Faegon, Varys, Daenerys and Barristan

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

The war of the ninepenny kings happened 40 years ago in the timeline. 

My Grandpa fought in the Big One. He's gone now, but once about 25 years ago or so, he traded in his Cadillac and bought a Lexus. My mother (whom he did not meet until she was nearly two since he deployed when my grandma was pregnant) turned to me and said, "I guess the war is finally over." Soon after, when it was time to trade in her Pontiac, she bought a Honda. Trust me, those who fight, their children, and their grandchildren remember. 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

And here's my question. If Aegon is a fake, how many people in the Golden Company know that? 

From Franklyn Flowers in The Lost Lord, Dance 24, we learn that Homeless Harry Strickland, the Captain-General of the Golden Company, told his officers that they would meet Jon Connington near Volantis. Should we assume that Homeless Harry told his officers anything else?

Homeless Harry says they were losing money and refusing contracts, including the opportunity to go to war against Daenerys Targaryen, which the officers would have been glad to do. If they would have been glad to go to war against Daenerys Targaryen, why would they be willing to lose money to go to war for Aegon Targaryen? The contract was writ in blood. Homeless Harry adds that Myles Toyne sealed the secret pact, apparently between Illyrio and the Golden Company, and Homeless Harry at least states that he would honor it, and apparently the officers would too. 

Jon Connington senses unease from some of the officers of the Golden Company, and he attributes it to the cloud under which he departed twelve years ago, but the reader should wonder about this, since we really don't know what the men have been told about his return with the noble lad. 

Rolly joined the Golden Company at 16. He smiths for a few years. (3-4, so he's about 20?) And then Harry Strickland, one of the highest officers, takes him on as squire.

"When Griff sent word downriver that he needed someone to help train his son to arms, Harry sent him me."

Myles Toyne has only been dead four years. (The Lost Lord, Dance 24) and we can assume that Aegon began training to arms before he was 12, which strongly suggests that Harry knew about Griff and Young Griff before he became Captain General. 

This at least suggests that the highest officers of the Golden Company have known about Aegon for some time. 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Even if the knowledge is contained to a few officers, the rest of the company believe they are invading Westeros in support of a Targaryen. 

You are not alone in that very reasonable assessment. 

[Megorova]

I have a Blackfyre conspiracy theory, in which Barristan Selmy is a key figure.

Spoiler

When Aenys Blackfyre (son of Daemon I Blackfyre, brother of Calla Blackfyre and nephew of her husband Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, founder of Golden Company) came to 7K, to attend Great Council, on which Aegon V was crowned, he came to Westeros with someone from his family. By the time of his execution by Lord Bloodraven, Aenys was 37 years old. So most likely he already had children and maybe even grandchildren.

Could be that Aenys brough with him either his wife, or one of his sisters (Calla Blackfyre, or Daemon's other daughter), or his niece (maybe daughter of Calla and Bittersteel, or some other female Blackfyre). Could even be that his wife was also either his sister, or his niece (like for example Calla was not only Bittersteel's wife, she was also his niece).

Then, when Aenys went to King's Landing, he left his relative in Harvest Hall (castle of Selmy family), for safety purposes. So when he was executed prior Great Council, his relative had to stay with Selmy family for several years. Either it was an adult female, or a male child. If it was a female, then could be that while staying in Westeros, she gave birth to a child. Father of that child was either Aenys Blackfyre, or some other Blackfyre, or maybe young Lord Selmy. Or if it was a male child, then it was son or grandson of Aenys Blackfyre, or maybe son of his niece or nephew.

This baby was given name Barristan Selmy. And his Blackfyre mother is Quaithe. Jeyne Swann was his lover, and she is mother of Barristan's son fAegon. Currently she is using name Septa Lemore. Thus Barristan, fAegon, Quaithe and Varys (who is also a Blackfyre) are relatives.

Barristan is either a 100% pure blood Blackfyre, or he is only half Blackfyre thru his mother, and his father is Lord Selmy. Either way he was rased by Selmys family. And when Bittersteel came to Westeros with Blackfyres Fourth Rebellion, they came there not only to avenge death of Aenys, but also to retrive Barristan and his mother. Quaithe went back to Essos, but she left her son in 7K, because she didn't wanted him to be involved with all those problems of Blackfyres family.

Thus when Barristan killed Maelys the Monstrous, last Blackfyre from male line, he was actually avenging death of his brother/or half-brother(?) Daemon, cousin of Maelys.

Why did Aenys Blackfyre left his family member with Selmys family? - Because Selmys were from Dornish Marches, and Marcher lords were supporters of Blackfyres. Among other Marcher lords, that are supporters of Blackfyres, are House Swann and House Peake. Members from both of those families are taking active part in current events of ASOIAF. 

For example Balon Swann is currently one of Kingsguards at King's Landing. He's working for Blackfyres. Jeyne Swann/Septa Lemore, mother of fAegon, is Balon's close relative. In his childhood Barristan Selmy served as squire of Lord Manfred Swann. Until he participated as a mystery knight in a tournament at Blackhaven. There he met Targaryens, and "fell in love" with them, same as prior him Lord Bloodraven. Barristan became supporter of Targaryens, and loyally served to them for many years. In second novel from Dunc & Egg series, ser Eustas Osgrey (who was supporter of Blackfyres, and participated in their First Rebellion, and three (or four) of his sons died on Redgrass Field, fighting for Daemon I Blackfyre) bragged to Dunc that in the past, members of his family were marrying with many notable Houses of 7K, and among those houses he listed House Swann. All of Houses that he mentioned there, were supporters of Blackfyres.

Mandon Moore and Gerold Dayne are also working for Blackfyres. What connects them is two things - 1. Balon Swann, and 2. fake assassination attempts on Lannisters.

Varys ordered Mandon Moore to assault Tyrion. But not to kill him, only wound and mutilate him a bit. And thus Mandon slashed off Tyrion's nose. The same thing was ordered by Blackfyres to Gerold Dayne - he pretended that he's going to kill Myrcella, but he only cut off her ear. The point of both attacks was to turn Lannisters against each other. Tyrion thought that it was Cersei, who ordered Mandor to kill him. And Cersei thought that attack on Myrcella was Tyrion's doing. But actually both things were done by people of Blackfyres/Varys.

