Cannibalism and Guest Rights

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Guest rights is an ancient custom.  But it is not against the law to break guest rights.  I will grant you that it is a cherished custom but not one that is expressly prohibited by the king's laws.

Cannibalism is murder.  I would assume it is punishable by law since Stannis roasted his soldiers for eating the dead. 

Wayman Manderly's crimes is punishable by law and it is an affront to the gods.  What Wayman Manderly did is much, much worse than the violation of guest rights. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

8 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Cannibalism is murder.

Not necessarily, one can commit cannibalism without committing murder. I believe the word for those folks is "ghouls."

10 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Wayman Manderly's crimes is punishable by law

 Only if someone can prove he did it. I believe the evidence has been eaten.

I believe what really pissed off Wayman was not only the Freys breaking Guest Right but also because the Frey's had the audacity to claim they killed Robb Stark because he turned into a werewolf and murdered his son Wendel. That was really adding insult to injury.

[Lord Lannister]

The morality of cannibalism can be a gray area. There is a huge difference between gleefully serving up human remains to your enemies to unknowingly eat for revenge and reluctantly eating your comrade who could've died of starvation or the cold, so you don't die. One is murder, the other is the last resort for survival.

[Light a wight tonight]

What is your point? The Freys were no longer guests when they were killed. That is well established. They were killed to expunge the insults they showered on Manderly while they were his guests. A medieval lord can't allow that sort of behavior to go unavenged. Cannibalism? Prove it. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Guest rights is an ancient custom.  But it is not against the law to break guest rights.  I will grant you that it is a cherished custom but not one that is expressly prohibited by the king's laws.

It's not against the law to break guest right, but pretty much anything you can do to break guest right is a breach of the law. I guess insulting the host or your guest isn't breaking the law, but pretty much anything else is going to be the medieval equivalent of assault, battery, aggravated assault, attempted murder, murder, et al. What the Freys did was very much against the laws of god and men.

 

 

[Brannis the Mannis]

I guess Roose, Walda, and Hosteen are to be condemned to death as well then, seeing how they committed the unspeakable crime of cannibalism. How sad. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's not against the law to break guest right, but pretty much anything you can do to break guest right is a breach of the law. I guess insulting the host or your guest isn't breaking the law, but pretty much anything else is going to be the medieval equivalent of assault, battery, aggravated assault, attempted murder, murder, et al. What the Freys did was very much against the laws of god and men.

 

 

True. You can be a dick to your guest without having violated guest right. For example Craster was very sour toward the black brothers when they took up lodging with him; but Jeor Mormont never claims the guy had violated the age-old compact.

Because he'd never tried to act against the crows. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

59 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

I guess Roose, Walda, and Hosteen are to be condemned to death as well then, seeing how they committed the unspeakable crime of cannibalism. How sad. 

Poor Walda. Manderly really can be as vengeful prick as Frey.

I'm 90% sure Roose has eaten people before or was curious about it so I'm sure he won't mind. 

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

3 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Guest rights is an ancient custom.  But it is not against the law to break guest rights.  I will grant you that it is a cherished custom but not one that is expressly prohibited by the king's laws.

I'm not so sure this is true. I'm curious as to what makes you believe that breaking guest rights, often referred to in conjunction with the laws of hospitality, are not prohibited by the King's laws.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

Quote

 

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?"

 

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI

Quote

 

"I'm more wet than hungry . . ."

"Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof."

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North

Quote

 

One notable custom that the Northmen hold dearer than any other is guest right, the tradition of hospitality by which a man may offer no harm to a guest beneath his roof, nor a guest to his host. The Andals held to something like it as well, but it looms less large in southron minds. In his text Justice and Injustice in the North: Judgments of Three Stark Lords, Maester Egbert notes that crimes in the North in which guest right was violated were rare but were invariably treated as harshly as the direst of treasons. Only kinslaying is deemed as sinful as the violations of these laws of hospitality.

 

 

[Blackwater Revenant]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

For example Craster was very sour toward the black brothers when they took up lodging with him; but Jeor Mormont never claims the guy had violated the age-old compact.

