NFL 2018 Superb Owl Edition: Is There A Way To Tell If Gronk Is Concussed?

[Wilbur]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

... but Foles outside of Philly has yet to be good...  but... but... but...

The answer to your query is, "Jeff Fisher was an idiot coach who cut the legs out from under every player and team he ever supervised.  You could have substituted a blancmange for Jeff Fisher and still earned as many wins in most seasons."

[Rockroi]

So, I am going to say something right off the top because it needs to be said first: Congratulations to the Philadelphia Eagles, Doug Peterson, and Nick Foles for doing every fucking thing that a team, a coach and QB must do to win this game- sticking to their game plan, eliminating stupid plays, being balls-out risk takers, not getting crushed by the pressure and making ever play possible to beat the Patriots.  

The remainder of this post MAY look like I am trying to degrade that, but I'm not.  The Eagles went for it on 4th down TWICE; they put the ball in Nick Foles' hands and said "We know you can win this for us" and HE DID!  They never panicked; never lost cite of how to win, never got the yips.  even when their D failed to put the pressure on Brady that they had expected, the O kept firing.  Peterson deserves all the accolades - going for the TD at the end of the first half and that MONSTER drive at the end of the game that KO'd the Pats, after getting stuffed on 3rd, going for it on their side of the field.  Stones.  All out fucking stones.  Coaches before Peterson panicked, got that deer-in-headlights look and collapsed.  Not him.  And not Foles.  

Had you told me before the game that the Pats and Eagles would both turn the ball over once; that Brady would have 500 yards passing and that the Eagles would have ONE sack, I would have shrugged and said, "Oh, then Pats win in a blowout, right?"  Even with loosing Cooks, even with Gostkowski's botches, even with HIGHLY questionable play calling in the first half, I would have naturally assumed the Pats would have won.

And I would have been wrong. Dead FUCKING wrong. 

First and foremost, the Pats O was boarder-line unstoppable all night.  While the Eagles ran 72 offensive plays, the Pats ran 73; Pats had more first downs (29 v. 25), more yards (613 v. 538); Brady had a higher passer rating than Foles (115.4 v. 106.1), more yards (505 v. 373), etc.  The Pats had 3 receivers with over 100 yards - Amendola, Gronk and Hogan. 

I am not saying this as some sort of jibe that the Pats should have won and had a better game than the Eagles; that's not my line here.

The Pats D was unacceptably bad.  I say "unacceptably" for a reason- more on that in a moment.  The Pats D could not stop a runny nose tonight.  As many said- it was a replay of the Eagles victory over the Vikings, only the Pats had Brady and not Case Keenum.  The Eagles were 10 for 16 on 3rd down (62.5%, an amazing number by any stretch) and of the 6 they missed, the Eagles were 2-for-2 on 4th down.  That means of the 16 times the Eagles had to make a first down, 12 of them ended with them, eventually, getting the first down - 75%.  That is completely insane.

The Pats D was atrocious and maybe one of the worst I have ever seen show up at a Superbowl- maybe worse than the Pats 2011 team.  That D 1) failed to tackle legendary fat-fuck Lagarrett Blount (who, I swear, I have NEVER liked), 2) failed to even mildly rattle back-up QB Nick Foles; 3) failed to stop the Eagles Offense the VAST majority of the night, 4) forced ONE punt, 5) and could never ever get off the field.  The Pats D let the Eagles have the ball for 34 minutes (to the Pats 26).  More than enough for the Eagles.  

Yes, I know there were two "controversial" TD calls and I don't think there is anything less interesting than having those discussions.  For my take, I think neither was a TD and I said AT THE TIME that neither would be overturned.  

But then we come to why this was "unacceptable."

Malcom Butler did not play ONE defensive snap.  Not a one.  Why?

We know a few things: Belichick has stated that it was NOT disciplinary.  Butler was NOT listed on the injury report.  We know he (allegedly) had the flu and flew to Minn after the team arrived.  After the game when soon-to-be-three-years-and-fired-Lions-head-coach Matt Patricia was asked he said "Packages."  As in Butler was not ideal for the packages the Pats had.

