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AlaskanSandman

Part 1. The Blacks and the Greens

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A Dance of Dragons and Wolves

Part 1. The Blacks.

So here we’ll start working through the connection between the two in recent times since Aegon I and how it affected the Dance of Dragons who made up the Blacks, the Loss of Dragons, and the rebirth of Dragons. Also an outside of the box analysis of Harrenhal and Daenerys and Jon Snow. Leading up to Rhaegar’s son Aegon and Varys. Ending with a look at who Varys may actually be. This will be covered in multiple parts.

So this is part 1. The Blacks.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VIII

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.

The Flaming man and the Wolf Dancing.

 

Let’s start where it all begins, with King Ronnel Arryn and Rhaenyra Targaryen/Stark.

 

Spoiler

 

Ronnel Arryn is given a daughter of Torhen Stark as a bride and the two possibly have a daughter. No son as the rule passes to a cousin Hubert Arryn. Ronnel serves as lord until his death during the Reign of Aenys I.

 

Hubert Arryn wed a Lady Royce and had six sons. Hubert was a cousin or Ronnel so likely of the same age or at least of the same generation on the family tree. So Huberts son may have wed Ronnel's daughter.  

 

Rodrik Arryn eventually weds Daella Targaryen, daughter to Jaehaerys and Alysanne Targaryen. They produce a daughter, Aemma Arryn.

 

Aemma Arryn weds Kind Viserys I Targaryen, and the two have one daughter, Rhaenyra Targaryen. Descended of House Stark and Targaryen. Who fought her brother Aegon II in the Dance of the Dragons and who’s children by Daemon Targaryen the Rogue Prince would inherit the throne and be the death of Dragons. We’ll come back to Rhaenyra and Daemon.

 

Torrhen Stark                                     Sharra====Lord Arryn                     Arryn

            I                                                              I                                                I

I-----------------------------I                              I-----------------I                                   I

Son                          Lady Stark ==== Ronnel Arryn   Jonos     Lady Royce=== Hubert Arryn

                                                      I                                                                       I

                                                  Daughter ============================Son 

                                                                                 I

                                                                                 I  

                                                                                 I

                                        Daela========Rodrik Arryn

                                                        I

        Viserys I ==========Aemma Arryn

                                I 

                         Rhaenyra=====Daemon

                                           I

                                 Aegon III the Dragon Bane

 

 

 

Queen Alysanne and Brandon the Daughterless or a bastard son of his in 61/62Ac. 30 years before the succession crisis of 92 Ac and 2nd known quarrel of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who’s first quarrel was her cheating. The second was passing over her bastard children.

 

Spoiler

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wall, the king grew tired. He sent his grandchildren away when the tale was done and fell into a sleep from which he never awoke. He had ruled for six-and-twenty years, reigning over the most prosperous era in the history of the Seven Kingdoms but seeding within it the disastrous decline of his house and the death of the last of the dragons.

 

Jaehaerys I –Great Great grandsire

Baelon- Great grandsire.

Viserys- grandsire telling the story. Important as it show’s Viserys was aware of some of the truth as Viserys chose Rhaenyra despite people pushing for Aegon II. Viserys knew something, or maybe didn’t know and they did.

Aegon II- dad

Jaehaera-

 

So firstly we’re told that Jaehaerys and Alysanne fought at the Wall. Yet what battle did they fight? And When? In 92Ac is when, and against Bael the Bard, King Beyond the Wall.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

So Bael lived in the time of Jaehaerys I as Jaehaerys is the King who made the King’s Road. The Starks are also lords.

The only thing to counter this, is the claims of House Bolton flaying, yet, who really is gonna trust House Bolton? Have fun with that.

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

Some maesters say it was some other Brandon, not the Builder, but it's still Brandon's Gift. Thousands of years later, Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on her dragon Silverwing, and she thought the Night's Watch was so brave that she had the Old King double the size of their lands, to fifty leagues. So that was the New Gift." He waved a hand. "Here. All this."

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"No one has. The last dragons died a hundred years ago or more. But this was before that."

"Queen Alysanne, you say?"

"Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate."

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the queen's jewels and built by the men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats.

Deep Lake and Snow Gate likely renamed after the war on the wall.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I

For forty-six years, the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for the most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.

Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys—the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon—in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman...and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time, but the Old King outlived his beloved queen, and in his last years it was said that the grief of their parting hung over his court like a pall.

Prince Aemon was safe as Heir, but Rhaenys born in 74ac was passed over. So something was not ok with Rhaenys or the mother of Rhaenys, Jocelyn Baratheon.

The succession crisis was in 92 Ac, so let’s looks for a marker of when it started.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

 

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

So the battle at the wall was 30 years after Bael skipped down Jaehaerys’ King’s Road, with a succession crisis happening in 92 Ac. So more than likely, we’re searching for babies born in either 61 or 62Ac .  There are three.

 

Aemon Taragaryen, heir to Jaehaerys I in 62Ac

Jocelyn Baratheon raised by Alyssa Velaryon, mother of Alysanne, born in 61Ac.

And Gael the Winter Child born in 62Ac.

 

Now we know that Aemon is safe as  Jaehaerys names him as heir, but Rhaenys, the Queen who Never was isn’t and is passed over in 92Ac. So Jocelyn is likely one of the children born to Alysanne in 62Ac. We’ll come back to Jocelynn.

 

Gael the Winter Child is the other child born in 62ac, possibly twins born at Queen’s Crown.  Gael the Winter child doesn’t’ die till 99Ac and is got with child by a Traveling unknown singer.  The where abouts of her child are unknown to history.

 

Daemon was born in 81 Ac when Gael was 19 and raised by his aunt, Gael’s sister Alyssa, a daughter of Queen Alysanne. Was thought safe behind Viserys I, but when Viserys named his daughter heir, the faith protested, then when Daemon returned from Essos, the faith protested against Daemon.

