Marvel Cinematic Universe General Discussion No H8 M8 Just Gr8

[polishgenius]

41 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

Possibly a celestial being like Galactus though I think he lacks character.

I think with Galactus it's tricky because he has character but you can't introduce it without first showing him as the big force-of-nature threat, and it'll be difficult to paint him as different from Thanos.

They will though, but longer term. Galactus needs time to build up same as Thanos.

[Rhom]

55 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

I hadn't considered the idea of a multi-movie overarching villain for Phase 4 like Thanos because.. what's going to top Thanos and the Infinity War? I could see Doctor Doom. Possibly a celestial being like Galactus though I think he lacks character. We're already getting Dark Phoenix round 2 and I hope we don't get a round 3 (even if it is Marvel Studios doing the storytelling). Ditto with Apocalypse. So who's left?

Hmmmm... I was about to ask "Are we getting Dark Phoenix though?" after having seen an article just a couple weeks ago about it being delayed, but then I see that it was supposed to release in November '18 and moved to April '19.  So I guess that means its been filmed and potential purchase be damned.  I also just saw that New Mutants was pushed back by almost a full year to do reshoots this summer and add a whole new character.  Hmph.

I wish Fox would put basically everything scheduled to release after Deadpool 2 into hiatus and let the MCU take it from here.

I feel like there's a perfect opportunity to start introducing Mutants as a side effect of the Infinity Stones.  We already saw the Mind Gem used to create Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.  If you want some older Mutants like Apocalypse and the Horsemen or even Magneto; maybe say they were a side effect of another time that an Infinity Stone visited Earth.

I really don't want to see the Junior X-Men do Dark Phoenix.  I really liked First Class and even DoFP; but they really messed up with everyone they cast for Apocalypse.

Phoenix/Dark Phoenix would be near perfect as the set up for an entire Phase of movies.  Lets get to know these characters.  Let them breathe a bit... then crush us by taking away one that we really love.   

[Rhom]

Interesting... as I went down the rabbit hole about the DP/NM delays, I came on an article of speculation on ways the MCU could introduce the X-Men.  Most of them were garbage in my opinion, but I liked three of them.

One was basically what I said, make them a side effect of the Infinity Stones.

Another was just to reboot completely with the X-Men much like Spider-Man (I think this is probably most likely).

The one that I found most intriguing, but maybe a bit unwieldy... After the events of Dark Phoenix which is set in 1992, Professor X basically performs a mindwipe on everyone on the planet to make them forget mutants.  So you'd have a situation where the X-Men had actually been protecting Earth long before the introduction of Ironman. 

[WarGalley]

Oops.

[WarGalley]

Let's try this again.

41 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Hmmmm... I was about to ask "Are we getting Dark Phoenix though?" after having seen an article just a couple weeks ago about it being delayed, but then I see that it was supposed to release in November '18 and moved to April '19.  So I guess that means its been filmed and potential purchase be damned.  I also just saw that New Mutants was pushed back by almost a full year to do reshoots this summer and add a whole new character.  Hmph.

I wish Fox would put basically everything scheduled to release after Deadpool 2 into hiatus and let the MCU take it from here.

I feel like there's a perfect opportunity to start introducing Mutants as a side effect of the Infinity Stones.  We already saw the Mind Gem used to create Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.  If you want some older Mutants like Apocalypse and the Horsemen or even Magneto; maybe say they were a side effect of another time that an Infinity Stone visited Earth.

I really don't want to see the Junior X-Men do Dark Phoenix.  I really liked First Class and even DoFP; but they really messed up with everyone they cast for Apocalypse.

Phoenix/Dark Phoenix would be near perfect as the set up for an entire Phase of movies.  Lets get to know these characters.  Let them breathe a bit... then crush us by taking away one that we really love.   

 

26 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Interesting... as I went down the rabbit hole about the DP/NM delays, I came on an article of speculation on ways the MCU could introduce the X-Men.  Most of them were garbage in my opinion, but I liked three of them.

One was basically what I said, make them a side effect of the Infinity Stones.

