Do you think Ned knew Old Nan's true identity?

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think she is Old Nan and I think the vision Bran had of the slender young lady at Winterfell kissing the really tall man was Old Nan when she was Young Nan making out with Duncan the Tall, thick as a castle wall.

It's unlikely that the girl in Bran's vision was Old Nan. The guy most likely was indeed Duncan. "Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor."

It was said in the book that Old Nan came to Winterfell to be wet nurse for little Brandon (son of Willem Stark and Lyanne Glover), and that at that time she already had her own children. Girl slender as a spear - mother and wet nurse and future Old Nan and kissing with Duncan? Unlikely.

Duncan and Egg came to Winterfell between 211 and 219 (closer to 211). At that time Old Nan was not yet at Winterfell, then she was too young to be a wet nurse, or someone's wife and mother. Most likely the she-wolves of Winterfell from fourth novel of Dunc & Egg are Berena and Alysanne. So if that knight was Duncan, then probably the girl is one of Stark sisters. Or maybe just some maid/servant girl.

Though could be that the knight is not Duncan, and that scene is from earlier times.

"1. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

2. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor.

3. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows."

If Bran's visions are in chronological order, then could be that 3 is Brandon Snow, brother of King Torrhen Stark, and three weirwood arrows are actually three maesters (three arrows made from sacred tree of Old Gods - three maesters that are servants of Seven Gods), that were sent with Brandon to negotiate with Aegon the Conqueror;

the 1 could be Alysanne Blackwood the Black Aly. After the Dance of the Dragons she married with Cregan Stark, and begged Old Gods to give her son to avenge her, and Old Gods in reply to her request gave her Sarra, Alys, Raya and Mariah, four daughters - the answer to her prayers was No. No revenge.

and the 2 could be Ronnel Arryn the King Who Flew (first on Visenya's dragon, and then thru the Moon Door), the one who was married with daughter of the last King in The North Torrhen Stark. So the knight in that vision is Ronnel Arryn and the girl is a Stark; or the knight is Jacaerys Velaryon and the girl is a bastard daughter of Rickon Stark (half-sister of Cregan Stark), with whom Jacaerys secretly married (and left Vermax's dragon eggs at Winterfell as his wedding gift).

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

There's a theory out there claiming she is dornish and that she is Tanselle Too-Tall. Yes, I know Old Nan is short, but that was because of her extreme old age. If she was the woman in Bran's vision, the one kissing the tall knight, we can see Bran describing her as a spear, spear are often used to describe tall or very slim people. Maybe Dunk met Tanselle after a time? I mean, look at the size of Hodor and we also know Nan had two sons and a grandson, and many daughters as well, it would be nice to know if her sons and grandson were also tall.

Old Nan is a real mystery though, some people claim she is Shiera Seastar, other claims she is another dornishwoman, because Nan can be short for Nymeria, some say Tanselle was not the real name of the girl Dunk met in Ashford, that she was a noble in disguise. Some say she is Rohanne Webber. Take your pick lol.

Tanselle Too-Tall was the right height for Dunk to kiss. The girl in the vision is standing on the tips of her toes, that's hardly the right height.

I think that Nan is exactly who she is, an old servant of Winterfell. It is totally beyond me why someone of Shiera's looks, skills and personality should choose to become a wetnurse as the only way to be able to access the prophesized one. Plus, she would have to be glamouring herself the whole time because silver hair, mismatched eyes and outstanding beauty are not exactly the features that wouldn't draw attention. Also, Old Nan had two sons and some daughters, so who did Shiera deign with her attention at Winterfell?

16 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

This confirms Bloodraven was waiting for a Brandon to be born at Winterfell. The fact he watched Neds's brith implies he didn't know when this Brandon Stark would be born.

I agree that Bloodraven was watching Winterfell for quite some time, but I don't think his adressation of Bran implies that he was waiting for a Brandon Stark to be born. It is more like he was waiting for a child with greenseer powers and tried to lead the child to him, but it took a long time.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

and that Bloodraven who is currently a member of the Nights Watch (though he's thought to be dead) who are commonly referred to as crows lied to her telling her that she would only be gone for a few years. 

So without getting to far into the Bloodraven isn’t the three-eyed-crow rabbit hole... he certainly isn’t still a brother of the Nights Watch:

 

Quote

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." 

