH to the Saltpans, but Eastwatch is totally doable. 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

All these ice wights and fire wights, and people being bring back from death? Nope, in my head canon the CotF would not be cool w/ any of that. The CotF represent nature, and it's completely unnatural for someone to come back from death. And before anyone jumps in claiming they're not "cuddly tree huggers", let me say, no, indeed they are not. But "cuddly tree huggers" do not represent nature, unless we're talking a Disney film w/ Snow White prancing around in a beautiful flowery meadow, being followed by cute bunny rabbits and cuter squirrels. Nature is beautiful but also scary and terrible, and harsh, and unforgiving, and ruthless. So, yes, pretty flowery meadows but also tsunamis and hurricanes and earthquakes. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, I like the idea of "bringing ice and fire together", especially when the meaning is restoring balance. The fact that both the Red Rahloorists and the WWs can bring the dead back means the world is out of whack and its balance must be restored. 

Don't forget the dragons.

I like the idea that the crannogmen have a part to play in bringing balance back to the world. They live between the north and the south, and they are very connected with nature. According to the word book the last children of the forest took shelter between the crannogs of the Neck. It's curious that, if we subscribe to that theory, Howland, Our Little Crannogman, may have been essencial to pivoting Lyanna's and Rhaegar's alleged relationship - unknowingly helping to bring Ice and Fire together at Harrenhal. 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Don't forget the dragons.

I didn't. Red Rahloorists and dragons? Same difference!

(In the sense of a fire side and an ice side, and balance being what's missing)

12 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I like the idea that the crannogmen have a part to play in bringing balance back to the world. They live between the north and the south, and they are very connected with nature. According to the word book the last children of the forest took shelter between the crannogs of the Neck. It's curious that, if we subscribe to that theory, Howland, Our Little Crannogman, may have been essencial to pivoting Lyanna's and Rhaegar's alleged relationship - unknowingly helping to bring Ice and Fire together at Harrenhal. 

Or mayhaps not so unknowingly!

 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Asshai Backward said:

Thanks for the welcome.  This continued thread has been a treat to read (along with the "For the Watch thread,) and through them, I have not only enhanced my appreciation for the novels, but I've also gotten to "know" a few posters here--put the face to the name, as it were.  However, had I known I would be assigned homework, I'd have remained a lurker...

I am starting to wonder how innocent Howland is in all of this--perhaps he was on a mission put forth to him on the Isle; to bring Ice and Fire together.  Getting waylaid by the squires was but a ruse--a situation a crafty crannogman like himself might easily have avoided.  His goal was to get Rhaegar to notice and appreciate Lyanna (presuming she was the KotLT, of course,) and it worked.

Which makes me muse something else--going back to the last part of the thread, where it was posited that Mance might have been the black brother at the tourney--I've been wondering for a while where Mance happened to come across Val and Dalla; I for one don't believe they just happened to be living in the woods north of the wall all of their lives, and I've seen plenty of ideas about where they might be from.  How about they are from the Isle of Faces?  Has an Avalon-ey feel to it, and it would support my hope that if any "body" is going to revive Jon (if he needs reviving) it will be Val and not Melisandre.  Seems as though if there were some sort of hi jinx emanating from the Isle, a visit from Mance at the beginning of the story wouldn't be out of the question--presuming, as I do, that Mance plays a bigger role in all of this than some suspect.

How, you might ask, did Mance come across the Isle of Faces so far from Winterfell on that journey?  He travelled by ship from Hardhome to the Saltpans, perhaps.  Mance is quite capable, but in the one scene we get of wildlings actually scaling the wall, it doesn't come across as safe or easy.  Pirate ship seems much more likely.  But I am falling off into fan fiction, I fear.

My friend, if this book doesn't make you stop and think about things you had no idea you had thoughts about what is the point of lurking?  Aside, I love seeing what new posters think and feel about things.    I was reading For the Watch, too.   It's a long thread but I really enjoyed all the opposing ideas.   We are in the company of some posters I adore here--I dig it when @LynnS and @Seams get going.   @PrettyPig and a few other posters I met in Harrenhal 1 and a Brienne topic were the lurkers I was targeting in the OP because they waited so long to pop in and dazzle us.  I've been fairly quiet here because I pretty much fear LynnS and Seams will tie me up and gag me if I ask one more time for clarification--it's usually better when I just read and watch them work it all out.   

I don't consider ideas to be fan fiction.   We aren't ending a story.   We are studying a mystery.  We are a book club and this is our most excellent book!  Few things in ASOIAF are as mysterious as our little Crannogman and the episodes he reports through Meera are fraught with stabs at bigger stories.   You may not be wrong at all about HR working very hard to attract Rhaegar to Lyanna.   Further, he could have been there to witness all the crazy conspiracies that took place and tried to take place at Harrenhal.  Maybe he actually knew where Rhaegar eventually stowed Lyanna.  I put nothing past him.  