Another connection between Barristan, Blackfyres and fAegon - Barristan saved Jayne Swann from assault of Kingswood Brotherhood. This happened aproximately at the same period, when was conceived real Aegon. At that time there was a red comet seen above King's Landing. Blackfyres (Quaithe) knew about the prophecy about the Prince that was promised, they knew that there will be that comet, and they thought that it will be That comet (while actually That comet appeared many years later, shortly after birth of actual Prince that was promised - Rhaego, son of Daenerys Targaryen and Khal Drogo. Rhaego is alive, and he's going to be dragonrider of Rhaegel. Now he is either with Quaithe in Asshai, or in Vaes Dothak.) Blackfyres needed a Blackfyre prince/princess to be conceived at the time of the comet, and thus Quaithe sent her people to her son Barristan. She found a suitable woman (Jeyne Swann), and created a situation in which Jeyne was able to seduce Barristan, and got pregnant. Nine months later fAegon was born. Afterwards his mother became septa (Lemore), and it wasn't hard for her to impersonate one, because previously she used to travel with a septa of her own. And Barristan saved them both - Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa (which is recorded in Barristan's entry in the White Book of Kingsguars) - from Kingswood Brotherhood, whose leader was Simon Toyne (he was working for Blackfyres, and assault on Lady Jeyne was faked). Simon's relative, Myles Toyne, also known as Blackheart, was a captain-general of the Golden Company. He was ordered by Varys (or Illyrio) to "accidentally" meet with Jon Connington, that recently arrived to Essos, and get him join Golden Company, to keep an eye of Blackfyres over him. Because they planned to use him later for their Plan B - Project fAegon. While Plan A was to use real Targaryens as pawns of Blackfyres, to get Blackfyres to Iron Throne - Viserys and Daenerys.         

Blackfyres infiltrated 7K years prior Robert's Rebellion. For their Sixth Rebellion they planned to ruin 7K from within, and overthrow Targaryens. That was the reason why Varys joined royal court of King Aerys. But their original plans fell apart because of Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, and ensuing Rebellion. Though many of people working for Blackfyres, even when their original plans were canceled, stayed where they were (nearly everywhere in 7K).

 

List of people that work for Blackfyres:

Balon Swann and his brother (the one that infiltrated close circle of Stannis Baratheon, and is currently spying either after him, or his wife).

Gerold Dayne. He was promised by Blackfyres, that he will be given post of general-commander of their united army, and will lead 250,000 soldiers to KL (united forces of Golden Company, army of Martells, and people that will believe that fAegon is really son of Rhaegar, and thus will support his claim of Iron Throne).   

Titus Peake, Lord of House Peake, husband of Margot Lannister, and relative of Laswell, Torman, and Pykewood Peake, that currently serve in Golden Company.

Sallandhor Saan. His ancestor Samarro Saan was one of Ninepenny Kings, from Fifth Rebellion of Blackfyres.

Jalabhar Xho, member of Robert's royal court at Red Keep. His ancestor was Xhobar Qhoqua, one of Ninepenny Kings. Their names made from nearly the same letters - Jalabhar Xho,  Xho bar Qhoqua. And both of them are exiled princes from Summer Isles.

Bronn and his companion Chiggen. Four knights that Bronn recently took into his household.

Family of Kettleblacks. Cersei hired them to spy after Tyrion. Tyrion hired them to spy after Cersei. Littlefinger hired them to spy after both Cersei and Tyrion. While Varys hired them to keep Littlefinger in check. Years ago, prior Robert's Rebellion, Littlefinger was one of Varys' birds, his most promising and talented protege. Thus Varys invested lots of efforts into his development. Unfortunately for Varys, Littlefinger eventually decided to work for himself, not for Blackfyres. He knows lots of information about Blackfyres and their plans, and in case of his sudden death, he used an insurance against them - total reveal. Thus Varys can't kill him. That's why Littlefinger said to Catelyn "Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity-and where better for it than here-I hold the man's balls in the palm of my hand." He cupped his fingers, smiling. "Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that."

Aurane Waters.

Anguy from Riverlands, the one that participated in tournament at KL, and later joined Brotherhood without banners (where he was probably sent by Quaithe, to spy after Thoros of Myr. Because, unlike Varys, who is hostile towards magic, she is interested in it. Their different view of magic, is the reason why Blackfyres are separated into two opposing factions. Magic faction created Plan A, and they wanted Targaryens to hatch dragons. While Varys' faction preferred to use Plan B - fAegon, and no magic. While Illyrio, who is not a Blackfyre by blood, is torn between the two of them - Varys and Quaithe. He's trying to help both of them.)

Selwyn Tarth. And some people from Stannis' camp. Particularly those that escorted Davos, for his secret midnight meeting with Selwyn. Actual reason why Selwyn agreed to meet with Davos, is because he used this meeting, as a cover for actual meeting with people of Blackfyres, that work in Stannis' camp.

 

P.S. As for the reasons why Barristan was evicted from Kingsguards, and Blackfyres manipulated him into going to Dany, and didn't send him to fAegon -

Blackfyres were planning mass invasion of their forces into 7K, and to eventually seize KL. If Barristan at that time was still part of Kingsguards, then he could have died during attack. And Quaithe wanted to protect her son from that. Thus she made Varys to make Lannisters to fire Barristan from their court. Varys also has sent assassins after Barristan, to make him realise that he can't stay in KL, or to go home to Harvest Hall, because then his Selmy relatives will be in danger because of him. He knew that those guards/soldiers won't be able to stop or kill Barristan, because Barristan has a gift of predicting future (same as some Blackfyres and Targaryens prior him). He also knew that Barristan has a thing for Targaryens, and thus if he will make it impossible for Barristan to stay in KL, and impossible to return back home, then Barristan will think about what he should do with his life, and thus he will decide to go to Essos, to find there Targaryens. He's a Targaryen groupie, since the moment when he met Duncan Targaryen at Blackhaven.

From Varys' reports (that were intentionally made in front of Barristan) Barristan knew that Illyrio is supporting Targaryens, and thus when he will get to Essos, he should go and find Illyrio.

And Blackfyres didn't send him to fAegon, because even though more than 15 years passed after their last encounter, there was still a possibility that Barristan will recognise Septa Lemore, as his lover Lady Jeyne Swann. And he may also start to suspect that he was played, if he will join fAegon and Golden Company, and will hear there about Myles Toyne.