"I'm here," Bran said, "only I'm broken. Will you … will you fix me … my legs, I mean?"

 

When asked if he’s the three-eyed-crow Bloodraven doesn’t understand the question... but he misinterprets it to mean brother of the nights watch, and tells Bran he was once one, clearly implying he is no longer. He flew down from the wall after serving for 13 years...

Quote

 

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?" 

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark." 

"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

 

[The Fattest Leech]

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It's unlikely that the girl in Bran's vision was Old Nan. The guy most likely was indeed Duncan. "Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor."

It was said in the book that Old Nan came to Winterfell to be wet nurse for little Brandon (son of Willem Stark and Lyanne Glover), and that at that time she already had her own children. Girl slender as a spear - mother and wet nurse and future Old Nan and kissing with Duncan? Unlikely.

Duncan and Egg came to Winterfell between 211 and 219 (closer to 211). At that time Old Nan was not yet at Winterfell, then she was too young to be a wet nurse, or someone's wife and mother. Most likely the she-wolves of Winterfell from fourth novel of Dunc & Egg are Berena and Alysanne. So if that knight was Duncan, then probably the girl is one of Stark sisters. Or maybe just some maid/servant girl.

Oh no doubt. That’s why it is speculation, and part of that is how Hodor turned out to be so large and even a bit about his role with Bran parallel to Egg. We know Brienne is descended from Dunk (don’t know the exact how, yet), and I suspect Grenn could possibly be descended as well if we look at Grenn’s patterns toward events, and I believe Grenn is the only other one who is described as “thick as a castle wall” (if I remember correctly because it has been a long time since this topic was last discussed). 

Did you find something to say how old Old Nan was when she first arrived at Winterfell as a wet nurse? 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Tanselle Too-Tall was the right height for Dunk to kiss. The girl in the vision is standing on the tips of her toes, that's hardly the right height.

I think that Nan is exactly who she is, an old servant of Winterfell. It is totally beyond me why someone of Shiera's looks, skills and personality should choose to become a wetnurse as the only way to be able to access the prophesized one. Plus, she would have to be glamouring herself the whole time because silver hair, mismatched eyes and outstanding beauty are not exactly the features that wouldn't draw attention. Also, Old Nan had two sons and some daughters, so who did Shiera deign with her attention at Winterfell?

I agree that Bloodraven was watching Winterfell for quite some time, but I don't think his adressation of Bran implies that he was waiting for a Brandon Stark to be born. It is more like he was waiting for a child with greenseer powers and tried to lead the child to him, but it took a long time.

Fair point about who would she have slept with and was she using a glamour the entire time while at Winterfell. 

 

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So without getting to far into the Bloodraven isn’t the three-eyed-crow rabbit hole... he certainly isn’t still a brother of the Nights Watch:

 

When asked if he’s the three-eyed-crow Bloodraven doesn’t understand the question... but he misinterprets it to mean brother of the nights watch, and tells Bran he was once one, clearly implying he is no longer. He flew down from the wall after serving for 13 years...

 

and yes with that statement we know that the three eyed crow is a different entity. Most likely the instrument of the great other. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Do you think Ned knew who Old Nan truly was? If so why did he keep this information secret and who do you think she is? (I'm a firm believer she is Shiera Seastar) If not do you think any of the previous Stark's knew her true identity? And do you think she is still alive and if so where has she been since Theon took/lost Winterfell?

you have not stated what you think her true identity is. Do that first. The thread will be less confusing

18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I think Old Nan was once Young Nan, but is now Old Nan.

bingo 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh no doubt. That’s why it is speculation, and part of that is how Hodor turned out to be so large and even a bit about his role with Bran parallel to Egg. We know Brienne is descended from Dunk (don’t know the exact how, yet), and I suspect Grenn could possibly be descended as well if we look at Grenn’s patterns toward events, and I believe Grenn is the only other one who is described as “thick as a castle wall” (if I remember correctly because it has been a long time since this topic was last discussed). 

Did you find something to say how old Old Nan was when she first arrived at Winterfell as a wet nurse? 

lets assume 16 as that is a fair age in westeros for when people are considered adults. She could be even younger depending on when she had her maidens blood. Willam Stark died in 226 and we dont know when he married Lyanne so it can be anywhere from 225 or earlier when she came to Winterfell. Shiera could hve been 41-44 years old but glamours... Old Nan can truly be some random women but her knowledge of all things makes her seem to be someone of importance.

