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Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion No H8 M8 Just Gr8


The Anti-Targ

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7 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

I also liked Shuri and knew the actress(Letitia Wright) looked familiar. She was Nish from the Black Mirror episode, Black Museum.

She's also in season 2 of Humans, as the human girl pretending to be an android.  She was quite good in it.

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57 minutes ago, Corvinus said:
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See, I liked that Killmonger beat T'Challa in the ritual fight. At the time, Killmonger had more drive. He had spent his whole life preparing for that moment, while T'Challa had just become king and was more concerned with how to be a good king. He was regretful of what his father had done, and he underestimated Killmonger in what he was. The second time, their power levels were still equal, both had the Panther's abilities, but now T'Challa had the drive to win, as he told his father in the astral plane that he couldn't rest until he saved Wakanda from the monster they created.

Btw, there is a spoiler thread, these things could be best discussed there.

 

thanks for pointing me to the spoiler thread :)

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Looking like US opening weekend (3 days) will be in the top 5 opening weekends of all time. Given this is a 4-day weekend for the USA, which would push some % of potential 3-day opening weekend viewers into Monday this is a pretty incredible result.

Cinemascore, which is perhaps the objectively best audience opinion measure since no one gets to spam this viewer survey, gave it an A+. Sure, this will generally be skewed high because fans are a large % of people who go to a movie on opening weekend, so the Cinemascore would probably go down if it was a survey taken over the first 3 or 4 weekends of a movie's release. But still, not many movies get A+ Cinemascore, so it's a pretty good indication.

Has the anti-Disney/Marvel / Pro-DC down-voting campaign actually had its effect on the Rotten Tomatoes / IMDB / Metacritic audience score yet? Looks like no one is attempting to spam Metacritic, which is interesting. Seems like the haters don't rate Metacritic as having any kind of influence in the social conscience. Rotten Tomatoes has a similar number of audience ratings as Thor 3 and less than half the number of audience ratings as Civil War. And on IMDB BP has way fewer user votes than both Civil War and Thor 3. So all that suggests there hasn't been any substantial down-vote spammming. Or maybe RT and IMDB are actively monitoring audience ratings for BP and have worked out some kind of filter. Not sure how they'd do it, but it's possible.

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On 2/16/2018 at 4:54 AM, mormont said:

...You can't name 10 MCU films that can genuinely, honestly be called superior to this, so you're wrong. I can see arguments for two or three, maybe: I can imagine someone liking five or six better than this (which isn't the same as them being better), but 10 better MCU movies? There only are 18, and that's including The Incredible Hulk. This movie is in the bottom half? Not in any serious analysis. 

I'd have it in the top three, easily. 

I heretofore genuinely, honestly, & seriously list 10 films of the MCU that I find superior to Black Panther : Avengers, Cap1-3, GotG v1-2, Thor, Thor Ragnarok, Wonder Woman*, Iron Man, and Spider-Man Homecoming.

*Just seeing if you're paying attention.

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1 hour ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I heretofore genuinely, honestly, & seriously list 10 films of the MCU that I find superior to Black Panther : Avengers, Cap1-3, GotG v1-2, Thor, Thor Ragnarok, Wonder Woman*, Iron Man, and Spider-Man Homecoming.

*Just seeing if you're paying attention.

I love the first Thor film, though I found the first Cap film a bit dull. But the idea that either of those films is better than Black Panther is clearly not credible. I'm 100% sure you, personally, like them more. But they are not better films because you like them more. Same applies to GOTG2, and arguably Cap 3 and one or two others. You will not find a serious film critic who would say those are better-made films, because they're not. 

They're fine films, but any argument you can make for them, you can make for any Marvel film ever made, apart from maybe Avengers 2. They're not superior to BP on any sensible measure - acting, direction, writing, cinematography, design, spectacle, thematic strength, or (and you might say this is premature, but it seems to me inevitable given the box office numbers) cultural impact. 

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18 MCU movies. Jeebus. BP is certainly in the top half, IMO. 

I often think of it along the lines of the Howard Hawks rule of thumb for what makes a great movie:  three great scenes and no bad ones.  

I don't think any MCU film is genuinely _great_ in cinematic terms, but how close they get to the measure tells you how good they are. I think none of the MCU films have managed three truly great scenes in a single film, BP included. Many don't even have one. Most of them have avoided having any actually-bad scenes, OTOH (Thor has some real cheesiness to it, and I'll be honest, I'd say all three Thor films have at least one eye-rollingly bad scene.)

For real greatness in a Marvel-based film, have to look at Rami's Spider-Man 2, which also happens to have one of the best villains (and best-acted villains) in any Marvel-based film.