 

Now Jocelyn and Aemon have Rhaenys the Queen who never was. Rhaenys then goes on to marry Colrys Velaryon.  The two go on to have  Laena and Laenor Velaryon who would go on to wed our girl Rhaenyra Targaryen and the bad ass Daemon the Rogue Prince.  Laena and Laenor, like Daemon and Rhaenyra, have Stark blood in them.

 

Daemon and Laena have two children who are wed off into House Hightower and House Velaryon. Daemon is part Stark though through Gael so no big deal here.

 

Rhaenyra and Laenor supposedly have Jaecaerys, Lucerys and Joffery.  All with Stark blood.

 

Further, Laenor supposedly goes on to have Addam of Hull/Velaryon. Who is the only other person other than Howland to visit the God’s Eye and the Green Men.  Making me greatly wonder about the pact between House Velaryon and the Merling King.

 

                                                      I---------------------------------------- I

          Bael============Stark Maid                                      Lord Snow===Alysanne

                                 I                                                                                         I Southern Lady

                                 I                                                               I---------------------------I

                          Lord Snow/Stark                                 Jocelyn Baratheon      Gael the Winterchild.

                     Raised by Uncle Stark                      Raised by a diff fam.       Raised by Uncle Jaehaerys.

                       Born in the crypts                                            Born at Queens Crown Tower.

                    Fights father 30 yr later.

 

                                                               Jocelynn====Aemon

                                                                                 I

                         Gael=======Singer               Rhaenys ==== Corly Velaryon

                                         I                                                 I

                                          I                            I----------------------------I

                                     Daemon=======Laena                       Laenor======Rhaenyra

                                                        I                                                            I

                                           I-----------------I                                     I-------------I---------------I

                                      Baela             Rhaena                     Jaecaerys   Lucerys     Joffery 

 

                         Rhaenyra=====Daemon

                                              I

                                 Aegon III the Dragon Bane

 

                                                          

Now many of the people we have talked about make up the Black faction of the Dance of the Dragons.

  • Rhaenys
  • Laena
  •  Laenor
  •  Daemon
  •  Rhaenrya
  •  Jaecaerys
  •  Lucerys
  •  Jofferys
  • Addam of Hull.

All on the side of Rhaenyra against her half-brother Aegon III, and all of Stark Blood.

 

Now the death nail was when Rhaenyra Targaryen and Daemon the Rogue Prince eventually wed and have two sons, Aegon III and Viserys II.  Aegon III being known as the Dragon Bane and bringing the death of Dragons. As he is Stark by blood on both sides, mother and father. The Dance of Dragons ending with House Stark taking over the Throne by blood and marriage.

 

So the big ultimate assumptions made by me?

Spoiler

 

1. The child of Ronnel Arryn and Lady Stark wed Hubert Arryn's son, and their child is Rodrik Arryn. Based on time line and space in family tree. Which then leads to Rhaenyra, who’s children with Daemon ended the dragons.

2. Queen Alysanne cheated and Queen’s Crown is a clue. Crowning is a birthing term. The Queen Crowning could thus be this and the cause of her and Jaehaerys first quarrel.

3. The possible children of Alysanne.  Jocelynn Baratheon and Gael the Winter child based on possible birth dates and intrigue surrounding them and their children. Jocelynn’s children of course is known and is Rhaenys the Queen who never was.

4. That the missing child of Gael the Winter Child, is Daemon Targaryen the Rogue Prince. Based on his age and intrigue around him.

By intrigues I mean deaths, and or being passed over or protested against.

So this this is a look at the Black faction of the Dance of Dragons and how they were made up of Stark blood.

 

If you enjoyed this look at the event’s back then and curious to see where this all leads check out part 2. For the return of Dragons and a look at Dany the lone Wolf.

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150240-part-2-dragons-and-starks/

 

Edit- Just to show the Greens for fun.

 

Spoiler

 

Rhaella Targaryen (daughter of Aegon- son of Aenys I)

As she was the younger of the two girls, Rhaella was sent to Oldtown as a ward of House Hightower, while her twin sister and mother remained at King's Landing. When her mother learned that her brother, Prince Jaehaerys, had announced his claim to the Iron Throne, she fled King's Landing on Dreamfyre to join Jaehaerys's cause, taking Aerea and the Valyrian steel sword Blackfyre with her. An enraged Maegor sent a rider to Oldtown, commanding Lord Hightower to behead Rhaella as punishment for Rhaena's betrayal. However, Lord Hightower refused and instead imprisoned the messenger.[1]

 

So 

      Manfred==?

                   I

        I-------------I

  Morgan      Martyn==?       Visenya====Aegon=====Rhaenys

   I                       I                      I                                 I

    I                     I                      I                                 I

    I                 Ceryse==Maegor                   Aenys I======Alyssa Velaryon

    I                                                                                  I                                                            I-----------------I

                                   I---------------I-----------------I------------------I    Torhen Stark   Sharra=Arryn          Arryn=?

    I                           Rhaena===Aegon        Jaehaerys====Alysanne        I                   I                              I

  ?                                I                                         I                           Lady Stark ==== Ronnel   Royce=== Hubert 

     Hightower====Rhaella                           I-----------I-----------I                               I                               I

                           I     42ac-?                      Alyssa= Baelon      I                           Daughter========Son

                           I                                                I                      I                                      I                               

     ?======Otto Hightower                                I                  Daela========Rodrik Arryn

             I            75ac* -?                                     I                                      I

        Alicent=========================Viserys==========Aemma Arryn

         88-133ac                   I                                                   I 

                                  Aegon II                                        Rhaenyra=====Daemon 

                                  107-131ac                                                          I

                                                                                               I---------------------I

                                                                                         Aegon III              Viserys II

                                                                                               (House Targaryen)

 

Martyn Hightower was Lord of the Hightower and head of House Hightower during the reign of King Maegor I Targaryen. He was the father of Ceryse Hightower.[1]

* Otto at least born by 75ac to be 13 and old enough to father Alicent.