In 281 he saved Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from Simon Toyne, and had sex with Jeyne. And now Lady Jeyne is disguising herself as a septa, and she joined Golden Company, that used to be led by Myles Toyne. And she's also taking care of a young man, who is exactly of the age their child would have been by now, if during their encounter Lady Jeyne became pregnant.

So for obvious reasons, Quaithe sent her son to Dany, and not to fAegon. Add to that that she favours plan A - to use magic and dragons to get to Iron Throne. And if Barristan will serve to Dany, then Quaithe will be able to watch over both of them - her protege and her son.

And the reason why I think that Barristan has a gift of foresign, particularly he can predict only a close future, just a few seconds ahead, is because of

1. how he killed Maelys the Monstrous;

2. the way he saved King Aerys from Duskendale;

3. the way he was wounded at the Trident. Probably each of three wounds was supposed to be deadly, but he foresaw those attacks and moved away. He could have avoided being wounded at all, but he was trying to get to Rhaegar, to save him from Robert's deadly attack. And thus he didn't cared about his own safety, he just wanted to get to Rhaegar, whatever the price.

4. How he managed to escape from those guards, that attacked him after his retirement, and the way he managed to escape from Westeros.

5. How he intercepted attack of manticore.

 

I have several theories who can be Barristan's parents.

Spoiler

His father can be:

1. Lord Selmy.

2. Aenys Blackfyre.

3. Bittersteel (in this case his mother is Calla Blackfyre).

4. Lord Bloodraven.

And I'm sure that his mother is Quaithe, though Quaithe also could be one of this people:

1. Calla Blackfyre.

2. Some other female Blackfyre.

3. Or most likely she is Shiera Seastar.

Could be that Barristan is son of Lord Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar. And Varys is grandson of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre.

And maybe Daemon, that was killed by Maelys the Monstrous, is son of Aenys Blackfyre and Shiera Seastar, and thus he was Barristan's half-btother, thru their mother.

Daemon and Maelys were grandsons of Rohanne of Tyrosh. But after Maelys killed Daemon, he also sacked and seized Tyrosh. Thus Barristan killed Maelys as revenge for murder of Daemon.

If Barristan is son of Shiera Seastar and either Bloodraver or Bittersteel, then he isn't technically a Blackfyre, but he still, same as Blackfyres, is genetically a Targaryen.

Could be that when Shiera became not so young, and even bathing in blood wasn't enough for her to remain unchanged and beautiful, then she went to home land of her mother, Serenei of Lys. To learn there more about magic, and retain her youth and beauty. There she met Aenys Blackfyre, and eventually gave birth to their son Daemon. Bloodraven wanted to get her back, and thus he invited Aenys to Great Council, and prommised him safety. When Aenys came to King's Landing, Bloodraven and Shiera reunited. They spent one night together. But then Bloodraven executed Aenys, and Shiera left him. Either because Aenys was father of her son Daemon, or she wasn't Daemon's mother, and never was in any sort of relationship with Aenys, but she left Bloodraven because he broke his promise to Aenys and executed him.

Until the end of winter, Shiera settled in Harvest Hall, because she found out that she's pregnant. Later she gave birth to Barristan, and when a few years later Bittersteel arrived to Westeros with Fourth Rebellion, Shiera returned with him to Essos. Then she went to Asshai, when she learned more magic, in addition to blood magic that she already knew. Eventually there she met maester Marwyn and Mirri Maz Duur, and taught both of them of her magic arts - Marwyn learned from her to use glass candles, and Mirri learned from her blood magic and shadowbinding. While Shiera was staying in Asshai, eventually she changed her name to Quaithe, and started to hide her face behind red lacquered wooden mask (lacquered with blood?). She found out about the upcoming Long Night, return of the Others, Azor Ahai, and the prophecy about the Prince that was promised, and that the dragon has three heads. Thus she decided to participate in the upcoming events, and she thinks that to defeat the Great Other the dragons are necessary, and thus she decided to use Targaryens to hatch dragon eggs. She also contacted her proteges maester Marwyn in Citadel, and Mirri from the Dothraki Sea, and grandson of her old "friend" Bittersteel (Varys), and involved all of them in her plan. She also went to Qarth, to visit the House of Undying, and thru them to find out more about Long Night and the Prince/Azor Ahai.

Hints that could mean that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar:

1. In ADWD, Dany's last chapter:

"Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight."

Shiera Seastar liked to wear silver necklace with star sapphires and emeralds. Quaithe is wearing star mask.

2. “Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?” "

Shiera's name meaning is Star of the Sea, and stars are whispering in Quaithe's voice, thus she is a Star. And she knows what dragons know, because she is also a "dragon", same as Dany, she's a dragonblood.

3. Shiera Seastar had two mismatched eyes (one green and one blue), and color of Quaithe's eyes wasn't revealed. Probably intentionally, not to give to readers too many hints about her real identity.

In the books her eyes were described twice (in ACOK, Dany III "Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask." and in ADWD, Dany II "Moonlight shone in the woman’s eyes."), but both times no color was given.

4. Also Dany thought in ACOK, ch2

"The Bleeding Star led me to Qarth for a purpose. Here I will find what I need, if I have the strength to take what is offered, and the wisdom to avoid the traps and snares. If the gods mean for me to conquer, they will provide, they will send me a sign, and if not . . . if not . . . "

But actually Dany was led to Qarth by Quaithe, who is Shiera Seastar in red mask (probably lacquered with blood), thus she is also The Bleeding Star (she and the comet both).

5. Quaithe was in Drogo's tent, helping Dany to deliver her baby. She came there thru usage of glass candle, and thus she was transparent.

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Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. “Home,” she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

“…don’t want to wake the dragon, do you!”

Ser Jorah’s face was drawn and sorrowful. “Rhaegar was the last dragon,” he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind.

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After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

Quaithe was there, she was those smiling and whispering stars, and transculent figure, fading, colorless.

And it was implied there, that Quaithe and Dany share the same ancestors.

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Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one

Those ghosts are Dany's Targaryen ancestors. And they cried as one "Faster", because it was cried by a single person, a person that combine in her/him all those dead Targaryen kings. And that person was actually crying not "Faster, faster", it was "Push, push".

This person, who shared with Dany same ancestors, was seen by Dany, in her fevered dream, as transparent (apparition that came there thru usage of glass candle, as Quaithe did in ADWD), smiling and whispering stars (which is obviously Quaithe, who again appeared to Dany as whispering stars in ADWD), that could be only Shiera Seastar. Out of all of Dany's relatives, Shiera is the only one who could be symbolised by stars. Furthermore Shiera was bathing in blood to stay young and beautiful. And Quiathe has red mask made from starlight, that's Shiera's favourite star jewellery, and red blood to stay young, fused together. 

