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Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion No H8 M8 Just Gr8


The Anti-Targ

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Yep, we have wide-ranging opinions on the MCU. Everyone loves Winter Soldier -I thought it was a fine spy yarn, but will never re-watch it. I enjoyed both Captain America and Thor's first movies more than most. I almost walked out of Ultron, I thought was so extravagantly bad. I've re watched GotG the most out of the lot by far, but thought the sequel was really disappointing and basically abandoned it with the Star Wars Prequels.

I don't think flashy movies basically made for adults embracing our childhood need to be debated as objectively comparable.

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5 hours ago, RumHam said:

Not really MCU, but this website with all(?) the old Marvel cards from the 90's brought back a lot of memories. I had forgotten about so many of these characters. 

https://arena.willparedes.com/marvelcards/

I loved these!! I remember my buddy getting a box of the series 2 cards when they first came out and opening all the packs. Seeing everyone's stats blew us away. I think this is the first time I saw Thanos too. 

I liked that the series 1 had some random made up win/loss record too. 

 

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15 hours ago, Relic said:

That's what ANY opinion is. 

Nonsense. If this were true, when I say 'I personally liked Thor more than Citizen Kane but can recognise it's not a better movie', I'd actually be saying 'I really do like Citizen Kane more but for some reason am fooling myself about this'. 

This notion that personal preference is the only criterion that exists and everything else is just smoke and mirrors is bollocks. There are objective criteria on which films can be assessed, and they apply to Marvel blockbusters just as much as arthouse films, and on those criteria, Black Panther is superior to the majority of previous films from Marvel. 

Case in point:

15 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I'm not sure what you thought was so interesting about Doctor Strange that it's unarguably better than Guardians 2 tbqh. It didn't break the Marvel formula nearly as much as I thought it could or should have. Could have gone a lot more weird than it did.

It could, and it's not necessarily that Strange is incredibly interesting or even that it's the film it could or should have been, but it does do something new and it is more impressive in visual and effects terms, for me.

I might be being unfair to GOTG2 because that film probably has better performances, but as much as I enjoyed GOTG2, it is very, very much GOTG, 2. Did you enjoy GOTG? Then you'll like GOTG2. It's more GOTG! That's all it does, really. That, for me, is something I don't necessarily enjoy less, but does lead to a lower ranking. 

6 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

First, kudos for appreciating the first Thor film. Second, you probably liked BP so much because the basis for much of its plot is derivative of Thor. 

Ah yes. Thor, the first film ever to do a story about a rival challenging for the throne. 

:rolleyes:

The plot of BP is no more derivative of Thor than Thor is derivative of Hamlet. Somewhat less, in fact. 

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8 hours ago, RumHam said:

x

Not really MCU, but this website with all(?) the old Marvel cards from the 90's brought back a lot of memories. I had forgotten about so many of these characters. 

https://arena.willparedes.com/marvelcards/

Hah. I have a few of those, including a bunch of the hologram cards. Hmm... also a Spawn chromium card, John Byrne's Next Men cards, some Topps cards from Mika Mignola's adaptation of Bram Stoker's Dracula, IIRC... fun. Just random stuff my dad sent me one year from when we collected comics.

You know, with Fantastic Four coming back into the MCU at last report, I'm not particularly keen on a FF film -- but a Silver Surfer film? I'd be open-minded about it. 

6 hours ago, WarGalley said:

Wooooow.. you just punched some hard nostalgia buttons on me. I remember being fascinated with the Speedball card.

Edit: and that Sleepwalker card stands out in my memory which is so weird because I never read a comic with either Speedball or Sleepwalker but I specifically remember these cards.

Speedball is a character that could be really fun on the screen, just in terms of his power. Has he ever been in an animated show, I wonder?

Most of my Speedball experience was in The New Warriors, where I actually had a subscription for the comic for at least the first couple of years (not pull box subscription, literal mailed-to-my-house subscription) when Mark Bagley was on art and Fabian Nicieza was writing. 

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3 hours ago, mormont said:

Nonsense. If this were true, when I say 'I personally liked Thor more than Citizen Kane but can recognise it's not a better movie', I'd actually be saying 'I really do like Citizen Kane more but for some reason am fooling myself about this'. 