  • Aegon II
  • Alicent Hightower
  • Helaena
  • Aemond 
  • Daeron
  • Jaehaerys 
  • Jaehaera
  • Maelor
  • Ottor Hightower

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
Edit under Hubert Arryn to show Lady Royce

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@Ran Ive made a few assumptions here based on information in the books. Is there anything you can add, subtract, or correct in some of this as you may have seen some notes on the family tree's that your allowed to share. Certain assumptions regarding the possible child of Ronnel, or that child marrying Hubert, or their child being Rodrik Arryn based on the lack of room in the tree. 

Or anything else to do with Gael, Jocelyn, or Daemon. Gael's possible child or just anything. Even if it's just to destroy the theory hahah just trying to double check what i can and no one else has really thrown this out that i've seen, so i havn't much to contrast or parallel with. Was Queen Alysanne a good girl you think?

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For any one reading this or interested in what may or may not be happening with Jaehaerys. This is a collection of all the quotes i could find about him arranged in apparent order with a time line given afterwards. 

Any one with any thoughts on what may have been happening back then or how this impacts the greater story, i am greatly curious thoughts. 

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

In 48 AC, Septon Moon and Ser Joffrey Doggett—also known as the Red Dog of the Hills—led the Poor Fellows against the king, and Riverrun stood with them. When Lord Daemon Velaryon, the admiral of the king's fleets, turned against Maegor as well, many of the great houses joined with him. Maegor's tyrannical reign could no longer be borne, and the realm rose up to end it. Unifying them all was the claim put forward by the young Prince Jaehaerys—Aenys and Alyssa's only remaining son, now all of fourteen years of age—and supported by the Lord of Storm's End whom Jaehaerys had named as Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. When Queen Rhaena—whom Maegor had married after Aegon's death—learned of her brother's proclamation, she fled on her dragon, Dreamfyre, stealing Blackfyre away as her king and husband slept. Even two of the Kingsguard abandoned Maegor, joining Jaehaerys instead.

Jaehaerys came to the throne in 48 AC, in a time when the realm had been torn asunder by the ambitions of rebellious lords, the fury of the High Septon, and the cruelty of his uncle, Maegor I. Crowned at four-and-ten by the High Septon with his father's own crown, he began his reign under the regency of his mother, the Dowager Queen Alyssa, and the guidance of Lord Robar of House Baratheon, Lord Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King in those early years. Once in his majority, the king wed his sister Alysanne, and theirs was a fruitful marriage.

. Against this, you have Septon Barth, the blacksmith's son the Old King plucked from the Red Keep's library, who gave the realm forty years of peace and plenty."

When Septon Barth passed away in his sleep in 99 AC,

 

Barth became hand in 59Ac. 

Yet if Alysanne was Jaehaerys's great love, his greatest friend was Septon Barth. No man of humble birth ever rose so high as the plainspoken but brilliant septon. He was the son of a common blacksmith and had been given to the Faith while young. But his brilliance made itself known, and in time he came to serve in the library at the Red Keep, tending the king's books and records. There King Jaehaerys became acquainted with him, and soon named him Hand of the King. Many lords of great lineage looked askance at this—and the High Septon and Most Devout were said to be even more concerned over questions of his orthodoxy—but Barth more than proved himself.

With Barth's aid and advice, King Jaehaerys did more to reform the realm than any other king who lived before or after. Where his grandsire, King Aegon, had left the laws of the Seven Kingdoms to the vagaries of local tradition and custom, Jaehaerys created the first unified code, so that from the North to the Dornish Marches, the realm shared a single rule of law. Great works to improve King's Landing were also implemented—drains and sewers and wells, especially, for Barth believed that fresh water and the flushing away of offal and waste were important to a city's health. Furthermore, the Conciliator began the construction of the great network of roads that would one day join King's Landing to the Reach, the stormlands, the westerlands, the riverlands, and even the North—understanding that to knit together the realm it must be easier to travel among its regions. The kingsroad was the greatest of these roads, reaching hundreds of leagues to Castle Black and the Wall.

 

Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

 

There were dragons here two hundred years ago, Sam found himself thinking, as he watched the cage making a slow descent. They would just have flown to the top of the Wall. Queen Alysanne had visited Castle Black on her dragon, and Jaehaerys, her king, had come after her on his own. Could Silverwing have left an egg behind?

Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words.

. The holdfast has a golden crown, see?" He pointed across the lake. You could see patches of flaking gold paint up around the crenellations. "Queen Alysanne slept there, so they painted the merlons gold in her honor."

Good Queen Alysanne visited the Wall on her dragon Silverwing, and she thought the Night's Watch was so brave that she had the Old King double the size of their lands, to fifty leagues.

"The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Good Queen Alysanne, they called her later. One of the castles on the Wall was named for her as well. Queensgate. Before her visit they called it Snowgate."

It was at her behest that King Jaehaerys at last forbade the right of the First Night, despite the many lords who jealously guarded it. And the Night's Watch came to rename the castle of Snowgate in her honor, dubbing it Queensgate instead. They did this in thanks for the treasure in jewels she gave them to pay for the construction of a new castle, Deep Lake, to replace the huge and ruinously costly Nightfort, and for her role in winning them the New Gift that bolstered their flagging strength.

, until the reign of King Jaehaerys and Good Queen Alysanne, the ancient law of the first night had prevailed on Dragonstone, as it did throughout Westeros, whereby it was the right of a lord to bed any maiden in his domain upon her wedding night.