Five clues that tie together Quaithe and Shiera Seastar.

Though all of it, I mean - my entire post, are speculations. But I got all of those ideas, after reading what was actually in the ASOIAF books, so I wouldn't be surprised, if my speculations will turn out to be correct.

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon Connington senses unease from some of the officers of the Golden Company, and he attributes it to the cloud under which he departed twelve years ago, but the reader should wonder about this, since we really don't know what the men have been told about his return with the noble lad. 

He doesn't know what exactly is causing that unease, but he feels that that unease is directed towards him, and thus he thinks that maybe it's because of how he departed from GC. So he may not know the actual reason why he is making them uneasy, but he sensed correctly that their unease is indeed caused by him.

Now if the entry data is this:

1. fAegon is a Blackfyre.

2. Officers of the Golden Company know that fAegon is a Blackfyre, and that he isn't son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

3. They know that Illyrio works for Blackfyres.

4. Golden Company is a "child" of Blackfyres, always was and always will be.

But while Varys (one of Blackfyres) was preparing Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres, for the last 15+ years (or even longer than that, since before Robert's Rebellion), warriors of GC had to do something with their free time, until they will be called to Westeros, and to keep up their good fighting form, they became a sellswords company for hire. But they were not doing it solely for money. They did needed money to feed themselves in Essos, while Varys was preparing everything for their invasion in 7K, but the money was just an additional bonus. Thus there were three reasons, why they were available for hire (even though their only true master was always Bittersteel, and his Blackfyre family) - 1. they had lots of free time, 2. they needed money, 3. they had to stay fit, and thus they needed to keep fighting. 

5. They know that Jon Con believes that fAegon is son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and that's the only reason why he is with them, and leading them into war against people of Westeros.

6. They know that it's necessary for success of their Invasion into 7K, to make people believe that fAegon is son of Rhaegar. If he is a real Targaryen, then in eyes of citizens of 7K, he is their rightful King. And thus half of realm will support his claim of Iron Throne, against evil Lannisters. But without aid of those people, GC won't be able to seize entire Westeros. People of 7K won't support fAegon, if they will know that he is a Blackfyre, and not a Targaryen.

7. For people to believe that fAegon is really son of Rhaegar, his claim should be supported by someone significant, reliable, someone who knew Rhaegar well, and who can vouch that fAegon is who he claims to be.

Based on those 7 key points, their unease towards Jon Con is caused by understanding of their situation - on this stage of Great Invasion of Blackfyres, success of their entire mission, depends solely on Jon Con. Their plan will be working as it should be, only as long as Jon Con is staying inside his pink bubble of happiness, believing that, even though he was unable to save Rhaegar, now he is redeeming himself, by helping Rhaegar's son to return to 7K, and retrieve Throne of his ancestors. Though they are aware, that if one day Jon Con will suddenly see the light, and realise that he was fooled, then he will unmask fAegon, he will tell everyone that the prince is fake. Then they will have to pack their things, say good buy to Westeros, and go back to Essos. This time for good. Because there won't be a seventh time.

It's kind of ironic, that after five failed Rebellions, Blackfyres will finally succeed with their Sixth, only for a Zombie Apocalypse to begin shortly after their victory.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

I'll be honest, while there is enough evidence to suggest GRRM has thought of Aegon from the get go, his introduction was executed so poorly, I tend to think that the reason Barristan didn't go to Aegon right away is because Varys' machinations for Aegon weren't settled on by GRRM until he got bored with the story he was writing, well after Barristan was dismissed.  In ADWD when there are all of those references with Illyrio changing his mind which I believe were really a "wink-wink" by GRRM referring to himself.

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"Which plan?" said Tristan Rivers. "The fat man's plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

 

- The Lost Lord, ADWD

 

[bent branch]

38 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I'll be honest, while there is enough evidence to suggest GRRM has thought of Aegon from the get go, his introduction was executed so poorly, I tend to think that the reason Barristan didn't go to Aegon right away is because Varys' machinations for Aegon weren't settled on by GRRM until he got bored with the story he was writing, well after Barristan was dismissed.  In ADWD when there are all of those references with Illyrio changing his mind which I believe were really a "wink-wink" by GRRM referring to himself.

I want to challenge is your idea that GRRM has changed his mind about the story and is attempting a course correction in regards to Barristan and Aegon. The first time we are told how Barristan comes to Dany is in ASOS-Chapter 57:
 

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"...Are you the Usurper's man, or mine?"

"Your, if you will have me," Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and other near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that. I might be serving in King's Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service-"

"I can grant that wish," Ser Jorah said darkly.

"Quiet," said Dany. "I'll hear him out."

"It may be that I must die a traitor's death," Ser Barristan said. "If so, I should not die alone. Before I took Robert's pardon I fought against him on the Trident. You were on the other side of that battle, Mormont, were you not?" He did not wait for an answer. "Your Grace, I am sorry I misled you. It was the only way to keep the Lannisters from learning that I had joined you. You are watched, as your brother was. Lord Varys reported every move Viserys made, for years. Whilst I sat on the small council, I heard a hundred such reports. And since the day you wed Khal Drogo, there has been an informer by your side selling your secrets, trading whispers to the Spider for gold and promises."

 

The first thing I want to point out is that it is Barristan's decision entirely to go find Viserys. Varys does seem to set things in motion by advising Cersei to retire Barristan to make room for Sandor, but he may not have expected Cersei to actually do it. It is hard to know. What I mostly want you to notice is how scanty Barristan's story is about how he came to join Dany. If GRRM wanted to make a course correction in Barristan's story regarding Aegon, he did have room. However, When Barristan tells the story again in ADWD, GRRM adds details that doubles down on the original story. Here is the story from ADWD-Chapter 11:
 

Quote

 

Ser Barristan escorted her back up to her chambers. "Tell me a tale, ser," Dany said as they climbed. "Some tale of valor with a happy ending." She felt in need of happy endings. "Tell me how you escaped from the Usurper."

"Your Grace. There is no valor in running for your life."

Dany seated herself on a cushion, crossed her legs, and gazed up at him. "Please. It was the Young Usurper who dismissed you from the Kingsguard..."