Just a reminder- Malcom Butler played in 98% of the defensive plays this season.  0% on Sunday. 

After the Game, an "emotional" Malcom Butler said that "They gave up on me. FUCK. It is what it is."  "I could have changed that game," 

The pats gave up 538 total yards the most EVER given up, not just by the Pats in a Superbowl, not JUST by the Pats in a Playoff game... not Just by any Pats team in the Belichick era... no.

538 yards is the most ANY team has hung on a Bill Belichick coached team.  EVER.  Nick Foles did that.  

And Butler did not see the defensive side of the field (he was on special teams, though).  You will forgive me if I take umbrage at that.  I mean, sure lets say that the Flash plays of rthe Eagles and maybe Butler cannot hang with him.  Okay, I get that.  But is Nelson Aghalor that?  Or Jeffery?  Of Smith?  Holy shit!  Do we NEED a highly regarded DB?  Apparently not!  

No!  Let him stay on the bench!  

How does that give your team the BEST chance to win?  How is that fair to the rest of the team?  How is that fair to the O?  How is that even fair to the D?  How is it fair to everyone else on that team? 

I know that the Pats D made it work for so long and I know last season they made it work so well.  But ...

2015- Pats cut Chandler Jones.  Jones is a perennial Pro-Bowler for the Cards;

2016- in Mid Season the Pats trade Jamie Collins for, well, nothing (conditional third round pick the Pats would have gotten anyway had he signed as a free agent anywhere else as a tender).  

2017- Pats BENCH their extremely good DB, Malcom Butler and, instead go with Eric Rowe who was ROUTINELY torched by Jeffery, Johnson Badamosi who was completely irrelevant and Jordan Richards who is fucking terrible at everything.

But hey, at least we all learned something...

Would Butler have made a difference?  I'll never know.  But it seems like he could not POSSIBLY have done worse. 

And we will get no answers for this... 

The world right now is THRILLED the Pats lost (a TON of "Eagles Fans" have appeared on my Facebook feed the last few days) and in that, I cannot share that joy.  But I cannot argue with it either.  The pats have been too good for far too long and that desire to slay this dragon was shared by, well, everyone.  Never in sports has a team's demise been more celebrated.  We- the fans - earned that.  If I am going to celebrate when they overcome the impossible, I have to take the lumps when they prove to be all to often, all too human.  

But the Butler thing has me angry and disappointing.  The Pats dynasty was born in the shadow of Mike Martz's hubris to not use Marshall Faulk. And maybe... just maybe... the Pats' demise is there in Belichick and his hubris with Butler.  

 

And already "next year" looks strangely bleak... more on that in a moment... 

 

Grats one last time Eagles and their fans.  The Eagles earned this one; nobody can ever take it away from you.  Ever.  

[Rockroi]

So a few other things:

1. Gronk stated after the game that he is going to "evaluate" his options in the next few weeks on his future with the Pats.  He flat out said ""I’m definitely going to look at my future, for sure. I’m going to sit down the next couple of weeks, see where I’m at."  For the record, Gronk is under contract through 2019 so... his only option not to play the next two season is to retire.  Fuck that sounds great.  Brady's targets for 2018 will be concussed Brandon Cooks, surgically repaired Julian Edleman  and two or three undersized white guys.  Fucking great!  Its 2006 ALL OVER AGAIN!  

2.  (And this is full on conspiracy shit).  Supposedly as of this evening, McDaniels has not yet told the Patriots he will leave to take the head coaching job with the Indianapolis Colts.  Matt Patricia has already confirmed that he will become the next head coach of the Detroit Lions.

So, why would he do that?  Well, the major reason is that the Colts are fucking awful and Andrew Luck is cooked.  Who would want that?  But the other theory?

Belichick will retire.  And turn the team over to McDaniels.  McDaniels is not going anywhere if Belichick is leaving.

That may be in play.  