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, divica said:

And if old nan got to 100 then she may very well have something magical in her. I don t imagine it is easy for a person in medieval times to get to 100 in a place like winterfell where is always cold.

Maester Aemon died at 102, and where he lived for the last 67 years was much colder than at Winterfell.

19 hours ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Some say she is Rohanne Webber.

Rohanne Webber was rich, moderately influential, and beautiful, so there was no reason for her to become a wet nurse for Stark child. She was a Lady, and had her own castle and household. And the Stark child was not some royal prince, to have a highborn wet nurse.

Not to mention that when Rohanne Webber disapeared in 230, she was 44-45 years old, and she left her four Lannister children at Casterly Rock. And Nan came to Winterfell with her own children. So is it likely that 40+ years old Rohanne, after leaving her Lannister husband, went to The North, and prior coming to Winterfell, gave birth to another child (the child that she brought with her to Winterfell)? Why would Willem Stark hire as a wet nurse a 40+ years old grandma, if he can hire a much youger and healthier women?

[Ygrain]

32 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Shiera could hve been 41-44 years old but glamours

And she would have needed to have a child first, so that she could nurse. I'm not saying she would have been too old at that age, but her chances of conceiving would have dropped considerably by then; plus, to account for Nan's two sons and at least two daughters, she would have had to manage quite a miracle. - Also, lucky her that none of the children developed the telling Targaryen features.

One more point: to be able to pass the knowledge to the greenseer, why did she have to poise as a wetnurse? Were there no other ways she could get in touch with the child at a later age, when he was old enough to actually understand what she was telling him? For instance, a wise woman in the woods who he might start to visit on his rides? I really, really can't see someone like Shiera content with nursing and changing soiled swaddling clothes for decades.

As for Old Nan's tales: they sound very much like the various myths, folk tales and legends that are passed down the generations until the truth behind them becomes obscured, rather than real knowledge of old history. Also, narratively, we are introduced to them very early on, at a point where obscure hints make more sense than the hard data which will be exposed only later.

[Ygrain]

18 hours ago, divica said:

And if old nan got to 100 then she may very well have something magical in her. I don t imagine it is easy for a person in medieval times to get to 100 in a place like winterfell where is always cold.

There are always exceptions. Plus, it seems GRRM lets the Westerosi have more of a modern life-span. 

Also, cold preserves :-) (not to mention that Winterfell with its natural heating via the hot springs seems way more hospitable than RL castles)

[LiveFirstDieLater]

We might dismiss Nan as just the keeper of old stories, where there are still some remnants of old knowledge passed down over generations... but I have to say she seems more on point than that to me. And she has a great sense of smell...

Quote

Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

Do you think she can smell the hot blood in it?

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He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—"

Click, click, click!!!

Creepy right?!?

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"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

All crows are liars... they never defeated the Others...

What has terrible eyesight and a great sense of smell? What? A Wolf?

And a wolf suckling babies, where have I heard that tale? Romulus and Remus? “The brother of the man who brought him down”

If nothing else she tells a good spooky tale!

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Did you find something to say how old Old Nan was when she first arrived at Winterfell as a wet nurse? 

Old Nan's age, and age of Starks, to whom she served, is unknown, though we can assume what it was, based on known years of birth of Targaryens from the same generation. So it seems that at that time she was about 20-24, or a few years older, but less than 30.

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

Willam Stark died in 226 and we dont know when he married Lyanne so it can be anywhere from 225 or earlier when she came to Winterfell.

You missed his second wife.

After Willem's first wife Lyanne died in childbirth, some time later he married again, with Melantha Blackwood. And she gave birth to two of his children, Jocelyn and Edwyle. When Willem died in 226, next Lord of Winterfell became Edwyle, thus he was born prior 226. And seems that he and his sister were not twins, so the latest she was born is in 225. It's unlikely that Willem married same year when his first wife died. Could be that he remarried only when his son Brandon also died, three years after Lyanne.

For example Willem and Lyanne married in 220. Brandon was born and Lyanne died in 221. Brandon died in 224. Willem remarried in 225 or in 222. Then his children from second marriage were born both in 226 (if they were twins), or if he remarried in 222, then first child was born in 223, and second in 225. Aegon V married in 220, when he was 19. Seems that Willem and Lyanne were about the same age or a few years younger than Aegon V.