 

 

Quote

 

: Viserys I

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wallthe king grew tired. He sent his grandchildren away when the tale was done and fell into a sleep from which he never awoke.

 

 

Jaehaerys I –Great Great grandsire and his Queen Alysanne. 

Baelon- Great grandsire.

Viserys- grandsire telling the story. Important as it show’s Viserys was aware of some of the truth as Viserys chose Rhaenyra despite people pushing for Aegon II. Viserys knew something, or maybe didn’t know and they did.

Aegon II- dad

Jaehaera-

 

Quote

 

Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys—the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon—in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman...and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time, but the Old King outlived his beloved queen, and in his last years it was said that the grief of their parting hung over his court like a pall.

Given to the Faith, Maegelle grew to be a septa known for her compassion and her gift for healing. She was the chief cause of the reconciliation of the Old King and Queen Alysanne in 94 AC, following the Second Quarrel. She nursed children afflicted with greyscale, but she became afflicted with the same illness and died in 96 AC.

The great tourney held at King's Landing in 98 AC to celebrate the fiftieth year of King Jaehaerys's reign surely gladdened the queen's heart as well, for all her surviving children, grandchildren, and her great-granddaughter returned to share in the feasts and celebrations.

Simple-minded but sweet, Gael was most beloved of the queen. She disappeared from court in 99 AC, allegedly dying of a summer fever, but in fact she had drowned herself in the Blackwater after having been seduced and abandoned by a traveling singer, leaving her with nothing but a growing belly.

*In her grief, Queen Alysanne followed her to the grave less than a year afterward.

 

Septon Barth passed away in his sleep in 99 AC, When Septon Barth passed away in his sleep in 99 AC,. Baelon followed him as Hand less than a year after, and served admirably. But while hunting in 101 AC, Prince Baelon complained of a stitch in his side, and died within days of a burst belly.

Ill fate had left Jaehaerys lacking a clear heir not once but twice, following the death of Baelon the Brave in 101 AC. To resolve the matter of his heir once and for all, Jaehaerys called the first Great Council in the year 101 AC, to put the matter before the lords of the realm. And from all corners of the realm the lords came. No castle could hold so many save for Harrenhal, so it was there that they gathered. The lords, great and small, came with their trains of bannermen, knights, squires, grooms, and servants. And behind them came yet more—the camp followers and washerwomen, the hawkers and smiths and carters. Thousands of tents sprang up over the moons, until the castle town of Harrenton was accounted the fourth largest city of the Realm.

At this council, nine lesser claimants were heard and dismissed, leaving only two primary claimants to the throne: Laenor Velaryon, son of Princess Rhaenys—who was the eldest daughter of Jaehaerys's eldest son, Aemon—and Prince Viserys, eldest son of Baelon the Brave and Princess Alyssa. Each had their merits, for primogeniture favored Laenor, while proximity favored Viserys, who was also the last Targaryen prince to ride Balerion before the dragon's death in 94 AC. Laenor himself had recently acquired a dragon, a splendid creature that he named Seasmoke. But for many lords of the realm, what mattered most was that the male line take precedence over the female line—not to mention that Viserys was a prince of four-and-twenty while Laenor was just a boy of seven.

Later still, it was said that the Starks were bitter at the Old King and Queen Alysanne for having forced them to carve away the New Gift and give it the Night's Watch; this may be one reason for why Lord Ellard Stark sided with Corlys Velaryon and Princess Rhaenys at the Great Council of 101 AC.

In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendents.

His fame, his reputation, and his wealth did much to support his son Laenor's claim. Boremund Baratheon also supported Laenor's claim, as did Lord Ellard Stark. So, too, did Lord Blackwood, Lord Bar Emmon, and Lord Celtigar. But they were too few. The tide was against them, and though the maesters who counted the results never gave numbers, it was rumored that the Great Council had voted twenty to one in favor of Prince Viserys. The king, not present for final deliberations, named Viserys the Prince of Dragonstone.

In his last years, King Jaehaerys named Ser Otto Hightower as his Hand, and Ser Otto brought his family to King's Landing with him. Among them was young Alicent—a clever girl of fifteen years, who became Jaehaerys's companion in his age. She read to him, fetched his meals, and even helped to bathe and dress him. It is said that, at times, the king thought her to be one of his own daughters. Unkinder rumors claimed that she was his lover.

In his last years, King Jaehaerys named Ser Otto Hightower as his Hand, and Ser Otto brought his family to King's Landing with him. Among them was young Alicent—a clever girl of fifteen years, who became Jaehaerys's companion in his age. She read to him, fetched his meals, and even helped to bathe and dress him. It is said that, at times, the king thought her to be one of his own daughters. Unkinder rumors claimed that she was his lover.

King Jaehaerys, the First of His Name—known as the Conciliator, and the Old King (being the only Targaryen ruler who lived to such an advanced age)—died peacefully in his bed in 103 AC, while Lady Alicent read to him from his friend Barth's Unnatural History. He was nine-and-sixty at his death, and had ruled wisely and well for five-and-fifty years. Westeros mourned, and it was claimed that even in Dorne men wept and women tore their garments in lament for a king who had been so just and good. His ashes were interred with that of his beloved, the Good Queen Alysanne, beneath the Red Keep. And the realm never saw their like again.

In 105 AC, her mother finally delivered the son that the king and queen had both longed for, but the queen died in childbirth, and the boy—named Baelon—only survived her by a day. By this time, Viserys I was heartily sick of being hectored over the succession, and disregarding the precedents of 92 AC and the Great Council of 101 AC, he officially declared that Rhaenyra was Princess of Dragonstone and his heir. A grand ceremony was arranged in which hundreds of lords knelt to do homage to the princess while she sat at her father's feet. Prince Daemon was not among them.