Suddenly, finally, MAYBE Satan's Kingdon has, at long last, fallen.... 

[Jace, Extat]

22 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

So a few other things:

1. Gronk stated after the game that he is going to "evaluate" his options in the next few weeks on his future with the Pats.  He flat out said ""I’m definitely going to look at my future, for sure. I’m going to sit down the next couple of weeks, see where I’m at."  For the record, Gronk is under contract through 2019 so... his only option not to play the next two season is to retire.  Fuck that sounds great.  Brady's targets for 2018 will be concussed Brandon Cooks, surgically repaired Julian Edleman  and two or three undersized white guys.  Fucking great!  Its 2006 ALL OVER AGAIN!  

2.  (And this is full on conspiracy shit).  Supposedly as of this evening, McDaniels has not yet told the Patriots he will leave to take the head coaching job with the Indianapolis Colts.  Matt Patricia has already confirmed that he will become the next head coach of the Detroit Lions.

So, why would he do that?  Well, the major reason is that the Colts are fucking awful and Andrew Luck is cooked.  Who would want that?  But the other theory?

Belichick will retire.  And turn the team over to McDaniels.  McDaniels is not going anywhere if Belichick is leaving.

That may be in play.  

Suddenly, finally, MAYBE Satan's Kingdon has, at long last, fallen.... 

If Mc'Deez Nutz bailed on the Colts in an agreement to get the NE job in 3 years that would be some LEGENDARY SHIT!

I'd root for that even as my team was left with a weird tattoo on their grundels

[DireWolfSpirit]

That whole Butler narrative is mysterious.

[the Greenleif Stark]

Fuck the Eagles and their fans, today is a terrible day in history

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

18 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

Fuck the Eagles and their fans, today is a terrible day in history

Why?

[the Greenleif Stark]

19 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Why?

Eagles fans(all Philly sports fans actually) are the worst fans in America, who else punches horses, throws snowballs at Santa?

[Corvinus85]

As just a casual NFL viewer, I was conflicted last night on who I wanted to win. On one hand, for someone like me, it gets boring when the same team continuously dominates a competition, but on the other hand, from what I've seen, the Eagles really have some terrible fans, and just on that note, I didn't want them to have nice things. Also during the game I saw that Bradley Cooper was an Eagles fan (and I kinda like him) + Julie Ertz, and I always want to see women's soccer national team winning. But then on the Patriots side, I saw Rex Burkhead, the only Husker there that I recognized, and he had a few good plays, so I was still pretty conflicted all the way to the end.

[DanteGabriel]

Good summary, Rock. The more I think about it the more pissed I am about Butler. This kinda reminds me of the benching of Tiquan Underwood in SB 46. Just an unnecessarily cruel thing to spring on a player at the last minute. Of course there's a difference between doing that to WR 4 and to CB 1A.

Yeah, Butler had an off year, but Bademosi was worse than irrelevant in this game: he gave up a third down conversion well on the Eagles side of the field on a drive that the Eagles scored a TD (might have been the first long-review catch). Bademosi had the receiver dead to rights four or five yards short of the first down and just whiffed the tackle. Butler might have made a difference right there.

Ah, well. Let's see what shakes out with coaches and players.

And hey, have fun deciding what to do with that White House visit, Eagles.

[Maithanet]

I was really ok with the Eagles winning this one.  It is hard to really take a lot of satisfaction from another team's continuing failure.  And I have a ton of friends who are Eagles fans, so it's nice that they're happy.

And the Super Bowl was a good game, even if it was my #2 and #3 least favorite teams playing.  The Eagles D was a lot worse than I expected, good thing their offense proved much better. 

Did anyone else think Collinsworth was a little off?  He said that both of the Eagles touchdowns looked incomplete, and I didn't agree at all.  I wasn't rooting for anybody, but I thought on the first one that the "bobble" was small enough that it wasn't clear whether he lost possession or not, so I fully expected the call to stand.  On the Ertz td, he took three steps before the Pats player touched him, so it makes sense he was a runner by that point.  The catch rule is screwed up enough that i wasn't totally sure that would be the ruling, but I expected the call to stand. 