This notion that personal preference is the only criterion that exists and everything else is just smoke and mirrors is bollocks. There are objective criteria on which films can be assessed, and they apply to Marvel blockbusters just as much as arthouse films, and on those criteria, Black Panther is superior to the majority of previous films from Marvel. 

Haha, alright man. In which case i can just as easily say that ALL of these movies are flaming cans of dog shit when compared to the Godfather 2, and laugh at these debates about which dog shit is better than the other turds. What I'm getting at is that is seems like a massive stretch to simply call other people's opinions "nonsense" and then go on to state unequivocally that Guardians of the Fucking Galaxy 2 is better/worse than Captain America 1. 

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Seems to me a lot of people would say the same about comparing GRRM's work to, say, Terry Goodkind. But if we all thought that was a 'massive stretch', we wouldn't even be here to have this conversation. 

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Just now, mormont said:

Seems to me a lot of people would say the same about comparing GRRM's work to, say, Terry Goodkind. But if we all thought that was a 'massive stretch', we wouldn't even be here to have this conversation. 

If someone tells me Goodkind is better than GRRM I'd probably say they were crazy, and i might never even talk to them again out of fear of being murdered and sacrificed to some giant chicken deity, but i wouldn't insist they were wrong.

Can you compare Steinbeck to Hemingway and contrast their different styles? Sure. Can you form opinions about which one you prefer? Again yes. Can you state, as a fact, that one is better than the other? I'd say no.  

I'll get off my soapbox after one last point. Most of the arguments (and the divisive nature of the internet in general) are caused by our seeming inability to differentiate fact from opinion, and to state our opinion in a fashion that furthers debate instead of shutting said debate down. 

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2 hours ago, Relic said:

If someone tells me Goodkind is better than GRRM I'd probably say they were crazy, and i might never even talk to them again out of fear of being murdered and sacrificed to some giant chicken deity, but i wouldn't insist they were wrong.

Yeah, but you know you're very much in the minority and that this board was founded and is sustained by a large mass of people who differ from you there. 

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Can you compare Steinbeck to Hemingway and contrast their different styles? Sure. Can you form opinions about which one you prefer? Again yes. Can you state, as a fact, that one is better than the other? I'd say no.  

I'll let the English department know they can all go home.

 

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16 hours ago, mormont said:

Ah yes. Thor, the first film ever to do a story about a rival challenging for the throne. 

:rolleyes:

The plot of BP is no more derivative of Thor than Thor is derivative of Hamlet. Somewhat less, in fact. 

I addressed that in the second part of the post you quoted, which you deleted in your response. Anyway, BP<Thor. 'Nuff said.

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18 hours ago, mormont said:

Nonsense. If this were true, when I say 'I personally liked Thor more than Citizen Kane but can recognise it's not a better movie', I'd actually be saying 'I really do like Citizen Kane more but for some reason am fooling myself about this'. 

This notion that personal preference is the only criterion that exists and everything else is just smoke and mirrors is bollocks. There are objective criteria on which films can be assessed, and they apply to Marvel blockbusters just as much as arthouse films, and on those criteria, Black Panther is superior to the majority of previous films from Marvel. 

Case in point:

It could, and it's not necessarily that Strange is incredibly interesting or even that it's the film it could or should have been, but it does do something new and it is more impressive in visual and effects terms, for me.

I might be being unfair to GOTG2 because that film probably has better performances, but as much as I enjoyed GOTG2, it is very, very much GOTG, 2. Did you enjoy GOTG? Then you'll like GOTG2. It's more GOTG! That's all it does, really. That, for me, is something I don't necessarily enjoy less, but does lead to a lower ranking. 

Ah yes. Thor, the first film ever to do a story about a rival challenging for the throne. 

:rolleyes:

The plot of BP is no more derivative of Thor than Thor is derivative of Hamlet. Somewhat less, in fact. 

Your points may be valid if we were in film school, learning about the finer points of what makes a good movie and what makes a bad movie.

But on this forum, if someone wants to rate BP lower in their MCU list than you, it's a case of, "Whatever man, I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion."

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On 2/20/2018 at 10:02 PM, PetyrPunkinhead said:

First, kudos for appreciating the first Thor film. Second, you probably liked BP so much because the basis for much of its plot is derivative of Thor. I'm 100% sure BP is not a better film in no small part because its plot lacks originality. Not that Thor was overly original, but we're discussing in terms of the MCU here and not in cinema in general, and in terms of MCU films Thor broke a lot of ground.