“On no account can Prince Daemon be allowed to ascend to the Iron Throne,” the Hand wrote his brother, Lord of Oldtown. “He would be a second Maegor the Cruel, or worse.” It was Ser Otto’s wish (then) that Princess Rhaenyra succeed her father. “Better the Realm’s Delight than Lord Flea Bottom,” he wrote. Nor was he alone in his opinion. Yet his party faced a formidable hurdle. If the precedent set by the Great Council of 101 was followed, a male claimant must prevail over a female. In the absence of a trueborn son, the king’s brother would come before the king’s daughter, as Baelon had come before Rhaenys in 92 AC.

As for the king’s own views, all the chronicles agree that King Viserys hated dissension. Though far from blind to his brother’s flaws, he cherished his memories of the free-spirited, adventurous boy that Daemon had been. His daughter was his life’s great joy, he oft said, but a brother is a brother. Time and time again he strove to make peace between Prince Daemon and Ser Otto, but the enmity between the two men roiled endlessly beneath the false smiles they wore at court. When pressed upon the matter, King Viserys would only say that he was certain his queen would soon present him with a son. And in 105 AC, he announced to the court and small council that Queen Aemma was once again with child.

 

Once his mourning had run its course, the king moved swiftly to resolve the long-simmering issue of the succession. Disregarding the precedents set by King Jaehaerys in 92 and the Great Council in 101, King Viserys I declared his daughter Rhaenyra to be his rightful heir, and named her Princess of Dragonstone. In a lavish ceremony at King’s Landing, hundreds of lords did obeisance to Rhaenyra as she sat at her father’s feet at the base of the Iron Throne, swearing to honor and defend her right of succession.

In 105 AC, her mother finally delivered the son that the king and queen had both longed for, but the queen died in childbirth, and the boy—named Baelon—only survived her by a day. By this time, Viserys I was heartily sick of being hectored over the succession, and disregarding the precedents of 92 AC and the Great Council of 101 AC, he officially declared that Rhaenyra was Princess of Dragonstone and his heir. A grand ceremony was arranged in which hundreds of lords knelt to do homage to the princess while she sat at her father's feet. Prince Daemon was not among them.

 

Thus did matters stand in King’s Landing late in the year 105 AC, when Queen Aemma was brought to bed in Maegor’s Holdfast, and died whilst giving birth to the son that Viserys Targaryen had desired for so long. The boy (named Baelon, after the king’s father) survived her only by a day, leaving king and court bereft … save perhaps for Prince Daemon, who was observed in a brothel on the Street of Silk, making drunken japes with his highborn cronies about the “heir for a day.” When word of this got back to the king (legend says that it was the whore sitting in Daemon’s lap who informed on him, but evidence suggests it was actually one of his drinking companions, a captain in the gold cloaks eager for advancement), Viserys became livid. His Grace had finally had a surfeit of this ungrateful brother and his ambitions.

 

 

 

48ac- Jaehaerys becomes King Supported by his mother Alyssa Arryn and step father Robar Baratheon (parents of Jocelyn Baratheon 61Ac who later wed Jaehaerys son Aemon and have Rhaenys.)

 

59Ac- Septon Barth made hand of the King.

60ac- Kingsroad began?

61/62ac- King’s Road finished

                 Jaehaerys and Alysanne come to Winterfell

                Alysanne visits Castle Black and Queen’s crown.

               Jaehaerys visits Castle Black after Alysanne.

               Barth finds documents at Castle Black.

              1st quarrel of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Early in marriage.

               Bael skips down the Kingsroad and plucks Stark Maid.

 

61ac- Birth of Jocelyn Baratheon?

           Birth of Aemon Targaryen, heir to Jaehearys? His child with Jocelyn is passed over in 92ac, 30 years later.

62ac- Birth of Gael the Winter child?

             

90-92ac- Late in his reign, Jaehaerys and Barth heal wounds with Faith.

92ac- War at the Wall 30 years later between Barth and Son Lord Stark.

          Jaehaerys and Alysanne fight at wall against wildlins, mammoths, and giants.

         Viserys 15 on Balerion and Rhaenys 18 on Maelys fight at wall too? (Viserys tells the tale to his grandkids.)??

         Death of Aemon the Heir to Jaehaerys.

         Baelon chosen over brother Aemon’s daughter Rhaenys.

        2nd quarrel of Jaehaerys and Alysanne over Rhaenys passed over.

 

94ac- Jaehaerys and Alysanne reconciled by daughter Maegelle of the faith.

 

99ac- Septon Barth dies in his sleep

           Gael the winter child is drowned in the Blackwater bay. Gael was left with an unknown child that disappears.

 

99-100ac- Alysanne dies within a year of Gael due to grief over Gael’s death.

 

101ac- Baelon Heir to Jaehaerys dies.

101ac- Council of 101ac- Viserys son of Baelon chosen over Laenor, son of Rhaenys.

 

103Ac- Jaehaerys dies, Viserys I becomes King.

 

105ac- Viserys choses Rhaenyra as heir despite council of 101ac.

         

 

King Viserys tells of Alysanne and Jaehaerys fighting at the wall. One of their quarrel's was over Rhaenys, child of Jocelynn Baratheon. Then Alysanne dies of grief after Gael the Winter Child. This is why i have pin pointed these two children as possible bastards of Alysanne through events of 61/62ac, that played out 30 years later in 92ac. All centering around Bael the Bard and his war at the wall. 

This is something completely neglected from the World of Ice and Fire but clearly hinted at in the Main Series of Asoiaf. 

The apparent out come of these events led to a succession crisis in House Targaryen that would eventually lead to the Dance of Dragons.