"Joffrey, aye. They gave my age for a reason, though the truth was elsewise. The boy wanted a white cloak for his dog Sandor Clegane and his mother wanted the Kingslayer to be her lord commander. When they told me, I...I took off my cloak as they commanded, threw my sword at Joffrey's feet, and spoke unwisely."

"What did you say?"

"The truth...but truth was never welcome at that court. I walked from the throne room with my head high, though I did not know where I was going. I had no home but White Sword Tower. My cousins would find a place for me at Harvest Hall, I knew, but I had no wish to bring Joffrey's displeasure down upon them. I was gathering my things when it came to me that had brought this on myself by taking Robert's pardon. He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat. That was when I knew that to redeem myself I msut find the true king, and serve him loyally with all the strength that still remained me."

"My brother Viserys."

"Such was my intent. When I reached the stables the gold cloaks tried to seize me. Joffrey had offered me a tower to die in, but I had spurned his gift, so not he meant to offer me a dungeon. The commander of the City Watch himself confronted me, emboldened by my empty scabbard, but he had only three men with him and I still had my knife. I slashed one man's face open when he laid his hands upon me, and rode through the others. As I spurred for the gates I heard Janos Slynt shouting for them to go after me. Once outside teh Red Keep, th streets were congested, else I might have gotten away clean. Instead thy caught me at the River Gate. the gold cloaks who had pursued me from the castle shouted for those at the gate to stop me, so they crossed their spears to bar my way."

"And you without your sword? How did you get past them?"

"A true knight is worth ten guardsmen. the men at the gate were taken by surprise. I rode one down, wrenched away his spear and drove through the throat of my closest pursuer. The other broke off once I was through the gate, so I spurred my horse to a gallop and rode hellbent along the river until the city was lost to sight behind me. That night I traded my horse for a handful of pennies and some rags, and the next morning I joined the stream of smallfolk making their way to King's Landing. I'd gone out the Mud Gate, so I returned through the Gate of the Gods, with dirt on my face, stubble on my cheeks, and no weapon but a wooden staff. In roughspun clothes and mud-caked boots, I was just one more old man fleeing the war. The gold cloaks took a stag from me and waved me through. King's Landing was crowded with smallfolk who'd come seeking refuge from the fighting. I lost myself amongst them. I had a little silver, but I needed that to pay my passage across the narrow sea, so I slept in septs and alleys and took my meals in pot shops. I let my beard grow out and cloaked myself in age. The day Lord Stark lost his head, I was there, watching. Afterward I went into the Great Sept and thanked the seven gods that Joffrey had stripped me of my cloak."

"Stark was a traitor who met a traitor's end."

 

So, rather than flailing around as you suggest, GRRM makes it clear that it was Barristan's decision to go to Viserys (originally) and that is exactly where GRRM wanted him to be. There are very good reasons storywise to send Barristan to Dany.

1)  Jorah needed to be outed to Dany. Only someone from the small council would have been able to do that.

2)  Dany needs someone who was in her father's court for her to gain some understanding of what was actually going on then. Barristan was a good choice for this since he knows a lot about what happened back then, but was not in the inner circle. Therefore, he can't reveal too much too soon.

In fact, Barristan immediately rolls into a discussion about the situation in Westeros at the time of the rebellion from this story. Barristan fits so perfectly the type of character that GRRM needed to send to Dany that it only makes sense for him to have gone to Dany. So, rather than the author flailing, I think it the proponents of the Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra theory that are flailing since they are the only ones who ever make the claim that Barristan should have been sent to Aegon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

58 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I want to challenge is your idea that GRRM has changed his mind about the story and is attempting a course correction in regards to Barristan and Aegon. The first time we are told how Barristan comes to Dany is in ASOS-Chapter 57:
 

The first thing I want to point out is that it is Barristan's decision entirely to go find Viserys. Varys does seem to set things in motion by advising Cersei to retire Barristan to make room for Sandor, but he may not have expected Cersei to actually do it. It is hard to know. What I mostly want you to notice is how scanty Barristan's story is about how he came to join Dany. If GRRM wanted to make a course correction in Barristan's story regarding Aegon, he did have room. However, When Barristan tells the story again in ADWD, GRRM adds details that doubles down on the original story. Here is the story from ADWD-Chapter 11:
 

So, rather than flailing around as you suggest, GRRM makes it clear that it was Barristan's decision to go to Viserys (originally) and that is exactly where GRRM wanted him to be. There are very good reasons storywise to send Barristan to Dany.

1)  Jorah needed to be outed to Dany. Only someone from the small council would have been able to do that.

2)  Dany needs someone who was in her father's court for her to gain some understanding of what was actually going on then. Barristan was a good choice for this since he knows a lot about what happened back then, but was not in the inner circle. Therefore, he can't reveal too much too soon.

In fact, Barristan immediately rolls into a discussion about the situation in Westeros at the time of the rebellion from this story. Barristan fits so perfectly the type of character that GRRM needed to send to Dany that it only makes sense for him to have gone to Dany. So, rather than the author flailing, I think it the proponents of the Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra theory that are flailing since they are the only ones who ever make the claim that Barristan should have been sent to Aegon.

I strongly believe that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra, and I think it made perfect sense for Illyrio not to tell Barristan about Aegon, but to send him to fetch Daenerys. 

[bent branch]

14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I strongly believe that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra, and I think it made perfect sense for Illyrio not to tell Barristan about Aegon, but to send him to fetch Daenerys. 

You're right. I shouldn't paint all of the proponents of this theory with the same brush. I apologize. I get annoyed with many proponents of this particular theory because they try to twist all aspects of the story to fit the theory and then eventually turn to bad mouthing GRRM about the shitty story resulting from all their twisting.

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, bent branch said:

You're right. I shouldn't paint all of the proponents of this theory with the same brush. I apologize. I get annoyed with many proponents of this particular theory because they try to twist all aspects of the story to fit the theory and then eventually turn to bad mouthing GRRM about the shitty story resulting from all their twisting.