Thinking on this..... I'd say BP oddly enough (up until the battle) is much more derivative of Rocky 3 (And whatever Rocky 3 was I'm sure derivative of).

Let's see.... T'challa/Rocky beats a tough guy (Awesome Barking Guy/Apollo), becomes King/Champ.  First combat as King/Champ, protagonist fails/loses in a situation that ultimately doesn't matter (Klaw/Thunderlips).  Gets challenged by badass new guy on scene, Killmonger/Clubber.  Head Priest/Coach advises not to take the fight, then when fight is taken Head Priest/Coach dies and T'Challa/Rocky gets their ass kicked.  Then T'Challa/Rocky goes to recuperate/train with the guy he defeated at the start (ABG/Apollo).  Comes back and defeats the new guy becomes King/Champ again.

The real question, will BP solve an equivalent to communism in the sequel?

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2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Thinking on this..... I'd say BP oddly enough (up until the battle) is much more derivative of Rocky 3 (And whatever Rocky 3 was I'm sure derivative of).

Let's see.... T'challa/Rocky beats a tough guy (Awesome Barking Guy/Apollo), becomes King/Champ.  First combat as King/Champ, protagonist fails/loses in a situation that ultimately doesn't matter (Klaw/Thunderlips).  Gets challenged by badass new guy on scene, Killmonger/Clubber.  Head Priest/Coach advises not to take the fight, then when fight is taken Head Priest/Coach dies and T'Challa/Rocky gets their ass kicked.  Then T'Challa/Rocky goes to recuperate/train with the guy he defeated at the start (ABG/Apollo).  Comes back and defeats the new guy becomes King/Champ again.

The real question, will BP solve an equivalent to communism in the sequel?

Man that is pretty dead on. Add in that Kilmonger was there, just at the end, when BP battled  Klaw/Thunderlips, as was Clubber, who was in the crowd observing. Even stranger when you realize Micheal B Jordan played Killmonger, and Apollo's son in Creed.

Saw BP the other day and liked most of it, thought the first challenge scene at the waterfall was just silly as hell. Thought it was pretty good and will see any sequel that follows.

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6 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

I addressed that in the second part of the post you quoted, which you deleted in your response. 

No, I'm afraid you really didn't. You think you did, but you didn't. 

You noted that Thor isn't really that original, but my point was that there is only one (pretty broad) similarity that I can see. You're out here telling me that I probably only liked BP because 'much of its plot' is 'derivative' of Thor and it 'lacks originality', but you don't bother to cite any evidence. You're just taking a random, unjustified swipe at the film, not offering any sort of critique. 

BP's story does not lack originality. There are no important similarities between the films' plots: any that exist are only in the broadest terms, the kind where you could probably accuse any film featuring a royal family of having ripped off Thor. 

4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Your points may be valid if we were in film school, learning about the finer points of what makes a good movie and what makes a bad movie.

But on this forum, if someone wants to rate BP lower in their MCU list than you, it's a case of, "Whatever man, I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion."

Of course people are entitled to their opinions, but other people are entitled to point out the difference between that and an objective assessment of whether something's good or not. Why on earth wouldn't they be? 

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On 2/20/2018 at 7:49 PM, RumHam said:

Not really MCU, but this website with all(?) the old Marvel cards from the 90's brought back a lot of memories. I had forgotten about so many of these characters. 

https://arena.willparedes.com/marvelcards/

That's pretty sweet.  Pretty sure my brother and I have all of Series' 1-3 lying around somewhere.  Don't recognize Series 4 or 5 at all.  Guess that means I could literally pinpoint when my childhood died.

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On 2/22/2018 at 4:20 AM, mormont said:

Of course people are entitled to their opinions, but other people are entitled to point out the difference between that and an objective assessment of whether something's good or not. Why on earth wouldn't they be? 

Is this for real?  When on earth was an "objective" standard developed to evaluate films?  And, more importantly, please specify such a standard.

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Makes sense for a pivotal movie in a long running globally successful franchise to be day and date world wide. I wonder if Marvel will make all of it's movies world wide day and date from now on.

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