[Week]

Congrats to the Eagles! It was an exciting game of no defense-all offense football where the bounces went the Eagles way because of good execution (Foles catch/Brady drop, Foles w/ 0 sacks/Brady strip-sack, etc.).

Oh well, now maybe I can move on from football.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Did anyone else think Collinsworth was a little off?  He said that both of the Eagles touchdowns looked incomplete, and I didn't agree at all.  I wasn't rooting for anybody, but I thought on the first one that the "bobble" was small enough that it wasn't clear whether he lost possession or not, so I fully expected the call to stand.  On the Ertz td, he took three steps before the Pats player touched him, so it makes sense he was a runner by that point.  The catch rule is screwed up enough that i wasn't totally sure that would be the ruling, but I expected the call to stand. 

Agreed. I haven't watched a ton of games this year, so I have no idea what the hell the consensus is anymore of what counts as a catch. But I thought on the Ertz TD he was so obviously a runner breaking the plane of the end zone that I couldn't fathom what Collinsworth was talking about. 

I also thought Collinsworth wasn't making a ton of sense in the fourth quarter when talking about what the Eagles offensive strategy should be; though the sound was a bit low at the party I was at. And he went back to the Foles TD catch a few too many times. It was an amazing play, and it was fun to see a few times, but he kept going on about it forever it seemed.

[Rockroi]

50 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Good summary, Rock. The more I think about it the more pissed I am about Butler. This kinda reminds me of the benching of Tiquan Underwood in SB 46. Just an unnecessarily cruel thing to spring on a player at the last minute. Of course there's a difference between doing that to WR 4 and to CB 1A.

Yeah, Butler had an off year, but Bademosi was worse than irrelevant in this game: he gave up a third down conversion well on the Eagles side of the field on a drive that the Eagles scored a TD (might have been the first long-review catch). Bademosi had the receiver dead to rights four or five yards short of the first down and just whiffed the tackle. Butler might have made a difference right there.

Ah, well. Let's see what shakes out with coaches and players.

And hey, have fun deciding what to do with that White House visit, Eagles.

Okay, sorry, but you are correct- Bademosi was really terrible.  I just like the guy - he plays with attitude and a chip on his shoulder.  I like that in some guys.  But, no, you are totally correct that he played terrible.  

With Butler more info: Rowe did not know he was starting until immediately before kickoff.  That is an absolutely terrible.  The Pats are NOTORIOUS for being big-prep people - they prepare everyone.  And If Rowe was NOT prepared to start but was told he was starting "minutes" before kick off then that means people THOUGHT Butler was starting.  And then he wasn't,

That tosses out illness/injury.  And leaves us with either 1) Hubris- Belichick thinking Butler was wrong for this game (HIGHLY unlikely because of Butler being in on 98% of the snaps) or 2) discipline.  But that would mean it was something that HAD to happen in the Days hours or even MINUTES before kick off.  That explains the benching; it explains the lack of forewarning and it explains the drastic action.  

There are a BUNCH of issues that COULD have lead to a drastic move like this.  One- the most sexy - is that Butler was NOT sick but missed the flight either because he was dealing with something or because he was a shit head.  Either way that stuck the team wrong.  so the Pats made the decision to bench Butler for one quarter or one series.  And Butler FLIPPED out!  He threw things or he took a swing at somebody or he had to e held back etc,  And when that happened, Belichick etc decided to bench Butler for the game.  That's why Butler was emotional after; that's why Rowe didn't know until right at KO.  

The second is not as sexy but could also be true.  What if Butler was dealing with something deeper and more troubling?  Anything from troubles at home to personal issues with family or possibly another problem like that.  And what if the team was working for him to get his shit together but it never worked.  And then he flies into Minn after the team.  And Belichick sees him at practice and knows he is not, mentally, in the game.  The team tries to work it out but its obvious the guy is not mentally there.  So maybe the team tells Rowe that he MAY be needed on Sunday but he is not told officially until just prior to kick off because the team ALSO did not know; they still wanted Butler to go, but he can't.  They pull the trigger at game time.  And the disaster erupts.