No need to apologize.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 2/3/2018 at 11:12 PM, bent branch said:

I want to challenge is your idea that GRRM has changed his mind about the story and is attempting a course correction in regards to Barristan and Aegon. The first time we are told how Barristan comes to Dany is in ASOS-Chapter 57:
 

The first thing I want to point out is that it is Barristan's decision entirely to go find Viserys. Varys does seem to set things in motion by advising Cersei to retire Barristan to make room for Sandor, but he may not have expected Cersei to actually do it. It is hard to know. What I mostly want you to notice is how scanty Barristan's story is about how he came to join Dany. If GRRM wanted to make a course correction in Barristan's story regarding Aegon, he did have room. However, When Barristan tells the story again in ADWD, GRRM adds details that doubles down on the original story. Here is the story from ADWD-Chapter 11:
 

So, rather than flailing around as you suggest, GRRM makes it clear that it was Barristan's decision to go to Viserys (originally) and that is exactly where GRRM wanted him to be. There are very good reasons storywise to send Barristan to Dany.

1)  Jorah needed to be outed to Dany. Only someone from the small council would have been able to do that.

2)  Dany needs someone who was in her father's court for her to gain some understanding of what was actually going on then. Barristan was a good choice for this since he knows a lot about what happened back then, but was not in the inner circle. Therefore, he can't reveal too much too soon.

In fact, Barristan immediately rolls into a discussion about the situation in Westeros at the time of the rebellion from this story. Barristan fits so perfectly the type of character that GRRM needed to send to Dany that it only makes sense for him to have gone to Dany. So, rather than the author flailing, I think it the proponents of the Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra theory that are flailing since they are the only ones who ever make the claim that Barristan should have been sent to Aegon.

I didn't intend to suggest that GRRM later regretted putting Barristan in Daenerys' camp and needed to fix it, I meant that Varys and Illyrio's plans are so convoluted with the addition of Aegon that it begs the question why wouldn't Varys stop Barristan from seeking Viserys (who was already dead at this point) and point him in the direction of Aegon unless Aegon's ties to Varys/Illyrio weren't fully developed until after AGOT.

[Apoplexy]

17 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I didn't intend to suggest that GRRM later regretted putting Barristan in Daenerys' camp and needed to fix it, I meant that Varys and Illyrio's plans are so convoluted with the addition of Aegon that it begs the question why wouldn't Varys stop Barristan from seeking Viserys (who was already dead at this point) and point him in the direction of Aegon unless Aegon's ties to Varys/Illyrio weren't fully developed until after AGOT.

Illyrio was probably counting on the dothraki to align with aegon via viserys and/or dany. Illyrio probably thought barristan would be best used to shepherd dany back to pentos with her dothraki forces.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Barristan turned down the crowns offer of lands and wealth (Varys most likely helped provide both) He then went to Dany via passage from the help of Illyrio. Varys/Illyrio are putting their eggs in multiple baskets. Aegon has 10 thousand swords and seasons warriors with him. While Dany has dragons, Unsullied (though great soldiers not terrific warriors like her Dothraki). Their ultimate goal will be to bind Aegon to Dany via marriage, why else give Dany 3 eggs? Not save 1 for Aegon or themselves for that matter? Varys knows that no army can stand against 3 living dragons. If Dany doesn't accept Aegon, Varys and Illyrio still have something to lean on; they gave her dragons egg, provided her with a life by keeping her and Viserys alive for as long as they have and with Aegon by her side will most likely provide her with more swords and some great lords of Westeros. 

[bent branch]

14 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I didn't intend to suggest that GRRM later regretted putting Barristan in Daenerys' camp and needed to fix it, I meant that Varys and Illyrio's plans are so convoluted with the addition of Aegon that it begs the question why wouldn't Varys stop Barristan from seeking Viserys (who was already dead at this point) and point him in the direction of Aegon unless Aegon's ties to Varys/Illyrio weren't fully developed until after AGOT.

Hmmm, the first thing I wonder is if you read the quotes I provided. Those quotes show definitively that that Varys had nothing to do with Barristan heading out to find Viserys. Therefore, since Varys had nothing to do with Barristan deciding to go find Viserys OR helping Barristan to fulfill those goals, Varys' intervention or lack of it says nothing about whether GRRM had firm plans in his head for Aegon in the story. It is interesting you use the phrase "begs the question", because in logic, it means formulating a question to suit your preconceived notions. This is a form of circular reasoning. Your circular reasoning goes like this:

1.  I (meaning you) believe that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra: therefore,

2.  Illyrio will want the best for his son; and

3.  Barristan is the best (the song Gaston from Disney's Beauty and the Beast is so running through my head right now); and therefore,

4.  the fact that Illyrio doesn't aim Barristan at Aegon proves that GRRM didn't have Aegon's role in the story planned from the beginning.

This is very flawed reasoning. The story makes Barristan's reasoning very, very clear. The story is also very, very clear that other than suggesting to Cersei she could retire Barristan (she was looking for a way to give a white cloak to Sandor AND make Jaime commander of the Kingsguard), Varys had no part in Barristan heading to Dany (Viserys). The story in no way suggests Varys manipulated Cersei into wanting either of these two things and others (including Tywin) only fault Varys for causing trouble by putting the idea of retiring Barristan into Cersei's head in the first place.

Since Barristan shows up at Illyrio's manse as a free agent, Illyrio can respond in only one of four basic ways.

1.  Kill Barristan before he can cause any problem to Varys and Illyrio's plans. This choice is wasteful, because as is noted several times in the story, Barristan brings a certain degree of legitimacy to whoever he chooses to support.

2.  Refuse to help Barristan in his goals in any way, but leave Barristan free to make his way to Dany if he wants to.This choice is dangerous because they can't keep an eye on Barristan's movements easily.

3.  Agree to help Barristan reach Dany and, thereby, instilling some safety measures in the meeting between Dany and Barristan. Most people would agree that Belwas was sent to protect Dany. I think fewer people realize that Belwas was also supposed to protect Dany from Barristan if necessary. Note: This was obviously the choice Illyrio made.

4.  Bring Barristan fully into the conspiracy. This choice is actually really risky with Barristan. Barristan somewhat sulkily says that he was never invited into any side of any conspiracy before. This is because Barristan ALWAYS does what he believes is right at the time. However, what he thinks is right is not necessarily apparent. Therefore, he could only be approached with some degree of risk.