Or could be that they were older than Aegon V, and married earlier than in 220. So when Nan came to Winterfell she was younger than 20 years old.

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

lets assume 16 as that is a fair age in westeros for when people are considered adults. She could be even younger depending on when she had her maidens blood.

For Old Nan to become a wet nurse, first she had to give birth to her own child, otherwise she won't have milk.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Old Nan's age, and age of Starks, to whom she served, is unknown, though we can assume what it was, based on known years of birth of Targaryens from the same generation. So it seems that at that time she was about 20-24, or a few years older, but less than 30.

I agree with the 20ish year old age. Certainly an age that would allow her to have had at least one child in order to serve as a wet nurse. That is the same guesstimate I came to myself on pg1. She’s in oldy, but a goody 

[Ser Leftwich]

"Of course there was Old Nan and her daughter Young Nan.

Oddly enough, Young Nan's daughter was older than Old Nan.

Nobody could figure out how that happened. And every time I asked they'd slap me."

(Old Nan is just an old person to dole out novel wisdom/legends. Not everyone needs to be someone out of legend or the extended past.)

[Lord Lannister]

Sometimes Old Nan is just Old Nan. Not everyone has to have some hidden secret identity and can have a perfectly interesting past in their own right.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Lord Walder is in his 90s, Aemon was 102.  Neither are really magical no?  

And Shiera Seastar was at least fifteen years older than her nephew Aemon.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Old Nan's age, and age of Starks, to whom she served, is unknown, though we can assume what it was, based on known years of birth of Targaryens from the same generation. So it seems that at that time she was about 20-24, or a few years older, but less than 30.

You missed his second wife.

After Willem's first wife Lyanne died in childbirth, some time later he married again, with Melantha Blackwood. And she gave birth to two of his children, Jocelyn and Edwyle. When Willem died in 226, next Lord of Winterfell became Edwyle, thus he was born prior 226. And seems that he and his sister were not twins, so the latest she was born is in 225. It's unlikely that Willem married same year when his first wife died. Could be that he remarried only when his son Brandon also died, three years after Lyanne.

For example Willem and Lyanne married in 220. Brandon was born and Lyanne died in 221. Brandon died in 224. Willem remarried in 225 or in 222. Then his children from second marriage were born both in 226 (if they were twins), or if he remarried in 222, then first child was born in 223, and second in 225. Aegon V married in 220, when he was 19. Seems that Willem and Lyanne were about the same age or a few years younger than Aegon V.

Or could be that they were older than Aegon V, and married earlier than in 220. So when Nan came to Winterfell she was younger than 20 years old.

For Old Nan to become a wet nurse, first she had to give birth to her own child, otherwise she won't have milk.

I thought it wasn't confirmed which wife came first? Whomever Old Nan may or may not be she has been right more often then not and must have had some friends or lovers who has credible knowledge, resources, experiences about westerosi legends. And we are all forgetting Mel... Mel is most likely the daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven so she would have been able be a nurse. Mind you she didn't want to go to Winterfell but when she left KL (this is all based on my theory of her being Old Nan) and went to hideout with blood raven in his cave he hadn't a clue how long she would be waiting at Winterfell for the right Brandon Stark. Can we pinpoint a firm age range of Mel? I also think the timeline of the events is skewed and it is something we will never get 100% accuracy till the last page in ASOIAF... Jon is older then Dany and Robb (N+A=J)...

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

Mel is most likely the daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven so she would have been able be a nurse.

Indeed, if she went to Winterfell right away after Mel was weaned, or kept milking herself to maintain the milk production. But why would they take this completely strange person in confidence to nurse the heir of Winterfell? Wouldn't an already trusted servant, or a relative of one that could be vouched for, be more suitable for the job? 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Can't Old Nan just be a nice old woman who was born as a true child of the North? One who served the Starks of Winterfell for nearly a hundred years. Doesn't that make her special enough? Does she really need a secret identity?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

By the way, you guys wanna hear a brand new, mind-blowing Shiera Seastar theory?

Here it goes.

She was actually "Shiera Sister", or maybe even "Sherry Sister" or "Cherry Sister", only the Targaryens can't spell worth shit. (Why nickname "Sister", though? 'Cause she was love interest to both Bittersteel and Bloodraven, and she was (half-)sister to both, and when you're a Targ, that's hawt.)