Faegon, Varys, Daenerys and Barristan

[Alexis-something-Rose]

10 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I can accept that Varys would expect Barristan to seek the Targaryens in Essos, and to find Illyrio, but the timeline for Illyrio to send Barristan to Daenerys would have to be post-Viserys death, post-Drogo's death, post-Dragons born in order for him to help bring value to Daenerys to get her to Aegon.  If it was post-Viserys death / pre-Drogo's death and Daenerys is now the claimant they want to use to bring chaos to the Seven Kingdoms, why bring her someone who could add legitimacy and value to her claim if they intend for her and the Dothraki to be toppled by Aegon?  It doesn't make sense.

Illyrio sent Barristan to Dany to bring her back to Pentos. The plan involving Drogo's khalasar and the 40,000 Dothraki that were supposed to join the GC went up in flames when Drogo fell from his horse.

Barristan was not sent to Dany to lend her legitimacy, he was only sent to bring her back. He remained by her side because he had no idea Aegon was out there and he thinks she's the last Targaryen, making her in his book the legitimate ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. 

As Littlefinger said, even the humblest pieces can have a mind of their own, and Dany moved from humble piece to a legitimate player in the game. Illyrio created that situation when he decided to keep the Aegon information from Barristan. Instead of Barristan's mission being I need to fetch Dany because she will be Aegon's bride and let her know that her nephew was alive, it became I will swear my sword to Dany because she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and the last Targaryen. 

It doesn't matter whether Aegon is real or fake right this instant. Illyrio crapped the pooch big time on this one. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

I don't think that this...

Quote

"Perchance, is Ser Barristan Selmy with your son at Riverrun?"

"No," she answered, puzzled. "Is he no longer with Joffrey? He was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard."

Renly shook his head. "The Lannisters told him he was too old and gave his cloak to the Hound. I'm told he left King's Landing vowing to take up service with the true king. That cloak Brienne claimed today was the one I was keeping for Selmy, in hopes that he might offer me his sword. When he did not turn up at Highgarden, I thought perhaps he had gone to Riverrun instead."

"We have not seen him."

"He was old, yes, but a good man still. I hope he has not come to harm. The Lannisters are great fools." 

Catelyn II, Clash 22

...should be read as evidence that Daenerys is the rightful heir and that Aegon is a fake. It is a clue to the reader that Barristan would show up with Daenerys, since we had no idea of Aegon (or fAegon if you like) at that time. Expecting this, we should have realized who Arstan really was as soon as we met him. 

[Morgana Lannister]

On 2/6/2018 at 1:20 AM, Ser Insight said:

Barristan turned down the crowns offer of lands and wealth (Varys most likely helped provide both) He then went to Dany via passage from the help of Illyrio. Varys/Illyrio are putting their eggs in multiple baskets. Aegon has 10 thousand swords and seasons warriors with him. While Dany has dragons, Unsullied (though great soldiers not terrific warriors like her Dothraki). Their ultimate goal will be to bind Aegon to Dany via marriage, why else give Dany 3 eggs? Not save 1 for Aegon or themselves for that matter? Varys knows that no army can stand against 3 living dragons. If Dany doesn't accept Aegon, Varys and Illyrio still have something to lean on; they gave her dragons egg, provided her with a life by keeping her and Viserys alive for as long as they have and with Aegon by her side will most likely provide her with more swords and some great lords of Westeros. 

Very good point, but will elaborate further later when I have read the full threat. I have a twist for it that may be tinfoil or not....but as I said I would like to read the full thread first.

[bent branch]

On 2/9/2018 at 5:51 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't think that this...

Catelyn II, Clash 22

...should be read as evidence that Daenerys is the rightful heir and that Aegon is a fake. It is a clue to the reader that Barristan would show up with Daenerys, since we had no idea of Aegon (or fAegon if you like) at that time. Expecting this, we should have realized who Arstan really was as soon as we met him. 

Agreed. Barristan's story thus far has absolutely nothing to say about Aegon's story thus far, either for against him being fake. We know from ADWD that Barristan has no special knowledge as to potential Targaryen heirs. He went to Dany because that was all he knew to do.

Where Barristan's story will begin to have some bearing on Aegon's story is when the two groups begin to become aware of one another. One element of this that I think is often overlooked is that Barry and JonCon actually know each other, not just know of each other. That will add some interest.