Finally, did you totally miss the points I made about how someone like Barristan was required by the story to help maintain narrative integrity. Why create another character just so awesome Barristan can be sent to Aegon?*

[Lost Melnibonean]

57 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Hmmm, the first thing I wonder is if you read the quotes I provided. Those quotes show definitively that that Varys had nothing to do with Barristan heading out to find Viserys. Therefore, since Varys had nothing to do with Barristan deciding to go find Viserys OR helping Barristan to fulfill those goals, Varys' intervention or lack of it says nothing about whether GRRM had firm plans in his head for Aegon in the story. It is interesting you use the phrase "begs the question", because in logic, it means formulating a question to suit your preconceived notions. This is a form of circular reasoning. Your circular reasoning goes like this:

1.  I (meaning you) believe that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra: therefore,

2.  Illyrio will want the best for his son; and

3.  Barristan is the best (the song Gaston from Disney's Beauty and the Beast is so running through my head right now); and therefore,

4.  the fact that Illyrio doesn't aim Barristan at Aegon proves that GRRM didn't have Aegon's role in the story planned from the beginning.

This is very flawed reasoning. The story makes Barristan's reasoning very, very clear. The story is also very, very clear that other than suggesting to Cersei she could retire Barristan (she was looking for a way to give a white cloak to Sandor AND make Jaime commander of the Kingsguard), Varys had no part in Barristan heading to Dany (Viserys). The story in no way suggests Varys manipulated Cersei into wanting either of these two things and others (including Tywin) only fault Varys for causing trouble by putting the idea of retiring Barristan into Cersei's head in the first place.

Since Barristan shows up at Illyrio's manse as a free agent, Illyrio can respond in only one of four basic ways.

1.  Kill Barristan before he can cause any problem to Varys and Illyrio's plans. This choice is wasteful, because as is noted several times in the story, Barristan brings a certain degree of legitimacy to whoever he chooses to support.

2.  Refuse to help Barristan in his goals in any way, but leave Barristan free to make his way to Dany if he wants to.This choice is dangerous because they can't keep an eye on Barristan's movements easily.

3.  Agree to help Barristan reach Dany and, thereby, instilling some safety measures in the meeting between Dany and Barristan. Most people would agree that Belwas was sent to protect Dany. I think fewer people realize that Belwas was also supposed to protect Dany from Barristan if necessary. Note: This was obviously the choice Illyrio made.

4.  Bring Barristan fully into the conspiracy. This choice is actually really risky with Barristan. Barristan somewhat sulkily says that he was never invited into any side of any conspiracy before. This is because Barristan ALWAYS does what he believes is right at the time. However, what he thinks is right is not necessarily apparent. Therefore, he could only be approached with some degree of risk.

Finally, did you totally miss the points I made about how someone like Barristan was required by the story to help maintain narrative integrity. Why create another character just so awesome Barristan can be sent to Aegon?*

Well put.

I think the little Barristan subplot works whether Aegon is the son of Rhaegar, a Blackfyre descendant, some other kind of claimant, or a pisswater prince.

Regardless of their motivation, we know Illyrio and Varys have been working to place Aegon on the Iron Throne. And we know Illyrio sends Barristan to fetch Daenerys and her dragonlets back to Pentos. And by this time, we can assume that the fat man plans to have Daenerys wed her presumed nephew, right? I think all this works regardless of who Aegon really is or is not, no? 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

On 2/5/2018 at 7:56 PM, Apoplexy said:

Illyrio was probably counting on the dothraki to align with aegon via viserys and/or dany. Illyrio probably thought barristan would be best used to shepherd dany back to pentos with her dothraki forces.

Illyrio and Varys knew Viserys was weak and could never command a khalasar or they are big fools and we should not collectively give them credit for masterminding anything.  I'll break down my theory later.

On 2/6/2018 at 9:45 AM, bent branch said:

Hmmm, the first thing I wonder is if you read the quotes I provided. Those quotes show definitively that that Varys had nothing to do with Barristan heading out to find Viserys. Therefore, since Varys had nothing to do with Barristan deciding to go find Viserys OR helping Barristan to fulfill those goals, Varys' intervention or lack of it says nothing about whether GRRM had firm plans in his head for Aegon in the story. It is interesting you use the phrase "begs the question", because in logic, it means formulating a question to suit your preconceived notions. This is a form of circular reasoning. Your circular reasoning goes like this:

1.  I (meaning you) believe that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra: therefore,

2.  Illyrio will want the best for his son; and

3.  Barristan is the best (the song Gaston from Disney's Beauty and the Beast is so running through my head right now); and therefore,

4.  the fact that Illyrio doesn't aim Barristan at Aegon proves that GRRM didn't have Aegon's role in the story planned from the beginning.

This is very flawed reasoning.

I don't believe Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra and never said as much. You are mixing me up with someone else.  I will respond in detail with my step by step reasoning when I can.

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Illyrio and Varys knew Viserys was weak and could never command a khalasar or they are big fools and we should not collectively give them credit for masterminding anything.  I'll break down my theory later.

I don't think Illyrio expected or wanted Viserys to command anybody. I think he expected Viserys to take nominal command of a Dothraki force in Aegon's name. I suspect Illyrio planned for Viserys to remain in Pentos where Illyrio would have continued plying him with Arbor gold and Lysene bedslaves. When the time was right, I suspect Illyrio would have made Viserys an offer he couldn't refuse... recognize your nephew as the rightful king or swim with the fishes. If Viserys had refused, Illyrio could have had Strong Belwas sew the foolish Targling into a sack with a few stones and toss him into the Bay of Pentos. And if Viserys had agreed, Illyrio could have had him offed sometime later, or perhaps offer him in marriage to gain the loyalty of some great house. 

And I think this assumption works whether Aegon is who Aegon thinks he is or not. 

[Megorova]

I also don't believe that fAegon is Illyrio's son. Though not only because I have my own theory about his parentage.

The reason is, that there could be another explanation, why Illyrio cares about fAegon, and said about past affections in conversation about him. It could mean not that he is fAegon's father, they can be related in another way, and thus there still could be an affection. Another option is this:

GRRM is often using parallels, same/similar plot more than once.

For example:

1. Bellegere Otherys, the Black Pearl of Braavos, was one of Aegon IV mistresses. Her parents were princess from Summer Isles, and the Sealord's son. Thus she herself was a royalty. Supposedly she gave birth to three of Aegon's children, among them a daughter named Bellenora. This Bellenora became a courtesan (even though her mother was sort of from upper class). Bellenora's own daughter Bellonara, also became a courtesan. Bellonara also gave birth to a daughter, that later also became a courtesan, and her name was Bellegere Otherys. Thus first Bellegere Otherys was a royalty, but her great granddaugher, that had the same name as her, is a courtesan.