Part 1 was the 1st time I ever read Mance could have been the Black Brother at the tourney.   This is the juicy thought provoking stuff you get when you talk to people.  Even if this Black Brother wasn't Mance the method of travel you laid out is totally plausible.    @The Fattest Leech is a big Val fan so she would know better than I regarding your thoughts on these 2 suspicious sisters.   They sure don't seem like regular Wildlings, do they?  

I only began pondering the green men may walk among the people of Westeros today.   Probably as a result of your post.  I really would like to understand them better--anything, really.   The characters we've read were allowed access to the Isle of Faces is mind boggling to me and I wonder why?   Adam Velaryon of all people?   During the Dance of Dragons?   I can't begin to imagine why.  

Side note:   My friend who does not post and I began searching for wizards, knights, lords and pirates earlier today.   If you've got pirates in the Riverlands by all means please let me know!

Ah that was a nice exercise, Asshai Backward.   Jump in wherever you have something to say, Man.    I'm pleased you are enjoying yourself.   

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Don't be like that, homework is good, and @Curled Finger is a pretty easygoing and welcoming teacher! On top of being an awesome host!

Not sure about this. Possible, sure, but... dunno. I do think the Green Men and the CotF are all about balance, and nature taking its course. So mayhaps bringing ice and fire together is a thing. I'm going to fail miserably now trying to explain my thoughts on this, but bear w/ me. All these ice wights and fire wights, and people being bring back from death? Nope, in my head canon the CotF would not be cool w/ any of that. The CotF represent nature, and it's completely unnatural for someone to come back from death. And before anyone jumps in claiming they're not "cuddly tree huggers", let me say, no, indeed they are not. But "cuddly tree huggers" do not represent nature, unless we're talking a Disney film w/ Snow White prancing around in a beautiful flowery meadow, being followed by cute bunny rabbits and cuter squirrels. Nature is beautiful but also scary and terrible, and harsh, and unforgiving, and ruthless. So, yes, pretty flowery meadows but also tsunamis and hurricanes and earthquakes. 

So, I like the idea of "bringing ice and fire together", especially when the meaning is restoring balance. The fact that both the Red Rahloorists and the WWs can bring the dead back means the world is out of whack and its balance must be restored. 

The thought had never occurred to me... it's possible, but I'd feel a bit cheated, b/c there are no hints or clues pointing to that. A few yrs ago someone - @Bran Vras? - came up w/ the idea that Val and Dalla are moonsingers... Also very interesting, but not sure what to make of it. Iirc, Martin said something about not having any more (pertinent) info on the moonsigers planned, so... I lean towards they are what they appear to be, two wildling women who are "sisters" even if they're not sisters by blood.

 

It does have an "Avalon-y" feel to it!

IMHO Jon will not need reviving. Not truly. His body will need time to recover, but he won't die die, like Ned or Cat or Robb have died.

 

Could be, but no hints pointing that way. And Hardhome has been shunned since the disaster, some (someone pls correct me here) 600 yrs ago. Very unlikely that he would have taken a ship from HH to the Saltpans, but Eastwatch is totally doable. 

I was rereading your post and reveling in the pure geekiness of our fandom.  How long have you been at this ASOIAF, Lady?  Gads, Bran Vras!   I miss those posts and essays.  

Not sure which disaster at Harrenhal you mean.   I remember it took 40 years to build (Oh please, God, don't let that be the Eyrie...) but it was made a brand new ruin by Aegon and the dragons during the conquest.  I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the COTF and perhaps the green men by association.  Nature is both magnificent and horrible.  

I'm following YOUR lead in welcoming folks to the forum.   You're a class act.   Everyone should feel welcome, particularly the new folks.  Disagreement doesn't have to be a fight.  

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

Not to get too off track but here are some comparisons:

- Lyanna Queen of Beauty and Brienne the Beauty (specifically Ned says that Lyanna was given the Queen of Beauty's laurel)

- Blue-eyed Brienne and a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death

- Brienne the queen (bee) who takes Jaimie from Cersei and Lyanna the queen (bee) who would have taken Robert from Cersei (if she died on the Quiet Isle).

- Lyanna giving a black rose to Ned and Brienne given a rose:

- Lyanna and Brienne the mystery knights

- Brienne in love with Renly a younger version of Robert. 

How is talking about Brienne ever getting off track in this group?   I promise.  That's the only question! 

[Curled Finger]

On 1/29/2018 at 1:49 PM, PrettyPig said:

I am writing an essay right now on this very thing....and what I’m finding may surprise people.   Because....

 

...this may play a big part in it.   Or not, as the case may be.  I think what they asked for may not have been what they got, or at least not the version they were expecting.

When may we expect to see this essay?  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Don't forget the dragons.

I like the idea that the crannogmen have a part to play in bringing balance back to the world. They live between the north and the south, and they are very connected with nature. According to the word book the last children of the forest took shelter between the crannogs of the Neck. It's curious that, if we subscribe to that theory, Howland, Our Little Crannogman, may have been essencial to pivoting Lyanna's and Rhaegar's alleged relationship - unknowingly helping to bring Ice and Fire together at Harrenhal. 