Actually, that is a topic that I don't think has ever been brought up before, what characters in the story know each other although we, the readers have never seen them interact. Another of these sets is Aurane Waters and Salladhor Saan.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 2/3/2018 at 10:38 PM, Megorova said:

He doesn't know what exactly is causing that unease, but he feels that that unease is directed towards him, and thus he thinks that maybe it's because of how he departed from GC. So he may not know the actual reason why he is making them uneasy, but he sensed correctly that their unease is indeed caused by him.

Now if the entry data is this:

1. fAegon is a Blackfyre.

2. Officers of the Golden Company know that fAegon is a Blackfyre, and that he isn't son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

3. They know that Illyrio works for Blackfyres.

4. Golden Company is a "child" of Blackfyres, always was and always will be.

But while Varys (one of Blackfyres) was preparing Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres, for the last 15+ years (or even longer than that, since before Robert's Rebellion), warriors of GC had to do something with their free time, until they will be called to Westeros, and to keep up their good fighting form, they became a sellswords company for hire. But they were not doing it solely for money. They did needed money to feed themselves in Essos, while Varys was preparing everything for their invasion in 7K, but the money was just an additional bonus. Thus there were three reasons, why they were available for hire (even though their only true master was always Bittersteel, and his Blackfyre family) - 1. they had lots of free time, 2. they needed money, 3. they had to stay fit, and thus they needed to keep fighting. 

5. They know that Jon Con believes that fAegon is son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and that's the only reason why he is with them, and leading them into war against people of Westeros.

6. They know that it's necessary for success of their Invasion into 7K, to make people believe that fAegon is son of Rhaegar. If he is a real Targaryen, then in eyes of citizens of 7K, he is their rightful King. And thus half of realm will support his claim of Iron Throne, against evil Lannisters. But without aid of those people, GC won't be able to seize entire Westeros. People of 7K won't support fAegon, if they will know that he is a Blackfyre, and not a Targaryen.

7. For people to believe that fAegon is really son of Rhaegar, his claim should be supported by someone significant, reliable, someone who knew Rhaegar well, and who can vouch that fAegon is who he claims to be.

Based on those 7 key points, their unease towards Jon Con is caused by understanding of their situation - on this stage of Great Invasion of Blackfyres, success of their entire mission, depends solely on Jon Con. Their plan will be working as it should be, only as long as Jon Con is staying inside his pink bubble of happiness, believing that, even though he was unable to save Rhaegar, now he is redeeming himself, by helping Rhaegar's son to return to 7K, and retrieve Throne of his ancestors. Though they are aware, that if one day Jon Con will suddenly see the light, and realise that he was fooled, then he will unmask fAegon, he will tell everyone that the prince is fake. Then they will have to pack their things, say good buy to Westeros, and go back to Essos. This time for good. Because there won't be a seventh time.

It's kind of ironic, that after five failed Rebellions, Blackfyres will finally succeed with their Sixth, only for a Zombie Apocalypse to begin shortly after their victory.

I have to agree with everything here other than perhaps how likely is that someone can prove that Aegon is fake to Jon Con.  I guess he could overhear Illyrio and Varys or something but that would be utterly careless on their part.  Also, he has bonded with this young lad as if he were his son.  Yes, he would be very angry if he found out there was a deception but, since I am convinced Aegon himself believes to be the real thing he won't turn against the boy.  He could be removed by the Golden Company or even Illyrio or Varys before he could speak out but I think, overall he is too bonded with Aegon to expose him...

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I have to agree with everything here other than perhaps how likely is that someone can prove that Aegon is fake to Jon Con.  I guess he could overhear Illyrio and Varys or something but that would be utterly careless on their part.  Also, he has bonded with this young lad as if he were his son.  Yes, he would be very angry if he found out there was a deception but, since I am convinced Aegon himself believes to be the real thing he won't turn against the boy.  He could be removed by the Golden Company or even Illyrio or Varys before he could speak out but I think, overall he is too bonded with Aegon to expose him...

