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Cannibalism and Guest Rights


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9 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

And Stannis is a zealot.  He had no right to roast those soldiers.  What he did was murder. 

I agree. The cannibalistic soldiers didn't themselves kill their mates. What they did was attempt to preserve their own lives/maintain military readiness by consuming already-dead flesh. Odds are, none of them actually enjoyed the act, other than it made them less starved. Moreover, Stannis' punishment, burning alive, was unnecessarily cruel and brutal. Just ask the Hound.

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16 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

 

And Stannis is a zealot.  He had no right to roast those soldiers.  What he did was murder. 

Stannis is a lot of things but he by no means a zealot. And since there's no way to know for sure those soldiers killed and then ate the guy no? And he as a lord has the authority to execute these men.

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45 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

And Stannis is a zealot. 

Where in the world of Ice and Fire did you get that from?

Quote

He had no right to roast those soldiers.  What he did was murder. 

Whether cannibalism is against the law in Westeros or not is irrelevant. I can't recall if those men were guilty of other crimes aside from the cannibalism, but as the King, if Stannis forbids an act, he has every right to execute those that defy his word.

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Lords appeal to their lord paramount if they've an issue with each other, and lord paramounts appeal the king if they've a issue with each other and the king(if he's wise), would try to appeal to his lord paramounts to keep the privellage of being king.

A lord would only appeal to his paramount if he was too weak to assert his rights. We don't see the Brackens and Blackwoods asking for mediation over centuries of feuding. 

Appealing to the king's authority didn't work out well for Rickard Stark, did it?

And we see no kings appeasing their various Lords Paramount. The monarchy was their Gods-given right, not a privilege/

You mustn't try to impose your view of how a feudal system should work on Martin's Westeros. It's a really bad fit.

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16 hours ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Guest rights is an ancient custom.  But it is not against the law to break guest rights.  I will grant you that it is a cherished custom but not one that is expressly prohibited by the king's laws.

Cannibalism is murder.  I would assume it is punishable by law since Stannis roasted his soldiers for eating the dead. 

Wayman Manderly's crimes is punishable by law and it is an affront to the gods.  What Wayman Manderly did is much, much worse than the violation of guest rights. 

Both are custom.  Cannibalism is more off putting.  I guess it comes down to how you feel about the characters.  I like Walder Frey but I don't particularly like Wayman Manderly.  

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

A lord would only appeal to his paramount if he was too weak to assert his rights. We don't see the Brackens and Blackwoods asking for mediation over centuries of feuding. 

 

Eh, they actually did come before Hoster to sort their matter out. 

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Appealing to the king's authority didn't work out well for Rickard Stark, did it?

And we see no kings appeasing their various Lords Paramount. The monarchy was their Gods-given right, not a privilege/

You mustn't try to impose your view of how a feudal system should work on Martin's Westeros. It's a really bad fit.

No it didn't work out for Rickarad and Brandon Stark.

Because Aerys was a mad king not a wise king

If he were he'd treat the father-son duo in a way befitting their rank he'd avoid the uprising that'd inevitably occur for his punishment of the two. 

We see kings pretend as though because they are king things should/are going to simply work out because they are king and appease their lord paramounts.

And has shown with Joffery and Aerys' dealing with the Starks that it was in their best interests not to have executed them.

 

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

You mustn't try to impose your view of how a feudal system should work on Martin's Westeros. It's a really bad fit.

I have to agree with @Varysblackfyre321 on this matter. Both Robert's rebellion and the war of five Kings were a direct result of a King overstepping his bounds, and being held responsible by his subjects; Both Kings paid for it with their lives.

 

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It seems to me that Aerys went somewhat beyond making nice with his Lords Paramount.

1 hour ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

I have to agree with @Varysblackfyre321 on this matter. Both Robert's rebellion and the war of five Kings were a direct result of a King overstepping his bounds, and being held responsible by his subjects; Both Kings paid for it with their lives.

 

 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh, they actually did come before Hoster to sort their matter out. 

No it didn't work out for Rickarad and Brandon Stark.

Because Aerys was a mad king not a wise king

If he were he'd treat the father-son duo in a way befitting their rank he'd avoid the uprising that'd inevitably occur for his punishment of the two. 

We see kings pretend as though because they are king things should/are going to simply work out because they are king and appease their lord paramounts.

And has shown with Joffery and Aerys' dealing with the Starks that it was in their best interests not to have executed them.

 

It seems to me that Aerys went some distance beyond not making nice with his Lords Paramount and I don't recall anyone attempting to dissuade him from his actions. Just an "up yours" from Jon Arryn & Friends. Said actions were egregious but still he had support from the Houses not immediately impacted by those actions. 