It's a mystery, Lady D.  It's becoming clear to me at least, that our little Crannogman has powers we don't understand, whether true magic or disposition or outlook, he's got some sort of power.   Look at all the hate threads dedicated to small children, Bran and Arya.  Somehow, Howland Reed is not hated by and large, but does seem to be endeared to the reader.  I think he was written that way.   We are supposed to like OLC.  But why?  We are willing to give him access to magic and wisdom I wouldn't give Melisandre.  

The way things are written in ASOIAF are just on my mind quite a bit.   You got a little of that in your own fine maiden topic recently with my questions about why Arya is in a relationship with the strange Faceless Men.   We are supposed to figure out who this Mystery Knight at Harrenhal was.   We are supposed to understand there was far more going on than met the eye.  We get it.  The me part of we is really pondering the events so many of our characters encounter and how those events shape the story overall.   I do believe it's supposed to be all about balance even if I don't really grasp just 2 opposing elements.  I think I'm trying to level up!   

[The Fattest Leech]

 

34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

.    @The Fattest Leech is a big Val fan so she would know better than I regarding your thoughts on these 2 suspicious sisters.   They sure don't seem like regular Wildlings, do they?

  

Yes, yes Leech is a big fan of Val. Yes she is. 

Damn, I meant to keep that a secret. 

[PrettyPig]

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 @PrettyPig and a few other posters I met in Harrenhal 1 and a Brienne topic were the lurkers I was targeting in the OP because they waited so long to pop in and dazzle us. 

Many thanks, good ser!   *curtsies*    I continue to read along and am seeing some phenomenal ideas here, but haven't had time/opportunity to respond to much.    The danger of reading through great threads with smart people is that the replies trigger so many spinoff ideas in my head - a thousand thoughts and one start dancing around my head and I go off on tangents.

Such as...

18 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

When may we expect to see this essay?  

Working on it right now!     And of course in your post above you mentioned it taking 40 years to build Harrenhal, which I now see also may be relevant to my topic, and ALSO ties into @Lady Dacey's wonderful thread on the religion of the Faceless men, and now I'm compelled to work that in somewhere as well because it all goes together.   Gaaaah!

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Many thanks, good ser!   *curtsies*    I continue to read along and am seeing some phenomenal ideas here, but haven't had time/opportunity to respond to much.    The danger of reading through great threads with smart people is that the replies trigger so many spinoff ideas in my head - a thousand thoughts and one start dancing around my head and I go off on tangents.

Such as...

Working on it right now!     And of course in your post above you mentioned it taking 40 years to build Harrenhal, which I now see also may be relevant to my topic, and ALSO ties into @Lady Dacey's wonderful thread on the religion of the Faceless men, and now I'm compelled to work that in somewhere as well because it all goes together.   Gaaaah!

Face it, Pretty, you've got geekscale like all the rest of us!   You are a wonderful addition to any conversation.  I'm reading through Lady D's topic right now--getting close to all the new posts there.   It does all go together.  Curled Finger attempts a bow and falls on face...

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Not sure which disaster at Harrenhal you mean. 

I was talking about Hardhome, not Harrenhal!

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Don't forget the dragons.

I like the idea that the crannogmen have a part to play in bringing balance back to the world. They live between the north and the south, and they are very connected with nature. According to the word book the last children of the forest took shelter between the crannogs of the Neck. It's curious that, if we subscribe to that theory, Howland, Our Little Crannogman, may have been essencial to pivoting Lyanna's and Rhaegar's alleged relationship - unknowingly helping to bring Ice and Fire together at Harrenhal. 

I'm not sure that Howland is there to bring ice and fire bloodlines together.  He does pay the most attention to two women: Lyanna and Ashera. I think these two are the mothers of ice and fire: Jon and Dany.  There are two moons in the sky once again. Jon is the son of winter(fell) rather than the son of ice and fire.  

Howland is most likely a newly minted green man from the Isle of Faces and it is the balance between ice and fire that is most likely their concern.  There is a hint of that in the mix-up of the seasons with a false spring.  Something has come out of balance in the seasons and that is the first hint of it. 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was talking about Hardhome, not Harrenhal!

 

Ah geez, sorry about that.  At least I had the right 1st letter!  Now the word disaster makes perfect sense!   

[Curled Finger]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that Howland is there to bring ice and fire bloodlines together.  He does pay the most attention to two women: Lyanna and Ashera. I think these two are the mothers of ice and fire: Jon and Dany.  There are two moons in the sky once again. Jon is the son of winter(fell) rather than the son of ice and fire.  

Howland is most likely a newly minted green man from the Isle of Faces and it is the balance between ice and fire that is most likely their concern.  There is a hint of that in the mix-up of the seasons with a false spring.  Something has come out of balance in the seasons and that is the first hint of it. 

You tied that up very nicely.   That OLC was there to note the women never occurred to me.   This deal with the green men not being stuck on the IOF is new to me, but I like it.   A newly minted green man...that's very interesting and still so new.  I reckon that will drive me nuts for a week while I try to identify other characters who may share this distinction.   All that False Spring reference has to mean something.   I couldn't put my finger on it.    I always feel so smart when we share an idea or feeling.  Thankee, Sai!