I think that JonCon will realise it on his own. Or eventually he will start suspecting, that something is going on, because of GC's suspicious behavior. Especially if Illyrio/Varys/GC will be adamant, that fAegon needs to marry with Daenerys Targaryen, to solidify his claim of Iron Throne. The thing is, if he is really son of Crown Prince Rhaegar, then there's no need for him to strengthen his claim, by marrying into Targaryen family.

[Morgana Lannister]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that JonCon will realise it on his own. Or eventually he will start suspecting, that something is going on, because of GC's suspicious behavior. Especially if Illyrio/Varys/GC will be adamant, that fAegon needs to marry with Daenerys Targaryen, to solidify his claim of Iron Throne. The thing is, if he is really son of Crown Prince Rhaegar, then there's no need for him to strengthen his claim, by marrying into Targaryen family.

Good point but I think it all depends on how Westeros takes him.  At present probably anyone is better than Cersei, real or not, so the people and a lot of the Lords may support him regardless but if he starts making mistakes or something, questions are likely to be asked so I think, yes his legitimacy may be question and they need Dany because, if for whatever reason, she took to oppose him and move onto Westeros her warfare is far stronger (especially with the dragons).  I reckon is more of a case that Dany wouldn't need him that much unless he is "deemed" the real deal by the people and they want to present a united Targaryen front.  However, if he eventually gets proven fake that could weaken her claim too (if they were married).

Personally I think what will happen is that with Dany now gone missing plus her lack of urgency in coming to Westeros and Arienne on the way to Aegon, in fact basically there, she will become his Queen.  I don't know exactly what is going to go wrong but I get a hitch that something will for Aegon after quite a good victory.  Also Tommen and Myrcella are prophesied to die and I think their arcs are somewhat link with Dorne and Aegon, although I could be on tinfoil territory here  Personally, I would like Cersei to be at least indirectly responsible, although I am being a hypocrite in that I hate moralistic tales and if this were the case then it could be argue that GRRM is preaching not to believe in prophecy or something but going on a tangent yet again.

As for the Golden Company yes, Jon Con is not stupid and he is likely to see through the blood connection (assuming I am right and he is a Blackfyre).  Trouble with Jon Con is that his life is coming to and end and he knows it and he may act more rashly than he might have done otherwise.  Of the top of my head when he said to Tyrion that he was no night (or something to that ilk) he make very little attempt at concealing his skills as one, so who knows.  Actually although this plot or Dorne have never been my favourites, out of being around here in the forums is growing on me and I am now very curious to see how it progresses... 

[Morgana Lannister]

On 2/12/2018 at 0:03 PM, bent branch said:

Agreed. Barristan's story thus far has absolutely nothing to say about Aegon's story thus far, either for against him being fake. We know from ADWD that Barristan has no special knowledge as to potential Targaryen heirs. He went to Dany because that was all he knew to do.

Where Barristan's story will begin to have some bearing on Aegon's story is when the two groups begin to become aware of one another. One element of this that I think is often overlooked is that Barry and JonCon actually know each other, not just know of each other. That will add some interest.

Actually, that is a topic that I don't think has ever been brought up before, what characters in the story know each other although we, the readers have never seen them interact. Another of these sets is Aurane Waters and Salladhor Saan.

I agree about the interest in the plot picking up when Dany's team hear about Aegon's team and vice-versa, which with her or without her lol it's imminent.  In fact Tyrion already knows and I take that to be common knowledge.  Now, Tyrion and Barry will interact in the next chapter of either of them in Winds.  Tyrion has just handed them over the Second Sons, they cannot....  Now, I expect some reluctance on Selmy's part to accept Tyrion, never mind confide in him but I think things will soften up eventually.  Tyrion has met Aegon, Barry has met Danny...in relatively close quarters both.  At first I was convinced Barristan was going to get the chop early in the book to make room for Tyrion as advisor or something but I thing there is yet hope for him.  Their interaction and intel exchange could be fascinating (not just re Aegon but the Shavepate and all the rest lol) but they will need to work together (Tyrion and Barristan).  Now, she is not supposed to "meet Tyrion" (i.e. re-appear, since I can't see him going anywhere far anytime soon) until the later part of the book so I reckon Selmy is safe until then.  Yes, it creates two points of view in one location and I know that George is trying to narrow them down but they could be very different views on the same events.  Hopefully, between the two of them they get some plan together that moves the plot back to Westeros lol