Because he'd never tried to act against the crows

That's actually incorrect. Jeor had erroneously assessed the situation when he thought that his men broke guest rights. Craster in fact was the one to break the laws of hospitality when he attempted to attack Clubfoot Karl.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

Quote

"Who calls me bastard?" Craster roared, sweeping platter and meat and wine cups from the table with his left hand while lifting the axe with his right...

...Craster moved quicker than Sam would have believed possible, vaulting across the table with axe in hand. A woman screamed, Garth Greenaway and Orphan Oss drew knives, Karl stumbled back and tripped over Ser Byam lying wounded on the floor. One instant Craster was coming after him spitting curses. The next he was spitting blood. Dirk had grabbed him by the hair, yanked his head back, and opened his throat ear to ear with one long slash. Then he gave him a rough shove, and the wildling fell forward, crashing face first across Ser Byam. Byam screamed in agony as Crasterdrowned in his own blood, the axe slipping from his fingers. Two of Craster's wives were wailing, a third cursed, a fourth flew at Sweet Donnel and tried to scratch his eyes out. He knocked her to the floor. The Lord Commander stood over Craster's corpse, dark with anger. "The gods will curse us," he cried. "There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man's hall. By all the laws of the hearth, we—"

Also, another example of guest rights being referred to as a law, and the breaking of such as a crime.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Wayman Manderly's crimes is punishable by law and it is an affront to the gods. 

No it is not. His gift to the Freys  was the formal end to the guest right. He never harmed them in his home. After they left his home and protection, he had them killed and made into pies. That is Vengeance, something that the gods, old and new respected. The cannibalism thing is just symbolic. Although it would be cold AF if whoever Wyman had do the actual killings said something to them like "And after you die, you will be made into food and fed to all your Frey brothers in Winterfell along with the cursed Boltons!"  

[Blackwater Revenant]

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No it is not. His gift to the Freys  was the formal end to the guest right. He never harmed them in his home. After they left his home and protection, he had them killed and made into pies. That is Vengeance, something that the gods, old and new respected.

Indeed.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North

Quote

In the North, they tell the tale of the Rat Cook, who served an Andal king—identified by some as King Tywell II of the Rock, and by others as King Oswell I of the Vale and Mountain—the flesh of the king's own son, baked into a pie. For this, he was punished by being turned into a monstrous rat that ate its own young. Yet the punishment was incurred not for killing the king's son, or for feeding him to the king, but for the breaking of guest right.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

Quote

 

When the flames were blazing nicely Meera put the fish on. At least it's not a meat pie. The Rat Cook had cooked the son of the Andal king in a big pie with onions, carrots, mushrooms, lots of pepper and salt, a rasher of bacon, and a dark red Dornish wine. Then he served him to his father, who praised the taste and had a second slice. Afterward the gods transformed the cook into a monstrous white rat who could only eat his own young. He had roamed the Nightfort ever since, devouring his children, but still his hunger was not sated. "It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guestbeneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive."

 

[zandru]

12 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Wayman Manderly's crimes is punishable by law and it is an affront to the gods.  What Wayman Manderly did is much, much worse than the violation of guest rights. 

Well, Lothar would say that... I'm of the same opinion as

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No it is not. His gift to the Freys  was the formal end to the guest right. He never harmed them in his home. After they left his home and protection, he had them killed and made into pies. That is Vengeance, something that the gods, old and new respected. [my emphasis]

As "guest right" is a custom with the force of law in the north (apparently less so, or not at all south of the Neck), so is the right to revenge. We may talk about "the king's laws", not to mention any "laws" set forth by the assorted lords major and minor, but Westeros really is NOT a society of laws, but of men. Where are the courts? Where are the police? In Westeros, custom and usage reign supreme. In addition to that is whatever the sitting monarch decrees - assuming he will enforce it.

[The Fattest Leech]

This thread is funny 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

s "guest right" is a custom with the force of law in the north (apparently less so, or not at all south of the Neck), so is the right to revenge. We may talk about "the king's laws", not to mention any "laws" set forth by the assorted lords major and minor, but Westeros really is NOT a society of laws, but of men. Where are the courts? Where are the police? In Westeros, custom and usage reign supreme. In addition to that is whatever the sitting monarch decrees - assuming he will enforce it.