Wonder Woman vs. BP is another interesting one. They're very different in some ways. Wonder Woman is better structured in its first half (I really felt BP had a serious issue with its pacing in the first 30 minutes, and to a lesser degree its first hour minus the Seoul sequence), but WW's 3rd act suffered substantially from its reveal that the jejune bad guy was really not the big bad, but instead another entirely forgettable guy was the real bad guy (to some degree, this is again a comics problem -- WW has the least impressive "Rogue's Gallery" of the Big Three; only Maxwell Lord's heel turn in Infinite Crisis and comeuppance in THE OMAC PROJECT could really make a fine story, bent to a Wonder Woman focus... but I fear Netflix's Marvel's Jessica Jones  has closed off exploring manipulative telepaths for awhile, and in any case the cancelled Justice League: Mortal was supposed to use him as the main villain and I'm not sure the failure of that project might not have buried him for future use at the DCU)

Spoiler

Though that digression makes me realize -- what's next for BP? In Killmonger and Klaue, they basically got rid of BP's two most recognizable members of his particular gallery of enemies.Achebe, maybe, from Christopher Priest's run... fits nicely into the post-BP status quo of Wakanda-revealed and involving itself in the affairs of the wider world.

 

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18 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I heretofore genuinely, honestly, & seriously list 10 films of the MCU that I find superior to Black Panther : Avengers, Cap1-3, GotG v1-2, Thor, Thor Ragnarok, Wonder Woman*, Iron Man, and Spider-Man Homecoming.

*Just seeing if you're paying attention.

Let me see....

Civil War...Winter Soldier...Ragnarok...GoTG 1 and 2...Avengers....Iron Man...Homecoming...Captain America...Iron Man 3....Ultron/Black Panther...Antman/Dr Strange....Thor...Iron Man 2....Thor 2.

I think that is all of the Marvel movies and that would be the order I would probably put them in.  Even then, I still enjoy Thor 2 so to say it is the bottom of my list doesn't mean I don't like it.

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Thor 2 is easily the worst Marvel movie. Apart from anything else, it's astonishingly dull. It also proves, for good and all, that Hemsworth and Portman have zero chemistry: wastes Christopher Eccleston: and relegates a great actor and character in Stellan Skarsgard's Erik Selvig to being a childish caricature of mental illness played for cheap laughs. I can't think of a redeeming feature it possesses. 

Age of Ultron is over-long and badly structured, just a mess, and to put it on a par with Black Panther is ridiculous. And I'm not getting the love for GOTG2. It's fine. It's like a slightly inferior version of GOTG 1. It adds a character to the team (Mantis) but does nothing with her. Everyone else recaps their schtick from the first film. Nothing wrong with that, but putting that over original, interesting content like BP, Doctor Strange or The Avengers is clearly not an attempt at rating quality but a list of personal likes. 

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5 hours ago, mormont said:

Thor 2 is easily the worst Marvel movie. Apart from anything else, it's astonishingly dull. It also proves, for good and all, that Hemsworth and Portman have zero chemistry: wastes Christopher Eccleston: and relegates a great actor and character in Stellan Skarsgard's Erik Selvig to being a childish caricature of mental illness played for cheap laughs. I can't think of a redeeming feature it possesses. 

Age of Ultron is over-long and badly structured, just a mess, and to put it on a par with Black Panther is ridiculous. And I'm not getting the love for GOTG2. It's fine. It's like a slightly inferior version of GOTG 1. It adds a character to the team (Mantis) but does nothing with her. Everyone else recaps their schtick from the first film. Nothing wrong with that, but putting that over original, interesting content like BP, Doctor Strange or The Avengers is clearly not an attempt at rating quality but a list of personal likes. 

I think Iron Man 2 is my least favorite, but I do agree with your criticism of Thor 2. I do like its soundtrack and some of its action scenes, so it's above IM2 for me. 

As for GotG2, I think it's about as good as the first one. It has a better villain than the first one, there is good character chemistry, and the stuff with Yondu is pretty good. It just doesn't have that freshness, but I tend to be ok when a movie lacks that.

I have some small issues with Black Panther, but overall, I do think it's one of the better MCU movies.

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7 hours ago, mormont said:

but a list of personal likes. 

That's what ANY opinion is. There is no facts based formula you can use to determine which shitty Marvel movie is better than which other shitty Marvel movie. 

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8 hours ago, mormont said:

 

Thor 2 is easily the worst Marvel movie. Apart from anything else, it's astonishingly dull.

 



Nah. Cap 1 and Ant-Man are both much duller.