When Alysanne and Jaehaerys visit Winterfell they bring half the court with them suggesting they possibly stayed half a year at least as Aerys had done when he moved court to Casterly Rock. This leaves quite a bit of time for Alysanne to get into trouble.

 

The only event to possibly happen during the reign of Jaehaerys and Alysanne at the wall would be Bael the Bard who skipped down Jaehaerys' kingsroad. 

In the subsequent years we see a succession crisis arise with some weird pass overs happening with Rhaenys and her child Laenor. Then there is Rhaenyra who is made heir by Viserys who makes the quote above about Jaehaerys fighting at the all. Against the council of 101ac or ruling of 92ac. 

This brings attention to Rhaenys and Rhaenyra. 
Alysanne also dies within a year of Gael the Winter Child, who is drowned mysteriously having possibly leaving behind a child that goes missing. 

Alysanne also had her second quarrel over passing over Rhaenys. 

Something about Rhaenys or her mother Jocelyn and Gael the Winter Child are special to Alysanne. Why?

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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It looks like you've put a lot of effort into this and it does look an interesting subject, but I have a problem getting started.

On 2/4/2018 at 0:56 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Let’s start where it all begins, with King Ronnel Arryn and Rhaenyra Targaryen/Stark.

 

Jonnel Arryn is given a daughter of Torhen Stark as a bride and the two possibly have a daughter. No son as the rule passes to a cousin Hubert Arryn. Ronnel serves as lord until his death during the Reign of Aenys I.

 

Hubert Arryn wed a Lady Royce and had six sons. Hubert was a cousin or Ronnel so likely of the same age or at least of the same generation on the family tree. So Huberts son may have wed Ronnel's daughter.  

I presume Jonnel is a typo and should be Ronnel? My issue is with whether these two bolded, italicised parts are pure assumptions or if there is something that actually hints they may be likely? Is the rest of what you have written like that? If there is nothing to back them up I feel this may be too wildly speculative to interest me given the precise detail involved.

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30 minutes ago, Makk said:

It looks like you've put a lot of effort into this and it does look an interesting subject, but I have a problem getting started.

I presume Jonnel is a typo and should be Ronnel? My issue is with whether these two bolded, italicised parts are pure assumptions or if there is something that actually hints they may be likely? Is the rest of what you have written like that? If there is nothing to back them up I feel this may be too wildly speculative to interest me given the precise detail involved.

Yes that's a typo. 

And how is that wildly speculative?

Ronnel and Hubert were cousins. That's fact, not assumption. Ronnel married lady stark daughter of Torhen early in his reign, but didn't die till the reign of Aenys. That's not assumption.- Fact 

Ronnel is murdered and the throne passes to his cousin Hubert who married a lady Royce and had six sons, that would be the same generation as any child by Ronnel. This is fact

Assumption- The ruling Arryn son after Hubert possibly wed the child of Ronnel to solidify his rule as many kings do. Very small leap of logic. Very small. 

Assumption- this child born out of these two would be Rodrik Arryn. Not a hard leap since there is not enough room in the time line or family tree for another Arryn King generation. Small leap of logic.

Rodrik married Daella and had Aemma Arryn- Fact

Aemma Arryn wed Viserys I Targaryen and had Rhaenyra Targaryen, Leader of the Black faction during the dance of Dragons and son win's the throne as Aegon III the Dragon Bane. - Fact.

The reason for Rheanyra being passed over is possibly explained by those two minor assumptions and would explain alot about the Dance of Dragons.

I guess im missing the part that is "wildly speculative" in that part.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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31 minutes ago, Makk said:

It looks like you've put a lot of effort into this and it does look an interesting subject, but I have a problem getting started.

I presume Jonnel is a typo and should be Ronnel? My issue is with whether these two bolded, italicised parts are pure assumptions or if there is something that actually hints they may be likely? Is the rest of what you have written like that? If there is nothing to back them up I feel this may be too wildly speculative to interest me given the precise detail involved.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wallthe king grew tired. He sent his grandchildren away when the tale was done and fell into a sleep from which he never awoke.

 

 

Jaehaerys I –Great Great grandsire and his Queen Alysanne. 

Baelon- Great grandsire.

Viserys- grandsire telling the story. Important as it show’s Viserys was aware of some of the truth as Viserys chose Rhaenyra despite people pushing for Aegon II. Viserys knew something, or maybe didn’t know and they did.

Aegon II- dad

Jaehaera-

 

This is not some thing i made up

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On 2/6/2018 at 6:28 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court.

Trying to figure this out, as it could be literal dragons, or metaphorical dragons (Targaryen's). I come to this of the known information of people left alive by 62ac or having been born by then.

Rhaena 23ac- ?   Dreamfyre

Aerea  42ac- ?

Rhaella 42ac- ?

Jaehaerys I 34ac-103ac Vermithor

Alysanne 36-99/100ac  Silverwing

----------------------------------------------------------Children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne

-Rip Aegon 50/59               Died young

Alyssa 51/60- ?

Aemon 52/61-92ac

Baelon 53/64-101ac

Daella 54/66-82ac  Died birthing Aemma Arryn.

Arryn 55/76- ?

--Vaegon 56/77- ? Maester  (The Dragonless)

--Maegelle 57/78-96ac   Septa

-Rip Valerion 58/79- ?  Died Young

Viserra 59/80- ? Died after engagment

-Rip Gaemon 60/81- ?  Died Young

--Saera 61/82- ?  Septa (ran to Essos)

----------------------------

Gael the Winter Child  62/83-99ac           Only child not possibly born by 62ac, 30 years before the succession crisis of 92ac. (Span of time from Bael plucking Maid to war with son of that Maid.) Which does help to pinpoint Gael as a possible child born to Alysanne at Queen's Crown. Hence her being the Winter Child, possibly. :) 

Baelerion the Black dread. - Known to be alive, but supposedly unclaimed after Maegor till Viserys I. before dying of old age in 94ac. 