2. In King's Landing there's an upperscale whorehouse. Its owner is a woman from Summer Isles - Chataya. Her own daughter Alayaya, is working as a prostitute, in her mother's establishment.

 

And then there was Saera Targaryen, one of 13 children of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne Targaryen. She left 7K, for a while stayed in Lys, then went to Volantis, where she eventually became the owner of a famous pleasure house.

And now we have Serra, who worked in pillow house in Lys.

Parallels are this:

Summerislanders: Bellegere (princess) - Bellenora - Bellonara - Bellegere (courtesan).

Summerislanders: Chataya (owner of whorehouse) - Alayaya (prostitute).

Same races, similar names, and similar lifestyles (with degradation), between ancestors and descendants.

So I think, that there could be made another parallel, with usage of the same principles:

Valyrians: Saera (princess, owner of pleasure house) - Serra (courtesan in pillow house).

Thus Illyrio's wife Serra could be a descendant of princess Saera Targaryen. Furthermore Varys is also her descendant. Varys and Serra are brother and sister. So aside from friendship, there's another connection between Varys and Illyrio, and that is that they are brothers-in-law.

Somewhere between Saera and Serra, one of Saera's descendants married with one of Blackfyres, that lived in Essos after their failed Rebellions. Their ancestor Saera was a princess, but her descendants ended up as slaves. The girl was sold into a pillow house in Lys, and her brother was also sold, and castrated. Maybe his owners also intended for him to work in a pillowhouse. 

I think that maybe Serra and Varys are either grandchildren of Bittersteel, or his great grandchildren. And one of their parents or grandparents is a descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre, and the other one is a descendant of Saera Targaryen.

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Right so here is what I believe regarding Aegon/Barristan/Varys...

At the time AGOT was written:

• Varys and Illyrio were plotting to use the upheaval in King's Landing to support an unnamed foreign claimant to the Iron Throne.
• Varys is portrayed as the most devious man in the seven kingdoms.  He has lots of knowledge, patience, and means of influencing things behind the scenes.  Varys understands that Barristan would be a potential asset on the side of his claimant.  It would be an uncharacteristic failure on the part of Varys to underestimate Barristan's value - I do not believe he would do this.
• Varys intentionally influenced Cersei to let go of Barristan, weakening team Joffrey.
• Illyrio knows Viserys and he knows the Dothraki.  Illyrio knows Viserys is weak and incapable of leading the Dothraki without Drogo.  Illyrio has no clue that Daenerys will develop into a strong leader or hatch dragons.  It would be an uncharacteristic failure on the part of Illyrio/Varys to expect the Dothraki to follow Viserys to Westeros without Drogo leading them.

When ADWD is released and Aegon is introduced as Illyrio and Varys' claimant, working backwards I arrive at the following:

• No assumptions are made about Aegon's parentage or identity other than that he is Varys and Illyrio's preferred claimant to the throne and they are presenting him as Aegon Targaryen.
• The Dothraki could have been used to either (1) bring chaos and suffering to Westeros which Aegon would then sweep in and become the savior of the seven kingdoms by defeating, or (2) make up a core portion of Aegon's army along with the Golden Company.
  • Option 1 makes sense - if Varys and Illyrio are as smart as I believe they are, and they understand the Dothraki culture as I expect them to, they could predict that Drogo, either enraged by the attempted (or possibly successful) assassination of Daenerys that Varys was helping to orchestrate for Robert Baratheon OR out of obligation to provide Viserys his crown, would take the Dothraki to the Seven Kingdoms.  They would expect them to treat the Westerosi the same way they treated the Lamb men in AGOT - raping, pillaging, etc.  Plus Viserys as the nominal leader of this army would inspire no love (I'm assuming they know Viserys and know this).  Westeros would need saving.
  • Option 2 does NOT make sense - why would Drogo's army support Aegon instead of Viserys?  It was with Viserys that the deal for Daenerys was made, Daenerys does not know Aegon, for Aegon to marry Daenerys that would mean losing Drogo which would mean losing the Dothraki army, and NO ONE in their right mind could think that beggar king Viserys (who was named Aerys II heir) would relinquish the crown he believes is rightfully his to Aegon.  Illyrio fans the flames of Viserys' dillusions about the people toasting him and making him king - why would he do that unless he planned for Viserys to die (which if he did why not kill him earlier and introduce Aegon to Daenerys then) or for Viserys to follow a rival claimant he thought was dead?  Viserys is too obstinate to bow to someone else even if his life was threatened, and Viserys is NOT the key to the Dothraki army.  Viserys is completely useless in this option.  IF this option was the plan, then Varys and Illyrio are NOT the masterminds I'm taking them to be.

I can accept that Varys would expect Barristan to seek the Targaryens in Essos, and to find Illyrio, but the timeline for Illyrio to send Barristan to Daenerys would have to be post-Viserys death, post-Drogo's death, post-Dragons born in order for him to help bring value to Daenerys to get her to Aegon.  If it was post-Viserys death / pre-Drogo's death and Daenerys is now the claimant they want to use to bring chaos to the Seven Kingdoms, why bring her someone who could add legitimacy and value to her claim if they intend for her and the Dothraki to be toppled by Aegon?  It doesn't make sense.

[Back door hodor]

So I'll put this out there since no one else has....does anyone else think it's possible that this is something George might have attempted to slide by on us, by which I mean he had not yet conceived of the idea of faegon when he had Barry go meet Dani, not saying it's definite, just that I for one consider it a possibility.

Not to be a dick or purposefully contrarian, but it is a good an explanation as any other in my opinion, especially seeing the loops others have to go through to make some kind of timeline explanation work.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 2/7/2018 at 11:31 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

When the time was right, I suspect Illyrio would have made Viserys an offer he couldn't refuse... recognize your nephew as the rightful king or swim with the fishes.

Maybe offer him Stormsend. Viserys could style himself Prince of Stormsend and Lord of the Stormlands. While the true power in the Stormlands would be Jon Con in Griffin's Roosts. Viserys gets a grand castle but not enough power to damage the reputation of the new Targ dynasty.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe offer him Stormsend. Viserys could style himself Prince of Stormsend and Lord of the Stormlands. While the true power in the Stormlands would be Jon Con in Griffin's Roosts. Viserys gets a grand castle but not enough power to damage the reputation of the new Targ dynasty.

Or maybe offer Viserys the same offer Renly extended toward Stannis. It's speculative, though.