Another was just to reboot completely with the X-Men much like Spider-Man (I think this is probably most likely).

The one that I found most intriguing, but maybe a bit unwieldy... After the events of Dark Phoenix which is set in 1992, Professor X basically performs a mindwipe on everyone on the planet to make them forget mutants.  So you'd have a situation where the X-Men had actually been protecting Earth long before the introduction of Ironman. 

Yeah I think they're too far along in Dark Phoenix production to stop it now. I do agree they just need to hand over all other production plans and licenses to Marvel Studios immediately so that they can plan how to integrate X-Men and Fantastic Four into the current universe. Once Dark Phoenix is done, I think it's best to just forget about that franchise and reboot once more (and scrap the current cast). 

And I like the idea of the Infinity Wars being the cause of mutation. You could have Infinity War Part 2 ending with the birth of mutants. Also the space settings in the current Marvel universe give an opening for the Fantastic Four to be created as modern humans begin to venture offworld. You could bring in a Krull/Skree war at some point. Apocalypse can come from space, the future, or be another Infinity Stone side effect. I think Magneto's backstory with the Holocaust needs to be sacrificed despite it being a core part of his motivations and sympathy. I don't see how you pull it off without it feeling like a writer's trick. You'd have to substitute some other Baron-Zemo / Killmonger like purpose into his character. 

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, WarGalley said:

Let's try this again.

 

Yeah I think they're too far along in Dark Phoenix production to stop it now. I do agree they just need to hand over all other production plans and licenses to Marvel Studios immediately so that they can plan how to integrate X-Men and Fantastic Four into the current universe. Once Dark Phoenix is done, I think it's best to just forget about that franchise and reboot once more (and scrap the current cast). 

And I like the idea of the Infinity Wars being the cause of mutation. You could have Infinity War Part 2 ending with the birth of mutants. Also the space settings in the current Marvel universe give an opening for the Fantastic Four to be created as modern humans begin to venture offworld. You could bring in a Krull/Skree war at some point. Apocalypse can come from space, the future, or be another Infinity Stone side effect. I think Magneto's backstory with the Holocaust needs to be sacrificed despite it being a core part of his motivations and sympathy. I don't see how you pull it off without it feeling like a writer's trick. You'd have to substitute some other Baron-Zemo / Killmonger like purpose into his character. 

I don't think you hand over the keys to the Ferarri until the money is in the bank. Earliest Fox would consider letting Disney start using the characters would be after regulatory approval of the transaction is received. Before that, not a chance.

I'm not keen on the mind-wipe idea for explaining why no one knows about mutants yet in the MCU. Either they've always been there, but managed to stay off the grid, or the infinity war activates the long dormant X gene. I could see them weaving mutants in ancient times as part of the MCU, and that a sorcerer supreme of old figured out a way to put the X-gene into a dormant state, and imprisoning mutants such as Apocalypse.  As part of the X-men reveal Dr. Strange could discover ancient records talking about mutants.

[RumHam]

The people at Fox have claimed that they're going ahead with everything they've been working on regardless of the deal (maybe because of contracts and stuff?) That's quite a few more movies in the current X-Men universe. Though some of the lesser developed ones will probably be scrapped. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men_(film_series)#Films_in_development

There's also Noah Hawley's Dr. Doom movie which I hope he does get a chance to make. Maybe they can fit that into the MCU. I don't know how long Phase 4 is supposed to last but we may not see the F4 and X-Men in the MCU until Phase 5 at this rate. 

[The Mother of The Others]

Uhhhhhhh, best excuse for apocalypse and x- men showing up is if the infinity stone jumps us into another universe where that stuff is part of the history everybody knows.   Avoids the ground-laying work Fox already "accomplished."   Avengers 4 could just include a line from a smarty pants character like, "Hey guys, the universal constants are different."    "Does that mean we didn't undo all the damage Thanos did to our universe?"    "No.  It means...this isn't our universe."    And then leave it at that until the deal closes and you can start showing people the differences.