Both of those scenarios Belichick is a magnanimous human for not throwing Butler under the bus and Butler is a selfish prick.  I have no evidence to advance either of those, but NOTHING else (save hubris) makes much sense.  

And the word-on-the-street is that Greg Scianno is the Pats new D-coordinator.   

[Ramsay B.]

13 hours ago, Nictarion said:

Did that really just happen??

id be interested to see @Ramsay B. reaction to that commercial...

Ha, easily the highlight of the Giants season. It was good shit. OBJ doing the Baby laugh was unreal.

 

[Jaime L]

I think what impressed me most was Doug Pederson's constant aggressiveness. We're so used to NFL coaches making the lower expected value play simply because it's conservative that a coach actually maximizing his team's offensive performance is a revelation. The 4th down play was of course the highlight but he had Nick Foles attacking downfield all night and not just sticking with safe slants on RPOs. This was why the Eagles beat the Patriots and the Jags didn't. The former played to win while the latter played scared.

It's particularly impressive how aggressive Pederson was after all the (mostly undeserved) crap Kyle Shanahan got the year before by being too aggressive in the Superbowl with a big lead. I'd like to believe other NFL teams will learn from this but I won't hold my breath. 

 

[Bronn Stone]

59 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

I think what impressed me most was Doug Pederson's constant aggressiveness. We're so used to NFL coaches making the lower expected value play simply because it's conservative that a coach actually maximizing his team's offensive performance is a revelation. The 4th down play was of course the highlight but he had Nick Foles attacking downfield all night and not just sticking with safe slants on RPOs. This was why the Eagles beat the Patriots and the Jags didn't. The former played to win while the latter played scared.

 

As true as that was, I thought he left one on the table that could have iced it.  Second down with 2:03 on the clock in the 4th and the Eagles take a safe run.  I was hoping for play-action and an Agholor slant to the post as a dagger to end it right there.  Instead we got the safe run.  The clock was going to stop after the play either way.  It was time to try the finishing move.

[Bronn Stone]

I really don't get the narrative on the Eagles controversial touchdowns.  I think both of those plays should be used in training videos for the officials.  Clement's as an example of what is NOT a catch and Ertz's as a textbook example of what is.
 

A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

A: secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

B: touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

C: maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps

 

Clement bobbles the ball in between steps and only gets one foot down after finally capturing it.
Ertz takes two steps, is avoiding a tackler and only loses the ball after a lunge that crossed the plane.  He'd become a runner.

[Kalbear]

18 hours ago, l2 0 5 5 said:

The hit was clearly helmet to helmet.... on replay. I didn't think it looked helmet to helmet live. I'm ok with the no call as you can't look at every play in slow motion. Sucks to lose cooks. Hope he's alright. Jeffery making some insane catches. 

On this: apparently the hit was helmet to helmet - but it was as he was a runner, not a receiver, so those rules don't apply. 

[Bronn Stone]

The rule gets cut in half when people discuss it.  The flag is for a helmet to helmet against a defenseless player.  And a runner is expected to defend himself except in a very small number of circumstances.

Players in a defenseless posture are:

1. A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass (passing posture)
2. A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner. If the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player
3. The intended receiver of a pass in the action during and immediately following an interception or potential interception. If the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player.

   Note: Violations of this provision will be enforced after the interception, and the intercepting team will maintain possession.

4. A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped
5. A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air
6. A player on the ground
7. A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return (Also see Article 6(h) for additional restrictions against a kicker/punter)
8. A quarterback at any time after a change of possession (Also see Article 9(f) for additional restrictions against a quarterback after a change of possession)
9. A player who receives a “blindside” block when the path of the offensive blocker is toward or parallel to his own end line.
10. A player who is protected from an illegal crackback block (see Article 2)
11. The offensive player who attempts a snap during a Field Goal attempt or a Try Kick