No it appears to be in the south as well.  And eh? In any goverment system rather that'd  a form of democracy or monarchy the law can change based on the will of people. Courts are administrating law but in a feudal society that task has been delegated to the lords. 

And revenge is not legal is not custom with support of the law; if a peasant has a grievance with another it is the be-grieved party's to seek out a person of authority to asertain what justice must be dealt out in the situation. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

That's actually incorrect. Jeor had erroneously assessed the situation when he thought that his men broke guest rights. Craster in fact was the one to break the laws of hospitality when he attempted to attack Clubfoot Karl.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

Also, another example of guest rights being referred to as a law, and the breaking of such as a crime.

Stand corrected* but in terms of guest right being law?

Eh, I see more of something that'd perhaps enhance the penalty for having committed a crime against someone in the first place.

Like, you could not commit it without having actually done something that'd considered illegal/punishable in the first place to your host/guest to actually break it.

 

[Light a wight tonight]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No it appears to be in the south as well.  And eh? In any goverment system rather that'd  a form of democracy or monarchy the law can change based on the will of people. Courts are administrating law but in a feudal society that task has been delegated to the lords. 

And revenge is not legal is not custom with support of the law; if a peasant has a grievance with another it is the be-grieved party's to seek out a person of authority to asertain what justice must be dealt out in the situation. 

 

As you say, authority rests with the noble class. The lower classes appeal to the nobles for justice. But to whom do the nobles appeal? Nobody, basically. They deal with the issues between themselves. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

14 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Guest rights is an ancient custom.  But it is not against the law to break guest rights.  I will grant you that it is a cherished custom but not one that is expressly prohibited by the king's laws.

You haven't even opened the books yet, have you?

The Red Wedding was expressly named a crime. And by Lord Walder's allies, no less.

Quote

 

“My lords may not know,” said Qyburn, “but in the winesinks and pot shops of this city, there are those who suggest that the crown might have been somehow complicit in Lord Walder’s crime.”

The other councillors stared at him uncertainly. “Do you refer to the Red Wedding?” asked Aurane Waters. “Crime?” said Ser Harys. Pycelle cleared his throat noisily. Lord Gyles coughed.

“These sparrows are especially outspoken,” warned Qyburn. “The Red Wedding was an affront to all the laws of gods and men, they say, and those who had a hand in it are damned.”

(...)

“A little spittle on Lord Walder’s tomb is not like to disturb the grave worms,” Qyburn agreed, “but it would also be useful if someone were to be punished for the Red Wedding. A few Frey heads would do much to mollify the north.”

“Lord Walder will never sacrifice his own,” said Pycelle.

“No,” mused Cersei, “but his heirs may be less squeamish. Lord Walder will soon do us the courtesy of dying, we can hope. What better way for the new Lord of the Crossing to rid himself of inconvenient half brothers, disagreeable cousins, and scheming sisters than by naming them the culprits?”

 

Now, you may argue that crime isn't against the law, and breaking the law isn't against the law, or that "culprit" doesn't refer to somebody that broke any laws, or that Qyburn and Cersei are excessively squeamish, Stark-loving bleeding hearts. Go ahead.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

As you say, authority rests with the noble class. The lower classes appeal to the nobles for justice. But to whom do the nobles appeal? Nobody, basically. They deal with the issues between themselves. 

Lords appeal to their lord paramount if they've an issue with each other, and lord paramounts appeal the king if they've a issue with each other and the king(if he's wise), would try to appeal to his lord paramounts to keep the privellage of being king.

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

15 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Cannibalism is murder.  I would assume it is punishable by law since Stannis roasted his soldiers for eating the dead. 

No it's not, as pointed out above.  It isn't even against the law in the US per say (although most states have enacted laws that make it impossible to legally obtain body matter to consume).  But if someone does obtain it legally and decides to consume it, they haven't broken any law. And there are numerous reasons to commit cannibalism (Donner party, Uruguayan Rugby team from Alive, etc.) . 

And Stannis is a zealot.  He had no right to roast those soldiers.  What he did was murder.