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3 hours ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

No it's not, as pointed out above.  It isn't even against the law in the US per say (although most states have enacted laws that make it impossible to legally obtain body matter to consume).  But if someone does obtain it legally and decides to consume it, they haven't broken any law. And there are numerous reasons to commit cannibalism (Donner party, Uruguayan Rugby team from Alive, etc.) . 

And Stannis is a zealot.  He had no right to roast those soldiers.  What he did was murder. 

I disagree with the bolded part. Stannis is rigid, but he's on the atheistic side of agnosticism, going along with Melisandre and Red Rahloo only in order to take advantage of her magic.

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30 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I disagree with the bolded part. Stannis is rigid, but he's on the atheistic side of agnosticism, going along with Melisandre and Red Rahloo only in order to take advantage of her magic.

Meh I'd say he's a loose anti-theist. Agnosism means he doesn't know(or thinks he knows) but Stannis fully cotends even there are gods he rejects them.

I have to say his religious sensibilities and when he voices them to others I find to be one of the reasons I find the man facisnating.

I think that's why he's so dismissive to Jon's oaths; as if any oaths sworn based on the gods approval don't really count.

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

It seems to me that Aerys went somewhat beyond making nice with his Lords Paramount.

 

It seems to me that Aerys went some distance beyond not making nice with his Lords Paramount and I don't recall anyone attempting to dissuade him from his actions. Just an "up yours" from Jon Arryn & Friends. Said actions were egregious but still he had support from the Houses not immediately impacted by those actions. 

Who would? The guy has been insane for years now if anyone dared question him he'd burn them alive. They couldn't dissuade they had to beat him.

 

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5 hours ago, Blackwater Revenant said:

Where in the world of Ice and Fire did you get that from?

Whether cannibalism is against the law in Westeros or not is irrelevant. I can't recall if those men were guilty of other crimes aside from the cannibalism, but as the King, if Stannis forbids an act, he has every right to execute those that defy his word.

If you like him or not (I don't) how can you not see Stannis as a zealot in what he pursues?  The man puts everything in his narrow view of the world.  He is the very definition of the word.  His pursuit of his "right" to be king falls short to nothing he won't do. Now, I'm not saying he doesn't have the right, I have yet to make up my mind on that, but the way he pursues it is not justified or justifiable.  

And those men had no right to be killed, it was just Stannis being Stannis. Eating whatever meat is in front of you is not a crime, if it is your only choice between life and death.  That is the problem with Stannis, he can't understand shades of grey. Do I like what those men did? No.  Do I understand it?  Absolutely.  Would I do the same?  Yes. Sorry if that makes me a bad person. 

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20 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

If you like him or not (I don't) how can you not see Stannis as a zealot in what he pursues?  The man puts everything in his narrow view of the world.  He is the very definition of the word.  His pursuit of his "right" to be king falls short to nothing he won't do. Now, I'm not saying he doesn't have the right, I have yet to make up my mind on that, but the way he pursues it is not justified or justifiable.  

And those men had no right to be killed, it was just Stannis being Stannis. Eating whatever meat is in front of you is not a crime, if it is your only choice between life and death.  That is the problem with Stannis, he can't understand shades of grey. Do I like what those men did? No.  Do I understand it?  Absolutely.  Would I do the same?  Yes. Sorry if that makes me a bad person. 

He did consider burning Edric and from Martin's words will burn Shireen.

But, it's not a matter of these guys starving and having to eat a person to survive; this sort of thing must be knicked in bud before it becomes "acceptable" and since there was no way to determine if the guy they ate wasn't someone they murdererd 

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Stannis is not a religious zealot. He is trying to pursue his rights to the throne because he thinks it is his duty as Robert's only true heir, and he never had kingly ambitions to begin with. Melisandre came to Stannis because of Selyse, and Melisandre is promising (in her charlatan way) to give Stannis what he wants... that duty of the throne.


Stannis really doesn't judge or condemn anyone for not being a Red Rahlooist. And actually, Stannis, now that he is away from Melisandre's clutches, is a lot more blasé about R'hllorism himself. The best chapters to see this are the end of ADWD Asha 2- The King's Prize, and the entire beginning to ADWD Asha 3- The Sacrifice (which is another double meaning chapter title).