 

So i can account for 4 dragons for sure in the year 62 ac. 

I can also figure 6 dragons (Targaryen children of Jaehaerys) to possibly be there as they didn't die young or werent given to the Faith or Maesters. 

 

All age calculations are from the wiki which bases them off Jaehaerys and Alysanne wedding in 50Ac. So each child's earliest dating is based off that. 

 

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wallthe king grew tired. He sent his grandchildren away when the tale was done and fell into a sleep from which he never awoke.

 

 

 

Jaehaerys I –Great Great grandsire and his Queen Alysanne. 

Baelon- Great grandsire.

Viserys- grandsire telling the story. Important as it show’s Viserys was aware of some of the truth as Viserys chose Rhaenyra despite people pushing for Aegon II. Viserys knew something, or maybe didn’t know and they did.

Aegon II- dad

Jaehaera-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to who was fighting with Jaehaerys and Alysanne in 92ac at the wall, idk. Only person i can guess for sure is Viserys I as he's telling the story to his grand-kids and he's old enough to have been 15 at the time.

 

Edit- As there are only 6 children who survive infancy and aren't given to the faith or Maester, that leaves 6 children likely to have had and ridden dragon's. Though Vaegon being called the dragonless makes me wonder about Maegelle and Saera having dragons. Though Saera ran to Essos to open a brothal and you'd think we'd hear about her and her dragon out there. Though maybe it's something Grrm wants to drop later. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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TL/DR
Start off with one concept, and let people reply. Putting it all out at once does not let people absorb the whole of it, especially if there is one part in the foundation that is only speculation.  

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On 2/3/2018 at 11:56 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

4. That the missing child of Gael the Winter Child, is Daemon Targaryen the Rogue Prince. Based on his age and intrigue around him.

 

Would Daemon's birth not have been very public at court? He was fourth in line to the throne at the time I think.

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2 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Would Daemon's birth not have been very public at court? He was fourth in line to the throne at the time I think.

Well Daemon and Jocelyn are the more i guess "wildly speculative" sides of this theory, as i think the possible lineage of Rhaenyra is pretty easy and logical.

To answer your question first then explain Jocelyn.

Daemon is claimed to be the child of Alyssa and Baelon. Alyssa is one of Alysanne's children and wouldn't be a hard reach to hide Daemon among their children, but behind Viserys (This will come into play in a moment). Daemon though, possibly being the only mysterious person in the text that "Could Possibly" be Gael the Winter Child's missing child, if said child survived. Gael being so important to Alysanne that Alysanne died with in a year of her due to grief. Dispite numerous other deaths of her children. (Gael is easier to pin as Alysanne's secret child as she's the only one born at right time and name even calls attention.). 

Now when Viserys is naming his heir, the faith is upset at him naming Rhaenyra against the council of 101ac. Which is interesting since Viserys tells the story to his grand kids about Alysanne and Jaehaerys fighting at the wall. Now Daemon returns from Essos supposedly because he feels he's rightfully next in line for the throne, which based on council of 101ac. He is. Yet the faith still flips out, likening him to Maegor even though he's nothing like Maegor. And the hand writes his brother in a move i presume to block him. Luckily Viserys has a son and the issue is able to be put to rest, but a close call for the faith. Especially if he is Gael's secret child and part Stark. Daemon born in 88ac while Gael's possibly born in 62ac and doesn't die till 99ac. That fits the right time frame and we're not told when she is got with child, just that she was. So Alyssa raising  her sister Gael's child as her own wouldn't be a stretch as far as keeping it a family secret. Alynn of Hull's parentage was questioned and this was in the same time, so it is possible to have a known child of dubious parentage.

Jocelynn is a little different. It's either her or her child Rhaenys that is the reason for Rhaenys being passed over. The most common belief is that its due to something with House Velaryon. Yet we're given no reason why that might be. Where as Jocelyn being a child of Alysanne born to some Northerner around 61ac would make sense and leave enough time for Jocelyn to be 13/14 for Rhaenys' birth in 74ac. 

Jocelyn is the said child of Alyssa Velaryon, mother of Alysanne and Robar Baratheon. Alyssa Velaryon was born in 7ac. This means by 61ac, Alyssa would be 54 years old at the time, and not like to birth more children. Though not impossible. Alyssa hiding her daughter Alysanne's child as her own isn't a big stretch either and just more of the family keeping the secret internalized. 

These are the suspects as i can figure them based on these reasons. The suspicion of Rhaenys being passed over and the suspicion of Gael's child having survived and the Mysterious Daemon and his part fitting this role. 

This is only  part of this theory, the part that deals with Alysanne and her children and decent, which would be Jocelynn, Rhaenys, Laena, and Laenor and their children by Daemon and Rhaenyra. Then also Gael and her child Daemon, who later wed Laena, his cousin. 

The other part of this theory is the line of Rhaenyra through Ronnel Arryn and Lady Stark. Rhaenrya being the main head of this theory as even with out the actions of Alysanne possibly having hidden children at Queen's Crown (Crowning is birthing symbolism), Rhaenyra's decent still leads to Aegon III the Dragon Bane taking the throne after the Dance and House Targaryen no longer able to hatch dragons. 

 

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3 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

Would Daemon's birth not have been very public at court? He was fourth in line to the throne at the time I think.

Daemon was 2nd in line to the throne by the verdict of 101ac untill the birth of Aegon III to Alicent Hightower. Pushing Daemon to 2nd.

So the Faith should be happy about him coming back, cause then they can get rid of Rhaenyra. 

Viserys and Daemon's younger brother is presumed to have died early as a child or something as he isn't mentioned in a Rogue Prince or any where's else.