[Bastard of Boston]

RE: Carrie Coon. While using her in a small role is a waste, you gotta admire the fact that Marvel is casting legit actors in bit parts. Look at Sterling K. Brown in Black Panther. He left a significant impression with only a few lines. The Black Order might have small roles, but if Coon is any indication, they'll make it count.

RE: Mutants in the MCU. I don't see any scenario where Marvel Studios keeps anything from the FoX-Men. We saw it with Spider-Man. It's too much baggage. They'll throw everything out and start from scratch. People can't forget what a mess Fox continuity is. It's not worth having.

In addition, there's no real need to have the stones create mutants. Look at the first X-Men film. Mutants existed in secret for decades until Magneto's attack revealed them. You can just as easily portray mutants in the same way when brought into the MCU. Maybe SHIELD knew about them, but the world at large didn't.

They could even use mutants to shoehorn the Illuminati into the MCU. Maybe Charles' machinations helped keep mutants secret, along with cooperation from Peggy Carter, Howard Stark, Nick Fury, and all the rest. Maybe both Charles and Magneto worked together to take in mutants and train them until a recent schism prompted Magneto to go rogue and reveal mutants.

I don't think folding mutants into the narrative will be a huge stretch. I also think having them be a recent creation is a mistake, as having them operate underground is much more interesting. I always loved the way First Class and DoFP had mutants play roles in important historic events, like Kennedy's assassination.

Also, I saw Quiet Place over the weekend, and I too am now obsessed with the idea of JKrasi and Emily Blunt playing Reed and Sue.

[Which Tyler]

7 hours ago, WarGalley said:

 I think Magneto's backstory with the Holocaust needs to be sacrificed despite it being a core part of his motivations and sympathy. I don't see how you pull it off without it feeling like a writer's trick. You'd have to substitute some other Baron-Zemo / Killmonger like purpose into his character. 

Bare in mind that I've never read the comics.

Why does Magneto's backstory have to specifically be the Nazi Holocaust? There have been plenty of more recent genocides after all, just not as famous or long lasting. Isn't here anything about his character growth that couldn't apply to a Rwandan Tutsi? Bosnian Muslims? Cambodian victim of the Khmer Rouge? East Timorian under Indonesian rule? Etc etc.

You could pretty much pick the attrocity based on how old you want him, and could definitely use it to add some much-needed diversity.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

Why does Magneto's backstory have to specifically be the Nazi Holocaust?

For one thing, the Holocaust occupies a place in Western culture that none of those other genocides do. You can argue about whether they should, but they don't. Lose the Holocaust origin, and you lose some of the cultural resonance.

You would also be erasing one of the few prominently Jewish characters in modern superhero storytelling, and one of the very few where that identity is critical to the character and not just a minor footnote. Sure, you'd be making him another minority. But I don't think that makes up for it.

Marvel have already de-aged Magneto at least twice that I can think of to keep the Holocaust origin alive. They clearly don't think it can be done away with.

What would be a fascinating story is an older Magneto dealing with another character who is a survivor from one of those events. Maybe mentoring them.  

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I don't think you hand over the keys to the Ferarri until the money is in the bank.

Very true. People keep talking about the Disney/Fox deal as if it were already completed. It isn't, and it would be outright negligent for Disney or Fox to behave as if it were.

[Myrddin]

Magneto can be a survivor from Sokovia, He's been missing for a few years, looking for his kids...

Joking aside, Scarlet Witch could be the key to bringing Magneto into the story. 

[polishgenius]

I don't think they should merge the X-Men into the main universe, to be honest. The way the MCU has been set up from the start just makes me feel it'd be awkward to fit them in. Their themes wouldn't work as well if you introduce mutants as a fresh thing. I don't think Rhom's idea works great either- we already know that at least two of the Infinity Gem have been on Earth for ages.

 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

For one thing, the Holocaust occupies a place in Western culture that none of those other genocides do. You can argue about whether they should, but they don't. Lose the Holocaust origin, and you lose some of the cultural resonance.

Also, the Holocaust was systematic in a way that most of those others weren't, which plays into his reaction to government attempts to regulate mutants. Change his origin and you have to change his personality, and at that point you're not really doing Magneto anymore.