A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize

The horses and the common men had it hardest. Two squires from the stormlands stabbed a man-at-arms to death in a quarrel over who would sit closest to the fire. The next night some archers desperate for warmth somehow managed to set their tent afire, which had at least the virtue of heating the adjacent tents. Destriers began to perish of exhaustion and exposure. "What is a knight without a horse?" men riddled. "A snowman with a sword." Any horse that went down was butchered on the spot for meat. Their provisions had begun to run low as well.
Peasebury, Cobb, Foxglove, and other southron lords urged the king to make camp until the storm had passed. Stannis would have none of that. Nor would he heed the queen's men when they came to urge him to make an offering to their hungry red god.
That tale she had from Justin Massey, who was less devout than most. "A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."
That tale she had from Justin Massey, who was less devout than most. "A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."
"Half my army is made up of unbelievers," Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."
No burnings today, and none tomorrow … but if the snows continue, how long before the king's resolve begins to weaken? Asha had never shared her uncle Aeron's faith in the Drowned God, but that night she prayed as fervently to He Who Dwells Beneath the Waves as ever the Damphair had. The storm did not abate. The march continued, slowing to a stagger, then a crawl. Five miles was a good day. Then three. Then two.
 
... and then later we see that Stannis did not order the burning of the four "flesh eaters"... who did not murder anyone, the Queens Men took it upon themselves, and by Queens Men that means Melisandre/R'hllor, not Selyse...
 

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

"Where is the king?" asked Ser Corliss Penny.
Four days ago, one of the king's own squires had succumbed to cold and hunger, a boy named Bryen Farring who'd been kin to Ser Godry. Stannis Baratheon stood grim-faced by the funeral pyre as the lad's body was consigned to the flames. Afterward the king had retreated to his watchtower. He had not emerged since … though from time to time His Grace was glimpsed upon the tower roof, outlined against the beacon fire that burned there night and day. Talking to the red god, some said. Calling out for Lady Melisandre, insisted others. Either way, it seemed to Asha Greyjoy, the king was lost and crying out for help.
"Canty, go find the king and tell him all is ready," Ser Godry said to the nearest man-at-arms.
"The king is here." The voice was Richard Horpe's.
Over his armor of plate and mail Ser Richard wore his quilted doublet, blazoned with three death's-head moths on a field of ash and bone. King Stannis walked beside him. Behind them, struggling to keep pace, Arnolf Karstark came hobbling, leaning on his blackthorn cane. Lord Arnolf had found them eight days past. The northman had brought a son, three grandsons, four hundred spears, two score archers, a dozen mounted lances, a maester, and a cage of ravens … but only enough provisions to sustain his own.
 
Karstark was no lord in truth, Asha had been given to understand, only castellan of Karhold for as long as the true lord remained a captive of the Lannisters. Gaunt and bent and crooked, with a left shoulder half a foot higher than his right, he had a scrawny neck, squinty grey eyes, and yellow teeth. A few white hairs were all that separated him from baldness; his forked beard was equal parts white and grey, but always ragged. Asha thought there was something sour about his smiles. Yet if the talk was true, it was Karstark who would hold Winterfell should they take it. Somewhere in the distant past House Karstark had sprouted from House Stark, and Lord Arnolf had been the first of Eddard Stark's bannermen to declare for Stannis.
So far as Asha knew, the gods of the Karstarks were the old gods of the north, gods they shared with the Wulls, the Norreys, the Flints, and the other hill clans. She wondered if Lord Arnolf had come to view the burning at the king's behest, that he might witness the power of the red god for himself.
At the sight of Stannis, two of the men bound to the stakes began to plead for mercy. The king listened in silence, his jaw clenched. Then he said to Godry Farring, "You may begin."
Ser Corliss Penny stepped forward, clutching the torch with both hands. He swung it about his head in a circle, fanning the flames. One of the captives began to whimper.
"R'hllor," Ser Godry sang, "we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers."
"Lord of Light, accept this sacrifice," a hundred voices echoed. Ser Corliss lit the first pyre with the torch, then thrust it into the wood at the base of the second. A few wisps of smoke began to rise. The captives began to cough. The first flames appeared, shy as maidens, darting and dancing from log to leg. In moments both the stakes were engulfed in fire.
"He was dead," the weeping boy screamed, as the flames licked up his legs. "We found him dead … please … we was hungry …" The fires reached his balls. As the hair around his cock began to burn, his pleading dissolved into one long wordless shriek.
...and then...
After a time the screaming stopped.
Wordless, King Stannis walked away, back to the solitude of his watchtower. Back to his beacon fire, Asha knew, to search the flames for answers. Arnolf Karstark made to hobble after him, but Ser Richard Horpe took him by the arm and turned him toward the longhall. The watchers began to drift away, each to his own fire and whatever meagre supper he might find.
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