If Jocelyn  and Gael are Alysannes through cheating, (and an explanation of their first quarrel) then the only possible explanation for every one's actions other than Rhaenyra's is the Pact between House Velaryon and The Merling King for their driftwood throne (probably Weirwood). 

This seems more vague and reaching then Alysanne having cheated. 

I have no idea who the Merling King is. Nothing to go on either. Other than he possibly predates the Andals? Cant say for sure there either. The Merling may have been a ship, and the king a salt king. Idk.

These are different kind of clues than say stuff for Dany where some are visions, some are quotes, etc. These are dates and only a couple mentionings of these characters. It's a small list of clues to go on and or arrange. I think i have everything said about Jaehaerys in this thread including everything about Alysanne. I've also given all known dating and every clue i could find. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

TL/DR
Start off with one concept, and let people reply. Putting it all out at once does not let people absorb the whole of it, especially if there is one part in the foundation that is only speculation.  

Like maybe just start with Rhaenyra and the easier part and leave open Alysanne? I am admittedly having a problem conveying this and totally open to any and all constructive thoughts. 

I tried before to tackle Alysanne cheating and though it's peaked interest, it hasn't drawn much contribution. Which again may just be a fault of mine.

I tried to list what specific couple pieces were speculation. Like Hubert's son marrying his cousin Ronnel's daughter. (I assume it's a daughter as a son wouldve ruled instead of the cousin Hubert).

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Well, we are on the second page and aside from you, there are only three replies. There is just too much to read in your posts, and go back and quote. Especially for a little detail that although is nothing but speculation, the entire theory hinges on it. 

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2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:


Well, we are on the second page and aside from you, there are only three replies. There is just too much to read in your posts, and go back and quote. Especially for a little detail that although is nothing but speculation, the entire theory hinges on it. 

Well i tend to over explain my self as your constantly challenged on here to provide all the quotes and explain everything. But then they dont like it too long. 

Well yes and no. This all was kicked off by the quote about Viserys telling his grand kids about how Jaehaerys and Alysanne were fighting giants, mammoths and wildlings on the wall. As with any theory, there is bound to be speculation. Even the R+L=J theory has speculation. Dealing with something farther back in the past too, im bound to have to face even more due to lack of written information. 

This has speculation yes, but doesn't hinge on those speculations but rather hinges on the quote and just trying to piece together why based on the clues at hand. This is my best guess at why. 

If some one else has a better reason as to why they are fighting at the wall and how maybe the succession crisis of 92ac and their 2nd quarrel are tied, im all ears to suggestions. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Like maybe just start with Rhaenyra and the easier part and leave open Alysanne? I am admittedly having a problem conveying this and totally open to any and all constructive thoughts. 

I tried before to tackle Alysanne cheating and though it's peaked interest, it hasn't drawn much contribution. Which again may just be a fault of mine.

I tried to list what specific couple pieces were speculation. Like Hubert's son marrying his cousin Ronnel's daughter. (I assume it's a daughter as a son wouldve ruled instead of the cousin Hubert).

A daughter of Ronnel would normally also have ruled before a cousin. I understand that the situation for house Arryn was quite unusual at this time but after his brother Jonos was defeated, if there was still issue of Ronnel alive they would have been given the Vale.

So Hubert wouldn't be Lord Arryn...

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1 hour ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

A daughter of Ronnel would normally also have ruled before a cousin. I understand that the situation for house Arryn was quite unusual at this time but after his brother Jonos was defeated, if there was still issue of Ronnel alive they would have been given the Vale.

So Hubert wouldn't be Lord Arryn...

Where is the precedence for female rule in House Arryn? Ronnel's mother was acting regent i thought

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sharra_Arryn

Edit- If you look at Sharra's page, you'll see the same tree i have above. Just mine has a son of Hubert marrying said issue of Ronnel. 

Any son of Ronnel would have became lord. Any daughter would not have. At best she would have been Queen Regent if she already had a son of her own that just needed to come of age.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well i tend to over explain my self as your constantly challenged on here to provide all the quotes and explain everything. But then they dont like it too long. 

Well yes and no. This all was kicked off by the quote about Viserys telling his grand kids about how Jaehaerys and Alysanne were fighting giants, mammoths and wildlings on the wall. As with any theory, there is bound to be speculation. Even the R+L=J theory has speculation. Dealing with something farther back in the past too, im bound to have to face even more due to lack of written information. 

This has speculation yes, but doesn't hinge on those speculations but rather hinges on the quote and just trying to piece together why based on the clues at hand. This is my best guess at why. 

If some one else has a better reason as to why they are fighting at the wall and how maybe the succession crisis of 92ac and their 2nd quarrel are tied, im all ears to suggestions. 

It isn't about reasons. You have one bit of speculation. Speculation is just that. Once you start making entire theories based on speculation, things go off the rails very quickly. Try keeping your posts to one single piece of speculation and go from there. There is no need for grand unifying theories. At least until the series is fully published  

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4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It isn't about reasons. You have one bit of speculation. Speculation is just that. Once you start making entire theories based on speculation, things go off the rails very quickly. Try keeping your posts to one single piece of speculation and go from there. There is no need for grand unifying theories. At least until the series is fully published  

What would be the point in that? Then it wouldn't be a theory. 

And the quote about Viserys telling that story isn't speculation. That's a quote straight from the book with no other possible interpretation. 

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3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What would be the point in that? Then it wouldn't be a theory. 

And the quote about Viserys telling that story isn't speculation. That's a quote straight from the book with no other possible interpretation. 

The point is that rather than speculating about one thing, you speculate about 5

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48 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The point is that rather than speculating about one thing, you speculate about 5

Well what do you speculate about Jaehaerys and Alysanne fighting at the wall with Dragons against Mammoths, Giants, and Wildlings?

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