I like the idea of him mentoring a younger survivor from one of the others, but long-term it'd still have to be handled with care. I mean, it's something Marvel are going to have to deal with eventually- at some stage it's just not going to be plausible to have a Holocaust survivor be around. Not without Captain-America gimmickry which I'm not sure is a good idea for Magneto either.

[mormont]

21 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Also, the Holocaust was systematic in a way that most of those others weren't

I think that's questionable, at best. 

21 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I like the idea of him mentoring a younger survivor from one of the others, but long-term it'd still have to be handled with care. I mean, it's something Marvel are going to have to deal with eventually- at some stage it's just not going to be plausible to have a Holocaust survivor be around. 

We're well past that stage in both comics and films. The comics dealt with it by de-aging him, as noted: the films just don't seem to care about plausible passage of time. 

[DaveSumm]

19 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I don't think they should merge the X-Men into the main universe, to be honest. The way the MCU has been set up from the start just makes me feel it'd be awkward to fit them in. Their themes wouldn't work as well if you introduce mutants as a fresh thing.

Yea I’d have to agree, there’s no elegant way of doing it. Depending on how much you care about TV canon, we have people in the Netflix-verse talking about being ‘one of them’ as if super powered beings are one homogenous group, from metal suits to Norse gods to radioactive green fellas. Then we have what is pretty much the X-Men origin story with the word ‘mutant’ replaced with ‘Inhuman’ in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. It’s hard to picture anyone caring about the semantic differences between mutants and other forms of powered people, and so what unites the X-Men? They just like hanging out together?

[polishgenius]

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

I think that's questionable, at best.

Systematic might be the wrong word, but none of the others had the level of bureaucracy and governmental process of dehumanising the victims that the Holocaust involved.

[Rhom]

Maybe Magneto could be the child of Holocaust survivors.  Takes away a bit of the “punch” perhaps, but also makes the conflict generational.

[Myrddin]

We already have two people from WWII still young and hale. No reason Magneto could've been frozen/put in cryo storage too. 

Assuming we're talking Spiderman level reboot, I do like the idea of the X-Men having been around for awhile in the background. If Cap Marvel has been around since the 90's and no one seems to know, X-Men, Moorlocks, and random mutants could be living in the shadows. Mags getting released/unfrozen, forms his little brotherhood, prep school students with a bald professor show up, and off we go.

There's also a precedent of super powered people not in the limelight. Dr. Strange and his predecessors, and I guess Cap Marvel (since her first movie is set int he 90's). 

[Which Tyler]

Whilst I agree that the Nazi holocaust was on a different scale - and even more so in terms of the Western Pyche; I'm not convinced you could really say that the Bosnian or East Timorian genocides didn't have the beurocracy and governmental process - especially East Timor.

 

Ultimately, and IMO as a non-reader; the Holocaust ended 73 years ago, you're not going to have a survivor coming out as having super powers now without yet more shenanigans with time. I'd also suggest that you kinda want your heroes to be somewhere in their 30s at the latest when they start making waves; so we need to be looking at events in the 90s that could "mimic" the holocaust in terms of character motivation.

[The BlackBear]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

It’s hard to picture anyone caring about the semantic differences between mutants and other forms of powered people, and so what unites the X-Men? They just like hanging out together?

Being hated and feared, it's at the start of every X-Men story. People are scared of Mutants replacing them, they're increasing in number, and they're clearly more powerful. Homo Sapiens replaced the Neanderthal, and in turn Mutants will replace humans, if they aren't kept in check. This isn't helped by folk like Magneto going around telling people that mutants are superior to humans.

Mutants are stranger than most heroes as well, who by and large look primarily human. Then just plain old bigotry, and a fair bit of religious intolerance. There's the gay parallel for instance, suddenly and without warning around puberty the child you raised isn't, just the child you raised. It's something different, and to some people that's scary.

The X-Men, are there to protect mutants, and to prove to humans that they aren't a threat, they're fighting for all people. Plus the X lends itself to team names and costumes.