Then again, I am one of the few people remaining who actually likes Thor 2 (on release, opinion seemed much closer, but it hasn't gone down well in history).


I'm not sure what you thought was so interesting about Doctor Strange that it's unarguably better than Guardians 2 tbqh. It didn't break the Marvel formula nearly as much as I thought it could or should have. Could have gone a lot more weird than it did.

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6 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Then again, I am one of the few people remaining who actually likes Thor 2

There are dozens of us! I mean it deserves to be toward the bottom of any ranking but it's not the dour mess people often make it out to be. Main problem was the villain got like no screen-time or development at all. 

I liked the ending of Dr. Strange a lot. 

Not really MCU, but this website with all(?) the old Marvel cards from the 90's brought back a lot of memories. I had forgotten about so many of these characters. 

https://arena.willparedes.com/marvelcards/

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On 2/19/2018 at 2:59 AM, mormont said:

I love the first Thor film, though I found the first Cap film a bit dull. But the idea that either of those films is better than Black Panther is clearly not credible. I'm 100% sure you, personally, like them more. But they are not better films because you like them more. Same applies to GOTG2, and arguably Cap 3 and one or two others. You will not find a serious film critic who would say those are better-made films, because they're not. 

They're fine films, but any argument you can make for them, you can make for any Marvel film ever made, apart from maybe Avengers 2. They're not superior to BP on any sensible measure - acting, direction, writing, cinematography, design, spectacle, thematic strength, or (and you might say this is premature, but it seems to me inevitable given the box office numbers) cultural impact. 

First, kudos for appreciating the first Thor film. Second, you probably liked BP so much because the basis for much of its plot is derivative of Thor. I'm 100% sure BP is not a better film in no small part because its plot lacks originality. Not that Thor was overly original, but we're discussing in terms of the MCU here and not in cinema in general, and in terms of MCU films Thor broke a lot of ground.

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2 hours ago, RumHam said:

There are dozens of us! I mean it deserves to be toward the bottom of any ranking but it's not the dour mess people often make it out to be. Main problem was the villain got like no screen-time or development at all. 

I liked the ending of Dr. Strange a lot...

 

I almost put Dr. Strange on my Top 10 list instead of GotGv2. The ending of Dr. Strange is indeed great and arguably makes Stephen Strange the greatest hero in the MCU. However, the film as a whole felt rushed. It needed a bit more: a bit more background on the villain, a bit more training for Strange, a bit more of the Ancient One & other masters. Istill enjoyed the heck outta it.

Thor 2, however, I found myself actively bored. It has some great scenes, but it's probably tied with Iron Man 2 as my least favorite MCU film.

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2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Not really MCU, but this website with all(?) the old Marvel cards from the 90's brought back a lot of memories. I had forgotten about so many of these characters. 

https://arena.willparedes.com/marvelcards/

Wooooow.. you just punched some hard nostalgia buttons on me. I remember being fascinated with the Speedball card.

Edit: and that Sleepwalker card stands out in my memory which is so weird because I never read a comic with either Speedball or Sleepwalker but I specifically remember these cards.

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17 hours ago, mormont said:

Nothing wrong with that, but putting that over original, interesting content like BP, Doctor Strange or The Avengers is clearly not an attempt at rating quality but a list of personal likes

I'm pretty sure that's what those who have put it outside their top 10 MCU movies have done. So there's not much more to say really.

But regardless of individual opinions, it would seem that Black Panther is in for an impressive theatrical run. a 4-day opening of $242 Million probably means a $600 million+ final US box office. Even if he international box office does its usual thing with Black lead movies and does not deliver the $$ to the same extent as the USA, BP is still almost a dead certainty for $400 million from the rest of the world. So it will likely earn $1 billion in total. I was skeptical of it being able to hit $1 billion until I saw that $242M 4 day total. Once that was revealed $1 billion became the likely result.

$242M 4 day gross is 2nd all time behind The Force Awakens.

 

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Aren't we all talking about personal preference though?  I mean this isn't a review site.  This isn't film school.  This is a public message board in which fans of movies are discussing what they like.  People can make arguments about how this movie is better because of the acting or the art direction or whatever, but if I didn't enjoy as much as another movie, I am going to say so.

I for one have never said my opinion is more than that.  It's my opinion.  Just like everyone else who posts, posts their opinions.

Honestly Black Panther was an excellent movie, but I have come to expect nothing less from marvel.  They know how to do good movies.  Is it my personal favorite, no, but that is ok.  That doesn't take anything away from the movie.

As for Thor 2, I thought there was some good humor in it and there was some good scenes with Loki(hell every scene with Loki in all movies are good), but other than that there wasn't much memorable there.  

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